Things seem to be changing some in the way OEMs are marketing these machines. I am curious what you guys think about the current market machine weights, tail swings and horsepower in the 2.7 – 5.5 ton weight range. I know the 3.5 sized machine is the most popular but every OEM seems to have a different philosophy in what other machines they offer around that machine. What is driving this? I would like to know your guys’ opinion on who has the best line-up and why? Here is what I discovered with the Wacker Neuson 38Z3. It’s slightly heavier than a typical 3.5 ton machine but it had excellent reach. I enjoyed easily towing it, as opposed to my TB153 which is just over 13K lbs as spec’d. Are you guys buying certain machines based on transport weight to avoid the CDL requirements or is it certain performance abilities with the machines? Here is what I would see as an ideal mini-ex OEM line-up: 2.7 ton zero tail, 3.5 ton conventional tail, 3.5 zero tail, 4.3 ton conventional tail and a 5.5 ton zero tail. What do you guys think about this and why? For instance, one thing I do not understand is why both Kubota and Bobcat offer 3.2 ton conventional tail excavator. Why not just make this machine 3.5 ton?” I am not a real fan of a conventional tail mini ex but they still seem to sell, so others must see value in them. I am curious what some of the different views on this are. It used to be pretty straight forward. The sizes were 27, 35 , and 50. Times have changed, I am curious what the driver is.
i reckon this will open a whole can of worms KSSS it is a pretty divided market isn't it every operator / business has there weight class and swing choice based around amount of type of work and frequency of its use I.E here in Australia plumbers and landscapers love the little 1.5-1.8 ton conventional tail cause its light, fits through small gaps and suits there price range then you have the earthworks guys that have a 3.5 zero tail cause it almost fits in the same place as a 1.8 but can move a volume in comparison and can put a fair dent in a job u would use to do with a 5 ton machine and then the medium bloke runs a 5 ton cause its easy to transport its cheap to run and can tackle a broad range of jobs from road maintenance to site cuts and footings as well as large landscaping and small pipe laying tasks which now knocks into the 8 ton class and the snow ball starts to roll machines are slowly replacing there bigger counterparts as each new model arrives the machines are getting smaller in stature and getting bigger in capacity like a big old 5 ton would now be mistaken for a small 7-8 ton
I think its interesting how many more sizes/weights of machines there are now. I am curious what criteria guys use to sort through it. Back in the day it was 27, 35 and 50. Now it is much more complicated than that. It seems the 6 ton machines are getting more popular than they used to be. I continue to be surprised by the number of guys that buy based on weight to keep them out of having to get a CDL (commercial drivers license).
The CDL requirement adds a whole lot of admin, and if the heavier machine was justifiable, then folks would probably have them...the smaller machines get the job because they can access it and adequately accomplish the task. We rent the minis cause every application it seems needs a different size. Hard to buy so many. And the tail overhang may not affect the decision since some jobs allow for overhang..
IDK much about the regs but I'm sure insurance is involved also. I can't remember How I got the idea to rent a mini (2T) but I know it was for removing bamboo.It was a July 4th weekend and the rental yard was closed on Mon. so I had 3 days to put 16hrs on the clock. We spent about 6hrs. on the bamboo.Then I realized I could dig out the brick planter that was added right up against the stucco exterior (Dumb *** whoever did that!) of my house. And that meant I could take out the monster Yucca that was in the planter.Oh, had to get the liquid amber tree out of the front yard to access the planter. I'd been meaning to replace the H2O supply pipe so I dug a trench for that also. The more I did,the more I found things to do with that mini.It was a Gehl w/ a tilting house. Then I bought the Takeuchi. The small machines really open up the tract house market.Mostly landscaping but a sewer or H2O line prime candidates. So many projects = so many mini's. Jay
I had rented a Case CX17 for a job. It was the first time I had ever run a mini ex that small. I was really surprised at what it could do. They are a lot more capable than what they look like. This one even had a hyd. thumb. That thing was as handy as a Swiss Army Knife.
We have a Bobcat 320, it is a mini mini for sure. It came out of a mine in Utah and now is on it's second life. Who knows how many hours it has on, it but it is handier than a pocket on a shirt. We use it for all sort's of jobs and it amounts to about 3 or 4 laborer's. I would like to have a 35 size but don't. Regards, CD
As to size, does anyone own a BC E32 or Kubota KKX91? What is the thought about buying one of these over say a 35 sized machine with zero or conv. tail? I also question the purpose of a 27 sized machine? Almost same footprint as a 35 just with reduced capacity (and granted a little less weight). On the surface though I see no reason for a 32 or 91 but maybe I am missing something? __________________
A 27 size machine is the heaviest machine that can be towed in Europe with a class "BE" driver's license. In europe, a used 5 ton machine is often less expensive than a 2.5 ton....3.5 ton machines are even less popular for that reason. I don't know what to tell you regarding the 32 and 91 machines. In my opinion, as soon as you need a cdl and a bigger truck to move your machine, you may as well get a 5 or 6 ton machine.
I have at 2009 BC 335. I looked at the e32 sized machine. I think I am somewhere in between the e35 and e45 in weight, dig depth, hp, and aux flow at least in the Bobcat line. I haven't spent any time in other brands and admittedly, I'm still learning the ropes of operating and excavator. While it's right on for most of what I do, a heavier machine would be helpful for digging the bigger stumps and rocks. I think I mentioned before that I'd like to have more hp and more flow available for running attachments but part of what is attractive about compact excavators, is they are compact. If I was go for a much bigger machine, i'd probably be up around 18-20k lb machine but then I'd probably open a market for an even bigger machine. I have my first big trenching job coming up. Between a Bobcat trencher and a the 335, I'm going to be trenching almost a mile in somewhat rocky to rocky ground in tight quarters between trees. In this application, my nearly 12' dig depth on a 6' wide frame is going fit in the woods even though it would be nice to have more breakout force and even longer reach. Without going with an extendable hoe option, I'm stuck at this width and dig depth. Other options are wider and much heavier. I will be able to provide some pictures and feedback as I go through roots, stumps, rocks, and hard caliche in sometimes tight quarters. I'm already wishing I had a minimal tail swing or ZTS machine for this project but I don't have a note on the machine so it's going to stay for now. There are times when I see a 7k lb machine as all I need and then that big stump or boulder won't budge or I'm working on a slope and the extra weight makes me feel more secure. Having an 18" bucket and a thumb makes having a heavier machine quite a bit more stable compared to the smaller machines I rented. As it is, I find the 335 "tippy" and jerky in a lot of situations. Not sure I could go back to a lighter machine unless it was balanced a lot better.
One thing I've noticed lately is a small excavator, probably a little lighter than a 32 and a small skid steer being towed on the same trailer. While that would be a lot of weight and a longer trailer for most people, that seems like a "do anything" setup for getting into tight areas or working in landscape. Add a few attachments and that's some serious tools for a day's work. Maybe the smaller machines with increased flow are filling that niche market?
Hey. I have the BC E32 long stick. I do compact excavation and concrete demo and prep. It is 60" and around 7600lbs plus attachment. Has basically 17 gph so it run breaker amazing. Reach about right comfortably Dig eight ft foundations plus squeeze Into tight spot ie last week 64" opening for house addition. It's a stretch but can side load a tri axel and still with long stick weights around 7600lbs plus buckets. So still floated with 3/4 ton diesel with my "A" license. Any wider and I would not be getting into lots sites. So perfect size has tons of strength has cab with heat and a/c real comfortable to operate year round.
I bought a used BC 337 because I wanted big enough mini X to do the job and still be able to tow it with my Chevy HD 2500. I don't worry too much about tail swing because I am the only one running it. Its an open cab and works just fine. I just bought this thing about 2 months ago. I been wanting a 337 or 341 for a while. I started to buy a CAT 305SR but out of the 5 user settings none operated with John Deere controls and I did not have time to learn. Also it had steel tracks and I needed something that will walk up a concrete driveway in a subdivison without scaring the driveway. I also looked hard at a Komatsu PC60 it was steel tracks and it was enclosed AC/Heat nice machine but the steel tracks just would not work for me although I would rather have the steel instead of rubber. If was to buy a new Mini X I would buy the Bobcat E42 or E50 based on the size of the machine.
I just bought my first machine , Takeuchi tb135, and got the 135 because it was the biggest I could haul with my 3/4 ton pickup,( all mountains around here) . I am sure suprised with the amount of work I could do with this machine. It has a thumb and with it I have been able to demo a 5 th wheel rv and soon a double wide mobile, concrete slabs. At 3.5 tons it gets a lot of work done on little fuel and has good reach and power. Why did I not get this thing 15 years ago??? To answer your ? I bought this size because it was the biggest I could haul with my pickup.
Takeuchi builds a good mini ex. I continue to be surprised at the number of guys that buy a machine based on staying under CDL limits (or light truck towable). I get the reason and while I see its importance, I am surprised that it dictates a purchase to the extent that it does. When I bought my first 6 ton machine in 03, I made the decision based on the capability I wanted out of my next excavator (I was upgrading from a 3.5T machine). The 6 ton was where I needed to be and so I got the excavator and updated my logistics to support it. That method seems to be in the minority. Most seem to look at their logistics and make the purchase based on what will work within those parameters.
I look at excavators kinda like boats. A year or two and you get a 2ftitis. With an excavator you get a 2tonitis??? I see the value of bigger and smaller. It's nice to bomb the 35 around from job to job with a truck I'd have anyway. The other thing is most o/o that are starting out can afford 25K for a used 3.5ton, but not many can afford 50+K for a used 8 ton, not knowing if the work will be there long term. For a larger machine, the truck isn't something people would have as their primary mode of transport. One of my good friends is set up to tow his EX60 around, and it wasn't cheap... You better have the work to justify owning the big truck/trailer. He can't compete on the smaller jobs, because of the OH cost of transport, having to own 2 trucks, insurances etc. One of the things I had done is found a local flat bed driver/scrap car guy. He will pick up my 50 and in town charge me $80 for a move, and within 30 miles or so $120. Hardly worth it for me to own a "rig" to move it around on my own. Works out great for both of us.
Price is always the driver, or we'd have one of each...lol My dream machine is a Bobcat 42. Bucket force is surreal. If you can wiggle it, you can move it. Personally, I am not interested in zero tail swing...just means the mechanicals are squished in smaller machines (pain to work on). Plus, one is more stable and can lift more with a tail. Suspect zero tail fans work in the city where clearance is an issue. The only zero tails I see out in the sticks are homeowners who own little ones (1.5-3), likely brought in from city. A 3.5 machine can be easily towed with a 14k trailer, with room left over to haul accessories, as I do on occasion. Seems to me that you need at least a 3.5k to have an enclosed cab (I know you can get a smaller one with cab), in order to have HVAC. One thing I've noticed is that over the last 10+ yrs, the engine size has gotten smaller for a given size of ex. My 03 Bobcat 331 has a 40hp kubota engine...yet nowadays, the class uses 33hp engines...have to go up to a 4.2 class ex. Suppose gas mileage is an issue...
Yea price is always a driver isn't it? Zero tail doesn't always translate into reduced lifting capability. Most zero tail machines weigh more so some of the reduced tail swing lose of counter weight is negated, also they are a little wider usually, with longer tracks on some models. The Takuchi TB series pivots the boom from the center of the machine rather than in the front of the machine, which results in significantly increased lifting capacity. I like the zero tail/zero swing machine not only for when working in town but also working in trees. I couldn't imagine going back to a conventional tail. They are more cramped to work on but the Tak machines and many others the cab flips up, so its not hard to get at most things, but honestly, they really don't breakdown that often, certainly not enough for me to buy a conventional machine to facilitate wrenching on them. I think they have gone down in hp as well, but I thought it had more to do with the EPA restrictions. It seems fuel economy has gotten worse. My latest Takeuchi 153 is considerably harder on fuel than the 153 it replaced.
KSSS - yeah, forgot about EPA's drive...although, it's just anecdotal, but I seem to hear a lot about newer machines bogging down under load (using two controls at once). With smaller engines per given weight class, it has me wondering. I do whack a few trees now and then with my backside, but it isn't a big deal with the lid/door on a 331. I have noticed newer machines did away with plate metal protection in favour of the 'belt'. With that you have to be careful because now it is sheet metal elsewhere.... My low down exhaust is the bigger pain. If we are talking new machines, then I am on the wrong thread...lol. If I ever win a lottery, a E42 or E50 would be in my yard. I like to wrench my machines, new or used, and ease of access is huge. I like the flip top ex's for sure, but they are usually fringe machines in my hood (not many dealers, except the big players). I wouldn't want to go over the 5k machine because then it is a production to move it.