For discussion, between the different approaches to getting rid of timber and/or all growth, in you guys' opinion, which, between these two particular machine options would be the most valuable? Assume for this that the timber itself has little to no value and could be allowed to remain on the property if mulched, or if cut, would be hauled out. If you had to chose, would you use a large mulcher, or a fellerbuncher to cut and haul away any worthwhile timber? I understand these are vastly different end goals, or could be at least, depending on if there were any value in the timber. My main interest is in the value in the equipment. I've been told I should take off the saw from a fellerbuncher and replace it with a mulcher...as the machine would be more marketable and hence sell for more, and sell quicker. The particular machine at hand is a TigerCat 720D. What say you?
You can get mulchers that will fit onto an excavator with minimal modifications. Probably a much larger market pool of buyers looking for an excavator vs a buncher that isn't a buncher anymore.
I think in texas the mulcher would be worth more, in a larger logging area- west or east, the saw would bring more. I don't think it would be worth buying the mulcher and setting it all up, the expense of changing would just even out, the higher selling price. But I could see selling it to someone with the "you can just pull the saw and put a mulcher on it". Let them do all the work, and invest the money. And if it doesn't work like they think it will, that's their problem. And you don't have a bunch of money tied up in modifying.
Interesting. I have the same tree dilemma on 225 acres in TN. I have a feller buncher and a big horizontal mulcher. I was hoping to get some money for the timber, but it has to be enough to justify the extra work and mess loggers would leave. It is far easier to get a root ball out of the ground with an excavator while the tree is still attached.
92U 3406, I've got one of those (mulching head on a hoe) in the yard now that doesn't seem to be in demand, so was trying to follow up on this suggestion. It's smaller than what the Tigercat seems capable of pulling, so that may be part of it. It's not small, but smaller that what might be put on the buncher. Crane operator, I think the main difference would be that here, if a guy was working clearing RoW's or clearing paths for planned roadways, a mulcher might make more sense. We do have a fair amount of that kind of work nearby. Further south, say, Lufkin and SE of there, more logging is taking place. I'm on the NE edge of the Piney Woods. We have pulpers within 30-40 miles, but no timber work to speak of. But I'd sell this machine anywhere if it was practical to move. What is under discussion is our shop doing the conversion, hence the trepidation. I'm not keen on doing the work and spending the bucks on a maybe. Logging equipment isn't my big thing, but we have some pieces in the yard that I hate seeing just sit. I dragged out a couple of Deere knuckleboom trailer mounted loaders with buck saw/delimber setups on them to try to get ready to sell. Those probably won't move locally either. I was also advised that the factory installed delimbers were nobody's favorite and could be ditched. One of the two has been wrecked and mangled. Needs a lot of work. Thanks for the comments!
I have very limited knowledge about feller bunchers but what I do know is that they typically have much smaller pump flows (and maybe pressures) to the main attachment. A purpose built mulcher, while basically on the same chassis, likely has a much more robust attachment hydraulic system. Much larger flow rates, usually higher max pressure to the attachment and a much larger cooling system on the hydraulics to handle the extreme demands of a mulcher. Add in extra filtration for that hydraulic system that it running under load at least 50%-75% of the time where as a FB attachment is likely only running the attachment under load maybe 10%-25% of the time. Lots of different variable values for the engineering design when comparing one machine to the other. Just my $0.02 from my research before I purchased my rubber tired mulcher 10 years ago. I prefer to do a lot of research prior to making purchases or changing directions of my business. Think about this situation here: it takes a lot of heat exchanger to keep up with a non-stop mulching of big trees like this oak that I did a few years ago. This red oak was 5'4" at the cut of the butt. Nothing was hauled off - every bit of it was mulched.
Nice job there, treemuncher. I tend to agree with your train of thought there. The buncher has, of course, a few more hydraulic moving parts, but the only constant flow is the blade drive. That hardly compares with the requirements of a mulch head, especially one of any size. And as you mentioned, the load on a saw is intermittent. From a hydraulic perspective, a mulch head is quite different. I have a Gyrotrak (3 actually) and a smaller machine, a Lamtrac. I think the desire here is a larger capacity mulcher, and I question this approach. I too do a lot of research when I tackle a project. This one gets into a work area I'm not that familiar with, but the basic mechanics/hydraulics I am, so I have considered those factors and agree that it might be the main catch with converting a machine. It was designed to be a saw, not a mulcher. I appreciate your thoughts.
If I remember correctly, the 937 is putting out 125 GPM @ 5,500 psi just to the mulcher attachment on a dedicated pump circuit. It has 4 pumps total. Use that figure to the FB attachment pump for a fair comparison. Another factor is the weight comparison of the attachment and the balance of the machine. The mulcher is a 10k lb load all day long. I don't know if the center of gravity is the same on both machines or not.
Well, I wouldn't think the saw drive would require anywhere near that flow. I do believe it has a dedicated pump, but the entire reservoir is only 42 gallons or so. There would be no dwell time in the tank at that flow, so the cooler would have to work overtime to dissipate a lot of heat from a mulch head. I'm thinking that the size of head we are considering would be a dual motor drive, but that would be a large heat/flow load. I'll have to check the specs on the pumps as configured to see if it's even close. That will close the discussion if it comes up short. As far as weight, the base 720 runs about 26,000 lbs, so the 10 or so allowance for the mulcher would need to be calculated in. I'm not sure what the FB head weighs, but probably a little less than 10, just guessing. I have another in the lineup that needs to be removed, and a LMI on a crane, so I can get a weight if I can't locate it in the specs.
If you want the stumps gone nothing is faster or more efficient than a dozer that is big enough to do the job. My 210 excavator may look impressive to bystanders, but in the cab I know my D6R is getting the job done much faster. And with grinding that stump is still there somewhere.
It just depends on what your going to do where the tree was? Do you want a big stump /root ball to burn or get rid of? Been around both deals . I have some ground off stumps were i mow that was done 4 years ago that seems to be ok .
I don't clear land anymore unless it's mine. But I used to do it for 1,800 an acre 3 or 4 years ago. And that meant leave nothing, burn up everything. And if there was timber worth selling I would knock half the timber value off that. I would have an excavator there simply to clean dirt from stumps and get them on top of the pile. And maybe load logs. If they just wanted cleared land with brush pushed in a pile or a valley, that was only 1,200 per acre. I just don't see how anyone could take a 600,000 dollar tracked mulcher/grinder and work that cheap. No one has one in these parts because no one can afford to pay them. A couple of super big contractors have them but thats it. It takes major income to support a machine in excess of half a million dollars, especially when you have other machines to go with it. I agree, there are different needs and wants in the result of the operation. But all my customers were always just worried about the price.
Wow. I can't see you doing it for that on a small job (acre or less). Just the trucking to mob/demob the excavator cost half of that.
When I did for hire work I would work 5 minutes if you wanted, but I had a minimum charge of 650 dollars. Once you crossed 5 hours it was hourly, unless there was a prior agreement. Thats just how it is here, or you won't work. Too many people into it. I just quit fooling with it. Had to promise everyone the moon to get a job unless they were a return or regular customer.
I watched a guy with a mulching head mounted on a mini excavator make quick work of a massively overgrown blackberry patch. Took it to the ground and left nothing but vegetative dust.
The thought of clearing land for that price would not be doable for me unless I had bigger machines. I would think you would need at least a 30 ton hoe and either a 963 with rake or d8, and or a large wheel loader with grapple? Cutting and loading logs with hand saws is slow going. I recently took down 8 medium sized trees by hand that were hanging over a building. It was 11 dump truck loads of debris, and I left one big stump. It took a week to get them down and out.
I was in the logging business 30 years. Custom grading was a sideline. I cut with a chainsaw 26 years before I got a tracked cutter. I hand cut 4 million board feet a year by hand for all those years. 8 trees is nothing for me. Im in NW North Carolina where God displayed his power the other day. I have had skidders etc. out since Friday helping people. I took down a dozen trees in danger of falling, and removed them in aout an hour this afternoon, with zero help. I didn't remove the trees from the site, but I butchered them into a pile that was small enough to hide in the brush nearby. I know I have an advantage with my experience. But all the grading guys around here can clear multiple acres per day. And this is not flat ground by any means. I primarily at the time I was doing grading, used a D6M Cat, a D6D Cat, 1450B Case in dozers, and two 9020B Case, and one 210 Case in excavators. But mostly only one of each on the job. The excavators were primarily for piling clean and burning. An excavator is just in a dozers way when clearing, as long as the dozers stump well. Lots of people that work by the hour are masters of milking a cash cow. Its far too competitive here for that. Most people want a price in advance before you get hired.
Sounds like you have some experience working with clearing. On average, how long does it take you to stump and grub an acre that has been logged that was heavily treed. Stacking the stumps and slash getting it ready to burn?
Does anyone know someone who would be interested in logging 222 acres in LaFollette, TN?
I was curious…
I have gone as far as shady valley/ mountain city. But im getting too old for this getting up at 4:30 just so I can be working by 7:30....lol. Mountain City is about an hour and fifteen and I have to go through Boone NC which isn't fun. Actually cut 1,700 acres right at Mountain City.
I could do 1 to 2 acres alone. With a good hired hand on the second machine sometimes up to 5 acres, but not always. So many variables. But always more than 1 alone and more than 2 with a helper.
I am still scratching my head. Here on some land I got in Georgia that had large planted pines, I have around 200 stumps per acre. Around. 32 to 36" in diameter with stumps about the size of a Ford truck hood. Takes a good bit of digging with a hoe. A D6 would get stopped in it's tracks by them. With no tree to push on it is slow going. Probably 10 12 or 15 mins per stump.
The trees being cut makes no real difference. Catching the roots back away from the sump is the best method because it actually cuts the roots that are holding the stump down. You are correct that a standard D6 such as a D6D doesn't stump all that well because the C frame and blade were mounted so far out from the tractor. But now Cats high tracked 6 dozers such as 6R, 6T, or even 6M and N will walk through 30+ inch stumps in this North Carolina red clay really fast. I had a 6M with a 6 way blade and even though it's a smaller chassis than R or T, it still was amazing at stumping because the power of the blade was so close to the tractor. The 6N was even more improved in many areas. But my 6M would out stump a 210 excavator all day long. Also had an 850C Deere once with 6 way PAT that was a pure stump slayer. And im sure the 850J and K are even better. The reason I mention 850 Deere is because they fall around the D6 D7 class. There is something about an excavator that really makes them look impressive when digging out a stump. But after clearing hundreds of acres I can assure you the dozer is the work horse, mainly because when clearing acerage of land after the excavator gets the stump out the stump still has to travel a long distance and thats not excavator work, but a dozer stumps and and relocates the stump well. The bigger the dozer the better, but the higher the rate of pay as well, but I would stay away from anything smaller than D6 class. I have a D4 that will outwork a D6 pound for pound moving dirt, but I don't stump with it. I will get a few stray stumps out with it but I don't clear land with it. Idk how it is in your area but any kind of grinding or chipping/mulching outfit around here is stupid expensive and you get a half ass job with a big mess left, and the stumps are still just down to the ground surface. And pine stumps polute the ground with acid horribly bad.
I have a D7R2 in NE TN. It doesn't seem to stump well. The EC480 excavator does. I know it is a far larger machine. My point was the D7 doesn't just rip out stumps. It really struggles with an 18" diameter tree. It may be technique as I used a blade and tried to just push the trees over. The excavator pushes over 40" diameter trees with little to no trouble. I put the bucket up high and use the track to push, and over they go!
Shop, it sounds like you know your d6 dozers. I have seen a few on sites i am on and will look ask a couple of operators that are using them.. I am using a 953 and a case 160 excavator. I hopeing to clear about 10 acres and well I feel like I am going to need a month. But now every road and trial is blocked. This hurricane was a direct hit for me and trees are broken and down everywhere. 100 year old trees just up rooted. Down the road entire pecan orchards are blown down. So much damage. Just got power back yesterday.
I probably shouldn't have said that the tree being cut makes no difference. Bad choice of words. On the average tree it doesn't. But on bigger trees the dozer is having to lift the weight of the tree and the stump, so it is actually better for a dozer if a latger tree is cut simply because the blade won't hit high enough to "topple" the tree. Dozers are mostly always lifting a stump out for the most part. An excavator/trackhoe is just mostly domino effect because you can hit so high. I am surprised you say that about the D7Rll, i figured that would be a beast. What blade type? I demoed a D6T a few years back with a 6 way PAT and it was a stumping machine. I have never ran a 7R or 6R, but I had a 6H once. I was just thinking they would behave similar. But I have learned that bigger isnt always better stumping. My 6M would stump as good as any dozer I have ever been on, except a D8K. A good friend has an Orange 175 Fuat Allis that won't stump with a 6M, and its near double the weight. When the center of the blade is really close to the front idlers and hydraulics are strong you have so much leverage. But I admit, there are places that a normally 1 lick stump turns to a 3 lick. You are talking 100k plus pound hoes...lol. I was just talking about 130 to 230 size like the average guy would be hauling around. I guarantee that 480 will rip em out!
Have had several D6 class dozers, mainly because of primarily logging and anything bigger is too big in the woods for logging roads etc. I have had 3 Case hoes, two 9020B hoes, and a CX160, and technically it's 5. Had a 160x3 Link-Belt, and a 210x3 Link Belt. Same thing as Case other than paint. I have ran Cat a lot, and Komatsu. I like the Sumitomo machines the best. Cats don't balance well in my mind, they rock and roll a lot, and Komatsu just aren't heavy enough I think. The latest Hyundai hoes are great. I would consider one if in the market. Track loaders like good ol' 955,977,953,963 are awesome at loading dirt. Better than a hoe in most cases, with a good operator, unless it's a really big hoe. But they aren't stumping machines. Where abouts are you at? Im on the edge of the really bad stuff pretty close to Boone, NC. It's crazy how bad the media is lying about this storm. There will be a death toll in the thousands. I saw a few people running a staging area for supplies in Newton today put out a video online saying the state had 2,000 body bags in storage somewhere, and they need more than that just at their staging, and the state won't even give them 500. There were high Sheriff's in the video pleading along with them, so im sure it's true. And noone is here to help from the government, state or federal. Western NC is a wasteland pretty much. As much money as them morons can send to their laundry mats overseas and throw at the fence jumpers, there should be trackhoes banging counterweights all over the mountains and the sky should be black with choppers. What a disgrace..
My land is located in central east Georgia. Augusta is not too far away. I have family that is closer to the coast and I-16 they all got lucky and no one had trees on there houses. I have received a call to help a cousin with trees down in his yard. Planning to go on Sunday. I have not had a chance to see the damage to our land yet, my dad has been there and tells me it is bad and sent a few photos of damage. 3 easters ago we got hit by a tornado that cleared 30 acres of trees, and it killed a lot of my big cypress trees in one part of the swamp. Big old oak trees 40 to 55". Stumps that were 12' high and my skid steer would not move the stumps. I had a 953 on site which dealt with the stumps and large logs at that time but it was really a sad thing to see. I was trying to save the trees and mother nature has killed more than I ever could. One pecan tree took 5 hours to remove with 11 trailer loads of limbs loaded and carried off. I cleaned up 30 trees from around the hunting cabin and that pile of stumps was the size of a small house. I just actually got it all burned up and here we go again. I gave up on getting everything in the woods I just dont have the time. So many smaller trees were bent over and arched and they will never be quality lumber type trees. I want a balance of timber and wildlife type habitat. The land has turned into another job trying to keep up with mother nature. Between mowing roads, clearing limbs, planting 16 acres of food plots and building a hunting cabin, it is work. I planted 130 white oak trees last year and the drought this past summer kill all of them, I could not get down there to water them due to work... That is interesting to hear about the news media and death count. I have not had much time to keep up with everywhere else. I will say that the power companies in our area have done a great job. There were lines and broken poles all over.
I'm sorry to hear about what you guys are going through down south. I have family near Asheville. They're ok, but the area they live is just trashed from what my aunt has told us.
I finally made it down to the land and went to town to help out for a day. Got up a pile of downed trees and a few stumps. Everywhere you looked big trees are down. The county governments contracted out picking up debris from curbs. Landowners and contractors are stacking it on the side of the roads for trucks to pick up. Certain pecan farms are really wiped out. I saw farms that had 80% of trees layed over. I did not get any photos, but I have about 60% of my timer uprooted in the swamp. Mostly hardwoods. Some of it is down in the soft areas about 1000' from hard ground. I dont really know how to clean up the creeks. Big Timber is down in the creeks and the ground is too soft for my machines. Hardwood bottoms are completely destroyed. All the trees are laid over or snapped off. It took 16 hours to clear a half mile of road. So many planted pines are down. 25% to 80% laid over, leaning or snapped off. The timber industry in the area is going to be affected big time. Probably way too many trees to deal with. I attempted to push trees back up that were leaning but they would not hold straight.
I did manage to bring back a few logs for the sawmill. These came right out of the front yard of the hunting camp. You can see the root balls in the distance. Shorter trees made it with some broken limbs. The taller trees took the hit. These logs are already full of bugs, maybe pine beetles. I was plaining on getting some good concrete forms out of these...