Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum. I've got 2,500 acres of land in West Africa to clear in Jan 2016 for a client. I did land clearance several years back in the same region on a much larger parcel of land (circa. 6,000 acres) using mainly 2 Cat D6's, a Komatsu D65 and a Volvo EC210 excavator with a root rake. Due to various constraints such as the client being cash strapped and renting out part of their fleet for a couple of months, we managed to clear just shy of 2,500 acres in 13 months. I'm looking for a more efficient and swift way of doing things this time around using different machines/methods. I was thinking of chaining/scrub pulling first using 2 Cat D7/D8's and then moving it into piles using the Australian style stick rakes before either burning it in the windrows or excavating several pits across the site and using an air curtain destructor. Any advice/suggestions would be welcome. If anyones interested, I've got plenty of pics from our previous efforts to share.
Yair . . . rodtg. It would be interesting to see some pictures but I think you are on the right track with your thoughts, that is to say . . . chain, push into piles burn and (presuming it is to be agricultural land) a run over with a pin wheel rake and another couple of passes with the pinwheel after the initial discing. Cheers.
Thanks Scrub Puller. I've attached a few images from the last parcel of land we worked on. The general terrain in our neck of the woods is roughly in this sort of range.
That's interesting rodtg . On something like that I wonder if a chemical solution would be cost effective ? Fly it on to kill everything grass / trees . Let it all wilt down & dry out a spell then burn in place . Then bring in equipment to mop up what's left ? Another thread on the subject . HeavyEquipmentForums
Thanks TD25C. The pictures I've shown you are from the dry season. When the land has had a drop of rain, the grass grows quite rapidly and can be taller than a person in certain patches or up to your waist on average. Labour is certainly cheap enough though to do mass spraying (circa US$58 per month for general agricultural labour). We did try a big flail mower behind a large agricultural tractor at one point, but it turned out to be a wasted purchase.
Yair . . . rodtg. Country such as shown in your first three pictures of post #3 can easily be handled with (say) a thirty foot to thirty five foot rake on about a 250hp crawler tractor or large loader . . . I don't believe it would warrant chaining and in fact if the odd larger trees were mustered up you could put a Savannah style plow straight into it with no raking. One point I will make that when raking such country the tractor works back and forth on a face like as though it's plowing, it doesn't ever back up . . . this should be obvious but I watched a tractor raking here the other day and in light country a bit like yours he spent a lot of time in reverse building windrows, very expensive. If the country is for cropping td25c's spray and burn suggestion would work but, for me, chemicals are a last resort. Cheers.
Cheers Scrub Puller. I think this time we'll invest in some decent rakes. The last rake we used was a modified rake for a wheel loader and it hardly served us well. A little bit maddening as this probably cost us around AU$8,000 for very little impact. Yeah, the land will be for cropping when its done, but not with machinery. The project is being funded by some Middle Eastern bank and will be subdivided for local farmers to cultivate their own individual plots of a few hectares manually. The land in this region generally cultivates fairly well. Below is a pic of the ground after using a heavy set of Simba disc harrows once. But yeah, using a big rake on the light land or putting a plow straight into it would save a lot of time and money. Previously the dozers and excavators were really clocking up the hours getting these parts cleared.
Yair . . . Lovely looking piece of dirt rodtg. As you have found that style of rake is completely unsuited to broadscale clearing . . . this is more the style for your application . . . A competent fabricator could build one on site given steel, an oxy set and welder. Cheers.
Cheers Scrub Puller. That looks just the job. As for raking efficiency, what sort of areas have you managed to rake in a day previously?
Yeah rodtg , that's one thing I learned from widows thread . They have plenty of help on foot for manual labor at low cost . This is an interesting topic . Was working for a retired farmer couple weeks ago fixing some grass waterways & cleaning up around the field with dozer . At dinner time I ask him ( farmer is 91 years old ) " when were these fields first cleared ? " He paused for a moment & then went on to say most good farm ground in the area would have been cleared in the mid to late 1800's . Not all in one shot . It was a generational thing . A farmer would start clearing sometime around 1800 and by 1900 his great grand son was farming big but still pulling trees if they thought the ground would produce good . Something like that . Way before any heavy equipment showed up ....... I'm guessing fire was the big clearing tool in that day .
Yair . . . rodtg Crikey mate that has me thinking . . . it's been along time. I seem to remember with D8H's in light going ten acres an hour was common enough. It's easy enough to do a rough calculation . . . just width swept times speed in second gear. Using the method I mentioned when the tractor starts to labour in second it is time to drop the load . . . let the heaps form where they will. The operators have to have the correct mind set . . . if you set most blokes on a rake in a thousand acre paddock they mostly seem to think the mission is to rake the sticks up into heaps, not so. The mission is to create cleared country ready for the plough, the heaps are just an unfortunate by-product of the operation. They need to learn to think like a stick, how it will react and maybe slide off the rake and can be positioned to advantage to be picked up on the return run . . . they need to spot clear country and don't run over it, turn short, it all adds up to acres an hour at the end of the day . . . and in that sort of country the only time they should be in reverse is just for that tractor length when they're backing off a heap. Its an interesting concept you mention of giving/leasing the land back to small scale tenant farmers . . . what are the proposed crops? Cheers.
I was trying to get us a good crop dusting gig . Load the tank with Monsanto products and that grass & bush will be wilting by evening . Ok .... I'll fly the plane if you navigate Scrub .
Yair . . . Gotcha td25c . . . what are we taking Ag Cat or the Cessna? rodtg. Quite a good picture here I thought . . . this is pretty hard dry country with tough brigalow regrowth. I think your African situation would lend it's self admirably to this class of machine with a minimum, of pre-raking required. Cheers.
dang I wanna go but all I got is a ctl w bunch of attachments . but I have a bushhog lol and dump truck . come on lets go
td25c - I doubt we'd manage to find a plane in that neck of the woods and if we did, we'd spend more time trying to get clearance from the govt to do mass scale crop dusting. We did try burning before prior to clearing but in our neck of the woods, wind is very scarce at the best of times and keeping the whole thing going was hard work.
bjs - Sure, head on down to Africa and join in the fun. If anything, the site canteen will have wonderful lunchtime specials.
Scrub Puller - I'm guessing they'll be growing rice, maize, cotton etc on the land. We're just the hired muscle on the project. I tried farming out here once and it ended rather badly having 70% of our 50 acre plot stolen. We cleared that 50 acres manually The new project comprises of raising the level on an existing earth dam, clearing and cultivating 2,500 acres, some concrete lined irrigation channels and a few buildings. This time, we'll definitely keep the dam works in British hands. We had a local guy to do our last 2 earth dams and one burst open as he forgot to build in a core. I was looking more into those rakes until the small hours this morning. Buying something in the range of 30ft wide from someone like Gessner would not be cheap. An 18ft is above AU$21,000 + GST. By the time you went up to 30ft, shipped it all the way to Africa, paid the extortionate port clearance charges and 35% import duty here, I'd probably end up with a bill of AU$50,000-60,000. So it would be much more cost effective to put pen to paper, spend a few thousand $$$ on steel and have a fabricator in for a while (the market rate is AU$200 a month here for someone competent). Armed with all this new knowledge, I can see 2 sizeable dozers managing all this without spending a fortune or taking a lifetime.
Scrub, a question. You talk about piling the brush up into piles whenever the tractor starts to labour. Has anyone ever had a rake built on a slight angle much like operating a grader moldboard and let the sticks pile up into a windrow..?
Yair . . . Gotcha Nige. I believe a few folks have tried and the problem was always keeping the material flowing . . . there is always one stick or log that jams the works. Work has been done on a front mounted heavy duty angled rake I imagine rather like this . . . with powered disks but nothing came of it. I never saw it myself and as with much of this type of development/experimentation it was basically being built in a shed out in the middle of nowhere . . . my gut feeling is the cost and complexity out weighed any advantage. I think things have progressed to the stage where the large laid back rakes (that tend to carry the load) are pretty darn efficient when worked to their potential. The rotaries as pictured are continuing to evolve and I believe some very large versions are being developed in the efforts to create a desert in Brazil As I mentioned up-thread to rodtg the straight rakes are pretty simple to make and to some extent can be designed around available materials. At a couple of hundred bucks a month for a fabricator it would be an economical build . . . he just needs a contact to wander around Homans and Gessners with a smart phone taking some snaps so he can knock up some drawings. Cheers.
Scrub Puller - Thanks a lot for all your pointers. The whole project seems a lot less daunting now.
yes, definitely interested to see the pics........I'd pop down and help with my little D4D but I am allergic to snakes!!! The Challenger looks like it has UK a license plate on it so presumably it was a second-hand purchase......for that project or a previous project?
Richardjw - Yeah, all the heavy equipment (along with most other things) was shipped to West Africa from the UK. When we first went there, you couldn't find much locally. It's much better nowadays. But the first time around, we sent a 40ft container with pretty much everything inside ranging from food and drink, furniture, office supplies, consumables, safety equipment - you name it we shipped it. I'll root through my files and post a selection of pics later on.
I see you managed to get all the "essentials" right in the front of the photo ......
Nige - Indeed, always good to get ones priorities right Anyway, the first batch of pics - all the equipment we shipped over.
Moving onto site on the first day. We didn't have a crane to lift the container off so we had to excavate a pit for the truck to reverse into and use the Volvo to drag it off.
Getting on with land clearance:
First irrigation resevoir:
Are any of the engines in those machine Euro-emissions rated..? Do you have any idea what the sulphur level is in the fuel on site..? Nasty things can happen with high-sulphur fuel in an emissions engine. The D6 in the last photo of post #28 is in need of a new set of GET IMHO.
Second irrigation reservoir:
Nige - All this was back in 2011. The diesel quality was hardly the best in West Africa and the whole project was done on a shoe string budget and I mean shoestring. With limited funds, being so far out in the bush and relying on local mechanics, the maintenance side of things did suffer...
Having had Dark Continet experience myself I can attest to that ......
There's no doubt the Gessner and Homan syle rakes are very good rakes, built to last a lifetime...maybe more than one. The laid back style helps a little with heavy loads, but adds a good deal of complexity to the design and build. We once built a 22 ft drive in rake for a HD16 ,with a much simpler vertical design, for about half the price. Wasn't the prettiest looking thing but very effective none the less. Cheers, Greg
Nige - For the next project, we'll either rent and leave the maintenance up to the hire firm or if we buy, I'll bring over a mechanic or two from somewhere like India/Sri Lanka to better keep on top of things. Queenslander -As long as it does the job, I'm not to bothered how it looks. If one can be built in house as a substantial saving and work, I don't mind if it looks like a UFO.
And last but not least, the bloopers, pics for posterity and various unusual sights from Africa: View attachment 144146
Rod, not sure if you've heard of them or not but this UK based firm apparently do work in Africa http://hawk-international.co.uk/
.............and great pics by the way!
Thanks Richardjw - I'll check out their website and see where abouts they operate in Africa.
Glad you liked them We actually bought a lot of kit for the last project from down your way in Devon from a company in Winkleigh.
OK. Have an idea who that was I spent 19 years living and working in the former soviet countries on Ag. technical & dealer support, loved it and can relate to some of the "local" issues especially in the 1990s when they were beginning to embrace technology.
Yair . . . Queenslander. I would not have thought the laidback design would add that much to the cost? I did a few hours a while on an oldish D6 with a station made knock off of a Homan with a bit more back slope and I was intrigued as to how it lifted and carried. The boys were talking more back-slope and rams to tilt it forward to drop the load . . . as you point out it would add cost, complexity and probably would not justify the trouble. Our old straight up and down jobs worked fine and the back-slope and refining is just icing on a pretty well proven cake. rodtg. We all appreciate the pictures and please keep them and commentary coming if you can spare the time. Cheers.
No worries Scrub Puller . I just found out earlier on that the next project is bigger than expected with another 750 acres now added to it. So pretty glad I've got a better way forward now. My old man loved the Aussie style rakes when I showed him earlier (we work together these days). He loves a good engineering challenge. Back in the late 1980's he project managed quite an unusual and slightly complex fabrication project. So he'll probably enjoy designing and having the rakes and canopies made up.
Is that part of a boat?
It is indeed.
Interesting pics and commentary rodtg! Thanks for sharing and keep it coming.:drinkup I spent some time in Kenya in the mid nineties, it was an experience to say the least.
Yair . . . rodtg. I built and repaired boats and hovercraft in another life and if you blokes can handle that sort of alloy construction then a stick rake is going to be no bother . . . the only thing a bit special will be the Assab or similar for the tines. If specialty steels are a problem I have seen a very satisfactory rake on a D7 that utilised sections of D9g cutting edge welded edgewise . . . new edges too, the farmer bought them cheap at auction. Is there any reasonable sized game left for spit roasts or are little mummut critters and lizards all that's left? Cheers.
CM1995 - No problem at all. Always glad to share my unusual life experiences with those who appreciate it. I have few friends living in Kenya and they love it there despite its random oddities. Scrub Puller - Not much big game to be found in West Africa really. When we built the irrigation reservoirs, we did get the odd crocodile. These days its best to avoid the bush meat in West Africa due to Ebola. Safer to stick to the local supermarkets there if you want to stoke up the BBQ. Well theres no shortage of scrap available in Africa. It's pretty much a dumping ground for the worlds junk machinery, trucks, cars etc. However, it aint cheap. The ports are run by the mafia and clearance charges are extortionate as well as import duty. Rental charges are also steep. If I bought a reasonable old D8H from the US/Europe and sent it there, it would probably pay for itself on my raking job alone. Back in 2011 we were shelling out close on AU$1,300 a day for a D8N that had seen better days.
Yeah rodtg , got that . I would make a phone call to the investor & ask them how fast they want this done ? Time may not be an issue for them . If it is .... Send us a chopper with nurse truck to put a quick kill on the undergrowth & trees . Old school Bell 47 would work fine in that country . It's cost effective as it would all happen pretty quick . Hire it out to a contractor that is equipped for it . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHvoNikBo6U Investors could also take care of any" payoffs" or permits with the ...." Powers at be " . That's just my take on it as I'm not on site . Cool photos & story rodtg .:thumbsup
td25c - how long do you reckon it would take to do something like that and how much chemical would it roughly take to get the job done?
I think this is the closest I'll be able to manage
I would guess it would take a chopper about 5 days to spray 2'500 acres after mobilization . As for cost & volume I would consult with CPS & contractor . They would have the juice & ability to put the hurt on that tall bush fast . Just throwing out ideas Mate . Might be something to look in to ? Pretty common in my area for farmers & utility / power companies to use chemical solutions to solve the problem of unwanted growth . http://www.cpsagu.com/
td25c - I appreciate the thought and being able to do something like that in 5 days would be a dream come true. If it were feasible or not would be the next issue. On our last effort there were settlements within our land and although an agreement had been reached and monies exchanged for these people to re-locate, they never left. We ended up placing an exclusion zone around them and just cleared cultivated around them. There were several of these dotted around the land. Another issue would be getting everyone clear for such an operation. Even though the land was leased to us, there were always people wandering around in the bush and I doubt they'd appreciate a shower of a quick kill herbicide.
Got it rodtg . Yep , if people are still living on site that would be a big issue with my suggestion . Cool picture of the thatched hut home site ! After reading widows thread HeavyEquipmentForums What little research I did on the subject is you are pretty much trying to work with the local population clearing & farming the ground . Have to try to keep everyone happy so to speak . Some residents either don't understand what's happening or don't agree with it . Either way it's best to leave a buffer zone around the home and farm around it . Is that pretty close rod ?
wow great pics ! would love to come out and work on stuff like that but all I have is little ol john deere 333d and dump truck lol nothing like u have and yes the food pics look good also lol . now to see if the pay would be worth it to dodge the crocs and lions and such things lol
Seems to me a roller chopper would reduce the area to be cleared dramatically at a relatively low cost.... HeavyEquipmentForums Maybe modify the wheels of a cat 834? trash compactor? Use that to clear the easy stuff leaving the heavy stuff for the dozers.
td25c, a Bell 47 with Trimble GPS, now I have actually seen everything! rodtg, (sorry about the thread-jack above) you have a remarkable project, please post more pictures, and best wishes to you!
I noticed that as well Jim . Mixing old with new might be a good combination?
Jim D - No worries, glad you liked the pics. td25c - the pics I'm posting here was a private project. A London based company had taken a 99 year lease on 6,000+ acres to grow orchard crops to produce bio-diesel. Before the client went belly up for violating investment laws, we'd cleared around 2,500 acres and planted close on 1,000 acres of trees. The land was leased through a co-operative. The entire community had a stake in the land and depending on several factors, they would all receive a share of the annual lease price which was paid to their leaders. It was hardly plain sailing though. All the settlements on the land were supposed to relocate. The clients offered an additional payment for them to build new 'huts' elsewhere, offered a tractor and trailer to help move their belongings and also offered to clear and plough the new land where they were supposed to go. They took the money for their new huts and pretty much remained in situ. One of our local collaborators wanted to get the army in to evict them, but we refused to look at that option as it could have created bad press. Another nuisance was the distribution of money. The tribal leaders were the beneficiaries of the lease payments and had the job of distributing it. I'm fairly certain a large chunk went in their back pockets as numerous villagers complained of getting no money or only part of it. I think they had put the blame on 'the westerners' saying we hand't paid the full amount. Theft was also another issue. If you've got it, they'll steal it. Once over a 6 week period, we had around 4,000 litres of diesel go missing. As the local police had no vehicles, we had to transport around 80 workers to the local station using tractors and trailers. Sadly, I don't have pics of the occasion. Even our enthusiastic security force couldn't keep a lid on everything.
Scrub Puller - Roughly what size rake would you be able to fit on an old D9 G/H (385 to 410 FWHP)?
Ahh, the oldest third world trick in the book.
CM1995 - I think these guys invented the book
Yair . . . rodtg. 9n my opinion)about forty feet is about as wide as you can go on anything. There have been a few monsters made,particularly on large loaders but they always seem to get cut back to a more manageable length. Any wear/slack/movement in the arms and attachment is amplified out on the ends there and the thing can become uncontrollable is soft conditions . . . getting the strength can be a factor, hitting a stump with a bit of momentum in second gear with outside tine can test things severely. Cheers.
Simple facts from the Dark Continent for the uninitiated - they see what you have and decide they want it without the need of having to work for it ..... - it's always the foreigner's fault ....
A few times now I have had offers to work in the "Dark Continent" but the Bride has checked things out for me and found a nasty fault, this is a 2 point issue with in my Wife's eyes No1 being getting home with the Cash even if you get paid? No2 is being robbed or killed so its linked to No 1 a bit, I happen to know a lad that was robbed twice at the Air-Port on his start off home by he thinks the same Bandit with a Knife, I could say to my Bride that I am off to work in any place without any trouble but Africa is a non starter. tctractors
Nige - Truer words were never spoken. After 2 farming projects that have gone belly up, I pretty much stick to being hired muscle these days and don't get involved in land politics and the like. tctractors - I understand you 101%. I've been stuffed for cash in Africa personally and it's not pleasant. On one particular project we were working on, the clients vacated a 3,000 acre plot of land without paying for it after clearing 1,500 acres. Two of the farm managers were driving along in their pick up when 20 natives sprung out of the bushes and shot the truck to pieces. One guy died as a result. http://www.iol.co.za/pretoria-news/zimbabwean-killed-in-ghana-land-dispute-1.1279566#.Vj5s07fhCM8 Africa is a great place, and there is plenty of money to be made. However, you have to have your wits about you and use extreme common sense. Scrub Puller - I just asked as my old man saw pics of a D10 with a 60ft rake on it. We're currently debating our next project heavily and trying to come to a conclusion on the best way forward.
My list of stories from Africa is a long one. I first set foot there in 1982 in the middle of a civil war in Angola and it all went downhill from there.....
Nige - 1982? Yikes, I wasn't even born then. You must have some stories to tell
Yair . . . rodtg Yeh mate, as I mentioned up thread there have been some monsters built . . . my gut feeling is (particularly with the laid back style that tends to carry some of the load) the extra horse power of a big tractor can be better used at maintaining momentum and pushing further rather than pushing extra width. I believe technique and conditions will have more effect on production than outright size and horsepower. From a production and "getting the job done before the wet" point of view I would prefer multiple smaller units rather than the "all eggs in the one basket approach of a specialised D9 or D10 . . . two or three thousand acres is a nice job but not all that big in the scheme of things. Cheers.
TD, your comment about the old farmer and the generational clearing hits home for me. I'm in PA Dutch country, and my grandpop made comment that nothing impressed him more than an old stone barn "How come, Pop?" "Where'd the rocks for it come from?" "Out of the field." "where did the field come from? Out of the woods...." I cant imagine the work that people used to do just to live, and did it for decades. No offense to anyone, and dont let me sidetrack this post, but I think most people's ancestors would either be so glad that we didn't have to do things the way they did, or so damn embarrased about the way that we live now that when rapture happens, we're all gonna get it.
Who is paying for all this??
I was in Angola at the same time, just in the south
That would be with SADF somewhere around Jamba I take it..? We were working in the diamond mines in the northeast right on the Zaire border. Our biggest worry was always if Big Joe's came marching north in our direction
Bit more south but yes doing the 2 year conscription duty in the SADF. There is lots of stories about the dark continent adn most of them are true.
... HeavyEquipmentForums
td25c - After the whole thing went belly up, my part ended in the project. The clients did try to keep the project going by growing many hectares of vegetables to provide cashflow. It didn't last very long as the whole thing couldn't support the overheads (expat employees, travel costs, housing, office staff etc). They made off into the sunset with most of the machinery to a neighbouring country. Whatever was left behind was seized by local creditors. They had retained just a portion of the land (about 30%) which was cleared and has 2 irrigation reservoirs in place. It was recently sold to an unspecified foreign company (possibly Hong Kong based) who want to farm the land. The guard with the bow and arrow used to put poison on the tips. I'm fairly sure a lot of security guards in the country were slung out of the army for brutality as some of them were real lunatics. Scrub Puller - I'm pretty much thinking along the lines of 2 older D8's now (most likely k's). They'd be a good all round machine for us as they could handle chaining (if required), raking and do some decent earth moving on the earth dam. What we'd save on the K's compared to buying an N, I'd put into a good stock of spares which would be worth their weight in gold out in the bush - engine overhaul kits, starter motors, alternators, oil pumps, undercarriage parts etc. For chaining, around 400ft of 2" chain is my school of thought, with an additional small section of 3" in the middle to give it some extra weight. I'd keep the rakes at 30ft. You previously mentioned that a 250HP tractor would manage a 30ft rake, so the 8K which has around 300HP should be able to keep up a nice momentum (especially if two are raking simultaneously). I've been looking closely at the rake designs and was wondering about the durability of the teeth on them. Some of the trees/bushes we encountered on our last effort had surprisingly stubborn roots on them although small. I've seen the teeth on the rakes get warped/bent through looking around online. My old man came up with the idea of using scarifier shanks off a Cat 14-16 G/H grader instead of the usual teeth in the hope they'd be more durable.
Yair . . . rodtg. I believe rake design/construction has evolved to the stage where there is no point in deviating from the tried and proven. A Google images search of "stickrakes" will yield some eye popping one offs utilising all sorts of tines and configurations. All most without exception the volume manufactures of large rakes have standardised on teeth profile cut to wrap around a large box or fabricated section that forms the bottom chord of the rake. One of our members here did a fine job of building a blade rake for his D6 using the same principle . . . . I am unsure of the steel available but these days but when I was building rakes we used an "Assab" alloy for the tines and the rest was mild steel The main thing with the teeth is that extension up the front of the bottom chord . . . in other words they are held on mechanically and the welding just glues them in place. We experimented with replaceable wear shoes but found some thing like old (say) D8 pins from behind the track-press more effective. They just need a real good dab of weld front and back and a gas axe or, these days. a 1mm cutting wheel to cut them off when worn . . . very quick and simple. Cheers.
The D8K is a good bit heavier than the H series tractors and chunkier also with a higher blade, K blades have 3 section edge plates with 7 bolt fixing compared to the H blade with 2 10 bolt edges, you will need the high output fans and big outlet mufflers lay flat on bonnet top, it might be worth even running them on a straight pipe to get the heat away, if you run them out of fuel or fail to shut them down correctly you will ping the heads (crack them) to stock a rebuild kit for the engine might not be a good idea, but having someone who knows about K's would be advisable as they can give blinding service and rack up massive hours with the correct bit of fettling, the people who moan about the K series tractor often lack system knowledge of them blighting a good tractor, oh and if you can get the after-cooled tractors as they run a water cooled turbo as its all more water in the tea pot if you understand. tctractors
Scrub Puller - As always, outstanding advice. Thanks alot tctractors - Thanks for that. Competent mechanics/operators aren't the easiest things to come by. We've tried countless lads from Togo, Ghana and Benin and I can't say that any of them would deserve a round of applause. We've had some decent enough operators, but they're pretty much limited to operating the machines. As for indepth knowledge of the machine they're operating or taking an interest in it's upkeep - you're really scraping the barrel there. We couldn't really absorb Western style wages on the sort of projects we do to bring in a good mechanic and some good operators. So next time around I'm looking to bring in a couple of operators and a mechanic from India/Sri Lanka hoping it will be a vast improvement on the local talent.
rodtg... just outa curiousity whats a daily rate for a d8k and operator over there?
Not sure about an 8K. We hired an 8N back in 2011 and with an operator it worked out at just over $5,200 a week. Operators wages are around $10 a day. Diesel is $0.93 a litre.
TBH if you're working against the clock I personally wouldn't consider an 8H or an 8K, fine tractors though they might be in the right hands and also with the right hands looking after them. Therein lies the problem in the part of Africa in which Rodtg is going to be working, unless you have expats running and maintaining the machine you're never going to have the "right hands". To me an 8N would make more sense because it's more forgiving mechanically to less-than-perfect operation/maintenance than the H/K and also it's totally non-electronic. Now what you hang on the front end of it for bush clearing is another story entirely ........
I would agree with Nige, in Africa maintenance is a very very foreign concept. Most operators here wont even check fluid levels or run a machine to destruction so that they can sit undershade tree and wait for repairs while getting paid.
rodtg, Putting the earthworks aside for a moment, another option might be a pair of sevens. They would easily handle any pulling and raking in the light going you have there. Also more agile and efficient for tidy up work such as stoking fires etc. Could get you into newer tractors for similar money.
Nige - We won't exactly be under the gun. The contract duration is 10-12 months. Using some of the methods being banded around here, the land clearance could be completed fairly swiftly. The earth moving part of it is hardly a big task either. The other works will just involve an excavator to dig trenches for the concrete lined irrigation channels. So as for the dozers, they should only be required for half of the duration. seatwarmer - Very true with both machine operators and also with our previous domestic drivers. They just want to operate/drive and expect someone else to take care of the work they can't be bothered with. Queenslander - It's a serious consideration. As I mentioned somewhere along the way, I'm looking to bring in a mechanic and two operators from Asia with the view of having things run a bit smoother. The 7's have been used by many governments for jungle clearing. I know the Sri Lankan Government used them for this purpose in the civil war and its also a popular dozer generally there. So hopefully, finding mechanics/operators who properly understand them shouldn't pose too much issue. A couple of guys retired/discharged from the Army's land clearing division would be a safe enough bet. As others have pointed out, there are plenty of reasonable deals floating about in the US on the older style 7's and probably surplus stocks of parts too.
The rest of that time could easily fly by if you have a major failure, say something that requires pulling a dead shaft. It's not just getting hold of parts it's getting hold of the right tooling and someone qualified to drive it. Try looking at tctractors threads regarding sprocket removal on low drive tractors.
Thanks for that Nige. Very interesting thread indeed. On the last effort, our maintenance setup/budget was fairly limited. Pretty much the result of people dealing with clients (the chaps who owned the machines - financial cowboys from London) who had zero knowledge of heavy plant and would question and scrutinize every penny requested/spent. The whole thing was done on a shoestring and it showed throughout. The monthly budget for everything was around £50-60k and that covered the HP payments on the entire fleet (13 machines), diesel/lubes, expat staff, local staff, housing, transport, parts etc.
I'm not trying to frighten you here, simply trying to be pragmatic on what might be (or not as the case may be) repairable in the conditions under which you will be working. Which is why I'd steer away from the D8H/K. or even a low-sprocket D7 for that matter, although they do tend to be a bit easier on the pocket regarding high-dollar failures because of the smaller size. That's before you start thinking about the fact that, as Tony (tc) pointed out earlier, the H/K tend to have marginal cooling under high ambient temperature conditions.
I appreciate the honest advice Nige from you and all the others here. I'd rather thrash out all these things at this stage rather than be in a sorry state a few months down the line. I've also started to look at a few 7H's as well now, after Queenslander suggesting that it could cope with our sort of work/terrain.
hey rodtg u sayed something bout ppl came and shot some ppl in truck . well what do yall do to protect yourself out in the field or even at place where you sleep ?
Well that incident was provoked by the people running the project. They disappeared in the middle of the night owing six figures in $$$ to a tribal community. Eventually these people tracked them down. Generally things are ok safety wise where we are. It's not as bad as places like Nigeria, Zimbabwe, The Congo etc. We usually hire a couple of regular security guards when out in the bush. Over the years I have mentioned the possibility of keeping firearms on site and at our house in case something does kick off, but no one takes the suggestion seriously.
Firearms allowed in country rodtg ?
I did make enquiries and permits are available if you apply. I'm fairly sure a few semi automatic rifles and pump action shot guns could come in handy if chaos brakes out. The European settlers in South Africa and Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) are quite fond of their guns I'm told.
That's cool rod ! Something I thought about after the picture of the security guard holding the bow .
If they were holding a 742 WoodsMaster, a 1100 Shotgun and a Ruger 10/22 they are just a pair of blue jeans and a Busch T shirt away from your typical Arkansas family.
You're more likely to meet your maker on African roads. My old man almost had it last year but luckily he crawled away unscathed.
True that. Like Indians, most Africans are brought up extremely superstitious, such that car crashes are regarded as ENTIRELY ordained by fate, or by any of the numerous gods in which they believe. With that suicidal delusion foremost in their minds, speed limits are generally disregarded by drivers of even the most rickety vehicles, and of course seat belts are CUT OUT of vehicles with sharp knives, since such restraints are regarded as subconscious acknowledgement that road mishaps are a possibility, which is very much at odds with the dearly held notion that simply WISHING and PRAYING to the Gods will ensure that all laws of physics are defied, assuring a safe outcome when a tire bursts at speed for example.
Obviously that crash must have just happened when the photo was taken. Those guys can strip a vehicle to a chassis in the blink of an eye. True regarding the superstition thing. If I had $5 for every absence form I've signed that had "going to see traditional (i.e. witch) doctor" in the reason for absence box I'd be a rich man ......
Ha ha you just reminded me Nige, that the crowds who swarm accident scenes here, to gawk and "recycle" valuables are referred to in newspaper reports as "sympathizers". Back on topic it really is a miracle that anyone survived that flip-over shown in the above pictures. If I ever walked away from a spill like that unhurt, my next stop would be the slot machines in Vegas, to try and cash in while the stars are aligned in my favor.
Pretty accurate Nige. It's pretty standard seeing people 500m down the road from a crash site flogging lorry parts or whatever it was carrying.
Damn Rod that was a bad wreck, glad your pop was alright.:thumbsup Riding, driving, even walking down the road is a different experience in a third world country. 20 years ago I boarded a matatu in Nairobi headed towards Voi. It was either a Nissan or Toyota mini bus, I got a window seat in the first row on the passenger side. Needless to say it was a wild ride as it was my first experience in a third world country. It got so hot I thought my boots had melted to the floor, couldn't move because they pack the mini-bus tight - I learned quickly to not be the first person on the matatu, they would wait until the bus was full, no matter how long it took.. . Had my backpack in my lap, which was probably a blessing as I couldn't see much of the road or the driving... Made the trip safely but only through dumb luck. Other trips involved full sized buses, pickup trucks, cars, trains and the occasional dump truck - in the bed of course. It was quite a sight for the remote villagers to not only have a dump truck pass through but have 3 muzungu's in the back of it. Good, crazy times. Also had an incident with an elephant in Tsavo East National Park in a Suzuki Samurai. Sorry for the hijack, this brings back some memories.
I've only been in a mini bus once in Africa but the person with me had a brainwave and bought an extra seat which gave us a whole row to ourselves. For an extra $10, really worth it.
I think if I came there I would take apart my gun hide it through out my skid steer and when I get there have it w me while im working just incase a lion or crazy person shows up . is it worth going over there and doing all this work over sees like that ?
Speaking from experience it's all part of the fun and it gets addictive after a while. To put it in perspective you're probably in less danger in Africa (from anything, widllife or population) that you would be living in any decent-sized town in the US.
Take a trip to Mali. Apparently the locals are biters. You offend or annoy them and they form a mob, chase you down and bite you, presumably to death given the chance. Workers on the AUMS joint gold mine venture live in a compound guarded by armed personnel for this reason. Having said that, there is a certain attraction to the dark continent and it's adventure and danger.
Back then these didn't have tickets or seat numbers, they packed the bus till it was full. Now there was one matatu we called the "box" that ran up and down the road to Tiata Hills. It was an old Nissan with a homemade cover with benches in the bed. The old man liked us so my friend and I would ride up front in the cab with him. Two 200 lb passengers and a 125 lb driver, we packed that little cab but it was better than the back.
Well said Nige. I agree 100%.
Pretty much the first thing I was warned when I rocked up in Africa was that if you were driving and were involved in a collision with a pedestrian - don't stop but get back to where you work and let the company sort it out with the police. Not long after I left there a former workmate of mine failed to heed that warning when he was involved in an accident and got stoned to death for his trouble ......
You lot that did not live on the dark continent for half a century Its not that bad, but expect the worst and you will survive Question for Scrub: When stick raking: do stack you load to the side when you have a full load on the stick rake or do you just drop the load and go around it ? Reason why I ask is that when I learned to clear land for agriculture when we had d4/d6s with normal straight blades, no fancy stick rakes and such, so stacking the load in windrows for burning was the norm
Yair . . . Gotcha seatwarmer As you would realise it can vary but, usually, I try to turn the load into the unraked country a rake width or so and leave it at forty five degrees, if the country is uniform the rake will load up similar both ways and you end up with three or for rake fulls to a pile, sometimes the last load is turned outward to take it to the pile. It sorts it's self out and, of course, you dodge the odd larger tree or stump and set it up to take it to the nearest pile. I always felt I always got the best production when the tractor was working relatively freely and we were fortunate in that burning never was a problem and there was no need for bigger heaps. In my opinion the smaller heaps burn better because you can rattle through them while they are still burning hot and don't have large piles of ashes and dirt to contend with. Cheers.
Africa is what you make of it. Granted there are certain unpleasant aspects to put up with such as security issues, lack of infrastructure, the extortionate prices of western comforts/goods, unpredictable power supply, lousy internet etc. Having said that, if you have an open mind you can have a real good time in Africa and enjoy a very comfortable lifestyle without breaking the bank. On our last project, our clients rented a 5 bedroom villa with a swimming pool for the few stationed expats and occasional visitors. The rent and bills, 2 full time maids, 2 full time drivers and a full time chef we poached from a 4* hotel worked out at about $90 a day. On our own we rent a 2 bedroom bungalow (fairly spacious), have a full time maid, full time driver, full time watchman and including the bills it works out at $35 a day. Plus there are plenty of opportunities for anything related to construction/heavy equipment. For one you're not strangled by British style Health and Safety requirements or the American style OSHA. Labour rates are extremely competitive and people are generally happy to entrust work/projects to Westerners no matter how small the company is or what walk of life you're from. They assume we can do it better and more efficiently and there lies the opportunity.
Some random pics I've dug up from a previous visit to the local Phosphate Mine.