Im seriously looking at going to Cat. Need big machine (70hp+).any one with advice of models or capabilities etc???
Try a CASE 440.
Hey KSSS, Heard they are simple but robust...none of the bells n whistles.Thanks for the tip..
BruceJ, When I started my apprenticeship all I worked on were Cat skidsteers and mini exe's. The 246B is exactly what you said it is. Simple and robust. They had an issue with the pilot controls leaking but that should be covered under a Cat service letter. There were some issues with suctions hoses (tank to pump) leaking but that is a simple fix. Other than that they are pretty much bullet proof. I can get you specs if you need them I have the Cat Performance Hand Book at work.
I second the Case 440 vote. Damn Cat is a flat land machine, Too light in the nose.
Good to hear some input people. Thanks. I do a lot of hilly terrain work so balance and low down weight is gonna do it...
I've got a 248 which is the same machine with high flow. I'm not sure where this claim of the machine being too light up front is coming from, the only time I've ever had a problem is when there is no attachment on the boom at all. I'm in the Hudson Valley of NY, yea, we have hills!
Thanks for that Steve...I would have thought that most machines would have similar balance. I am looking at S250 and 246b in next few days. Have had BC for past years but feel like a change. To be honest, i got a bad taste after replacing a computer which had already told a lie and led to o/ heat etc on my 863.Any idea about the setup in cat???
do yourself a favor and buy a track machine. We have a cat 236b wheel tired and a cat 257b track machine. the only thing we use the 236 for is moveing stupid stuff in the yard. Track machines are where its at.
Interesting comments. Are different brands very different in stability, or are they all similar since there has to be a lot of counter weight in back to give stability when lifting in front? I really wanted a ss for work here on the farm and in maintaining the trails. I got a demo JCB 1110 and while it did a good job of moving dirt on the flat, it was horrible on any slight hill with the bucket empty. I actually got it stuck on a new trail in the woods and had to pull it out with my Kubota excavator. I also had an offer to try out a NH demo unit but gave up on the idea, figuring that any SS would be too tippy for the terrain here. Yes, I understand (maybe?) that a CTL would be better, but I've heard that they slide a lot if it's wet (we can get very greasy clay here). Besides, the tracked machines are a lot more money and maintenance, right? Ken
Hey 3thirteen!!! Thanks for offer... Thatd be great mate!!!! How do i get hold of it????
Hey guys, I been running an 863 for near on 2 years with steel Grouser tracks.They are heavy(bout half ton) so give more low down weight for stability and traction. I rarely take em off.Had a guy come round to my property with a posi track who said he could not do the anywhere near the hills and mud that i can do. I cant see how a shallow rubber track could provide the traction on 30deg slopes, but i aint got first hand experience so....I run a business with a portable sawmill so i often run BC on uneven ground or mud or branches etc...
Maybe try over the tyre tracks(OTT) Ken!? I got best of both worlds ken, Can take tracks off in dry flat conditions or leave em on...only had issues on slopes over 40deg where the weight of the machine is fighting gravity so you tend to just dig in, like a rotating cheese grater..
Interesting. I just looked up the 863 specs. Seems that newer machines (e.g. S220) in that same weight category have more lift ability (ROC). Which may mean more counterweight, which would perhaps give it less stability when not loaded. I wonder if manufactures are adding more counter weight to get better looking specs on paper at the expense of stability? After all, ROC is published and sells machines. Stability is not a published spec. Thoughts? Ken
Ken.. Hmmm maybe....I got a friend with a S250 BC and its power rate is not much more than 863 but it can lift 500kg/1100lb more. Mind you, the machine weight is about that much more too so???? Im going to test drive a 246b and a s220 and an s250 over this weekend but without throwing them down my hillside i prob wont get a great idea...maybe i could just lift the salesmans car?????
What other issues did you see???? Hi 3thirteen, Just wondering what sorta hrs you saw leaks etc on those machines??? Mach im looking at has only 750hrs..
BruceJ, Have you thought about renting one for a day, then you can run it through its paces on the turraian you will be working on. A days rental expense is a great way to take one for a good test drive.
That is the best method of learning the characteristics of the machine, run one on the job for a day. The manufacturers do distribute weight on the machines differently, I think I recall that Cat is set up to have fairly equal weight distribution with a full load of material in the bucket. I don't know about the others. As far as working on hills, I can't recall where I've had the front of the machine come up before I lost traction trying to climb a hill too steep. I can intentionally get the front up, but it hasn't been a problem for working. One thing I don't care for in the Bobcats is that they have a very slight delay programmed in to the pilot controls. There is a lag time between when you move the stick and the machine reacts to that input. I demoed one last year at a dealer's open house and I found it annoying. The dealer told me the lag time can be adjusted but it can't be eliminated. I don't notice anything like this on my Cat. They had a skid steer rodeo at that open house and one of the challenges was to pick up an egg with a tablespoon bolted on the front of the bucket. I was able to pick it up, but I could have done it more quickly and smoothly without the lag.
Stability is not a published spec per say, but you can pretty much group them into 2 categories: Deere and New Holland, 60% rear/40% front axle wt, and everybody else, 70% rear/30% front. From my experience, the more even distribution and lower center of gravity makes a Deere pretty hard to beat on slopes. A 320 is a 2000# ROC machine w/ 66 hp. You can bump it up another 350# with counterwts, but then you're gonna be butt heavy like a Bobcat. Another option would be to add solid tires. That gives you a huge amount of extra weight down low without screwing up your balance too bad.
BruceJ, I have the Cat Performance Handbook at home now so fire away with questions. I got my copy because I work for a dealer but you might be able to track one down some other way. Now the hoses usually failed early on, under 500 hrs. Again, Cat had a service letter to address these issues. The pilot hydraulic leaks around 700-2000 hrs. Now, everyone is talking about balance and weight distribution: Cat 246B tipping load is between 1710Kgs (3771 lbs) to 1767Kgs (3896lbs) depending on the bucket. Rated operating capacity is 2000 pounds. I can't find anything regarding balance or center of gravity but I have all the dimensions so it can be calculated. A 257B was mentioned earlier in the thread. The track machines are great in soft conditions but the 216,226,232,242, 247 and 257B's all run the 3024 engine which is actualy a Perkins. We have seen many of these come in with dusted engines due to the airbox tube coming off. We have also had head gasket issues with the Perkins machines. Something to keep in mind. Let me know if there is anything else you want for specs, etc.
Good information, thanks! Your comment about rear weights sounds right on. I wonder if they can be mounted in the front for more stability? Or just add some weights to the bucket. Hmmmmm..... Ken
Hi LBT, Thanks Mate! Yeah thought bout that but i live in remote area.IE: we only have a BC dealer. Would have to freight just about any other machine for at least a days road travel. May just find some locals who i could pay for a few hrs use. I kno where a Cat 226 lives but its only 60hp. I spose you get used to wot ya got!?? I found BC fine for most terrain and lift...once you kno limitations you can work within, as long as you dont roll the SS or trash it!!
Hey Ken, I used to bolt some 90lb tractor weights to the back of my BC which worked ok!
3thirteen, How expensive to do seals for pilots??? The mach im looking at 2 morro has done 750hrs and has warranty(if it covers leaks). So how easy to DIY.? I have mid range mechanic ability(ie: just done up top end of deutz motor etc)..Thanks in advance...BJ
interesting. if i had only one machine it'd be a tracked one every day of the week and bugger the cost, they are just that much better to operate. bobcat now do steel tracks as an option for their tracked machines tho i'm pretty sure its not available here as yet. all feedback i have about the positrack brand of machines suggest that what you posted above is correct but i've not been in one personally. i did watch a cat 277b slip and slide its way everywhere on a pretty gentle grass slope, the grass was pretty long but not overly wet kikyu. the s220 must be a grey market job, afaik bobcat have never brought them in principally cause i understand the 205 outperforms them in real world. make sure you can get support for the 220 tho i guess most, if not all, of the parts will interchange with the S250. re balance, i prefer the machine to be balanced loaded, i find the bobcats ok in that regard. lastly, while not meant to be a plug, i offer both a t190 and s330 for dry hire but if you really want to test either then get yourself here to sydney and i'll let you play on some of my slopes that'll answer any question you have. might cost you a nice bit of slab tho
Unfortunately, you won't be able to calculate the center of gravity unless you have the axle splits... as far as the 60/40 and 70/30 splits go, Cat is pretty accurately 70/30 but the percentage will vary. Some manufacturers will go as light as 75/25!
By splits do you mean wheel base, weight distribution, axle to axle? I am just curious. BruceJ, The the leak is found in the pilot control housing, there was an o-ring that would fail and Cat would replace with an upgraded seal under warranty. Cat warranty stated that the repair was to take 2 hours. Really, it is not a difficult procedure and one could do it themselves without issue. If you would like details I could scan in a copy of the service letter. This was performed AFTER failure so, don't tear into your pilot controls unless you have a definite leak.
Hey Mouse.. Thanks for the offer mate! Im up in Bellingen, near Coffs Harbour, so bout 5 hrs away.Still, it pays to be sure.Looked at a nice 246B today which i could pop the Grousers on but that dont help me with the "try before you buy" feel. It felt very responsive compared to S220 (and take awhile to co ord the diff controls) , but the 220 can lift more...hmmmm it will take some thought...and some doin!
I mean the amount of weight on each wheel -- sorry about that! The wheelbase is the axle-to-axle definition, and the weight distribution can be calculated from the CG (but there's no simple mathematical way to get to the CG without knowing either component masses or, well, the weight distribution).
I have had 2 of these machines and never had this leaking pilot stuff. Watch the upside down mounted relay for the fuel lift pump...it gets water in it. Never really had any probs in over 5000 hours on two machines. I think I had one leaking o-ring on the pump once and a bit of bad wiring on the ECM relay. We grease daily, service regular and use them well. The weight distribution of the Cats suits them well to digging and loading trucks.
I will clarify this,something I should have done sooner. Reviewing the service letter (Product Support Program) I found the these to be the affected machines. AFFECTED PRODUCT Model Identification Number 216B RLL03362-04991 226B MJH05814-06792, 6794-6813, 6815-7455, 7457-8076 232B SCH01638-01986 236B HEN03829-05262 242B BXM02455-02987, 2991-2995, 2999-3372 246B PAT03548-04805 247B MTL02925-04037 248B SCL01387-01818 252B SCP02492-03258, 3260-3306, 3308-3321, 3323-3327, 3329-3551 257B SLK04447-05654, 5656-5997 262B PDT03153-04336 267B CYC01036-01419 268B LBA01350-01675, 1677-1829 277B MDH03683-04875 287B ZSA02823-04153 This o-ring seal in the pilot control valve was replaced under the Service Letter AFTER failure only. The program began December 20, 2006 and ended December 31, 2008. I have personally done three machines that had this issue, two of which were 246B's. Since the program ended we have seen a few others (not all were 246B's though)that had the leaking pilot controls addressed in the Service Letter. That is why I felt it might be somehing to keep an eye out for. If anyone wants more info feel free to PM me. All in all I think the 246B is a great machine.
looking at those dates my 246B was before that although it was a PAT serial number IIRC. It blew an O-ring on the main pump (loader circuit) the day after I got it home from the dealer.....the Cat man came straight out and fixed it pronto. It was badly installed.
Great info Squizzy, Thanks for that. Thats what this forums all about...relaying experiences in the real world....not just the paper specs or salesmans world.
If you are looking for stability you want the 262B or 268B. The 262B is more trouble free the 268B is Hi-flow. We run steep rough rocky stuff. I run along with S220's and S330's . The Cats climb steeper slopes and rougher terain but the Bobcats have the stronger belly.