Hope this is in the right section but im have some problems, please ear with me if i dont explain right but ill try my best. I have a 2002 Kubota KX41-2S with 1200 hours on it. About 2 weeks ago i was doing some digging when i noticed the boom dipper arm would not come in or out on its own, but would come in and out only if i was doing 2 controls ( like slew left or curl the bucket etc) Also one of the tracks was traking when i tried to move the dipper arm on its own. After 2 minutes or so the machine came right. I checked hydraulic fluid and it was grand and the valve chest ect seem dry and no syashed hose's or leaks. Yesterday 4 weeks later it happened again only worse.......... the dipper arm wouldnt go in or out on its own and the boom arm wouldnt go in or out on its own, but when worked together it was grand. Also if i tracked backwoards(away from the blade its grand) but when i went to track foward (towards the blade) the levers felt very stiff and hard to push like something was blocking them. Again after a few mins it worked grand. But this problem has me worried. Anyone ever have a similar problem, father is a mechanic. I found an online manual with the hydraulic setup as i take it is that. Going to change the hydraulic oil and filter, see if it helps but im only stabbing in the dark at this. Any help would be great and sorry for the long post.
Can't see it being a hydraulic oil issue, if most of the time the machine runs fine and the oil level is within the recomended levels. Does the engine strain when the said issues occur? Could indicate a blockage/loose debris (maybe from the valve block itself) is blocking the valve from opening or restricitng flow. I would suggest next time it happens if possible lift up the floor and expose the valve block to see what is/isn't moving!! The problem may be obvious or easier to diagnose (the only time I have had a similar issue is when the tracking levers wouldn't let the tracks fully counter rotate but would track forward and backwards as normal - this was down to seizing in the bottom of the track levers so all that was needed was a bit of grease and persuassion!! this was on a KX41-3 by the way) Looking forward to hearing the result of any findings.
Engine doesnt strain when this happens. Ive lifted the floorl off when this appened and everything was ok. Could be dirt in the hydraulic system im really not sure. I thought maybe a solinoid if it has any but for the track leavers to both go stiff only in one directo has me baffled unless there is two pumps or something that works half the controls. Its very annoying cause its a great little machine which i love working.
If the 41-2 runs 3 gear pumps then yes it is likely that each track gets its own pump feed but if the stiffness is only in one direction then I can't see how that would hint at the problem being the pumps. It maybe the servo controls and their oil feed causing the problem - could they be loosing pressure/leaking hence making movements of the controls hard or slow when operating more than one function?
The hydraulics are dry, no leaks anywhere. I dont know how many pumps thay have to be honest, but a friend had a jcb 801.4 and it was ''parilised'' down one side and he replaced the hydraulic pumps (3 in total) twice in one year. Later to realise it was a '' like cap, 2 of them on the pumps. Hard to explain they were like a cap with a little chain on a valve maybe. Worked the digger yesterday with no problems at all, oe thing i never touched was the fast tracking pedal ?.............. found these diagrams http://www.messicks.com/Kubota/KX41-2S-SERIES.aspx which are detailed. Will change the fluid and filters and try see if there is valves that might stich as looking at the valvechest everything is worked on levers. Its a mind boggler that i have to solve. Buying a kx-008 next week. I will take some pics of the hydralics ect as it all seems perfect. I can video ot either just it only happens the odd time
So do I take it that your friends 801.4 had caps/valves on the pumps which somehow closed causing a similar issue? Its the stiffness which makes no sense because lets say that one of your pumps is intermitantly failing then your hydraulics would fail to work e.t.c but you should still be able to move the levers e.g you can push the track levers forward and back easily with the engine off - when there is no hydraulic oil flowing!! I have no idea whats up!! Good luck!! You'll love the KX008 as well, get some pics up when you get a chance.
going to clean the tank and the valve chest incase of dirt. Have a Hinowa but the kx008 is replacing it. Was told when a digger is used much it can get air in the hydraulics and cause it but i dont believe it. I'll find the problem eventually
Have you ever changed the hyd oil filter on this machine? I would go with the assumption that you have a foriegn body in the main spool block. Be it a tiny bit of metal, or rubber, cant see it being dirt unless you have recently had a pipe replaced or added oil. You say everything appears dry, so hopefully no oil leaking out one would hope no dirt is getting in. I favour a foriegn body sticking a spool as operation of another service at the same time seems to ease the problem ( if I have understood correctly ) this would suggest ( with my very limited understanding of spools ) that although a spool is not getting its full travel to align perfectly with the gallery required, activating another valve is letting oil threw from a different gallery. BUT I could be talking out my rearend. I cant see any other way that a machine can operate perfectly for a few hours, days or even weeks then have a problem on a different service. My machine had a gear selection problem before I even got my hands on it. Susequently a valve block was replaced. I then twice had a spool stick. First time I could not get my quick hitch to release, 2nd time a month or so later I could not select low range. BOTH times a tiny piece of swarf was found in the respective spool. No metal particles have shown up in subsequent filter changes. on edit, been and reread your first post. I would strip the valve block! BUT I am not recommending you do this without some proffessional advice. I am sure Atcoequip and one or two other proper spanner jugglers will have some much better input.
AtlasRob.......thanks very much for the input. Machine has 1200hrs on it. Fluid was changed in the motors an serviced but hydraulic oil was never changed and the hydraulic filter was never changed. Looking at the diagram there is 2 hydraulic filters, so i will get the 2 filters and change the fluid. Your suggestion on the valvechest to be taken out is probly the best option but i will change the fluid and filters and do it again after a few hours just to try flush it out. Hoses have never been replaced on the machine. I will take the filters out on monday, one is in the tank judging by the diagram and the other is somewhere close. I will take a few photo's too and post them up. Thank you for you advice, much appriciated
Dont rush to change the oil, check what the spec is and get it sampled first. Its probably due at 2000hrs which could give you another years service depending on how much you use it. Of course on that machine its probably not too expensive, on my duck I am looking at several hundred pounds and £80 a time ( 500hrs) for the filter. Once you have the filters changed open the old one up to see what they reveal. Literally cut them open and unfold them carefully. Another owner op with a 14t exc had the service dept out as he felt the machine was down on power and pumps seemed noisey. ( within warranty) Engineer checked the machine over, pressures etc, tweeked the pumps and left. Almost 2wks later the slew jammed solid while on a batter. When the pipes were removed from the slew motor the ends were jammed solid with rubber as the pipes were laminating from the inside IF the mechanic had taken notice of the ops fears about the pumps he could have pulled the tank filter and probably found unusual amounts of rubber :beatsme The good thing was it was taken away and a lot of pipes replaced under warranty.
Well we have a 2 45 gallon drums of hydraulic fluid, its just the filters. How does the rubber get inside ? is it the hose's or bad quality hoses. I will cut the filter up and post up pics. Machine isnt down on power anyway. Cant wait to check the bloody filter now.
The Kubota KX41-2/3 requires hydraulic oil and filter changes at 1000 hours along with engine coolant changes and other things such as the usual oil and filters plus the reduction gear oil. The return line filter should also be changed at every 500 hours especially if you run a breaker on the machine.
Machine is piped but was never used. I ordered a hydraulic return filter and a suction filter. I take it the suction is in the tank and return is in the return line to the tank somewhere
Yep the return line is on the tank which on the 41-3 is under the seat on the left whether it is the same on the 41-2 is up to you to find out!!!! If you want a full breakdown of the service/maintenance requirements for the 41-3 to help guide you for your 41-2 then just let me know.
Yes that would be great
Can only find one hydraulic filter, in the tank. I thought there was 2. I stripped the seat out and rear aswell in search of a second filter and cant find one. I ordered the filter and will have it tomorrow along with a air filter and other bits. Crowd i ordered from said there is only one hydraulic filter on the machine and its in the tank. I will take pics of the filter tomorrow when i take it out and cut it open
You may just have a return filter then (not sure if this is also the case on the 41-3!!) These return filters are pretty expensive so the less of them the better!!
Actually there is 2 filters, one is in the bottom of the tank and the other is mid way, i was looking outside for the 2nd one. Showed someone the diagram and they pointed out that its in the bottom of the tank. Also found a filter kit for 49 euro, will ring tomorrow and see if it covers the air filter, dsl filter and 2 hydraulic filters. If it does ill do the lot on it and that will be it done for a while
Sounds like a good price there - I know the return filter alone is about £70.00 from my dealer.
I dont think these are genuine filters, baldwin filters i think.
New filters are better than old filters whether they are genuine or not!!
Update Finally drained the hydraulic oil. Oil was black and there was dirt in the bottom with little pieces of rubber, and some water. Definately the origional fluid from new. The return filter was origional too as it was stamped 12/1999, must of been lying for a few years. The suction filter was a bit dirty too. But its a gauge filter like really fine mesh. Was told it is possible to clean it and re-use it, so i have it soaking in degreaser and will turn the power washer on it and see how it go's. Wont have the filters for 3 days. Have new fluid comming too. Going to get 2 return filters also and change them again after 100 hrs or so. Was also thinking, i have 25 gallons of hydraulic fluid from a jcb that was serviced after 100 hrs from new and the fluid is perfect. So i was thinking of using some of it to flush the hydraulic system out. Would this be ok to do ? Also here is a few photo's i took. Only a camera phone. Also on the return filter is it easy to take the black plastic off the filter or will the new one come with it ? Will cut the filter open and take a photo, when i get the new ones. oil... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/AntoModded/diggers/kx41-2 hydraulics/3.jpg Filters... 1... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/AntoModded/diggers/kx41-2 hydraulics/1.jpg 2... 3... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/AntoModded/diggers/kx41-2 hydraulics/4.jpg 4... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/AntoModded/diggers/kx41-2 hydraulics/5.jpg 5... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/AntoModded/diggers/kx41-2 hydraulics/6.jpg 6... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/AntoModded/diggers/kx41-2 hydraulics/7.jpg 7... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/AntoModded/diggers/kx41-2 hydraulics/8.jpg
If the filter has really fine mesh will a pressure washer damage/misshape the filter e.t.c? Best to check that the oil from the JCB is the same stuff as the kubota uses, if so then using it to flush through the system shouldn't be an issue providing it is clean.
Part of me says, yes throw the JCB fluid through it for a few hours if the spec's are the same it wont do any harm!!! then I think to myself WHY was the JCB oil changed at 100hrs? I know my machine had the filter changed at 50hrs as the factory fits an extra fine one to catch anything missed during the build which I would suspect is the norm for most manufacturers. IF you are confident that the oil is good then as stated provided the specification is correct then you cant do any harm IMO. But I do stand to be slapped by a proffessional
The fluid was changed as it was a new machine, and at 100hrs they changed everything as they said they do on all new machines and they said the fluid was perfect but they have to change it. What is the recommended fluid, i thought the only difference was the the number as i was told years ago the number is the boiling point of the fluid ? I want to put the right fluid in, pointless getting filters etc and not using the right spec fluid. Over here they through you out anything but there is a oil company not far away where i buy grease from and they do different spec hydraulic fluids, so i will get 2 5 gallon drums and maybe flush the system, then do filters and proper fluid, then 100 hrs or so do new fluid and filters again. I dont think i will get it completely clean to solve the probem, but in time changing filters i hope the bits of rubber will work there way towards the filters. I dont want to go stripping the valve chest if it can be avoided. I was also told it could be the spoolvalve's, but was told if it was it would happen when its cold and would only effect on control movement. But for now, i flush it and then do 2 hydraulic fluid and oil changes over the next 100 hrs and see from there how it go's Found a site and it recommends iso 32 or iso 46. Jcb fluid i have is iso 32. iso 46 has a higher boiling point
The problem with a hyd system is not all the oil goes back to the tank all the time. ( If I understand the system properly ) When you use a breaker oil flows through it and back to tank, but when digging a lot of the oil goes back and forth within its limits, for example closing a ram will send some surplus oil back to tank but when you open it again it naturally fills with the oil that was displaced and is in the pipework so that oil shunts back and forth. As a result to flush a system properly you have to split a lot of pipes :Banghead. By all means run the machine for a few hours maybe 50 or a hundred but do not be too alarmed if you still have a problem. I will be very happy for you if it does work its way through but you might yet have to pull a spool or two.
What you said there makes perfect sence, i might disconnect the hose's to help clean the system. Thanks for that, nice to have other opinions as it covers things i wouldnt think off
IF you go down this road, do it methodically and 1 pipe at a time with a helper. I would envisage the arm / boom / bucket stetched out as far as possible and on the ground. Release any pressure by having the ignition on, deadman down and wiggle the levers, you should see the machine relax. Now pick a hose and release it very carefully as close to a ram as possible. Think about what that hose serves and which way the oil will come, no good holding the pipe in a bucket and the oil comming out the ram and hitting you in the ear Spliting at the ram will give you the longest run of pipe each time. BE VERY CAREFUL ! The machine only needs to be on tickover, then gently tap the lever the way required, you will get a good shot of oil, do not hold the lever, just tap it gently. Be prepared to turn the machine off in a hurry, you might not get the exact result you expect if you tap the wrong lever the wrong way DONT FORGET TO CHECK YOUR HYD OIL TANK LEVEL.!!
I believe the process that AtlasRob was refering to is hydraulic regeneration where the pressure coming from one ram is sent to another ram to speed up cycle times e.t.c. E.G Imagine you slew round and then lower the boom whilst extending the dipper. As you lower the boom the oil returning from the bottom of the boom ram is under pressure (due to the weight of the boom, dipper, bucket and load in the bucket pushing down) and therefore moves quickly and relatively powerfully so it is may be sent to the dipper ram to top up the hydraulic flow from the pump to extend the dipper arm. Would you need to replace any washer/seals on the hoses that you remove as they may be brittle/worn?
Well the hose connections have little rubber o rings in them i think, i could use white plumbing tape too. I will work on draining it tomorrow and will have the filters on tuesday all going well. Im nearly sure its just little O rings in the hose's, if so i can them for free.
Nooo, don't use thread sealant or tape, it won't work and will just make a mess. It sounds like your describing Flat Face O-ring Seals (FF o-ring) or otherwise know as O-ring Face Seals (OFS). You need to use the proper o-ring, any hyd hose shop should have them or can get them. If you use an improper size o-ring, it will fail. Can you post a pic of one of the fittings showing the o-ring?
give me 24hrs and ill post a pic up I dont even know if its an o ring in the hose fittings. i will get a pic tomorrow i am weary of breacking the seals i hose connections. I will update this thread with pics tomorrow evening( its 1.09 am monday now)
No problem mate. We'll do what we can to help you with your issues.
Time stood still .......................... I think you are worrying too much about the seals. As Atcoequip states NO PTFE or any other type of tape. From your description I expect you have what I know as metric fittings, they have a small o ring, just back from the end. Undo a nut a good couple of turns then if the fitting is still tight give it a tap on one side then the other with a rubber hammer or mallet which will release the joint. Then undo the thread the rest of the way. Doing it this way rather than removing the nut completely and then tapping it gives you control of the pipe should it still be under pressure. Dont worry too much about regeneration and transfer of pressure from one ram to the other, all I was trying to achieve was that once you have a pipe off, you, CHECK then DOUBLE CHECK, BEFORE you turn the key or touch a lever :drinkup
Ok, all done. Just got the filters today. Have pics on the phone but ive lost the cable to the stupid thing. The oil was manky and was very dirty. New oil is in and a new oil guage as the other one was faded. Worked the digger for 1hr and it seems grand. Going to work it all day tomorrow, clearing bushes and stuff for free for a school which helps disabled. So i should have a good idea tomorrow but i do think it will take some time another filter and oil change. Although there was a lot of dirt and cleaned out the tank. Ive still to cut open the old filter to see what its like inside. Old fluid was really bad, ill try get the pics up as soon as
Found the cable................ New filter, Old filter http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/AntoModded/diggers/kx41-2 hydraulics/3-1.jpg Filter cleaned ( shop said cause its a fine mesh, clean it good) Got a good bit of dirt from it. Washed it with diesel several times and blew it out with an airline http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/AntoModded/diggers/kx41-2 hydraulics/4-1.jpg Got 2 drums of fluid, allowing for a second change after 20 hrs or so possibly http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/AntoModded/diggers/kx41-2 hydraulics/2-1.jpg Some of the dirt that was in the hydraulic fluid. This was the second container, id say the first full one is manky http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/AntoModded/diggers/kx41-2 hydraulics/5-1.jpg My nice new oil guage http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/AntoModded/diggers/kx41-2 hydraulics/1-1.jpg And forgot to say.....Thanks for all the advice and feedback people. Much appriciated. Thanks
Great result, fingers crossed. At least you know you have only done good by doing what you have. It will be a lot easier next time, and part of your normal maintenance regime ( and a few other peoples also ) :drinkup
Nice work - have you managed to source a manual yet?
i found a parts manual, slightly diferent hydraulic filter but i is ok, here is what i found........ http://www.messicks.com/Kubota/KX41-2S-SERIES.aspx
Do you still want a breakdown of the service requirements?
If you have it, yes. Would be great.
Here are the service requirements from the Kubota KX41-3s/v operators manual: Every 50 hours: Lubricate/grease the swivel gear - 20 to 30 shots of grease at each 90 degree position of the swing body ( I usually only do 5 shots per position!! ooops!!!!) Check/adjust the track tension - 10-15mm sag between the inner track guides and the rollers Every 200 hours: Grease the pitch bearing - 5 shots of grease at each 90 degree position of the machine body Every 250 hours: Clean the air filter Grease the pivot valve linkage Check/adjust V belt tension Every 500 hours: Change the engine oil and filter Replace the fuel filter Replace the drive unit oil Change the return line filter for the hydraulic tank Drain water from the fuel reservoir Every 1000 hours: Change the hydraulic oil and suction filter Replace the inline filter Replace the air filter element Every 2 years: Change the coolant
Thanks for that. Return filter dor the hydraulic tan at 500 hours is one ive done. Im guessing the las 2 in 1000 hours is the 2 parts of the air filter. Mine is all in one as its not a genuine one but i have 3 spare so ill change evry 500 hrs.
I would go with what your already doing 80 to 120 shots into that every couple of weeks seems to be an awful lot of grease. No, I dont think so. I read it as change the hyd oil and suction filter which will probably be in the tank. Also replace an inline filter. Bare in mind this machine is not exactly the same as yours.
Having just done a service I can say that the suction filter is in the tank and is bolted in there by a big nut, unfortunately the people at the local Kubota dealership did not give me a suction filter, even after I asked for a complete set of filters to do a 2000 hour service. It is a pain to get into the tank and undo the filter, I may have to make up a special tool to remove the suction filter. Another thing is that there is a lot of dust build up behind the sound deading foam material just above the cover for the hyd tank and as you work in there a bit of dust falls into the tank so it is advised to thoroughly clean the dust from behind the foam material. Far as greasing the turntable teeth, it is a pain but that is what the folks at the factory who designed and built this machine say. Personally I would give it 10 shots of grease at every 90 degrees, spin the body for a while in both directions and then give it another 10 at every 90 degrees to distribute the grease evenly. Or another way is to give ten shots at every 45 degrees. A third way is to get a grease gun extension hose and grease the turntable while slewing the machine.
On the machine is 3 greasing nipples, with 3 little pics,s. One is the ram for the offset. Other 2 look like the slewing ring, one is 220 hrs and one is 50 hrs i think. Is it inner and outer slew ring and why the difference in hours, id never pump it to the **** with grease but i would slew it in 4 positions and pump the slewing ring a few times in each.
The 220 hours one must be the same as the pitch bearing which is done at 200 hours on the KX41-3. The 50 hours is as you say the slew ring. As for the difference in hours it must be down to the amount of work each part does - obviously the slew ring is used constantly and the pitch bearing is well sealed/protected under/within the so may not need greasing as much as the slew.
Finally cut the filter open and here is 3 pics http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/AntoModded/diggers/kx41-2 hydraulics/Filtercut1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/AntoModded/diggers/kx41-2 hydraulics/Filtercut2.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/AntoModded/diggers/kx41-2 hydraulics/Filtercut3.jpg
I guess there not meant to look like that!!!! Any mechanics know whether that is the usual amount of debris to be found in a filter??
8 year old filter lol
yeah but not 8000 hours old!!!!
Man, I get freaked out if I see a few metal filings in my filters, that mess would send me over the edge... You are on the right track when you talk about purging as much oil as you can out, and doing another change at 20 hrs.
Ive put up 30hrs so, im going to change the fluid and filters again over christmas. Ive a bit of work for it in the new year, so i will run it to 100 hrs or so next and do the same till im happy. So far the digger is running great since. It doesnt do much anyway, done 340 hours work in 5 years. Usally bigger work we do, but its a great machine. Im a kubota head........love them to bits
Do you own any bigger machines than the 41-2
Cx130, sold it a while back zaxis 110, pc130-6,
Nice, which do you prefer the Hitachi or the Komatsu?
Komatsu has 9k hours and is smooth aand grades excelllant, dipper arm isnt long and isnt short. Runs on air compaired to the hitachi. Hitachi is faster and has 3400 hrs on it. Its 2004 and the komatsu is 1997. Hitachi has a long dipper and not as long a undercarrage. I like the komatsu as i drive it most and never gives trouble for an old machine. People always complain its slow to work but it can keep up with other machines grand. I like the 110, but the komatsu is great. Would love to try a newer model but i suppose there aint much difference
More speed usually means more fuel consumed hence the Komatsu 'running on air' compared to the Hitachi!! The longer the dipper the more actual weight to move and more weight further away from the undercarriage could hinder stability so that may explain why it is harder to grade with the Hitachi. No doubt the newer Komatsu's are faster now and more fuel efficient plus they have a host of onboard diagnostic functions and operating modes.
The 130-6 we have has self diognostics, cause a friend was a fitter and could test the pressure in the hydraulic pump and motors. Said they were down a fracton but probly werent turned up since new. I know very little about that end of them so he may of been spoofing me
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!!!"