Anybody know if its possible to delete the emissions equipment on Kubota skid steers? We just had our new SSV65 delivered today, seems like a really nice machine compared to the POS Cat 236D its replacing, but i'd love to delete all the BS before it kills itself. Engine is a V2607 tier 4 final, i know it for sure has a DPF but i haven't even looked at it hard enough to see if it has EGR. :duh The 236D was a 2 year lease we did, and when we turned it in last week with 500 hours it had already had several DPF related sensors and a wiring harness replaced. Our 236B and JCB 8040zts are both non-emissions engines so it'd be awesome to make the Kubota match.
I'm very interested to what others have to say as I've been very interested in doing this with my two excavators. I did a DPF delete on my 2010 Cummins pickup and it was entirely different truck! So far I haven't been able to find any info on anybody doing this on construction equipment.
Did you buy it or is it a lease? I wouldn't think you can do anything to a leased unit or a machine under warranty for that matter either.
We've got a 2012 Kobelco SK210-9LC with the Fiat-Iveco engine instead of the usual Hino that they traditionally had and it's had all sorts of troubles with the DEF system luckily they were covered by warranty but it was still down for about a month at the dealer's shop. We've looked all over the 'net for delete's but haven't had any success, seems you can find anything for pick-ups, semi's, and ag equipment but nothing for construction equipment. We came across an ad for 'DEF B Gone' a month or two ago and after having a salesman tell me they likely could set us up with a unit we were later told it only works on farm equipment by Taber Diesel in Taber, AB. So it's starting to look a lot like we might be stuck with this environmental **** killing engines and business. http://www.kijiji.ca/v-heavy-equipm...-case-new-holland-john-deere-fendt/1065490706
I have solution for egr dpf and def for most all ag, construction, tractor and auto. pls contact with machine info and i can advise.
We were told recently by Taber Diesel that system won't work on construction equipment.... I had a feeling they were lying because maybe the government is after them about it. Can you send me a pm with your phone number by chance?
How big is the fine if you get caught bypassing the emissions requirements?
In Canada there isn't one for off-highway equipment, On-highway equipment varies from province to province.
Either $27,500 or $37,500 last I checked, can't recall which it was. It doesn't matter who does the work either, if I change the oil on it and don't correct the emissions system before returning it to service they can fine me. I no touchy anything deleted.
Okay- say you have a tier 4 final piece of equipment, lets say skid loader. 5 years from now the electronics and emissions stuff is all haywire, not working, etc. Maybe the wiring harness burns, motor locks up, whatever. I buy it as salvage, pull the def, dpf, or whatever motor, and shove a 4bt cummins in there with a 12v fuel solenoid and a ignition switch, hopefully its pilot hydro controls, and I just make it all manual and ditch the computers. If I'm in California, do the emissions police come after me? For Ruger_556- if you're just changing oil, how are you supposed to know what the emissions system is supposed to look like? How would you know if something is gone? and how would some gov't agency prove that you know its not there?
I don't believe there is a delete kit out or them (yet) We were doing bunch of snow removal a month or so ago with my buddies svl95-2/under 500 hours and could not keep that thing running. Had to disconnect the battery 6 times in one night to to trick the system into thinkin the egr/filter/re-gen issue has been fixed. Once we were done, off to the dealer she went. It amazes me how you get suckered into spending big time bucks into the newest and the greatest but it just doesn't last. This emissions stuff is killing trucks and machines... I'm sure the dealers are happy with all the extra business. Seems like it doesn't matter what the brand, they ALL have issues.
Just curious, what ended up being the issue?
Just curious, what ended up being the issue?
we have egr dpf solution for kubota engines pls message me with machine details
Thank you. Kubota SVL 75
Any delete solutions for a B3350
I wonder if a legal theory could be developed calling this "regulatory taking." Wikipedia: " Regulatory taking is a situation in which a government regulation limits the uses of private property to such a degree that the regulation effectively deprives the property owners of economically reasonable use or value of their property to such an extent that it deprives them of utility or value of that property, even though the regulation does not formally divest them of title to it." Sounds pretty close to the situation. This has been going on 10 years now, they have had time enough to figure it out.
As much as I would like it, I can tell you that the warranty on the engine is nullified if you find a way to delete the DPF.
Interesting question. The problem is that the unit is still useable even if it costs more to use. It isn't the same thing as a zoning regulation on land that prevents any use other than its native state. Now maybe if it could be proved that the underlying statistics that the regulation was built upon could be disproved, such as the statistician in California who put together the arguments of millions dying prematurely due to diesel exhaust soot, then a claim I think could be claimed for the extra cost of purchase and operation. But then again that would take millions of dollars in research that the government and manufacturers would fight against.
"Deprives the property owners of economically reasonable use" is the phrase I was keying in on. When an O/O has one of these trucks that starts being a lemon because an injector tip starts to deform causing soot and dusting cylinders and damaging a catalyst and DPF and clogging EGR and crankcase filters, and this all has to be paid for out of his operating cash flow and bankrupts him. Sounds pretty clear cut to me?
I agree but the government types will tell you that is a warranty problem with the manufacturer who will tell you it is a government problem because of the requirement. Catch 22
I figure it's no different than emissions crap on cars in the 70s. There's a reason no one buys or collects cars from the late 70s and early 80s. They were in the infancy of catalytic converters, unleaded gas, smog pumps, EGRs, fuel injection, PCV, etc. And it didn't work. Cars had much less power, were less reliable, and often got worse fuel economy. By the late 1980s, they had things pretty well figured out. My 1989 F-150 would get 20 mpg and had plenty of power. It had fuel injection that always started. It had OBD1 and a computer that could sort of tell you what was wrong with it. If you follow what has been happening with diesel emissions equipment since it really rolled out in 2003 or so, we've come a long way. Several companies now have Tier 4 Final engines that can pass emissions with no EGR. The SCR and DPF units have gotten much smaller and more reliable. The new units on trucks are half the size they used to be. Now, if we can just reign in the over complicated crap like VGT turbos, multiple turbos, hydraulic engine brakes, auto shift transmissions, etc and get rid of the EGR and EGR cooler, while still meeting emissions, we'll be all set. It will happen. We're just not there yet.
If they are getting stuff figured out they sure are taking their sweet time about it. And if they are able to get rid of those things I haven't seen it. In my industry they say things like: 20 kW get the Isuzu, that one is good. 60 kW the Isuzu is bad, get the Kubota. 80 kW get the Deutz. Who can keep all this straight? They all have different emissions packages but they all have ECMs, injectors with computer trim codes and cooled EGR still.
Cummins and IVECO both have tier 4 final with no EGR.
Cummins can go pound sand since they swallowed up their dealers and cut off all support besides the dealer themselves doing the work. Besides 3.8L is too big for me. Iveco, well, I have only ever seen one, and the dealer of record right now is one of those companies that picks up a dealership for every small manufacturer, who knows whether they can actually fix anything with the Italian engineers.
Sounds like you are never going to be happy. Perhaps you should seek a new line of work. I don't see emission equipment going away.
No I am not going to be happy with this sorry state of affairs, and I am going to keep beating this drum. It doesn't cost me anything to say it and who knows who will read this. All this harms the consumer for questionable benefit based on sketchy data. If LA wants to have Tier 4 stuff let them have it. Those of us here in the mountains did just fine with Tier 2. Now that Tier 4 is here the air is still just as clean as it was before. We have to push back towards freedom sometimes because it is plain to see the other side is pushing against it, and is not going to stop now that Tier 4 is here.
I'm all for cleaner air but we need to find a balance of reliability and clean emissions. I think our biggest obstacle in terms of reliability is EGR. If we can get rid of EGR and clean up the NOx downstream of the turbo instead we'd be in much better shape. With EGR we're just suffocating an engine in its own soot.
I thought of another snappy rejoinder to this discussion. We could solve all this with just dropping one letter. You know how manufacturers still build the same good old stuff for what they term "Less Regulated Countries". Drop the "r" and call it Less Regulated Counties. No need for Tier 4 stuff in my county because LA county has a problem.
BV, Get your self a puter program to delete teir 4. I know of a bloke on the east coast who is doing this and is so flatout. He has done a new ASV RT120 removed everything teir 4 and bumped to 145hp. It now uses less per hour than before so thats gotta be good for environment, right?
You don't really think it's going to stop at Tier 4 Final do you? If I know anything about the government, nothing is really "final". A lot of blame needs to be heaped on the manufacturers. They all knew this stuff was coming. They all act like the rug was pulled out from under them. Companies like Navistar and Cat just couldn't figure it out. Again, like the auto makers in the 1970s. Today, you can get a gas engine with 400hp that loaded with emissions gear. They can go 200,000 miles without even changing the spark plugs. Nobody talks about "deleting" them.
Don't get caught. EPA fines start at $37,500 per system. In this area, dealers won't take trucks on trade if they have been deleted. They can get fined for selling them or even working on them.
So the enviro nazi's realy have got you by the short and curly's then.
I didn't make the rules. But, I also don't have $37,500 to flush down the toilet.
Ok, we have a situation with a Kubota svl 95-2s error codes def sensor (quality of Adblue) and scr sensor (contact your dealer) have drain the def tank twice but still have the same issue what is your solution?.....any help would be appreciated........Ricl
I hav a Case 621F. Do you have a delete? Nothing but problems. 715-613-4045
California will actually sniff the exhaust, if they catch you running dirty $5000 day
I’m seeing a lot of talk about DEF, EGR delete on HEF. Like it or not teir 4 final is here and isn’t going away it’s only going get more stringent from here. Unless the manufacturers nut up and tell the epa to pound sand. And I don’t want to get into a back and forth about how it’s terrible and less efficient than what it use to be.( I don’t like it either and I think EGR on a diesel is ridiculous) but there are things you can do to make it less problematic. 1.) don’t skip regens! 2.) don’t run the def fluid out to the point of engine debate. 3.) put clean and fresh def fluid in. These are some of the most common issues that the teir 4 engines have. I really think that the dealers should have a duty educate owners more about this. And train their mechanics as well. I’ve worked for dealers and I know that they train outsiders more than they train their own techs. I personally don’t have a real problem with teir 4 because I understand it and know how to fix it. Rarely is it ever a product issue or a software issue. It’s mostly operator error.
I would also add that buyers don't educate their employees either. I have owned a Tier 4i skid steer and own two Tier 4 Final skid steers now a CTL and wheeled machine. I put just under 2K hours on the Tier 4i and the machine never saw the inside of a shop. Many seemed to struggle with the DPF machines, I ran mine hard and it responded very well. My current CTL has 1K on it and it has never had an issue. The wheeled DEF machine has 500 hours and I have had zero issues with it either. When I talk with the mechanics there are some machines that have repeated problems, their impression is that at the operator level they are not idling the machine at higher levels in cold weather, continued problems of running out of DEF, and not running the machines hard enough to get them warm. I am close enough in the day to day operations to prevent operations that are detrimental to the machines. I think these issues are why you are seeing a large number of compact machines and backhoe's being released under 75 hp that are do not have DEF and only run DOC. With the high turn over in this industry, and a large majority in some sectors that cant speak English, teaching operators the intricacies of DEF machines appears to quite a challenge.
When I was chasing a rental fleet around our most frequent offender was the Kubota SVL90-2, frequently having DPF issues, and almost every time it was the operators just puttering around on them at low RPM. Of course rental salesmen don't "crash course" rental customers on how to run the machine, it's only when I showed up to fix the problem were they told by me to "run the dog snot out of that engine".
You also don't have the cold weather in Idaho like we do in many parts of Canada I know people that have had DEF lines and tanks freeze even with half a tank of DEF in the system like what's recommended by the stealerships.
Def will freeze it’s something like 90% water. When you shutdown your machine and you hear that pump running. That is the def pump pulling all of the def fluid back into the tank. At the same time it’s also pulling a vacuum to test the system for leaks. The tank has heater lines from the engines cooling system. You can still run your machine with frozen def fluid. So long as you don’t idle it for long periods of time. Like willie59 said. If you are running it hard then your exhaust should be hot enough to do what is called a passive regen and doesn’t require def fluid.
Another quirk I should add. We had a new Morooka dumper with a Cat engine on rent at a job in WV for several months. During that period I had to call a local Cat mechanic to deal with DEF issue. Long story short, after talking to a number of people involved to come to a conclusion I determined that the job site "rules" required all operators to turn equipment battery disconnect switches to the OFF position when they shut down their respective machine. Well, this interrupted the DEF purge cycle mentioned by Paul Council, sent that Cat system into flip out mode on next start up. Machines that have ECU/keyswitch controlled battery disconnects don't have this problem, but on this job site, if the machine has a manual switch battery disconnect it was a problem. Again, have to educate the end user.
Yeah it doesn't always work out this way -40 is -40 things freeze and break those heaters only work when the engine is running these stupid systems are designed for warmer climates not for Northern climates. Hence why so many people are deleting this crap our here. And recently some manufacturers including crapapillar re-released some machines with tier 3 engines.
I got my v3800 deleted...the guys used the dealer program for testing emissions...it turns all the crap off...then they did an egr and cooler delete..but there is no warrenty.
I am 90 miles Yellowstone, believe me I know what cold is. There is no question DEF adds more things to go wrong and life without it is much less complicated, but frozen DEF at -40 is the same froze at -20 or 0 degrees. They are designed to run without using DEF until the DEF is thawed out. The machine cant idle at low rpm for extended periods of time or you will have issues. Unless the laws are different up there I doubt CAT can release tier 3 engines in new machines. Engines made after a certain date have to be Tier compliant. If it were that easy to get around being Tier compliant nobody would be putting Tier 4 Final engines in their machines.
Yes the laws are different here and yes -40 does make a difference from -20. I know several people that have bought new equipment because it was tier 3 and one of them was a brand new Cat 420F backhoe on a powerline crew, another fella I know just got a brand new New Holland C238 CTL with a tier 3 engine. And then last year (2018) we rented a brand new JD180GLC with a tier 3 engine.
Brand new 2018 with tier 3. Got it in November 2017. As far as I know you can no longer get tier 3 as of Jan 1 2019 in Canada unless the dealer has a new one sitting on the lot. One way to know if a Deere backhoe is a tier 3 it has a smaller diameter exhaust pipe and a tier 4.
Brand new 2018 with tier 3. Got it in November 2017. As far as I know you can no longer get tier 3 as of Jan 1 2019 in Canada unless the dealer has a new one sitting on the lot View attachment 190750 View attachment 190750
Its kinda funny I thought you guys were off your rockers saying Tier 3 in brand new machines. Then I looked at a new 420F2 backhoe and the thing looked like it still had a mechanical throttle linkage on the injection pump.
Yeah tier 3 180G John Deere excavator
My 2018 nh c227 is the last of the non tier 4...that is why i bought it...after jan 2019 no more....i will just keep rebuilding everything till i retire....everything i have is 2017 or newer...except dump truck so hopefully i can keep everything running for 10 more years lol....doubt it....but nice dream.
Have an intermittent E 9400 on SVL90-2, machine shut down. Manual says contact dealer immediately. Can't find a diagnostic manual for these codes, spent 56 minutes on phone with Kubota corporate and they couldn't say for sure what manual or if it was even available, another dealer said there is no manual that covers these codes. Is there a DM for these?
That's good to know, as I'm looking at picking one of those up. Any other issues? The SVL90-2 has the v3800 engine, correct? Did you figure this out?
What engine do you have in your machine? I might have a book on it
I had the same code E 9400 on SV:90-2 and the machine shut off. would not turn over (just a click) . after setting for an hour it started up but was it was skipping real bad. able to get it back to the shop yesterday. Tried to start it up today to move it and it would turn over but would not start. So I figured it had to be something with the fuel system so I changed the fuel filter and took the glass filter off and cleaned out all of the parts on it. Started it up and it seems to be running fine now. Used it for 1 hour today with no problem and no codes.