Guy calls me at about 7:30am Thursday, wants one of our "medium duty" rock grapples, says he was going to order one online but needs one on his jobsite "now", wants me to deliver it. I told him it was 30 miles and I would charge $100 to deliver it, he mentioned it was only 22 miles and said he would come get it himself. I didn't argue. That was fine with me. He calls back about 10 minutes later saying to to go ahead and deliver. So I loaded the thing up and delivered. Just as the GPS said, my odometer read 30 miles when we arrived. I unloaded it, he wrote me a check and I went back to the shop. About 4:30 in the afternoon, I get a call from one of his employees saying that the grapple was damaged. I asked to talk with the owner and he tells me that I sold him inferior equipment, says that they only "lifted a log straight up"(his words). Sends over some pictures. after seeing the pictures I frankly told him that this damage was NOT caused by "lifting a log straight up"; it was caused by abuse. So he threatens to stop payment on his check. I told him I would check with the manufacturer. I sent the pictures on to the manufacturer who told me the damage was from abuse. Oh yes, the guy even threatened to take me to small claims court. Said I cost him "4k in downtime". Turns out he did stop payment on the check. I have sold about 54 of these things and he's the first one to complain. What would you do about this?
Take his sorry *** to court... and share your warm experience with him with the other vendors in the neighborhood. Then collect written support from the 50 customers that have purchased this unit and therir experience with you and the product. Go video 6 of them at work, with people using them correctly.When you go to court, I have sold 50 of these and had one failure, the complainant. Sue him for the amount he canceled, a repair or replacement of the clamp. Your time, your attorney's fees and court costs.
I called my local courthouse and was informed that, even if I win, I likely won't get my money because the "judge can't make them pay you the money" (her words). So, let me get this straight: If I fail to pay my taxes, that same judge CAN make me pay but can't if some deadbeat crook does it to me? Tell me what's right about that?
Clearly it is abuse. It looks like the operator impacted the side of the grapple somehow. I will say that I am not a fan of how that is built, it looks light duty to me.
This is the heavier one we carry, made of 1/2'' American-made steel, Made in USA, about 900 lbs. But that's not what he ordered. I should have seen the handwriting on the wall because, when I delivered, he had one of these heavy ones on site which they had torn one fo the ends up on.
It shouldn't cost much to file the claim. Unless he's played the court game before he won't know what the judge can and can't do. Maybe he has a history of stuff like this. When people get served with a lawsuit they tend to change their tune a little. The damage was caused by abuse but was the grapple sized for the machine it was put on or put on a much bigger machine? The guy didn't want to pay for a heavier grapple? Where are the grapples made, the weld that ripped open and the weld on the other side look a little suspect. The flat bar going to the pivots could be reinforced as well. I'd guess maybe a large tree was grabbed on the end (with only one side of the grapple) and when picked up the overhang was way too heavy or they tried to turn and pull the tree sideways.
What brand is the grapple? Seems odd there isn't a name on it.
MTL.
The manufacturer leaves the decals off for us. We do give the name if people ask.
That grapple looks a lot better
That's what happens when you try to do heavy duty tasks with light duty equipment. He should have paid for the heavier grapple (or be more careful). There is a saying that I like to use. "a lot can always do a little, but a little can never do a lot". I get there has to be different price points for different uses and pocket books. However you can never be sure your attachment will be used in the manner in which it is built. So when things get broke or bent, the name on the side of the attachment or the name of the guy who sold it, catches the wrath. When it comes to things like this, I think it is best there is two grades, but they are not light duty and heavy duty, but rather HD and Extreme duty. You lose the price point buyer, but you never will undersell a customer and the reputation of the attachment will never be in question. Over the long haul you sell more attachments and build a stronger name.
Yes, that is what we recommend to folks with skid steers or tractors over 50 hp. But some tractors don't have sufficient lift capacity to use a 900# grapple so we have lighter ones for that. I had one guy with a little Kubota who wanted to buy our smallest grapple, which weighed about 400#, but his tractor only had a 678# lift cap. So the most he could lift with it would be 278#. Anyway.........
Nowadays, nothing is sold as light duty. Anything advertised as "medium duty" is flimsy as shet and everyone knows it. "Heavy duty" means barely useable. "Extreme duty" is just OK. A long log can put a lot of leverage into the equation.
Yeah, but whether calling something "light duty" or medium duty", an experienced skidsteer owner/operator should have sense enough to know what will and what won't hold up to his particular machine. I mean...how many guys in the above posts have made statements about the 'flimsy" grapple in the first picture. This guy bought it because the price was lower and he could get some immediate use out of it because his machine was down. There are uses for lighter made attachments because some tractors just don't have the lift capacity or horsepower to handle the heavier stuff made of thicker steel.
If the triangular gussets on the top jaw went most of the way to the pivot point, it wouldn't bend the flatbar when you make a fast right turn with a log in the air. Now I'm curious to see how my "Stout" brand grapple is built, but it's buried under 2 1/2 feet of snow somewhere around here.
Definitely take him to small claims court. It's clear as day he abused the attachment and ruined it. Especially considering this is the second one he's broken like this. Small claims is free (or nearly free) and you represent yourself. Just tell the judge what you told us and show them the pictures and explain how it's obvious he used too small an attachment on too big a machine and abused it and that's why one jaw got nearly ripped off. There are various ways to collect on a court judgement. Including having the local sheriff seize assets from the debtor.
I would make sure customers understand a medium duty grapple is not a log grapple, just a brush grapple.
This is one of my 3 farm tractors with one of the lighter duty grapples and a nice sized log. Any of the grapples I sell, even the smallest one, can be used to lift and move logs if used as intended. One of the young guys, working for this crook, was even BRAGGING how he had torn up this and that grapple; one of them being one of the "extreme" models. What an idiot. It doesn't take any skill to move a lever and rip off a big chunk of steel. Skill is in using equipment properly WITHOUT tearing the dang thing up. I have operated tractors, skid steers, backhoes, excavators, bucket trucks and all kinds of forklifts for many years. I can pick up a quarter off the concrete with a forklift or unload your semi trailer without damaging one thing.. I can dip all the water out of your septic tank with a backhoe or excavator without touching the walls, plow straight rows with my farm tractors or set a grapple in the back of your new pickup truck without a scratch. It's not that hard. . I'll be making up a warranty conditions/ "fitness for particular purpose" clause on my invoices. Next time somebody pulls a stunt like this, stops payment on my check, We will be filing charges at the local sheriff's office for grand theft.
Around here some people use them to load 40' long logs. In that situation, turning abruptly puts considerable side load on the jaws. Possibly the junior operator was moving a log much longer than the one you pictured.
Ida had that check in the bank, otw home. When He calls back, I would have gone to take a look at it, and have him reenact the incident, that broke it. But then again, I be a landscape contractor, what do I know or your business? Anyway I have had my share of deadbeats, so on a new customer that's complaining, I make an effort to calm things down, while the clock is ticking on the check going through the bank. When it comes to equipment breakin, well, I've broke up my share of things, too, but lotsa times its my own damn fault. When its my fault, I own it, fix it better, sos it don't let me down, again... For the record, it looks to me like that claw was all the way open, when whatever occurred. Not much side bracing, when the claw is open. Musta been a damn big log!
In state of mn. You could push it through as a bad check. Get a lean or whatever is needed. His claim that it is junk should not be used to hold funds.. you give a payment. Check cash or credit card. As i understand you as the consumer can not stop payment just becouse you no longer want the product... If you want the money back you hafta follow the law other wise you are brakeing the law. I know different states different laws. And i am not a lawyer. This is just my understanding.....
Going to small claims will not make him pay. It's the best you can do though, that judgement will show up on his credit, banks sometimes won't lend until he has paid that judgement off. You may get nothing, or you may get a call in a couple years "can I settle that judgement for $xxx?", "NO, you'll pay the full amount, +filing fees, +interest" I can look up on a state website that shows judgements, convictions and most charges in the state. If you have anything like that, it would be useful in the future for deciding who pays cash, and who's check goes STRAIGHT to the bank. If he's a known deadbeat (good at working the system, and your judgement will be last in a long line) then your best bet is to take the bucket back and try to salvage it.
I think it's still a good idea to file a claim. If it's anything like the court system here there will be a discovery to try and avoid tying up the court. This is where both sides put their cards on the table in front of a judge. Seeing the pictures of the grapple and how damaged it is the judge may basically tell the guy he doesn't want to go to court. Sometimes judges have the power to help with collections, liens or getting debts listed on a credit rating.
That looks to me like he grabbed the butt of a log with it pointing straight away (like a battering ram) and then tried to point it up to the sky. When the log fell to the left it would twist the clamp sideways. It sure does not appear that he had the log gripped with both clamps.
I've went to SCC twice here in Michigan, neither time for a stop payment but I won both times and never collected a dime. It cost me time and $$ to file and go to court for nothing. lol I would talk to people in your state and see if they have had any success before I went to court. Good luck!
Yeah, not much side bracing on that grapple, a couple struts made from 2x2 square tubing might add a lot more or perhaps some X bracing or solid material. I don't agree with the thinking its funny and breaking equipment. Doofus needs an indestructible grapple that'll rip the arms right off is stuipd loader.
Yes, if you 'f' the government, they will put you in jail. If someone 'f' s you, it is between you and them.
Well, you'd have to slap a lien on some kind of property of theirs.
Did you get the grapple back? If he still has possession then he has written a bad faith check and he can be gone after at least in Georgia. If you got the grapple back repair and sell as such to recoup some of the money. I agree suing seldom works out the way one would want in a small claims court. Bankruptcy court is the same, by the time the bankers and the lawyer s get all of what is left there is nothing for the small creditors.
That's something to look into. Also if they don't return the grapple to you in a reasonable amount of time, maybe it could be considered theft? If they tell you to come pick it up, nope, it's totally up to them to return it ASAP. To file in small claims court costs $25 here and you don't need a lawyer.
File it as a bad check claim. Doesn't matter what happened after the fact. Ur a business and he bought something writing a bad check. It's a criminal charge not civil matter. In NJ you could also file theft of service go to your local police and see if they will press it