I just read Muffler Bearings thread on a new job, he mentioned flat rate. I would like to know what you guys think about working out of a book. I think it is to easy to take advatage of, and ruins alot of good young mechanics. Either by starving them out while they are still learning, or makes them go through something so fast they constantly have come backs. It is not a good system IMO.
Personally, I feel it's a bad system for automotive and just flat out does not work when it comes to trucks. I have worked hourly and flat rate in both automotive and trucks. I will never work flat rate in either again but for different reasons. In my way of thinking, the flat rate system only benefits poorly managed employers. Its bad for the tech, and worse for the customer. The flat rate system is attractive to mismanaged business since it cuts out the cost of non-billed labour. This way they don't have to actually find out why they have an excess on non billed hours and actually have to do something about it. Any shop is going to have labour time and costs that cannot be billed to the customer on a work order. It's part of any business. In a well run shop, they minimize this cost by making sure the techs are well equipped with both shop tools and training. They do what they can to raise employee morale. They weed out the trouble makers and get rid of the lazy since they cost them to much. In the hourly shops i have worked at (most, not all) The management and the techs have a joint interest in making the shop run more smoothly. For the management, the shop produces more billable hours. For the tech their jobs go better. People tend to work as a team to the common goal of making the customer happy. In flat rate, it's the techs responsibility to make things run smoothly for themselves. They are in control of their own pay. There is no team. Instead of working with the 9 other techs, your competing for work with them. It turns into a bunch of guys saying "that's not my job" when it comes to cleaning floors, taking out trash or towing deadheads around. Flat rate more or less works in automotive because cars are all the same. The owner/application of the car is going to make very little difference to the overall repair times. You can set fairly resonable book times for most repairs. When it comes to trucks, there's almost no 2 the same and application makes all the difference. Example; front crank seal on a Cat 3126. Easy job, i've got 3 of them today. They pay 0.7h book time. 1st truck medium duty clean city delivery straight truck. Seal is just starting to leak. But since the driver is a professional, he noticed right away and brought it in for repair. Slip the serp belt off, take off the harmonic, slip the w/p belt off pull off the front pully, re and re the seal. Reinstall removed components and a quick shampoo job. In and out 0.5h on the service pit. I've got 12 mins to spare. 2nd truck medium duty dump truck. Covered in muck and mud. This driver only brings in a truck if he has to. The seal has been leaking for some time. There is oil all over the place. Takes a bit longer to fight through the oil and free up seized bolts. Takes longer to clean the work area to confirm repair. 1.1H. Lost some time on that one. 3rd truck. Medium duty city plow. Plow harness up front, and a salter in the rear. All powered by a crankshaft mounted PTO. The service writer is the usual clueless clerk that quoted the customer 0.7h over the phone. Truck is covered in snow and salt. Everything is seized badly. Spent over an hour removing the jackshaft for the pto. All said and done your 3hs into the repair. If your manager is clueless, enjoy your .7 In a hourly shop, the manager is going to want to know where the 2.3 hours went. What they can do to make sure it doesnt happen again. Flat rate, it only cost him .7. For a customer standpoint, I have seen time and time again shops selling services and parts that they could make money from rather then fixing the issues the vehicles has. Over selling is a big issue at any shop, but worse at a flat rate shop. As a tech i don't want to work flat rate again. I made a killing at it for a while but it got boring. I stopped challenging myself to do new things because I was sticking to what i already knew to make money. I was going to take the brake jobs or clutches because i knew i would make money. I wouldent take the electrical or intermitted issues because i knew i could lose my shirt on them. So now that i've complained about flat rate what solution do i offer?. Best system I ever had the joy of working with was hourly with a strong bonus. It worked for everyone. When we started on that system the average billable hours per tech was around 55%. Pretty poor. There was a change in management, they made some changes to the way this were happening in the front of the house and came up with this pay structure. Our hourly pay rate was a buck or two lower then other shops hourly pay rate. If we produced 74% or less billable hours per week that's what we got payed. If we billed 75% we got $2/h for EVERY hour billed. 80% got you $3. 85% got you $4.. and so on. It was great. If you busted your ass you got rewarded for it. If you had a bad week, got caught on a couple ugly jobs no worries. You still made a decent wage. You could help out others and not worry about losing your productivity since you were not totally dependent on it to make ends meet. Sorry about the somewhat long post. It's a sensitive issue
Like I posted in Mufflers thread I hope it works out for him....I've worked flat rate and I just think its a bad way to get a repair done ..As a consumers point of view ..In other words is the mechanic really concentrating on doing it right or just getting it out the door ...
Waterdoc did a master mechanic's job of explaining the system. The unfortunate problem in any repair enterprise is that you have people who can repair and those who can't. Generally speaking the people who worked their way into the system from the bottom can, and those who were fortunate enough to get the short cuts in life can't. The experienced mechanics don't very often graduate to the administration or management areas. Those who got the short cut, say college graduates and the vacuum producers are moved to their level of incompetence and we end up getting things like flat rate systems. The can and can't issue works both ways. The smart cans know how to work those who can't and they begin making the system work to their advantage. Waterdoc's comment on brake and clutch jobs is a perfect example. Those who can't don't know how much time it really takes. On the other side those who can't will see a short time anomaly and adjust the shop time down. The whole system breaks down into a bunch of egos and maniacs and everyone looses. The system I liked was to consider each mechanic as a independent business. Talk to them about the job and let them do the estimate of repairs. Give them the tools to manage the process and make them responsible for the end result. Put their name on the bill so the customer knows who is responsible. Finally let the customer request who they want working on their machine and you will know in a very short time who needs to seek a different career path. The repair business is all about skills, attitude and responsibility. Take away one of the three and you are going to loose money every time.
Wow, once every one joined in this got really interesting. For perspective, I'll start by saying, I had totally topped out in my current position, there would be no training and I had for the most part learned everything I was going to get from that place. There is really not that much to a mixer, especially when the newest ones are 04's. And with all the changes that have come out on trucks last year and now, I had an honest fear of falling behind. Heck I've barely even peeked at SCR's and EGR's just because I don't get the exposure. Also I was pretty dismayed by the level of mechanics I worked with, I watched guys fumble the day away wasting parts and making WAG's while I'm busting my butt. I like the idea that flat rate would weed those guys out. Basically, I could see flat rate sloppiness with hourly pay motivation. (you had all day in the shop to repair this wire harness, yet you went with butt connectors, like you are on the roadside) In my interview I said "I've seen the results of FR warranty work, all the A/c hose brackets left loose, sloppy rush-job work, I don't want to work like that just to make time" and I asked if all the mechanics are competing against each other.Perhaps in the end I might be totally wrong, but the service manager said they don't work like that. He said the service writers play to each mechanics strengths and interests. And the customers are willing to pay for the jobs to be done right. And they deal with some BIG fleets. I said " what happens if I get an hour to do exhaust gaskets and 3 studs snap off" He said "come in and we'll add 3 stud removals to the quote" Also, any other problems I can find on a truck are sort of bonus's if the customer wants them, and I do great inspections. My whole career, I've needed to stay challenged, if a place starts to get too easy and comfortable, then I move on. I heard that a shark needs to keep moving forward or it will drown, I think a mechanic is the same way. Maybe the challenge here will be, how to work without compromising quality and still feed my family. All I can do is what I'm good at, I will try that first and go from there. As always HEF is full of great information thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Muffler Bearing, I didn't comment in the original thread because I really meant that any job right now is a good job. My personal mantra is that if you are not getting better, you are getting worse. Working for a dealer exposes you to all the latest and greatest technology available at any particular time and will always improve your job prospects down the road no matter what type of compensation system you are working under. The important thing here is that you will be getting better at what you do and staying where you were was just more the same. It sounds to me like you made the right decision. If and when you take your new job to limit, you will move on again looking for a new challenge. I did comment here because the question was directly asked and I have worked flat rate and could add some insight. You should notice that I didn't say that a good mechanic couldn't make any money at flat rate. Good Luck, I'm sure you will make your own good fortune!
Not in your life would i ever work flat rate.Nobody pays me for the unexpected,they can go pound sand. Either i loose or the customer looses,i rather have the customer loose.
i have not and would never work flat rate. every day there are people asking me for help or to borrow tools. i would have to be an ahole to everyone around me so i could get my work done. and then if i ever needed help as sometimes happens to everyone, i would not be able to get it without a problem. if you arre very lucky, you would have someone with a similar skill level to work with, share knowledge (without ten minutes of attempted explanation) and advance in the field together.
Good thread! everything i ever wanted to know about flat rate and why i dont ever want to work that way! Keep us posted MB
I start Monday!
Muffler you'll be fine .....relax and everything will be ok ..