I'm considering buying a backhoe, I've run some case and jd models only the older ones and not much, I'm considering a case model 580D or 580E with cab and only 2 wheel drive, I don't think I need 4x4, if its that bad out I'll take an excavator instead, I'm not really planning on a lot of hours each year, just easier to move for job to job by driving a backhoe is the main reason and keep my excavator free for other jobs. Can anyone tell me the main differences in the models of case, other than the engine in a D is a case and the E runs a cummins. Which model could you get two stick controls in or neither, and about deere, anything on any of those models in the same era as the case? Its been 15 years since I ran a deere and don't remember what model it was, maybe a 310? Don't really need extenda hoe, I've run them and they are nice but for what I'm doing with it, not really necessary nor really want anything more to maintain, just a pretty bare bones machine with a cab and heater. Been looking at the auctions and the price is right on those machines, unless a newer model isn't much more and if so what model and what to look for?
I would not even look at a backhoe that isnt 4x4. What kind of work are you looking at doing? What is the terrain like? Sand, mud, snow?
I have a Case 580 superK, and I like it a lot more than any of the prior models. If you plan to do a lot of loader work, 4x4 is worth it's weight in gold. If you don't , you don't need it. When I bought my sK, I was adding it to a pair of Fords, and I thought an extendahoe wasn't wanted, but there was one on my machine. Now, after having it for 12 years, I wouldn't be without it. It saves a lot of repositioning, and has only cost me maybe $100 in all that time. Good luck, Mitch
The engine is the biggie... Smaller items are the D has a two part hydraulic pump. The power steering pump is built in but a separate system. The E uses a priority valve setup. I'm sure there's more but those are the larger items. Case actually used to offer a kit to put a cummins in a D series but I dunno if it's still available. E series was the first to offer 4x4. My D doesn't have it and I wish it did.
NFDDJS, I didn't mean to sound like I was differing w/ you on the 4x4, I hadn't seen your post when I put mine up. I also wouldn't consider a 2wd, since I use mine as a loader about 70% of the time. If the job has a lot of hoe work, I'll take an excavator. Mitch
We do a lot of ag tiling and always take an excavator and a dozer, but if the weather is bad I have those available, I've used a K model case with 4x4 and extendahoe and didn't really use either feature much if at all, like I said earlier I'll just take those instead when its muddy out, we are just trying to add another machine to help out and not break the bank, if we find its going to be used more than I think, I'll just update then after we have an idea how much we're going to use it, we have also considered a mini ex but then I have tracks to clean out and still need two machines to take everwhere. I have avoided buying one for years now because I didn't want to do a lot of so called backhoe work, its not my intent to do that type of work, but there is a tremendous demand for it in my area, just not sure how much of it I want to do, if this is looking like I'll offend more people by having it and turning down the work I'll just sell it and keep doing what I'm doing now, I'm actually looking to expand some in another area, we're just trying to speed up and save the time spent trucking mahcines to and from job sites, but this might come back to bite me in the butt, I don't know yet. I'm not all that excited to go fix a waterline burts in the middle of the night in -40 below weather or when I'm so busy with my money making jobs I end up turning down work and ticking people off. Is the E model with the cummins a much better deal for the money, there's not that much difference in price between the two, as far as operating them whats different? I've run about a half dozen case machines over the years but the K was the newest one, can't recall the others though for the life of me, thats been too many years ago now, but I'm thinking one was a E model and don't remember anything about it other than it was a two stick, open cab and 2 wheel drive and standard stick machine, then the guy traded it off for a K with 4x4 and extendahoe, ran that one some too, nicer I recall but back then I went to a mid sized excavator instead and to me at the time it was the right decision for the work I do. For you backhoe guys that are in the business a lot can you turn backhoe work down from a customer and still keep his other work, say like dirt work, does that fly or once you turn some of his work down he's ticked off and goes elsewhere for everything? This is my main hangup and always has been about a backhoe, all the local backhoe guys that were in the business and retired have told me not to buy one for just this reason, any ideas or thoughts? I can't do everything all the time, I'm just trying to do what I do now and speed the process up some, not add an entirely new line of work to what I've already got, for me its the busy time of year and I don't want anything more to do when I'm already two months behind now and find my phone ringing off the hook for backhoe work day and night too for waterline leaks and to locate buried electrical lines isn't my idea of a good time, right now they don't call because I've got steel tracks and too big of a machine.............................. or so they think, its a common thought that only a rubber tired backhoe can dig up waterlines and I haven't told anyone anything to the contrary yet. We used to dig septics in and work on them but from what I've seen of the meth problems and what they do to septics around me I'm not wanting anything to do with them so we quit doing it and told people I don't have a backhoe and find someone that does instead and its worked just fine, nobodys upset and keep people happy that way.
I agree with NFDDJS, I wouldn't even consider one without it being a 4x4. Your right in your thinking though, I had an excavator years ago and it was a pain to move it short distances so I sold it and bought a Case 580K Construction King. Now that I don't use it much anymore I have it up for sale here in NH. You can check it out on Craigslist/NH if your interested. Mike
2wd backhoes are like 2wd trucks... Whats the price difference to go up to the newer boom style of a k compared to the older ones?
Stumpjumper, if I'd go to a 4x4 and extendahoe in a k model it would be about twice the price as an E 2wd and standard hoe, roughly. Mike what are you wanting for it and what shapes it in?
I've got it listed on Craigslist,NH for 18,500 I think? Realistically I'd sell it for 16,000 to 17,000. You can see pictures of it on Craigslist. It's in good shape I guess. It's never failed me anyway. It has a Wainroy bucket on the hoe that needs some welding. The standard electrical problems for this model. The hour meter and tach stopped working but everything else works. It's stuck in 4wd but it's at my woodlot so I never tried to free it up. Has a few hydraulic line leaks but nothing severe. It's had maybe 50 hrs of use in the last 6 years so that's why I'm selling it. When it comes to digging it's an absolute BRUTT! I have only used it for digging out a few stumps, opening a stone wall and plowing some snow in the winter months. Mike
That has been my experience, you turn that one little job down and the next person that takes it ends up doing the customers next clearing or dirt work. I have gotten several jobs and new customers over the years that way...:cool2 Ditto on 4wd and extendahoe. I wouldn't even look at a 2wd, extendahoe is more of a luxury but it sure is a nice luxury.
IMO the Super E is a better machine than the Super K. Back when the K model came out I used them head to head on the same job many times. Further more, if I could buy an E model, same condition and price, as a D model I would get the E. Really it sounds like you are talking yourself out of the backhoe anyway. If you don't want "backhoe" work than don't get one. It's gotta be rough being scared to get too much work. Couldn't you hire someone to do this other work that you don't want? Or you could have an arrangement with an owner operator that you could refer the work to without worrying about competition. A full service company can be important to some customers and can even lead you to more of your prefered work (like 1995 said). If you don't want the 24 HR service work you can always turn off your phone at night. Most water lines can be shut off until daytime anyway. You really are not saving much time by roading the hoe anyway. BTW the Case hoes do not road very well (super rough ride). I would also consider a Deere 310C (was available about the same time as the K series Case) as they were pretty good hoes. I have no experience with prior model Deeres.
DGODGR, right now I'm considering bringing my son back into the business and if so I'll need to expand somewhere to make room for him and also create extra dollars to cover his salary, up until now I've never had time to tend to that type of work, I've been busy during the season with my other work, I was concerned about offending customers by telling them at this time I've got no time to do your backhoe job, that would never fly around here, but if my son comes back, I've got more help and can then dedicate him to doing this type of work and keep my other more profitable work as well that generates me money, not that a backhoe wouldn't generate dollars just not as many and as dedicated as my bread and butter stuff does. I was thinking about making him a partner in the backhoe so he has more invested than just a job and paycheck and also see if he likes the work, without him I really have no need for it, I'm busy enough the way it is, now for the off season thats a different story, but I can't tell people just wait two months and I'll be there to fix your waterline when my other work slows down, I know that won't fly, from what I know of backhoes and that type of work, you'd better get there shortly, if not today by tomorrow, not like a dozer job where I've got several days or even weeks to get it done or tiling where if I don't make it this fall next spring we'll get it done for sure. Also what makes the E better than a K in your opinion, the way it works or the maintance and repair? As for roading the machine we usually go a few miles and I was wanting something I didn't have to load all the time, a hoe I could drive about as fast and loading and unloading all the time like I do now with an excavator, which is a real time killer, we dirve the tile stringing tractor from farm to farm and a hoe really wouldn't be much different, I know they ride rough, I've done it several times but it's still faster than the trucking and hauling thing,for most of my trips its only a few miles now for longer distances we load and haul. CM1995, thanks for the imput and the reply, I've been told that many times but wasn't sure if I was being told it to keep me from buying one or to warn me what would happen if I turned work down by having one and not being able to do that type of work in season when I was busy with other things. Up to now I was worried I'd get calls and not be able to do the work on time to keep everyone happy, and as for hired help as far as anyone off the street, I'll pass, been there done that and they were more work than the work they did is my experience.
Randy, dont take that as a "you must buy a 4x4" I just like the k and newer boom compared to the older style.
Stumpjumper, can you tell me whats different about the k and newer boom than the older booms, not to sound stupid but from an operational standpoint, there has to be a difference.
I prefered the E over the K because the E I was using would dig faster, was smoother, and stronger on loader or the hoe. This is not just an estimated seat of the pants guess. I was able to do a head to head comparison. When the K was intorduced I was working on a crew that had (2) hoes. We often would dig to install very large vaults (LA DWP work). Big enough that both hoes could be digging the same vault at the same time (one on each end). This work was in the street so both hoes were truck loading the spoils. I was using the E and my counterpart was using the K. The E would make (2) passes to the Ks one. I know that operator ability figures in here and I will admit that I was the more agressive of the two. The other operator had over twenty years experience, compared to about 6 years for me, so the advantage should not have been huge if any. I also ran the K and my suspisions were confirmed. The backhoe levers would also stick (leaving the valve open) and this obviously created some issues. On paper the K should have been superior but this just was not the case (ha ha). The later models did show improvements but when I was using those I no longer had the E available to compare. I did not perform maintenance when at that company (had an oiler who would come to the job) so I can not provide much insight on that. From what I know they should be similar except that the K series hood will tilt forward while the E sidepanels will have to be unbolted for access. The units in question were 2WD models. The major difference in the K vs the E is the boom. The E model had a square tube as the boom and has (2) boom rams, one on each side of the boom (the same as the first series of Cat backhoes, Cat copied Case, if you are familiar with those). The K model came with a cast piece of ductile iron formed into a "U" shape. The hoses were run up the bottom of the boom, on the inside (well protected I must admit) and the larger single boom ram was also housed inside. This same design is still being used on the newest Case backhoes.
I forgot to mention....the steal tubes used to push hydraulic oil to the stabilizers (under the floor, inside the frame, on each side of the valve bank) will rub against the frame and wear through. This is very common on the K model. When this happens I recommend that you replace them with traditional rubber hoses. Not anything worthy of dismissing the K model from consideration just a tip if you do buy one.
I had heard that case had some problems with the older boom design with the e series i believe. I always thought that the older design was weaker and the hoe strength pushed case to go to a ductile boom over the older tube type. I have seen a pin jump out of the bottom of the older boom style (b machine) and make a mess of things and when i told an older mechanic about this, he said that it was an area you needed to keep track of.
Whatever you get be prepared to spend lots of money on parts. I still say Case is hard to beat, and seems to be the most popular.
How much trouble are the shuttle shift transmissions on the E model and whay type of job is it to rebuild them and are they much different over the K model, also I've found a F model machine to go look at anyone know anything about them, if the machines all run the four cyclinder cummings whats the difference between the 480, 580 and 680 machines other than weight, are the shuttle transmissions and rear ends completely different or do they just hang more cast weight on the machines to get them heavier? One model is a 480F I've found and also several 580E's along with a 680 I think, but that looked like a really lot bigger machine all around. For the repair end of it, are the components somewhat seperate or in order to get to the shuttle shift you have to totally dismantle the entire machine like on some JD dozers or are they more like the case dozers and you can just remove the component that needs replacement or repair, I've never seen a backhoe taken apart before so I don't know and was curious since we do all our own repair and rebuilds. Is there anywhere online to look at a parts book or repair manual on an E model? I've been asking around and nobody close by has one to go look at or even ask about one, some of the mechanics don't even remember them for sure and most weren't even around to work on that vintage of machine, man that makes me feel old somedays. Bowen, most everything I own lives on parts of some sort, the key it buying something that the parts are the easiest of any brand or model to replace and has parts available somewhere and for some time to come yet. Thanks for the imput guys.
If you don't care to pay $16 look here.. http://bestmanuals.net/zencart/ For the 580 Super E put the stabilizers down and look on the right rear on the transaxle to find the serial number. The 580SE started out with dry brakes (like mine) but then the later 580Se's had wet brakes. I am told these were/are better machines. I don't like the tachometer deal being coupled to the front of the injector pump. Some models used some form of electrical connection. (My tach and hour meter is all mechanical.) This makes parts info and the service manual complicated or just wrong. The manual I downloaded from the link above is version 9.2 I think. I suspect there are other versions that might be better for any particular machine. Occasionally I run across something that is clearly slightly different. I can send you an email about the parts link if you want to look at parts info.
The 680 is much bigger and different than the 580 or 480. As far as I know there are no 580Fs originally sold in the US. Maybe some 480Fs but I'm not sure. The 480 is a bit smaller though I think it is based on the same frame. Less HP, weight, and dig depth. IMO you should stay away from the 480. You are going to be using this in a professional setting and will potentially have enough trouble buying an older machine. Don't add gas to the fire by buying a smaller machine that will be wroking harder to do the same job.
Thanks guys for the info about the manuals, and also the models, Bowen any idea what the serial number break would be for the machine with wet brakes? Late last night I looked at a D model machine, overall it was in pretty good shape, but had some issues, the first one was a severe valve leak on the backhoe, so bad it wouldn't even raise the machie off the ground, but it did give me something to compare others to. I'm thinking to avoid anything with a case engine in it altogether, the parts are harder to find to start with, as for the 480F we'll rule that off the list as well. The guy we are working for has a K model 4x4 and extendahoe and wants to update to a M model, its got new tires all the way around and also a new torque converter in it, cab and he's wanting somewhere between 15 and 20K for it, I told him if he'd take 15K we'll deal, is that anything to consider? Its a super K but I don't know what year or anything about history of it, but it needs a seat, a lot of cosmetics, a paint job, lights fixed that are broke, the cab blower motor, and its in the 5000 hour range, the busings and pins also might need some attention, not bad but do those have busihings to replace or since its ductlile iron theres no replacement to bushings or rebuilding them? I'm not thinking he's been too generous with a grease gun while he's had it either, like hardly at all, he's a farmer who uses it for a loader and also to fix tile and I'm guessing he bought it off an auction somewhere, the sheet metals all banged to pieces, overall it doesn't look too great, so I ran some numbers as a guess and I'd have over 5 thousand spent on the small stuff right off the bat plus having to do it all, like replace parts and paint it, not too sure its a good deal at the end, I"d have to pull some oil samples to see what they show, but I'll look at a lot of others first. Bowen, I'll wait until we get more serious on a machine before getting the parts link info from you. I"ve made a lot of calls and maybe found someone who does have some experience working on these machines locally, but he was out on service calls yesterday and I'll try to get ahold of him later this week to see what he can tell me, also someone said somehting about aftermarket parts, where can you get those from for a case backhoe?
15 is a little high in my opinion for something thats in the condition that you describe. Here is something I found quickly for you... The City of Hiawatha has for sale a 1996 Case 580 Super L Backhoe. 4 wheel drive, extend-a-hoe, auxiliary hydraulics for breaker/tamper, 5000 hours, 24 inch and 12 inch buckets. Sealed bids will be received until 10 AM Dec. 20th 2011. Minimum bid of $12,500. Send sealed bid to City Clerk, City of Hiawatha, 101 Emmons St., Hiawatha, IA 52233. Backhoe may be viewed at Public Works Facility 1410 Robins Rd. Hiawatha, IA. Call 319-393-6601 to schedule appointment.
OK I"ll admit I'd not the sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to computers, but how did you come up with that one?
I would take a look at this one. I was a lot more comfortable buying an L model because of the transmission and tanks. Tanks are in the frame on the K and can crack and leak. The K transaxle doesn't road well sometimes. There are lot of threads here with good buying advice, I should have kept links. Do stall tests and check for rust.
1st this is ONLY for the 580SE so far as I know. Look at this link.. Down in this link there is also another link that tell deeper how to tell. This is still somewhat vague to me. My transaxle is Model A179041. Serial # 16274426. Seems that S/N 16270319 was a magic number, and I THINK I have dry brakes, but they sure do work good, and I am not sure what I have yet. You can see the red stuff around the seal and a mechanic told me this might indicate that they were wet, but I do no know for now. It's a 1985 model and they may have been replaced at some point.
I'm sure that most with extensive Case experience will have similar suggestions as DirtName. Many have commented here that the L series is the best one to date (Case is now offering the N series). The main problem is that these machines usually come with a higher price tag. IMO though spending a little more now could save a lot more later. As far as the K that your customer has those things you mention tell a much bigger story than what you can see that you need to fix. We've all heard that you can't judge a book by it's cover but in this case I think you would be wise to listen to the clues that are staring you in the face. If the owner can not be bothered to grease the machine I doubt they would be motivated to change oils, filters, or any other maintenance. I could be wrong but I doubt it.
Depends on what kind of part generally. Aftermarket parts are all over the web, but it helps to have the Case part number to start with.
Thanks for the tips, my son is trying to get into this type of work at an entry level and I'm trying to help him but at the same time trying to stay out of it, its looking like I'll be a silent partner and want some beind the scenes info so I can somewhat direct him, [you know the dad thing] but there's no way he can spend a fortune to get a machine that I think he should, like a low houred late model almost new one, I don't want to step on his toes and push my weight around but at the same time not let him buy a total piece of scrap iron or bottomless money pit either, I was hoping for a better low usage E or K for a reasonable price, but I'll definately check into the L model up for bids. I"m not encouraging him to lease one either, he needs to know how to fix and have some sweat equity in the machine and also see if there is a need for this and he likes it first before diving in and if he needs an out, not cost him a fortune to bail out of it either. That and dad's not so sure he wants to own half interest or whatever in a 30k or more backhoe, 15k total or less looks better to me for my part of something thats not really going to make me much or probably cost me in the long run. I'm comparing to auction prices just to cover my butt and I'm not going to go much over those in case the whole thing turns sour and we need an out, that and older machines don't depreciate as fast or much at all once they hit a certain age, its the parts factor that adds cost to it not really lower values at resale time or tradein time.
Not sure I want to give all my secret powers away but here is a tip. "www.searchtempest.com" is a search engine of e-classified sites such as ebay & craigslist and such. I simply picked a iowa zip code and ran a 200 mile search for backhoes for sale...
The oldest machine I'd be willing to back-grade to would be a 580 SL. This is gonna be long, but I'll tell you why... I'm 39 yrs old, my dad started my company the year I was born. We started with 580 B's, I'm not sure how long the B had been out in 1972, but I do know that some of them we had didn't come with a ROPS canopy on them. Our mechanic installed the factory-supplied ROPS in the field on at least 2 of them I know of. We had a total of five 580 B's, the oldest being '72 models and I think the newest being about a 1975 model. The '75 model had a power shuttle, the other 4 were clutch machines. These are the machines I first learned to operate on. In 1977 I'm pretty sure (late '77) we bought 3 brand new 580 C's. 2 wheel drive, standard hoe, cab with heater. These 3 machines were the biggest pile of $h1t we ever owned. All 3 of them... Had Case work on them numerous times, our own mechanic worked on them... They just never were right. The only way you could lift the back of the machine off the ground with the back bucket was to raise the front bucket. Didn't have enough power to overcome the leverage of the extra length of the machine. if you got in mud bad enough to have to walk it out with both the front and back end, you might as well hook a dozer to it. They didn't have enough hydraulic power to work both functions at the same time. Cab was horrible on them, you couldn't tell where your back tires were when sitting on the seat, Real fun to load or unload off a trailer when you can't tell where your tires are. And the cab was an oven in the summertime. One of the C's got stolen in about 1980, and we traded the other 2 C's in on 2 brand new 580 D's in 1991. Keep in mind, we traded the C's in, but still had 5- 580 B's... The operators preferred the B's over the C's... The 580 D's were both 2 wheel drive, standard hoe, open ROPS. The 580 D's were good machines. We kept both of them until 1990. In June of 1984, we bought our first 580 Super E's. Bought 2 of them at the same time. One was stolen 2 weeks later, so we bought another one, then in 1986 another one was stolen, so we got another new one. I beleive we traded the 2 oldest B's on the first E's, but not sure on that. I know from about 1980 till 1995 we had 7 backhoes at all times. Now about the E's, for their time, they were great machines. You could tell a lot of difference in power with the E's compared to the older machines, and hydraulic speed was quicker. Now, why I wouldn't go back to any of these machines... These had all "evolved" from a farm tractor type base, starting I think with the 530, then going to the 580 Construction King, then to the 580 B. They started with a basic tractor, then added a loader and a backhoe attachment. State of the art for the time, but that time was 40 years ago. I can remember the whole backhoe attachment becoming loose when a Tie-bolt would loosen or even worse break. They had the steel tube backhoe boom, which just about every one of the machines mentioned ended up having to be welded back together at some point. Twin boom lift cylinders, that greatly reduced your view in the trench with a small bucket. We re-bushed MANY of the swing towers and bottoms of booms on these machines, they'd get so much slop in them that it was horrible trying to dig with them. And we were constantly re-packing hydraulic cylinders it seemed like. We replaced several bucket cylinders on the D's, as they'd get bent. This was fixed on the E, as they went to a beefier cylinder. In 1990, we bought our first 580K. Again, it seemed to be a step backwards. The old E's we had would out-dig it. And the backhoe control levers had a habit of sticking. Also, the 4 speed lever for the transmission came up out of the floor on the right side, and by the time it was 6 months old, if you didn't know the "technique" for shifting it, it would bind up. Brakes were kinda crappy on it too. In 1991, got our first 580 K extendahoe. It was the next "Phase" than the first K, and was much improved. Sticking control issue was resolved, shifter was moved into right had console, and it actually had power and speed. In 1993 I bought a new 580 Super K. Again open ROPS, standard hoe, 2 wheel drive. It was another "phase" up, and was a very good machine. I kept it until it got stolen in September of 2009. Never had a major repair of any kind on this machine. It did have the common electrical "gremlins" the K's are famous for. But otherwise was a very good machine. In 1995, I bought my first cab machine since the C's. Brand new 580 Super L, cab with heat and air, standard hoe, 2 wheel drive. I wanted a 4x4 extendahoe, but it was going to take a couple of months to get one in, so I bought this one. It didn't have the A/c installed when I bought it, but a factory air unit was figured into the price, and installed when it came in about 2 weeks later. Now here is some advice I'll give everyone... I can't imagine a used machine with air costing a lot more than one without A/c. Even if it doesn't work, it can be fixed. I WOULD NOT BUY A CAB BACKHOE WITHOUT A/C UNLESS I WAS ONLY GOING TO RUN IT IN ALASKA OR ANTARTICA... I bought this backhoe in April of 1995. I'm in Oklahoma. I ran it a week, then parked it for the other week until my air was installed. IT WAS LIKE SITTING IN A GREENHOUSE. Well, a greenhouse with a motor on the other side of the glass, and hot hydraulic components in the floor. I'm also kinda fanatical about if I have a cab machine, I don't want the interior of it to be covered in dust and dirt. I do dig most of the time with the back window open, but never open the side windows. I know it's bought to work, but when I spend over $50,000 on something, I kind of like it to be kept clean. Like people that will open all the windows because they're too lazy to clean them... One of my pet peeves. Anyway... I kept the 580 Super L until September of 2009, when I used the insurance money from the 580 Super K and the Super L as trade in on my 580 Super M. The Super M is Cab with heat and air, 4x4, extendahoe, ride control, pilot controls. I love the pilot controls, as I actually run an excavator most of the time, so the pilot controls are natural for me. The 4x4 is worth it's weight in gold, as is the extendahoe. It's not hard to get used to the extra reach, but is hard to get used to not having it when you get on a machine without it. The ride control is great, not only for roading, but just on a rough jobsite it makes a world of difference. I've got about 1500 hours on the Super M now, and (knock on wood) have had absolutely no problems out of it. I never had it head to head with my Super L, but I think it'll out dig it, and that's saying a lot to me. Now, we did have a 580 M, Open ROPS, 4x4 extendahoe that we bought in 2006 I think. It came off of the Case rental fleet, so I don't know if it was turned down or anything, but I was never impressed with it. The 580 Super K would out dig and out lift it, and the Super L and Super M would blow it away. You could park it side by side with any of them, and tell it was a lighter machine. I think they made a lighter version of the 580 when they did away with the 480, and just made it the "plain" letter instead of a super. We actually got so much mud packed up in the rear end of it once, that we had to pull the back tires off, and clean the mud out because it wouldn't pull itself. Pretty sad when it wouldn't go, but the 2 wheel drive Super K just kept wallering through the same mud, bringing rock to my gravel box. It also seemed like the straight M got a lot of slack in the pins and bushings on the back end awful soon. Even greasing it everyday. Well, Seems I wrote a book, but I think I pretty well covered everything I can think of. We've never replaced a motor in any of them over the years, I don't remember any transmission problems, we did shell out a rear end in one of the D's and also an E, but no telling what was done to cause that. That was back in the "pipeline" days, and these machines took a LOT of punishment. As of yet, havn't cracked or broken one of the ductile Iron booms, and we dig a LOT of rock. I'll use an excavator whenever possible, but we work a lot of places you just can't get a PC200 or larger into. I've laid 8" ductile Iron sewer and set precast manholes with my Super M. I don't recommend it, but it can be done...
Handtpipeline, thanks for the info, now for a few questions, I was told yesterday that the ductile iron booms and components are no more, even on the new machines, and won't be available on new parts for older machines, something about cost to manufacturer or availabilty, the shop forman I talked to wasn't sure the exact reason but his spin on the whole scenerio was a totally different view than anyone has given me. His concern about ductile iron booms and components was shortly none of those will be ductile iron and replacement parts were to be steel of some sort, even the new machines made today they are back to a steel something like years gone by, now armed with that info, he recommended to go to a good used D or E model, because he wasn't sure how steel replacement parts would do with a ductile iron setup, his conscern was that not even aftermarket parts would be able to get ductile iron and until things sort themselves out maybe hold off on the newer untis with ductlle iron on them. Now for his opinion on the backhoe selection, first off until we know how much or how little use we're going to have for one, buy a tried and true design and then decide weather to replace an engine or overhaul one. I sat and listened to his reasoning and its as follows, now remember he's a die hard case man, long before cummins ever came out, a case engine can be overhauled, one sleeve and piston at a time if need be if a vavle dropped or whatever happened, parts are cheaper and readily available, and if worst case severio an entire engine was needed a cummins could be put in at that time, but also there are a lot of case engines sitting around that could be bought really cheap to replace the case engine. I sat and listened to what he said and then he started in on the K models, his opinion wasn't the highest on those machines at all, there were two years in there to avoid altogether, they have an entirely different transmission in them and they were a lemon and no way to update or swap them out, he would look up the years for me if I ever looked at a k model. He wasn't at all impressed with the K he claimed they had plenty of problems with its growing pains and to basically avoid them unless we planned on upgrading it shortly to a newer model, he also complained about the visability with the two cylinders on the D or E but those can be overcome a lot faster than some of the newer machines problems can, also the booms can be repaired not replaced and he wasn't sure what the replacement parts would be for a upgraded booms, but he said very few ever were repalced, but at the same time its man made and his luck was something would happen, slide off a truck or a ditch and bend it or some other strange deal and yes there are salvage yards but whats the price going to be if aftermarket might be able to reproduce ductile iron? He hammered away a long time on the uncertainty of ductile iron it was his biggest hangup on the whole deal, as he said, steel isn't a strong enough replacement for ductile iron nor ever would be. Different shop forman differernt shop, not quite the same story but a lot of complaints about the K model and certain years and updates or upgrades that didn't pan out, his opinion of the K was and unevolved child that never grew up unitl they moved onto the next model, too many updates and too many different changes to get the machine to work and way too many mistakes on case's part for any model and a lot of operator complaints, he at the same time liked the D and E models and had no real complaints about any of those models, sure they are older technology but they worked and got the job done, he wasn't too hung up on the pumps and brakes differences and he compared them to those on the K and its many differences and things that didn't work at all and the slow and jerky hydraulics, now that said as they say was I being fed a line or is there truth in what I was told? Nobody has ever said anything about ductile iron or its phase out of the industry, the first guy thought it was with the supplier and it wasn't an option anymore for anyone, the second guy wasn't sure why the reason for it being gone but the new machines have no ductile iron on them or shortly anyhow they wouldn't have any, I was told both ways, any ideas????? As they say before I started I knew nothing about backhoes and now after some research I find I know even less than I did before I started and my wife said, yea but throw some money into the equation and your learining curve will go up considerably very quickly and how you should have done it instead of how you did do it. Thanks for the imput and keep it coming I need all the help I can get.
Randy, I've operated every model Caes backhoe from 1960's era 530 to 2003 580M. I put on well over 1000 hrs./year on many. I am now out of excavating on a full time scale, but I'm looking for a machine to do occasional work. The first generation 580K is what I'm after. It has the same tried and true power shuttle that has beeen used on 580B,C,D and E models. The transaxle is essentially the same as well. The brakes were updated on the K. The hydraulics were way ahead of the previous models. Yes, L,M, and new N series are fast, but there are alot more electronics, switches and higher priced parts on them. In my opinion the K was the first of the new high production machines and will still run with a new one if everything is up to par. You don't need a 4X4 or extendahoe. Sure it is nice to have, but you could put a set of chains on the few times you may have to put it in deep mud. Extendahoe is nice as far as extra set up or deep trenching. You use your excavator for deep stuff anyway. In my opinon you pay extra for 4X4 and etendaoe in the begining and you pay for it each and every day in tire wear, yard damage and the annoying extra slop in the extendhoe. The cummins engines in the E models and newer are bulletproof. I ran a 580k to 12,300 hrs. and never had a valve cover off. Just my 2 cents.
Randy, my understanding about the ductile iron is that it is SOFTER than steel and will flex some instead of cracking. I'm not too sure why you are concerned about the ductile iron booms. I don't recall ever hearing of one failing. I doubt that you will have to replace one. As far as Case eliminating ductile booms I think they will have parts for while as I think the same boom is used through the M series. I still think that L series in Hiawatha is your best bet.
HA! 4X4 or not. Extended hoe or not. Mine has neither and I would rarely use either. It may be like a 4 wheel drive truck. Some folks are in the mud 1 time a year maybe...not worth the extra money. BUT when you get in that real jam, these things are nice. I will not be digging any real deep holes, but at rare times a little extra reach would be nice. Here on the farm and in the yard I like the smooth tires on the front to prevent yard damage. I say buy these things ONLY if your situation requires it.
The ductile booms do break - for the many, many thousands that are in service, a few breaks - don't even count as a percentage for CNH. Re: fabricated booms - most older models I have seen have had welding repairs done to them & have seen more than a few in 2 pieces.
If you read the manual it says to NOT WELD ANY CAST IRON PARTS ON THESE MACHINES....
DGODGR, what do you think a bid shoud be on the L in Hiawatha? I"ve been looking on the internet for prior sales and they range anywhere from 15-24K, I"m going to a sale today to watch a backhoe sell and see just how much it brings, not really interested by it is close by and was curious as to what things are bringing, I might have to get our of this area completely to buy anything, the prices here are beyond crazy, farmers have so much money they will pay anything, I was told a M machine sold a week ago for 39K and several farmers were after it and one ended up with it, didn't surprise me at all, with 10K land and rent at or over 500 per acre, junk sells for a fortune, there is a D model up for sale and its predicted to sell for almost 14k, we'll see, I've already talked to several farmers who are after that L at hiawatha and they have way deeper pockets than I do. As for the farmers K he bought it used at an auction, he puts about 20 hours per year on it and has had it maybe 5 years, its supposed to have something like 4600 hours on it and most of if not all the stuff needing fixing is from whoever owned it before him, this guy is also after the L at hiawatha, I haven't had time to go see it yet, we're trying to do as many jobs before freeze up as possilbe but next week sometime I"ll at least get down there to look, don't thiink it'll do me much good though by the sounds of it, this farmer is also talking about auctions further from home to update his K, he's after a M model but will take a L if its nicer than his K, I have no idea how anyone who puts so few of hours can justify anything like that but when you've got the cash, justification has nothing to do with it, its more of a toy than a machine to use anyhow and there are a lot of them like it out there. CMSMOKE, thanks for the imput, did you ever work with a 88 or 89 model K, the service guy was thinking those were the years they did a transmission change and had a lot of problems but before I'd buy one he'd look up the serial numbers for me to tell me for sure, something about a completely different shuttle, transmission, rearend that caused problems and were not any good and couldn't be updated due to the design, any ideas on that? I'd have to agree about the 4x4, for me I'd just take my mid sized excavator instead, I really don't plan on using the bucket much anything but to shove the hole shut and do some backfilling on tile trenches, as for loading and hauling anything with the bucket its not my intention, I've got plenty of other machines to do those types of tasks with instead that would do a lot better job, I"ve run both 2w drive and also 4x4 and for what I do, I'd never really use the 4x4, also I sold my 4x4 pickups and went back to 2wd actual trucks and love them, they are big enough to actually do something with like pull air brake tag trailers. I found over the years for tiling I had to park my nice 4x4 pickup in the farmers yard anyhow and use my light 4 wheeler to get around at the farm and chase fittings and things, the gas cost to drive my pickups was killing me. To me the biggest thing is a cab, I don't care about air conditioning much, but when its cold out in the spring and fall and my hands, feet and body are cold I want heat and a cab to get out of the wind at least, anymore if it doens't have a cab on it I won't operate anything when its cold out that doens't, I've been there and done that long enough, that is the single biggest thing to me, way above and beyond 4x4 or extendahoe or any operating designs or controls. Its looking to me like this winter will be spent trying to buy something further from home or privatley from someone, I've called on a few K's in that 14-16K range and most were sold already.
First of all, try not to worry too much about what others are going to bid. It's good that you are doing your research to find what these things might be worth. Use this info and, more importantly, what budget constraints you have established to come up with a price that works for you. Since this is a sealed bid auction no one knows what the other person is bidding. It will be harder for people to get into, what I call, "auction fever" (when two or more people get fixed on an item and bid beyond it's real value-sometimes as much or more as a new item) so it may go for a more realistic price. The downside is that it may be harder to "steal it" (when nobody is willing to pay much, if anything, for it and you swoop in and buy it way below true value) since nobody knows how bad the next guy wants it. Suffice it to say that you have just as much chance to win the bid as the next guy. You had said that it is important to get a amchine at a price that, if you decide to bail, you won't get burned too bad when you unload the machine. Go to Ritchie Brothers (you'll have to register) and find auction results on whatever you are looking to buy(in this case the L series 580). This price, if it fits your budget, is a pretty safe bet that you will be able to unload it if you so decide. If this number is above your budget, use your budget number and if you get it...great. If not, keep shopping. Remember, this one is not the only one. The other advantage to this type of auction is that you don't have to be there during the auction. Check out the machine at your convienience. Send in, or deliver, your bid before the deadline. Most of the time you don't have to be present at the opening (check the specific rules for this auction). It does not matter who was neglecting the maintenance. It only matters wether, or not, the issues created by said neglect have been rectified (it doesn't sound like it) or if you can get it at a really good price, and are willing to fix it back up. The problem here is that it is very easy to spend more fixing a machine than it is to spend more up front for a machine that does not need fixing. An example of this is if you were to "part a machine together" (buy all parts individually) vs buy a complete machine. You would probably spend 6-700% more and you still have to assemble it. I learned on 2WD backhoes and used one (during a flood/emergency situation) 4x4 machine until I bought my own. So it was about 10 years of 2wd machine use. Most who are advocating against 4x4 are seem to suggest that getting thhrough mud is the only added benefit to this feature. This is simply not the case and many other advantages exist. I will list some as I see them. 1) Will help give the machine better over all balance. Most hoes have a rearward weight bias which can make the front bucket too light to work well, make the machine road poorly, and make it more dificult to feel grade changes. Chin weight and 4-in-1 loader buckets will also benefit balance. Case has an "over center" design and many will say that this resolves many balance issues. I think it helps but they are still too light up front IMO. 2) You will climb, and descend, steeper grades. Yes, I said descend. When 4x4 is engaged braking is transfered to the front through the drivetrain. 3) You will be able to push more dirt and, with the right operators, will experience less tire wear. I do not like Cases 4x4 system as much as others. IMO there is too much binding when turning. IMO this causes premature tire wear up front. This could be because the front wheels are so small and do more revolutions per mile or at least it could add to the issue. I don't like the smaller front wheels for a few reasons, tire wear being one of them. You have said that you won't need 4x4, or extendahoe, because you have other machines that can do the work you think those features are designed for or benefit. I'm sure this is true but the main benefit of a backhoe is the versatility, and these things add to that. Furthermore, you have said that you want a TLB so that you can road instead of haul when working close by. Said features will increase the opportunities that you can take advantage of that. This is a new venture for you and your son so don't tie one hand behind your back by reducing the versatility of the machine. This will only serve to reduce the job opportunities. Set yourself up to succeed. The cost of these items, especially on a used machine, are nominal when looking at the big picture. Other brands may offer similar opportunities as well. The series I & series II Cat backhoes have the same boom design as the E series Case but are, IMO, much superior machines in every respect, including support. I would recommend a newer machine, you may even consider a B model Cat, but I suggested the older ones do to there similarity to the Case (which you seemed to gravitate toward) and low price do to there age. BTW, if I had a choice, I would not buy a TLB that did not have 4x4, extendable dipper, and a cab with A/C.
Thanks, got to see the full effect yesterday of auction fever and watched the highest priced D sell in history. Yes you could say I'm going to get a case, I've got enough other case products around here and they might not be the best, they do work just fine and parts for me are easy to get and put on in most cases, cat is also good but my prior experience with cat isn't good so I'll stick with what works for me. Questions only lead to even more questions, so here's some more I don't want to sound dumb at but since I've never run one much I was wondering about, extra hydrualics on the boom for running a breaker, what model offered that and also are the buckets interchangable on the models of case and if so what models, someone told me last night that from the D on all buckets are interchangable all the way to the new machines out today, is that true? Also for a breaker do you just use different mounts and can the same one be used on a skid steer and also a mid sized excavator and only the mounts are different? Is there a foot vavle in the cab on the floor to run the auxilary hydrualics or is it electrically controlled with a switch? Yes my life has always been run by a budget, we usually start low and then work up from there, seems at times I'm the only one that does but as they say do what works or since I have no other choice, get used to it in life. I always compare things to ironplanet and also ritchie brothers for sale prices, some other sites as well. I"ve done the sealed bids thing before and never was successfull ever but as they say there's always the first right? I've been told the last few days about the balance with the backhoes and case and also cat and for now since we don't plan on using it even 500 hours per year, I'm not really concerned. We were using the farmers K yesterday since he was gone and we needed it, even put my wife in the cab some, wasn't the most progressive day but at the end we decided or shall I say she decided she liked the cab and the heat on the K and newer machines, so its looking like we're updating to a k or newer machine by the use of diplomacy, once the bookkeeper is happy lifes better for us all. As for the 4x4, extendahoe and now for a plumbed boom, the prices on those machines used are not that much more but first we'll need to find one worth taking home. Whats different on a L or super L verses the K or super K, what changes were made or updates or improvements done and in all realistically how many hours should a good machine have on it used out there to buy, there's no way a good used K or super K could actually hav only 3000 hours on it could it? The farmers K has by the hour meter 4950 but by the looks of the machine I'd say about twice that if I'd compare it to an excavator to wear and slop in things but I don't know. I understand about the front tire wear and things like that on case, but to me I"ve never worn any tire out on anything we've ever owned they always seem to be damaged first long before being worn out, hitting something somewhere along the line or a casing goes bad or whatever, tires are just another wear item to me and if your lucky enough to have a set last they dry rot off anyhow and you end up putting new ones on for that reason. Now for the mechanical 4x4, one of my rubber tired trenchers have it on it and that only has a few thousand hours on it as well, whats the life expenctancy of those units before the bearings, joints and drive knuckes are shot, like any 4 wheel drive prickup that don't last long enough to make it to be done again, on pickups we were always replacing joints and things, one reason I got rid of them for the 5 times a year I actually needed it, it was too expensive to have , that and we always ended up getting pulled out anyhow it seemed if we needed 4x4 we were usually in too deep by then to make a difference in the end anyhow, but the arguement around here is this, if your only planning on taking one machine to the jobsite what do you use to pull yourself out with if you get stuck? which brought about the whole discussion of does the 4x4 do much good when your already in too deep of sh@t to start with, I"ve always used to boom to push me out and around when I was in places like that and with a case with very little weight on the front end anyhow, just how much good does it acutally do? Just out of curiosity I asked the farmer what he does, his reply was go get something bigger to pull the K out with, does the 4x4 help and he said he didn't really know, when he's stuck he's stuck end of discussion. His prior backhoes were not 4x4 and he said he was getting pulled out about as much then as now, but his before hoes didn't have as good of hydrualics to help push himself out with either, so he couldn't really tell me much.
I can't speak intelligently on evolution of K to L model. I thought someone else had already done so in this thread. Buckets are interchangeable D, maybe even C, through M. The benefits (IMO) of 4x4 are listed in my previous posts. Extraction from mud is not one of them though I do think it helps. Small Case front wheels reduce ground clearance and thus take away from benefits 4x4 may offer for getting out of mud. I use loader bucket and backhoe to assist in mud extraction when necessary. A second machine has NEVER been required. My tires are lasting about 5,000 hours per set. I have not had to do any maintenance on 4x4 components. I did have a $2 snap ring break on the AWD shaft (inside the tranny). It cost me $6k to have Cat R & R the tranny and fix it. Breaker size and flow requirements are too specific for one unit to work on so many machines of different sizes. Any ma hine can be fitted to run a breaker but will be expensive to retrofit. Hydraulic (my prefered option) or electric activation are dependant upon who's kit you install so either can be had. If Case is your prefered machine that's OK. There are enough out there that one would be hard pressed to successfully argue that they are not good backhoes.
I suppose it's possible that 3,000 hour K machines are out there. I would think one would be hard to find though.
I found mine by talking to people who repair equipment. They know who needs to sell and the condition of the equipment. Ease of repairs and parts availability are big with them.
Ok after today we'll look for 4x4 no questions asked, we worked all day in the steady rain on a bean field attempting to tile in the absolute mud, in fact it was worse than that, we used to farmers K and between he and I we were digging in fittings, backfilling and digging rocks out of my trencher, my wife and kids were helping, after two hours we were soaked to the skin and spent the other 8 hours with water in our boots, we put the K to the test thats for sure, we spun more mud on the machine than I though was even possible, with it in 2w drive we couldn't even move let alone do anything, in 4x4 we were having problems to say the least but got the job done for the fall, only thing left is to do some back filling and we quit before we needed to be pulled out of the ponded water, to say the least I was impressed, so was my crew, if fact they were even amayzed we did a fraction of what we did today, maybe when its froze we can go back and finish up hauling out the rocks and backfilling. Since this came up many times today, how does quick tach work for buckets, we discussed even a frost tooth to help jerk out rocks from the trencher if we could switch back and forth during the day without having too much time involved, and to go from a 30 inch bucket to a 12 inch and back and forth during the day, someone I've talked to mentioned a hydraulic quick attach, never been around them on anything but skid steers is there anything like it for a backhoe?? It was mentioned a clam bucket for the front would add weight, never been around one at all, someone told me once that they really don't work good and thats all I know about them, first off is there certain things they work good on or is it just used as a dozer blade when the bucket poriton is tipped up. I've seen a few advertised with them but never really gave it much thought as to what they might be used for other than to add weight.
You should check this out. http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=7658725& The ad says it just has a bad engine, might be a good buy. That machine is going to have all the goodies and looks like its in pretty good shape. Just a thought......:cool2
wow, and I thought I tested the limits of my trailer at times...
Case has come equipped with a "quick coupler" since the K model. If you look at the pictures in the link in post #46 (top row, far right photo) it shows a good view of the design. Basically the back pin bracket is shaped like a C. One can engage the back pin with out removal from the bucket. This happens first and one lifts the bucket once the back pin is engaged. Bucket curl is then used to align the front pin which must be manually pushed into place (like both pins on most machines). A benefit to this design is the simplicity and it's inexpensive. The front pin is easy to align/install as the bucket is in the air because the backhoe dipper and bucket are always at the same angle. With most other designs this can be difficult to do when the bucket is on un-even ground. I had a hydraulic quick tach on my mini (operative word is HAD) and it was fantastic to not have to get out for bucket changes. Swaps took about 30 seconds. Unfortunately Bobcats design is too fragile. Said coupler now resides in the shed in a permanent state of dis-repair. Clam shell bucket, multi purpose bucket, 4-in-1 bucket are great tools that are much more than weight up front. Doze, grab, carry, pick up rocks , fine grade, clean up are all done better and faster with said bucket. They do, however, require a bit of a learning curve.
No doubt that trailer is way over loaded. Poor thing is being treated just like the backhoe appears to have been treated.
I have mixed feelings on going back to the fabricated steel boom as opposed to the ductile really. My big concern is we have now run the ductile boom machines for 21 years without a single failure. The only person I know that broke one, the hinge point of the boom to dipper got some side to side slack in it, and they had the idea that they could tighten the nut on the pin to take the slack out... DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS. IT WILL NOT WORK.. IT WILL BREAK THE CASTING... Other than that, I know of no first hand experience with breakage. I do know I have had morons that have rested the point of a breaker against the boom, and accidently hit the lever, causing the hammer to hit on the boom. You could see where it hit, but never had one crack or break. As for the quick coupler, my super K, Super L and Super M have all had the Case manual coupler like in the pic of the Super M for sale with the bad motor. It is worth it's weight in gold as far as I'm concerned if you need to change buckets on a regular basis. It's even better if you have enough of the small pins to leave one in every bucket. I can change a bucket by myself in about a minute with this system, closer to 30 seconds probably if I have someone on the ground to change the pivot pin out for me. It's really that fast and easy. As long as you keep your machine greased properly, the only tool you need is a set of snap ring pliers. I have ran rental machines that had the Wain-Roy coupler and bucket setups, and in my opinion, they are junk. Being fair though, these were rental machines, that probably get little care, and a lot of abuse... But there was so much slack and slop in these things that I hated them. On to 4in1 buckets... We had a JD 310SE 4x4 extendahoe with one, and the 4in1 was the only thing I really liked about that machine. That was the only non-Case backhoe I've ever had, and it just came in a package deal. We traded it on the 580M. I had ran a machine with a 4in1 before, we used to have a International 175C track loader with one, so I was familiar with the design. It was really handy on a backhoe. I never used it much as a dozer type blade, but more as a scraper or box blade type deal doing cleanup. Also works great for grabbing and carrying logs, brush, rocks or pipe. I even grabbed my forks with it to move plastic pipe around (never welded hooks on top of bucket for forks on it). I think you'll be pleased with your choice of 4x4. I never saw the point in it either, until I ran one with it. My thoughts were, we only really used the backhoes on city jobs, if we were in the mud we would be using a trackhoe anyway. But just the ease with which you can do tasks witht the 4x4 compared to 2 wheel drive is amazing. Getting a full bucket of material, you can ease into the pile, never spinning a tire, backfilling it'll push like a small dozer with no wheel spin. And then in mud, I can drive thru a lot of stuff I would be pushing and pulling myself thru with a 2 wheel drive machine. Extendahoe, I lived without fine till I had one... Wouldn't go back to one without it now. Not only for digging convience, but it's really nice when setting 20' joints of pipe to have a little extra reach. This Super M is the 4th machine I've had with it, and have never had any problems with the boom or extra hydraulics associated with it. Hope this is of some help to you, best of luck on your search.
I would not even bother with the Case coupler if I didn't have a back pin for each attachment. Without the extra pins it's the same as no quick coupler. I do not like the Wain -Roy coupler either. It does not matter if the unit is a rental or not. The mating surfaces will wear out regardless. This is where the slop is. The retention pin will get stuck and require a hammer too. I would rather just have the OEM pins than that system. My 416 is set up with no coupler and I have (5) buckets and a comaction wheel.
Really, the extra pins don't cost that much. I think I paid $70 for the last one I bought, although it's been a while ago. Even if you don't have extra pins, the coupler still makes it a lot easier to change buckets, just a matter of taking the back pin out of the bucket you're taking off, and installing it in the new bucket. Just one snap ring and washer to take off to change it. the nice thing about the coupler, is after you hook into the back pin with it, and pick the bucket up, your pivot pin is lined up already. Especially on uneven terrain, where one side of the bucket is lower than the other. Also, Vail makes a really good ripper that pins into the bottom hole on the back of the bucket, which butts up against the coupler when you rip. It doesn't work right with the old style linkage.
Went to look at the super L for sale on sealed bids, there is a few thing they forgot to mention before I came down, it appears to have about 5500 hours on it like they claim, not in too bad of overall shape, the tires all the way around are skins to say the least, what really bothers me the most is that for the last 5-8 years its sat in the salt shed and was used to load salt trucks with the machine, the door bottoms are rusted through, the panels under the doors are pretty well rusted out, the floor plates are pretty badly rusted, the brake pedals are really badly rusted, the whole front end looks like its taken a salt bath all its life, the front rims are so bad I think they need to be replaced from rust and the entire underbelly is a mass of rust. I got out of the guys there they are "starting" to have electrical problems from rusty terminals and things, and figured its about time to dump it before they start to have even more electical problems associated from rust and corrosion. Anyone had any experience with salt induced rust, I've been around some fertilizer equipment and a wash off won't stop the rust penetration and the never ending problems assocaite with it. Mechanically it seemed fine and the wear is within livable amounts, but it would have to be sand blasted to bare metal and put new doors on it, and then completely repainted and then I'm not sure it'll kill the rust from coming back, I've talked to several that had experice with salt equipment and they told me to walk away and don't look back, ever. Any ideas on your guys part on this subject, I walked away and was not really impressed from what I saw of the hoods and metal surfaces so badly rust pitted, I think in a couple years the hood will be completely rusted through, it is already in a few places where the metal doubles up on seams and things. I think the fuel tank will even be rusted through on the top shortly from what I saw, the underbelly is worse than that, they have already put new tie rods and a cylinder on it from being rusted out and siezed up and to me its just a start of things to come. My wife looked at it and said its not the only one ever made, lets look elsewhere for something oily looking from leaks would be far better than rust that never ends, she was concerned what the inside of the boom and laoder tubes would look like, it might be rusting from the inside out worse than the outside in, I'd never though of that at the time and no real way to look inside either
After reading your last post I am feeling very leary about that machine. Rust can be a bugger on body parts but corossion in the electrical system (commonly called cancer) can be nearly impossible to get rid of. I'm sure she'll be happy to hear this (be sure and show her this post) but I think your wife is right.
wow, you could tell from the pics that it was a salt loader. Ive seen a deere 310 that was a salt loader and the front bucket floor was rusted off, floorboards gone etc. How's jcb's presence in your area?
JCB's are not too common, there's only one ag dealer near me that handles them and from what I'm told parts are really high priced, and not stocked, everything has to be ordered and depending on what it is can take months to get. I've looked at them somewhat as well but kinda ruled them out, I've asked other brands if a Jcb was worth anything on trade in case I didn't like it and most told me not much in my area I've come across several other super L's coming up on sales that appear to be way better machines, and from the history of the auctions, might be a better deal all the way around for not much more money. I've spent a lot of time on the phone talking to anyone I know that works on machines with either a salt or fertilizer history and every one of them told me to hunt for a different machine than that one. Believe me the photo's don't do it justice from what I saw in person yesterday, we'll definately pass on this one. I've got plenty of time before next year and as was stated, there are a lot of them made, its not the last one to ever be sold, so we'll keep an eye out for whats coming up, several more super L's are coming up, one with 3400 hours and another with 5400 hours, both with 4x4 and extendahoe and cabs, the history is in the high teens to low twenty's on these machines, for super K's its in the low to mid teens, which is a better deal for the buck, about 5K difference in price, the K has less electronics on them but most are higher houred as well, tires run about 2000-2500 for all four so thats not a big deal in the long run for an entire set. Anyone have problems with the added electronics on the super L verses the super K?
I think you'll fight rust on any of these machines under the best of circumstances. I wouldn't go near one that showed advanced stages of rust. I took cardboard with me to crawl around under the machines and look for rust. Fasteners seem to be one of the first things to catch it. At least you have something to compare to when you look at the next one.
You can try to find something on here: http://www.i80equipment.com/speciality-equipment.shtml I've bought a couple machines off of there and the prices are always really good.
FNick, is there a reason you posted a link suggesting folks consider purchasing a machine from company directed by link, and it's not a backhoe/loader sales company, and it's the same company that you have linked in your signature line?
I'm still looking and now more confused than ever, I've looked at more junk machines than I thought ever existed out there and now we're expanding the search, into deere machines but know nothing about them at all. Can anyone shed any light on whats called the banana boom and what that means to the operation of a backhoe, I run excavators and know and understand they are the same design on the excavator booms and have seen them but never compared operation of them side by side, has anyone out there done that and translate for me whats the difference. The die hard deere operators in my area are telling me to not buy any backhoe that doesn' have a banana boom on it from any manufacurer, and case as of yet doesn't or ever did. We're looking at a few deere 310's an E a SE and also a G but probably not that new for the G, several deere guys told me to stay away from them they have a lot of electrical problems. Any ideas?
I've never heard of these electrical problems. It doesn't mean that they don't exist but I doubt it's a common enough problem that you will likely have a problem with every unit out there. IMO the "banana boom" is mostly a marketing tool. I have operated a long time prior to the availability of them, and a long time since. Cat introduced it in the B series and Deere followed suit a few years later. I think it adds some strength to the boom (after they got the design perfected, mine was replaced with updated version under warranty) as you don't see hardly any boom failures anymore. There may be some actual leverage advantages but I can't notice them. I remember Cat claimed an advantage for reaching over obstacles (like walls). This may have some merrit but, from what I can tell, it might give you a few more inches. It may offer some advantages in visibility. If you look at an excavator boom you can see more of a need for the design (especially when you consider how the boom rams are mounted). The backhoe does not mount the boom ram in the same fasion as the excavator. IMO Deere hoes are good machines. I would stick with the S (or "super") versions.
I've had 4 backhoes in my family since 1963. I'm 17, and going into the trade as soon as I'm done school. Operating backhoes is my speciality, so that's why I'm doing it. Ran case all my life, they are the best machine out there, i've heard too many bad things about cat, and deere, and other companys thaat think they have what it takes. I have a 06 super m series 2 bought it 4400 hrs on it. It is solid, and it the best shape a machine like that can ever be. The only thing I need to do with it is put on a hydraulic hose, and fix the ride control. Have pilots on it also, love it. My grandpa used to have a 1986 580 super Eand it was a good machine, loved it, and miss it, but the m that I have now is awesome. I probably get a older machine someday because with new machines, there are too many electronics, and that costs a lot to fix when there broken down. I'd be interested in a super L down the road or a super k. Also what really helps on the machines without ride control, is that I put my dipper, out 2 to 4 feet, trust me it helps, a lot you go faster, it's also a very comfy ride, and you can push more with it too I find, everyone should try this, and see what they think. Let me know,
I guess I'll pipe up here. I've been wanting a backhoe for a few years now... haven't seriously pursued anything until just recently. Honestly don't know what I NEED, just know that it's most likely better to be too big than too small. My other issue... I've never used a backhoe. That alone makes it hard to check one out. Unfortunately where I am, I typically will need to drive 1-3 hours to see something, so getting somebody that knows backhoes to go with me is tough. I have a small Kubota tractor with loader and scraper... so I have a bit of a clue what to look for, just don't know how to operate the backhoe. ANYWAY.... I've been reading around on here and gathering what info I can. My preference is to not spend over $10k if I can help it. Makes it tough from what I'm seeing though, as the older ones for less $$ can also have bigger problems. I'm guessing once I have it, it'll be lucky to see 30-40 hours of use a year. I have some bigger jobs I need to do now... but beyond that, who knows. Seems like I see more Case 580's around me than anything. I found a 580B that a guy has basically rebuilt everything on for $7500, looks new really,--- up to a 580 Super D that's extremely clean with about 4100hours for about $11,000. Anything beyond that pricing I haven't bothered with. I'm not even sure I'm really asking a question here... Is something like the older rebuilt 580B even something to consider... or should I really lean towards something bigger/newer?
Welcome motochris! If I had to choose between a 580B & a 580D with $3500 difference - I would go the D! (X eleventy thousand times) :yup It is ALOT easier to work on as all components are bolted to a chassis - rather than ARE the chassis like a B. + more power & easier resale when you don't need it anymore. $7500 for a B is alot of money, but if it has had alot of repairs done to it, it may be OK. If you pay less for another B, but you will be sure to spend dollars on it. In fact you should prepare to spend a few dollars on anything you buy.......
You make good points I wasn't aware of on the B chassis tractor, thank you. I'm afraid even a fresh older tractor will be less than what I want in the end. Obviously it'de be nice to spend less, but I'de kick myself for it not doing what I want. I'll most likely do way more loader work than backhoe work with whatever I get. That makes me lean towards a 4wd unit, but those tend to be even more money. I can get away with a 2wd. I'm more concerned about a quality tractor.
Any reason why I should pick a D model over a C model.. other than just being newer?
Welcome to the Forums motochris!:drinkup If you will be using the loader end more, I would highly recommend 4 wheel drive, it will make your life easier.
motochris, welcome to the forum and also the adventure of looking for a backhoe, I've looked at more junk out there than I ever knew existed and am still looking for the machine I can afford and yet not be a complete pile of junk, I had oil samples pulled on a deere 310e and had the paperwork done when the engine oil samples came back bad, now we're back to square one again. All the case machines I looked at were either 10k overpriced or had major issues that needed fixing. I'm not sure what type of work you'd be doing, or in what type of conditions, but if you can live with a 2 wheel drive machine, it opens up a lot of options for you, check out the sales sites around, ironplanet.com, ritchie brothers, purplewave, alex lions auctions, and a few others. I'd also agree with airman on the newer machine being a better deal. Do you need an extendahoe, or standard hoe? cab or open rops? As for not knowing what you need, everyone's opinion is based on what they need and use, so thus everyone has a different opinion, something to keep in mind, not that its a bad thing, just something to remember, as for what you need, give it your best guess and start somewhere, I started looking for a cheap bare bones machine, decided I wanted all the options available for a few dollars more, which is where I'm having problems finding what I want, the more options you set your mind on the harder it is to find a good machine that fits those criteria in the price range your wanting, I've already raised my price range twice now and I'm not going any higher due to the payback and hours I'd use the machine. Keep asking questions, these guys here can answer most any question you have, so don't be shy, they are a wealth of knowledge and are willing to give you information if you ask, most any model out there made or ever built someone here has run and put hours on them and has information to give, both good and bad points of the machines. Good luck in your search
Thanks for the input Randy and the list of additional sites. I hadn't seen or heard of those yet. My planned use is just around my property. I live on 10 acres in the desert...rare to see mud here. Mostly sand and clay based dirt. Other than building an arena for our horses... it'll be used for just basic backyard stuff. Hauling sand to the arena, hauling and spreading manure (though that job may be with the Kubota) etc. I don't have alot of work for it really, but one would sure make some tasks easier. That's part of my issue... for how much I REALLY need one, I could rent one and be ahead. That said, having one around, it would sure get used alot more than if I had to rent one. I'm waffling back and forth over to buy cheap and learn what I need from there or just go all in now. I found a 79 Ford 4500 in what seems to be fairly reasonable shape for about $5500. I'm having a buddy go look at it this weekend for me. It's diesel, hour meter shows about 2000 hours though the owner doesn't know if it's correct. He said he's had it about 7 years and put about 100 hours on it and the hour meter worked as it should that whole time. Gonna need swing cylinders resealed and a front tire.
I make my living with my equipment as do many, if not most, on this site. Much of the advice will come from that perspective. I would not buy this tractor because it won't fit the bill for me. Based on what you have said about your needs I would think that it is almost perfect, depending on what condition it's in. On the surface it looks fine for a tractor that has been sitting in the sun that long. The unknowns are the unseen. If I were looking at this machine I would work it for a while. Get it good and hot. Work it hard. You need to put it to the test to see if the engine, tranny, and hydraulics stay strong when hot. If anything acts funky it suggests it's time for replacment or rebuild of that component. I certainly like the price, again, if it's in good shape. Swing cylinder rebuild may run you around $500 each (my guess) at a hydraulic shop. 4wd will be very helpful in sandy ground, not just mud. I don't think you will find 4wd in a backhoe that is as old as that one.
As they say, use your best judgement on what you think you need and can afford, ironplanet, can give both auction results and also machine inspections to compare one to the other, a very useful thing, same goes for auction results at ritchie brothers, or www.rbauction.com . I try to compare asking and selling prices of machines, mainly because if I don't like what I buy, its a good way to figure out what you can sell the same machine for after your done with it, or if I want to sell it, most times anything I have to trade in isn't worth much on trade so I'm better off selling it outright somehow. Do some searches of a ford 4500 to see what they have sold for lately in not only your area but others, then do some math to figure out what the sales commission is going to be for the one selling it and then haggle on the price some to adjust it some if need be to come about the same price for the guy selling it anyway else, no need to pay retail if the seller is only going to get wholesale anyhow from anyone else out there, just a suggestion is all. I understand fully if you have basically no mud to contend with why spend the money on 4x4, by buying a cheaper machine you will also figure out exactly what you should have bought, seems like that's how I do things anyhow, the first time is the experiment to tell me what I should have bought instead or update to later on down the road of life. Renting can also do this for you if you can rent a machine somewhere out there to play with and find out what you like or dislike. As for operating the backhoe your looking at, just try it out, go play with it and then ask questions as to what things should act like or perform like from the guys here on HEF and they can tell you what you need to know about that machine. I've never ran a ford backhoe of that vintage before so I can't tell you much about it, other than make sure it runs good and has good hydraulic power and doesn't make weird noises and is jerky and all welded up or the pins and bushings are shot and there is considerable slop in the joints, go look at as many used backhoes as you can to compare one to the other, even if its not exactly what your wanting to buy, any comparison is better than none.
Well, everything seemed to work well on the 4500, but the engine was LOUD. My buddy said he's never heard a diesel so loud. (not exhaust, but engine noise) He's a pretty good judge of things even though he has never seen a 4500 either... so I plan to steer clear of this one. There's some guys doing work behind my business with a Case 580L. I hope to see if the operator has time to show me the basics on how it operates. That would be extremely helpfull.
You mentioned machine inspections on Ironplanet.... that alone has me seriously considering a purchase thru them. When you don't know alot...at least SOME sort of input from somebody else is always good. Reading some of the stuff reports is helping me to understand alot as well. Anybody know how reliable they are for that?
I have not run one of the Ford 4500s like what you are looking at. But I have run plenty of 545s, 555s, and 655s. They all were fairly loud. In particular, if my memory serves me correctly, the 545s stood out as very loud and they are based on the same tractor as the 4500. I am not there to hear for myself, so use your best judgement regardless of what I say, but the loud engine may be normal.
Maybe you could have Carl Sharpe look at it. He has experience with Ford box blade tractors, also known as skip loaders. I think he lives in So. Cal. too. Look him up (he has a thread on this site about skip loaders, in the general category, I think) on this site and send him a PM. Even if he can't make it out he might be helpful.
Good to know.... I found a 4500 local that runs but has lots of issues..(enough that I'm not interested).. maybe I'll go check it out just to hear it run.
I did just that, thank you. On another note--Massey Fergson Model 300 loader/backhoe..... any reason to steer clear of such a thing? This one is close enough I can check it out myself fairly easily. Rebuilt diesel motor 200 hours ago, numerous new service items, etc. On the cheaper side of my budget.
I use a Ford 4500 and the engine is louder than any of the other backhoes or tractors I have owned. There is an old thread on this forum that mentions how loud a 4500 is. It talks about "that famous Ford 4500 knock" or something to that affect... I'm glad I didn't let the noise keep me from purchasing the backhoe...it has been a great machine. It is old, but very strong and has never let me down.
Thanks Frisky! Maybe I can use my ignorance to bring the price down... "It's louder than any tractor I've heard... scares me, how about THIS much?"
The ** tractor sold before I could get there... ah well. The current plan is to keep looking for something like a Case 580D and see where I end up...
Looking is a lot of work.
motorchris, ironplanet is very accurate on the their inspections, a lot more in depth than most any individual would do on their own, I've looked at some machines that inspections were done and I was impressed, I like to use them to compare auction prices and also have the information to back it up just exactly what condition the machine was in, how much wear were on things, what the oil samples were like, etc, etc. As they say there was more than one machine made out there to look at and also buy, if one slips by, there are plenty more to come your way. So to sum it up, keep looking and asking questions.
I was amazed after reading through all the related threads here that there were so many problems over the years with CASE backhoes. Never heard anybody diss them until I got here. I was looking to buy an older one, but chuck that. Back to the drawing board.
Bluetop Man, I don't want this to turn into a 'who makes the best hoe debate'. But, buying a machine, especially one for a property owner who is looking to purchase something on a limited budget - can be a little daunting. I'm not sure just how 'old' were you thinking..... Machines built in the 60's or 70's are going to be risky buying regardless of make. Don't be fooled in thinking Case made a bad hoe - they were world wide market leaders in those days - & continued to be till the last 20 yrs or so. The 580C for example, was YEARS ahead of any other maker with the component designed chassis. Sure they had a poor brake design, & the transaxles were built a little on the light side, but it is cheaper & easier to repair a 580C than say a **, IH, JCB, JD or Ford hoe of the same era. Parts for the Case machines are readily available from a HUGE variety of sources & they are not expensive. Maybe the reason 'so many problems' are discussed on HEF about the Case Hoe, is because of the sheer number of them that have been built & sold, & that there are just SO MANY of them being used by private owners who have basic mechanical repair skills/knowledge & come here looking for help. Every make of machine has its good & bad points, I'm just sayin, don't write off the thought of buying a Case, just because it may seem to dominate the pages of an internet forum.
Exactly the words that I was going to use alrman...you just beat me to it.
What they said... Case backhoes dominate the backhoe population here at least 2 to 1 over all other brands combined.
i mentioned to some friends the other that I was looking at a used Case backhoe and one said to look at JCB and the other said to look at Cat. Case was my first choice and looking at prices for Cat they're about 15 % higher. After doing some checking into JCB i prefer the Case. it seems to me in our area you get more Hoe for less money with a CASE.
If you want fast like a snake,doing lots of easy shallow digging such as septic systems,and you want cheap,get a Case.If you want and need something with more balls and want longevity,get a Cat or Deere.
Around where I am, it's all Case, but some other guys have Cats , or Deeres. I've seen 1 jcb around, and that's it. They all seem to be good machines.
Did some checking around today and mentioned JCB. I was told that in our area parts are hard to get and the Metric threads on some hoses make you require OEM parts. That's just was in was told. So far best bang for buck appears to be Case.