Hey guys, I'm poking around looking for a dozer. Something in the d4, jd 650, case 850 size. Around 18 -19k lbs. I am going to use it to clean up and level behind the excavator. My work normally includes fencelines, ditchs, tile installs, pads. I work exclusively on farms. No real preference on brand, although my strongest local dealer is CASE. I was wondering what gain you got going XLT vs just the LT. JD in particular sells both. Does the extra few inches of track on the ground make a noticable difference in operation? Or, maybe i should be looking at the LGP option. It seems to me that some of these units have more HP than track. I suspect that in dirt conditions, a little extra pad width would give you more traction, and would make better use of the available HP. I need a little advice on what track system i should be looking for. Ken
LGP will have higher track wear . LT or XLT matter of preference, longer track on the ground makes it easier to run a grade and gives you more traction. jr
In dry conditions, LGP has much higher wear costs, and takes more power to turn. Use LGP only if you spend a lot of time in soft underfoot conditions.
Given that the longest track adds stability and traction, does it have any noticeable disadvantages?
I have a TD8 long track,one of my compeditors has TD7 short track.I think as mentioned above mine easier to grade with and my a little easier on operators back. Just my thinking though,good luck!
Really i think more pad on the ground the better, if u work in any conditions that re soft at all thats where u will see the benefit, alost if it rains just a lil bit you can run an lgp and finish where an xl will tear it up more then it will finish it! If i were to buy a dozer it would be an XW or LGP
This is going to sound dumb but i drove my first dozer (since i was a kid) I did a self guided tour around closing time at a Toromont dealer and came across a case 650 with the keys in it! I only moved it a couple feet forward and back, just to get an idea of how the travel control worked. (Nothing makes you feel young like doing something you just KNOW is wrong! hahaha Plus, i expect i was on camera at the time) On both the CAT and CASE Hydrostats the travel control only allows forward and reverse. I thought you could counter-rotate on these machines? Can someone explain how the travel control works, and how its meant to be used? Ken
I have a D3G LGP 2005 on my farm here in KY. I debated whether to cut the shoes shorter. I was considering all the issues which have been raised above. In the end I decided to let well enough alone. I am the only operator and I am not abusing the machine. That does not mean I do not test her from time to time. But all things considered, including the cost of making the change, I am satisfied. The extra weight near the ground and width make it a little more stable on the slopes of my farm. I feel safer with the LGP. If I were getting another dozer today, I would probably get a D5G XL but I believe the wider shoe is not as bad as some suggest.
I have owned several std. track and an LT. Last year I bought a 550J LGP and the the difference in the work you can do is amazing. The majority of dozers in our area are now LGP machines. I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages unless you are in rock
i have lines on two identical units, one lgp, one with 18" pads (case 850k) The narrow track guy says the wide tracks don't give the push the narrow pads will. Is there any truth to that? i'm leaning toward the wide tracks right now.
This Dozer is the best of both worlds, Not the LGP so no expensive undercarriage and still the long track fram and 30 inch pads where it was awesome dozer to finish with. D6T XW http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/oo132/kman9090/?action=view¤t=d6txw.jpg This was the worst one absoltly horrible to finish with, very tippy with the short track fram and would sink worse then a D8. http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/oo132/kman9090/?action=view¤t=newdozer1.jpg And of course we had to have two of them http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/oo132/kman9090/?action=view¤t=dirt23.jpg
I drove 5 hrs to look at a 2003 CASE 850K today. The unit has new paint, and looks good. I thought the tracks were pretty decent, the blade had some slope, but not bad at all. All the guages worked, no major dents or bent covers. Started and ran great. Did everything it is supposed to do. There were a few MAJOR flaws though. Have a look. Oops, cant get pics up yet. Will do soon
Found a bushing with a chunk out of it. Dealer figures there is about 60% left in the chains. Rollers are not touching the pin bosses yet. Problem one, seems like the hydraulic reservoir wants to fall off. It flexes and shakes a lot while traveling. The cracks are in the rear deck. Both sides have been welded before, and have broke again. Obviously, some part of the main supports must be cracked too. Can't see though cuz its buried. Have to take the tank off to get at it. Who knows. Fairly serious oil leak at the tank as well. I suspect the tank has a crack in it. Problem two, the cracked casting where the rear "axle" bolts to the main frame. The shot is taken in front of the right sprocket. Can't imagine how it broke, or what it would take to fix, but it has to be done. The washers under the bolt heads spin by hand. Not good. Other than that, the unit seems pretty good really. Tracks are decent, grousers worn a lot, but hey, she's got almost 5000 hrs. Bottom rollers in good shape, tight, no leaks. What do you guys think?
Mmmm, frame cracks, RUN, dont walk away if thats the case. The wide track machines will not have the same pushing power that a machine with narrower tracks will. You need that extra power to turn those tracks. As far as finish. A long track machine will make your life easier. A wide track machine is nice too, if you have room, or soft/wet ground. Around here we have the worst of both worlds when it comes to track. We work a lot of soft ground, and a lot of that happens to be sand. Less than 4000 hours on a UC is common here.
I've ran both and would rather have the xlt's or lgp's. As far as the power goes on the LGP's Deere ups the power on them. Even on the G's. Its always better to have then not to. And I don't believe I would invest in this cracked machine. Look around some more. They are plenty out there.
Don't buy a cracked machine, you will never get it to stay fixed. jr
Some cracks are ok because they can be repaired pretty easy but, a crack in the cast frame is very hard to fix. I would stay away from those. We used to see those types of cracks on 955's because they used to side load them.
After sleeping on it, the deal breaker for me is the fact that the date on all the filters was in 2006. I can't fix that.
Yesterday i viewed a '04 d5g 6067 hrs cab, and a '02 d5g 5700 hrs no cab. The '04 is at a very reputable reseller, the '02 is at the CAT dealer. Both units seem great, tight, start and drive great. The '04 has 1.125" grousers, normal fixed pins and bushings worn with about 60% remaining. It also has the the reverse speed ratio knob. Everything else is tight. The '02 has 1.375" grousers and a track system with rotating bushings. The rep said it's not System1. The bushings are very tight, with almost no wear showing. Sprockets still have lots of wear remaining. Everything else is tights Right now, the i'm leaning toward the '02 because of the undercarriage, the open station, and the price. Couple questions: How do the hystats hold up as they age? Do the hydraulics lose power as they wear, or do they hold up well, and how can i test these units. Anything i should worry about with the roller bushing chains on the '02?
Toromont is bringing the unit in the pic out for me to try. Should be fun.
I learned some things during my search i found kinda shocking. Talking to a old friend/rep who has been in the heavy iron trade for a couple generations, he insists CAT is far cheaper than anything else. He says he has seen it time after time after time. These units all have well worn grousers in common so i did some checking. CASE 850k 20" single grouser pads - $78 each from my Case Ag dealer - i get the best discounts there. The same pads from a local aftermarket supplier - $44 ea. Similar pads for the D5g from CAT dealer - $29 ea. - this is full retail, i have never dealt with CAT before, they don't know me at all. The same pads from my buddy who gets a huge CAT discount - $22 ea. All of a sudden CAT market share is starting to make sense.
The D-5G XL is my persoanl favorite. The K's are good too but I am not as used to the thumb wheel (angle control). The only opinion I can give about the unit you are looking at is that I would not buy one without rippers and a cab. But that's me.
Well. She's here. I pulled the covers off and had a good look at it. It still seems pretty good. It runs smooth, starts quick, makes all the power you need. She spins long before she runs out of power. Toromont did all the oils/filters before it came. Oil analysis is done and looks good. I have no recent experience on dozers so i can't really say whether its good or bad, but I have noticed that she doesn't really like to get up and go unless the throttle is nearly wide open. At part throttle (where i like to run until i get used to running it) when you drop it into reverse, sometimes it just crawls backward really slow. Give it some fuel and away it goes at the proper speed. Running at near full rpm, she responds like i would expect. I have to spend more time in the seat to get used to the machine. I haven't run a dozer since high school, have to relearn it all over again. Can someone comment on how these units respond? Ken
Most hystat machines are geared faster in reverse than in forward so it's not unreasonable for it to take a little more fuel to back up than go forward under a no load situation like that. Keep in mind it's not like a torque drive tractor, it's full hydraulic it needs pressure and volume (rpm's) to operate right. Those D5G XL's are sweet tractors, good luck with it.
I spent more time pushing some mud around yesterday, and it seems to be working better now. I should say I know how to operate it better. Set the throttle at full, use the decel pedal to control forward speed, and go full throttle reverse. Seems to work properly. Whats funny is how a down tree that the excavator can throw around like nothing, doesn't even wiggle when you try pushing it. But for cleaning up behind the ex, it seems sized about right. Among other things i think i'm going to get some thick plexiglass to enclose the ROPS. That will keep the wind and weather off the operator station. Plus i should get a radio installed, to make the time go a little quicker. I have quotes to paint it for $2500, to pretty it up. With any luck the original owner will send me the service records for the unit. That's always a good find.
Did you set the max speed with the left thumb switch. I think it resets every time you shut off the machine. With a serial number i can see what service history the machine has if it has been at a dealer.
It wouldn't surprise me if there are various programmable functions relating to the speeds and directions and such, but i don't know what they are. Its the first thing i'm going to check out when a get my hands on a manual.
The left joy stick has a rocker type switch on the top. Hold it to the right and the speed gage on the dash will move up. That is the max speed. Hold left and it decreases.
2002 D5G 5700hrs. When i shift into reverse, the machine will initially curve to the right. It goes forward straight, but likes to back up curving to the right. Its intermittent. What should i be looking at with this?
Calibrations should be the first step. The PWM on the joystick is known to act up and need calibrating but it is a good idea to perform all calibrations including pump solenoids. This will tune everything up and compensate for wear. It will also troubleshoot the system so if there is a problem you can see what it is with either a calibration code or by seeing the currents for the solenoid being way off compared to each other. Cat ET is needed to calibrate.
Thanks for the tip Lee. i will mention it to the rep, maybe he will throw that calibration in on the deal. Ken
I was lucky enough to track down the service manager at the company that owned it. Its a one owner machine, a paving and road building company. He went through the service records for me. It had new top rollers installed 2 years ago, and a head gasket at 3000hrs. Otherwise, its been oil changes and filters, thats it. The undercarriage is factory original, a miracle at 5700 hrs. The grousers are worn 1/2" from new, rotating bushings still tight and in good shape. Rails look good, i even did the pad rocking test to check the track for slope, and its tight. Sprockets are good. I think it spent most of its life bringing roadbeds to grade, leveling gravel ahead of the pavers. He said they didn't run in sand much, and avoided it if possible. He said they even had the program changed in the controller so the reverse speed was slower than normal, to lengthen track life. The good news is there is no longstanding mechanical issues. It seems to me it should be a good tractor.
Now that you have this machine, how do you feel about that machine with the cracks?
Yeah, the case was a wreck. But its a learning process I had to go through to get here. It just makes me more certain I have the right now.
I got some concerning news today. Got the oil analysis. Engine oil is good, Hydraulic oil is ok, coolant is ok However, the final drives both came back with elevated levels detected. One is "requires attention", the other is "Caution" Iron, Aluminum, and silicon levels are elevated, flagged red. The bad part is where it says "high amount of visible debris makes it unable to obtain an accurate particle count" That one sounds bad. Couple question. Is the final drive oil and planetary oil the same compartment? The test results only list final drive oil, but i don't know if that is the planetary, or the inboard gearset. The two most recent samples have the same sample date. Perhaps the two samples are the two compartments The machine assessment also lists front crank seal leaking, white exhaust smoke, and a possible coolant leak. Could the white exhaust coolant entering the head gasket? I confirmed a transmission recalibration is a good idea. Ken
A blown headgasket should have shown up on engine oil analysis.
Who know if the final oil was changed. it would be best to drain, partially fill with some clean oil and flush. refill with the correct oil and then resample later. the oil drains from both the inner and outer plugs but it is one compartment. Silica is dirt so maybe its just dirty oil and not a failing bearing or gear. White smoke at start up is common and not really some to worry about unless it is loosing coolant.
Looks like the deal has gone south. After talking to the oil analysis guys (who do the testing) and the local CAT service manager, it looks like the duo-cone seals are worn out, and dirt is getting in. The oils samples have been bad since before the 5000 hr check. It has 5700 hours on it now. Three bad samples in the last 2 years. I told the dealer I'm not comfortable keeping it without at least checking it first. They weren't interested in opening it up and having a look. They are going to auction it instead. Seemed kinda weird to me, price wasn't really discussed. They aren't interested in selling it. Even if i gave them their asking price, they don't want to sell it all of a sudden. Maybe its for the best. Anyway, there is a nearly identical unit available at another dealer. They are doing oil analysis now. We'll see how that one looks, maybe bring it in. :drinkup ointhead
They probably just don't want to deal with a pissed off customer, if they auction it they don't have any liability concerns.
We send our basket cases to auction and hope they leave our territory.
I wonder what it would cost to open up the final drives and look inside? Anyone know? I fully expect there is nothing serious wrong inside, and it needs a new duocone seal. Whats involved here. I figure break the track, open the planetary, pull the guts, unbolt whatever is inside to pull the planetary housing off, discard the duocone. Then you can pull the cover off the primary reduction gearset for an inspection. Assuming we only need a few seals and gaskets, how bad can it be? I don't think its too much to expect from the dealer to complete a sale? They said they are already tight on the price, and aren't interested in putting anything else into it. Maybe i expect too much.