Hello Everyone, long time reader first time poster. I'm thinking of taking on a large land improvement project that will require about 5 or 6000 hours of work with a D8 sized machine. Pushing bush and plowing in tile. I've spent my life on a farm and working with and on farm machinery, but something like this is out of my wheelhouse. Would like to keep costs down as much as possible hence why Im looking into owning the machine vs hiring it out, but still need a reliable machine given the amount of work to do. I'm leaning towards something like a D8R. What would maintenance costs average on a 20,000+ houred unit that would bought with a chassis and engine overhaul? I get that that's a heck of a question with a ton of variables. Just trying to get in the ball park assuming I dont get a lemon; I can figure fuel, oil and manpower, but what number would you put on repairs? Local guys run smaller units and claim they just work, but they also don't have 20k hours. Most big ones I see are all over that unless you get fairly new.
If your willing to work on it imo it's nothing time can't handle and parts of corse. Buy to find one that will go 5 or 6000 with out a issue is probably not going to happen. This is going to be a interesting thread.
Those hours will need a set and a half of tracks for a Caterpillar high track . That is a big job and well worth getting a low hour machine , at the end there would be an asset of value to sell . Consider what is around to recover a machine if its rolled or badly stuck . I did the cost of recovery calculation of my dozer and with the transport and 3 days work , two walking and one recovering , it came close to a fifth of another dozer . Insurance company would recover a roll over once or twice but ..... Matching your dozer size to what is close by should be assessed. Who is to repair and supply parts and are they reliable ? that should determine what brand of machine you purchase .
Welcome to the Forums SF! Glad to have you! 20K hours is a lot of hours and then not a lot of hours for a D8R depending on how it was operated and serviced along those 20K hours. Doing your homework up front, hiring a mechanic and oil analysis will go a long way in weeding out the junk and money well spent IMO. Couple of questions: Timeframe? What type of ground conditions? Cat certified rebuild on engine and UC? What other kind of support equipment do you have?
https://www.machinerytrader.com/listing/for-sale/214211913/2012-caterpillar-d8t-wh-crawler-dozers Looks like you are in luck , not the model you want but close enough . I don't know if this one is the same model as the two that were on a job site in NZ , one acting as a spare for the other while it was not possible to get a days work out of either , featured in a thread here couple of years or so ago .
That's an old landfill machine, I would suggest not.
" I've spent my life on a farm and working with and on farm machinery" I am guessing not much on a big dozer doing major earthworks. How did you arrive at your time estimate?
330c Deere excavator, possibility of a cheap old dozer about d7 size. Then two 450hp ag tractors if they count haha.
Thats the high end of the machine time 2 companies ball parked it would take for them with 2 d7 sized machines working in separate locations.
you need to pad it for experience's sake too.
6000 hours .... That's like three years. How do you find a job like that that can get dragged out for three years?
Tell us a bit about the job Sparkiefarmer. What size bush are you clearing and what proportion of the entire project does it entail? There could be options to do that part of the job more efficiently than pushing with a D8.
Bush is mostly poplars, some willows and soft maples with well worn cow trails all through it. Northern Manitoba, turning wild pasture into crop land. Could be up to 4000 acres to clear. Bush isnt dense at all, be ontario standards its very light, no deep rooted trees, nothing bigger than 14" diameter. Locals all just start pushing it in to windrows.
I'm looking at buying this land and cropping it. Hiring it done all at once would be great but guy are ball parking $3,000,000 for the job; Im thinking I can cut that cost by more than half if I do it in house so to speak. Am considering hiring several operators and keeping the machine moving as many hours a week as possible.
I was kinda hoping me in a size larger machine than them would make up for the inexperience; and; I'm a quick study on machinery operation as a rule. Just have to try and hire a guy with some experience will be the big challenge.
Most here are interested in the operation. I'm interested in the machine itself. I haven't seen where anyone is rebuilding D8R dozers for a few years. When you are talking about engine and drive train rebuilds back five to ten years ago, most were done in the twelve to eighteen thousand hour range. That would mean the subject machine could be worn out all over again. The quality of the rebuild is also a question to ask. Were components taken apart and received what ever showed wear or were bearings and seals the only things replaced? Were wiring harnesses and electrical components just reused? Did the pivot shafts get pulled and checked for straight? Was the frame stripped and checked for cracks. How about the equalizer bar and hard nose joints? When I look at possible costs, I try to get prices on exchange components. Engines, transmissions and final drives should be available or at the very least have a price. Once you have that you can get some ball park figures on cost to remove and re-install the components. Add up all those projections and then divide that by the projected amount of time to complete your project and now you have a place to start. As far as someone giving you a ball park number that you can use, it probably won't happen. The people that know the answer, tend to keep that info to themselves.
Hope fuel doesn't go higher. Unless I messed up that would be (guessing a bit too) about $360,000 for fuel at 6 a gallon for an old D8H. Not sure what the newer D8's burn. Just don't forget to factor in that cost. 20K hours on a machine is a lot, like low mile cars, look for one with lower hours. With dozers the undercarriage is very important, and can cost as much or more than fixing the engine. With the operating, with little experience, the job will last longer and the fuel cost goes with it. You will still need to do maintenance, oil changes etc. and if the outfit that did any rebuilding messed up, like most do, yes even the dealers do, then you will be out for those fixes too. Unless you have a well equipped shop truck and proper tools then you have to hire that out. To work on heavy machines you sometimes need another heavy machine to help lift or move stuff. What is going to happen with all the clearing debris? It will be better to clear with a heavy rake than a straight blade. You could even sell some of the wood to help recover some costs. If there are a lot of wet areas that will be a problem, especially with a heavy dozer. I would always recommend a ripper on what ever you get.
If you are wanting to turn a large swathe of vegetated land into cropping land it might be wise to look at the methods Australian's used to turn their forests into cropping land. Since the advent of the internet I have seen the methods used in north america and I wonder how on earth they can afford it. Without seeing what you have essentially what I would be using is two dozers and a chain to start with, then a wide stickrake to rake up all the vegetation into windrows ready for burning.
I agree RC, just been doing some ballpark figures myself using two D7s chaining and raking as you described. With the tractors at $250/hr each, Iam getting $500,000 for the clearing portion.
About a acre an hour is a bit low . I'm doing much the same on steep ground . Blade on area's where the dozer can work and a roller on the steeper stuff . Scraping off the trees needs a solid blade rather than a rake . Mine is going into pasture and having some small material left lying on the bladed areas is not a problem . Not what would be suitable for cropping , that would need a rake to clear it up enough for that . I find its the first trees in a push that cause the problem as their branches head for all the vital points on the dozer after that the trees are knocked over by the trees you have against the blade . I've found I can get about a 100 meters before it too much material to move and once left its hard to get a row moving again . On the flat you have reversing away from a row won't be a problem unless its wet . It is a two dozer job , not important to have both working but one for recovery .
What the Australians said. They do some cool stuff I have not seen anywhere to huge plots of land, some of it crazy steep.
D8 on Vancouver Craigslist https://vancouver.craigslist.org/rds/hvo/d/delta-cat-dozer-d8-for-sale/7507486550.html the T0 sticker means that the machine has to pay a tax to run in the Vancouver area that is very steep. It can only be run commercially here by paying the tax. Cam
I’m thinking that if you have enough money to buy a plot of land that size in the first place,you’ll have the money to buy a newer D8 as Epirbalex suggested. It will give less problems and you’ll have an asset to sell.
As for fuel. An older D8H/K working hard enough will burn 60 litres an hour approx. A D8R will match that easily. A D8T will burn no more than 55 litres flat out. Don’t buy a D8L if you’re bothered on fuel consumption..It’s nearly as big as a D9N/T.
In my opinion, and i speak from personal experience, unless you are a qualified HD mechanic, for a job that size you need to hire a contractor. It is hard to find a good operator for what you are going to do- the good ones already have a job and us old retired guys don’t need it or want it. You want to get the job done with no delays so you can start cropping it as soon as possible to start getting a return on your investment. Most operators will not treat your machine as well as you will. One or two hundred acres a year is enough for one guy, let alone 4 thousand. Then, there is the cost of disking after it is all cleared which in itself is expensive. Around my area, bush is walked down first, then piled into windrows. Piles have to dry down for at least a year to get a good burn. Then, there is the cost of re-piling and burning the piles. Most times, the disking is done between the windrows for the first year to speed things up but then areas have to be disked after the windrows are burned. The best plan may be to do only 500acres a year but it will drag it out for a few years. I doubt if even a Hutterite colony would attempt such a big job all at once and they have very deep pockets and a lot of people to pick roots
One more thing, the method of clearing i described is only done in winter and the best temperature for windrowing brush is at about -20c when all the small stuff shears off better and the ground is frozen. You want to keep the dirt in the windrows to a minimum to allow better burning.
1600 soccer fields.... not wanting to highjack but that is no job for 1 D8 size machine, its a huge job... in my country we own farms 10 times smaller...(mine is 16 times smaller) to clear land when it is aproved by the autorities, we remove large trees and heavy brush and leave only the remains, or brush that can be harrowed over with heavy florestal disk harrow. The harroying does not deal with stumps, usually an excavator with stump digging atachment is also needed. Burning vegetable matter is like a "crime" against the land .... besides the CO emissions also destroys the soil equilibrium. not a good thing to do. One year into the first harrowing a deep plowing usually sufice to burry the rest of matter left on the surface and leave the land in condition to seed, whatever one is going to seed... Very often the deep plowing is enough to brake the soil open, depending on the crop deep ripping might be needed. 2 D8 size machines series H are very though machines last for 30 40 thousand of hours, easy to repair and no electronics. 2 heavy custom disk horrows for the D8´s to trash all that brush dwn... like something with 24 disks of 32" 1 25/30 Ton size excavator, will help a lot , digging stumps , drainage canals , etc the stumps need to be moved... for that construction trucks sufice, if not a Volvo A35/cat 730 is the best bet. For Plowing usually a farm tractors is much cheaper and faster. And of course time span , i bet with this outfit u can clear 1000 acres a year... on the easy side. wich in itself is a huge task. wich u luck for this enterprise.
Just needs this
I agree. Why not buy a new one and sell when done. Your 'loss' would be quite manageable when compared to hiring it out.
Well the $1.2-1.5 MIL purchase price up front might be a swaying factor...
I thought it may be a little less than that, more in the $800k neighborhood. But with something like that, put 20% down and finance it. When done, it should sell for what you owe on it. You are less likely to have extensive downtime and expensive repairs with the new one, so possibly a break even with the cost of the used one.
Sorry I had a brain fart, I was thinking D11 for some reason - probably the heat or that big assed rake in RC's post. You're closer in price. The last time my salesman and I talked about it, a D8 should be in the $900K - 1M price range.
Buddy of mine just priced two D8's with waste package (whatever that entails) and I think they were in the 1.1 range per.
That big rake if you bumped the tilt to much one side would be mining coal and the other would be hitting low air craft
New is not necessary. Just not a clapped out 20K hour machine.
The plan is to pull drainage tile in the summer and push bush in the winter. Will be hiring the easy part of the job done, as it will be the most dollars out of pocket but also get the most productive land ready right now. Have you ever seen anyone use the anchor chain method in our conditions?
Depreciation is the big stumbling block on that one. Looks like its going to spoil 1.2m, and ones traded with 8000 hours on auction history sell for about half that. Cant find any that hour range on dealer lots. I was thinking if I bought an old one that has had x, y and z done to it I would be furthur ahead. With farm machinery either buy new or old but with confirmed work done. But i get it, old stuff breaks down more often, bottom line.
I’ve never seen anyone use the chain method anywhere here
5 min vid on chain clearing for elk habitat in Kentucky.
I might have some pics of a pulling project we hope to get into in a week or so. Will be using a D6R and a 7H and 400ft of chain. Good chance I might have some bogged dozer pics as well, as this has been one of the wettest years in living memory here.
They need a bigger/heavier chain!
Then they will also have to have larger dozers.
That is another form of investment. Big chain and big dozer x2, but it knocks more stuff down faster for sure.
With the right person in the seat, no muddy soft ground, no huge steep hills, and a large D375 or D10 size dozer with a good heavy clearing rake not pin on junk, you need a rake if you want clean stuff to burn and not piles of buried trash. Even a good clearing guy with a U or straight blade has to step up the game to keep the trash clean, I don't think many can do quality clearing and cleaning the debris with a dozer nowadays. In this area it is very important because no burning allowed, only chippers that demand spotless clearing trash and split stumps.
Excavators took over the bulk of that work around here years ago.
Compared to a dozer even 3 excavators are dead slow for main clearing machines. They are great for swampy areas and perimeter clearing, it would take a huge excavator with a dedicated stump splitter as well. If its just a few small lots to clear excavator is fine. Large acres no way. But depends on how fast you wish to do the job. I think the reason many choose excavators is like I said not many can use a dozer anymore for clearing. Most of the newer machines can be kind of awkward in a clearing situation.
If you are trying to produce high grade cropping land the stumps will have to be removed . Thats best done with the tree weight helping , if you shear off the stems the stumps will still need removing requiring a rework . I don't know what variety of willow and popular you have , taking off the stem does not kill the stump on the different types we have . It would be time consuming to go over the area to de stump it . What I have done and are doing is the cheapest way it can be done . On a neighbors place they went for a better finish , good enough for grain crops if it was not so steep . Cost several time's mine and with the gorse seeds in the ground not much better than my place through the fence . The scale of what you want to do has been done in NZ turning logged over and ten year or so pines into high quality dairy farm land , as good a finish as you want . Your job is not a one dozer job and its not a 4-6 thousand hour job to complete it . It may be able to be pushed into windrows for that . Some of the rakes from the pine conversion are still for sale . They looked very impressive when on their dozers few years back when the dozers were sold . https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/marketp...achinery/parts-attachments/listing/3432662750
I agree depreciation/etc is a factor. Going used (but how “used”) has advantages...and if course size to knock it all down in one stroke, is the dream. I think you’re gonna do better treating this like the Sherman tank theory...throw a **** load of them at it, something’s gonna give/move. maybe consider going “down” to a D6; but get three! Two to work as a team, one with a rake, one with a blade...maybe a chain between the two?? The third D6 is to pull around the mobile workshop and fuel caddy. Then when one craps out, swap in the third one, and put the mobile shop next to the broken one. Could even have spare trans, tracks, fuses, oils, bolts...knowing the forestry guys never shut their machines off in the winter, you might as well run three shifts to keep the tanks moving!!! LED light the **** out of of them and work around the clock. Each should have full GPS/comm set-up...Establish your property perimeter...then begin a grid approach...likely would/could scale it to include two more teams (9 D6’s in total). Then as you begin to reach then end of your grid/develop, you begin to shed your equipment one team at a time might allow you to buy used equipment with 2000 hours on it, then you dump it when it hits 6-7k (or 5000 hours to avoid BS??)...likely you’ll need a rotation of machines over the course of a few years so pick a machine that was produced in (very) high numbers But, nothing worse than not selling a piece of equipment you’d like to see gone (aka, need the $$ in ur pocket). Maybe someone here has the production stats of D6, 7’s, 8’s to see what cat makes more of?? I don’t know...sometimes more equipment equals more headaches...but a small nimble team can move VERY fast when firing on all cylinders. Maybe “just” two teams (6 D6’s in total) can handle the work given all the weather BS you/we(!) are likely to face... project sounds amazing...
One outfit I know of, always had plenty of extra machines on the job site. But then none of it was new stuff, so when one went down there was always a machine to jump on and go to work with. Yeah kept the mechanics very busy, I bet it was still more cost effective than either huge payments on newish machines or high rental rates.
Which company are you talking about. I've worked on many of the machines for many of the clearing contractors for more than ten years. Most used four or more excavators, maybe one or two dozers and at least one grinder.
when we cleared right of way for highway 3 out by Bangor/Poulsbo, Scarsella ran an 8H with a brush rake for the majority, and all I did with the clapped-out 225 excavator was the really wet or steeps stuff, and burn all the fires. The D8 operator was great at making clean fires for me. I walked up 5 miles of highway with a couple of fans, and did the up-and-back between about 3 piles as I marched along.
Here's one if you are still contemplating buying used https://www.machinerytrader.com/listing/for-sale/26553123/1995-caterpillar-d8n-crawler-dozers If it's an accurate description, it should go the hours you mention without out major component issues. It's relatively close to you so the transport cost would be on the lower scale too.
I like your thinking, I do notice a big jump in price and drop in availability in the 8 size class; but a D6 will hardly budge a drainage plow, a 7 might in ideal conditions but if conditions were ideal we wouldnt need drainage tile haha. 3 shifts in the winter is a serious consideration, as a lifelong resident of Ontario I'm seriously concerned about starting something thats parked in a bush in -30 or -40 conditions. I havent bought this property yet, still running numbers and dealing with banks. The first of the project will be hired out to get the "best" land in production immediately, then pick away at the remainder with my own fleet as the budget allows. Still havent pinned down a number for big dozer maintenance.... I can only find 4 people locally who have owned one and they didnt use them enough to wear them. It does seem like I'm going to have to bite the bullet at get a pricey low houred unit if i want reliability.
A person is not going to want an old 1970's to 1980's, D8 or D9 to do major work with. Parts availability and just plain metal fatigue etc. its similar to an old car or truck you either need to completely ground up rebuild it, or plan on spending some months out of the work schedule to fix stuff that breaks and hope you can find the parts. To own old stuff you either have to love working on it, or have deep pockets for a few good mechanics to be on call. Big job you have? Like R. G. LeTourneau said the jobs aren't too big the machines are too small. If the ground supports bigger machines and you need to get the job done fast, you need a big machine.
I have had wonderful luck with my D8K, D9h, Clearing trees and stumps with KG and V/Cutter blades just bought a d9t tier 4 machine certified rebuild and its down with emission codes.
I like that old stuff. And have dealt with many expensive problems with them too. There are so many things that can go wrong with the D342 engines (still say they are great though), and then there are the massively fatigue cracked main frames that some can have. Cracking from the equalizer crossmember to the large sections at the bevel gear case, and then the good old rear ripper - winch mounting plate.
An amusing anecdote. My 46a had a crack at the side rail by the hard-bar crossmember so i pulled out my trusty air-arc to gouge it out before welding. It was a tight spot to get into and i wedged myself up to be able to see what i was doing. I accidentally touched an oil cooler line with the backend of the rod and it blew a hole through it. It doused me with a significant amount of oil before i could get the hell out of there . So after welding the crack i had to pull the cooler line off to weld up the hole i had created
Ahhhhh, good times..lol
Ahh the inadvertent strike of the arc. Mine was patching up 2" pipe that was used for a water jet ring on a suction dredge, cleaning up a hazmat site. Somebody ( not me !) thought they could get clean enough water out of the dredge discharge to power that ring of pipe with little holes drilled in it. They were tired of fueling up the Honda pump, I guess. All those little holes plugged right up with the dirty water. I had to cut some windows in it to get the pipe cleaned out, and then I tie-wired the patches back on and welded them up. All of this was sitting in an aluminum boat by the dock, with the hood lifted up as high at the dredge could do. I finished off a rod and tossed the butt, then laid my hand down across my lap. I learned that I had picked up a nub of that tie wire. The good news was the path to ground was direct, through my thigh and into the aluminum seat. The bad news was I was quite wet with salt water and I got a good jolt. My leg was sore for days.