1983 510b ...can't find any leaks ..this problem has got worst over a few years...I have to be burning the anti freeze...it smokes a little at times big clouds... I have lost a gallon of coolant in 3 hours of running.....so its time for a head gasket...I get it all apart and it seems to have been rebuilt maybe just before I bought it 16 yrs ago ...i put 1500 hrs on it now its at 7600...it seems to have very little cylinder wall wear...head gasket shows no sign of leaking?seems all there....Im not sure with a sleeved engine is there a common problem with o-rings leaking ? or something I should do more...or is just a head gasket the trick?
If you get coolant into the combustion chamber, it turns to steam and does a great job of cleaning all the carbon off. It will look like new parts. Is this gas or diesel?
If the coolant is leaking into the oil pan there will be a sludge in the valve cover. If it's clean get the head pressure tested. Later Bob
Did you get the head pressure checked? if the coolant was leaking into the exhaust it wouldn't "steam clean" any cylinders, might not show up in the exhaust manifold either? Also, have you checked the head and block for warp? liner projection? If the o-rings were leaking, coolant would show up on oil analysis, but then again if you were leaking that much coolant into the oil it would show up when the rod went through the block.
Yes one cylinder intake valve is shiney clean....no carbon build up anywhere just dark metal accept for the one cylinder intake valve....yes a milky sludge build up in valve cover....It dripped out the valve cover drain hose while running....i laid a framing square across the block and it does have small gaps in the middle...this engine ran ruff so I turn up the idle it smooths out and 1000-1200 rpm...but it ran and started good...a few years ago it did dump anti freeze into the block enough to over fill it, so it has had issues for a while ...I always check the crank case oil level and smell for anti freeze and caught it with nothing but oil in it. It passed the radiator 15 lbs pressure test. so its only when it heats up. I'm thinking head gasket will fix because it is minor leakage?
I had a similar issue. Bought an older MF60 and it had an oil fouled rad. The rad was toast but he oil in it had me worried, since these older massey's are so hard to get parts for. Did some research,,, bought a "Combustion chamber tester" from Napa. This will check your rad to see if there's any combustion leaking into it. Works great, on diesel or gas. Anyways, I had a leak and didn't want my new rad to get fouled up so i had two choices, replace the head gasket or try this other stuff,, "Blue Devil", so I tried the blue devil (do a search on google for it),, I gotta say, this stuff is awesome, use it as described. I suppose my leak wasn't that bad but it did have one, and afterwards, no more leak detected. My suggestion ,, buy both products I mentioned, one to test,, and the other to cure the problem, I'm sure you won't be disappointed. If you need any info on how to apply this stuff, just let me know.
Like hookedondiesel said, gas in the coolant is another thing to look for. I'd have agreed with him, but it sounds like you have the head off already. Do you have feeler gauges to measure the block "gaps", they're only a few bucks if you don't have some. Sorry, but your engine doesn't sound too promising, have you tried to find a used engine? or do you have the engine out already? If you want it done right, take the engine apart and take it to a machine shop. Better yet, check the parts yourself to see if it's salvageable, to save you the time and $$$ of having a machine shop tell you it's junk. A kit will cost around $1,000 (little less aftermarket, lot more from Deere) assuming the block, head and crank are good. If any of those aren't usable, consider a used engine. Or just throw a head gasket at it and see if it holds, doesn't sound like you're using it full time.
your right it is a part time at the dirt pile thing...its a diesel and I did not do all the checks I should of....but for sure its losing antifreeze its NOT blowing into the radiator...I just drained the oil and there is not a drop of antifreeze in it...so the engine is drawing in antifreeze and burning it best i can tell. With this condition it runs OK amazing enough. Its i have caught it dry on antifreeze every time I open the radiator to check. I have looked and looked for even a drip...NOTHING is found. this has been going on for 300 hours or so. I will have a machine shop look at the head. I am thinking that there is a seal leak on a sleeve that puts antifreeze on the head in a flat area then turns to steam and finds its way to the crank case and out as vapor. I don't really want to pop them sleeves out and put new o rings on them. maybe a coating of sealant around the sleeve crack?thicken the gasket in that area? I just don't see any signs of the route that it has taken out.
number one cylinder intake valve is shiny plus the valve cover above that area has a clean area with no sludge....valve seat leak?..the machine shop is going to pressure test the head
Valve seat ? Probably not . Valve guide bore is most likely. That would equate to a cracked head.
oh boy cracked head ...well at least I can get a rebuilt one for $625+...the machine is probably worth it.
well the head pass a 30# test so I put it back on and put on all coolant hoses and connections and add water then pressurize to 15# and I got drips from block....even though there was no sign of coolant in the oil pan? I have not started or heated up the engine maybe the sleeves need to be warm to consider it a problem? ...usually you don't have pressure without heat they are a simple o-ring seal around cylinders sleeves.?
Where exactly is it dripping ? There should not be any drips anywhere after everything is bolted and torqued correctly. (You said it has a shiny intake valve and shushed up valve cover.) That tells me you have a serious leak internally.
well the head pass a 30# test so I put it back on and put on all coolant hoses and connections and add water then pressurize to 15# and I got drips from block....even though there was no sign of coolant in the oil pan? I have not started or heated up the engine maybe the sleeves need to be warm to consider it a problem? ...usually you don't have pressure without heat they are a simple o-ring seal around cylinders sleeves.?
It appears to be leaking into 1 cylinder, the drip is coming from edge of piston down from cylinder ....now that I can believe..because i never saw any in oil pan....I will put is back together and hope that heating it up and re torque ing head will solve leak? any advice? head did check out for flatness..
I added water to test head gasket before I Finnish putting everything together...I am just not sure I can do that kind of test
It started right up...and I let it get warm ....it ran a little smoother...still had the hic ups as it idled like it did before...I let it run for 30 minutes then pull the valve cover and its soaked with oil/water ...it is coming out of crankcase through the push rod ports equally all 8 of them...I put valve cover back on an look at blow by through a clear hose...obvious steaming......I believe the o rings on the sleeves are leaking.....when running the exhaust is clear and the radiator is not pressurized...maybe new pistons and sleeves will smooth out the idle....
Sounds like you have a cracked block.
The cracked block is indeed a worrisome cause ... from reading this, what could make the block leak [now] when it didnt leak before? Could the head gasket, or the head gasket installation process be a contributor to this? Perhaps the headgasket isn't sealing the passages where the coolant 'water' crosses from the head to the block and the water is leaking into the oil drain back..... On this quick search of the web regarding head gaskets, Deere company describes variations of their gasket and a couple aftermarket gaskets....the comparison is intended to encourage purchase of the correct gasket from the OEM. https://jdparts.deere.com/partsmkt/document/.../HeadGasket_Flyer.pdf I have had head gasket problems with big block chevies, a common, common engine where most bolt em up and floorboard em without thinking, and the problems due to the incorrect or incorrectly made aftermarket gasket... On a typical offroad diesel, is there sometimes a shim procedure to address the liners' ht? Putting gasket sealer on a gasket that has chemical sealant is another way to buy yourself a leak. >>>>>> Maybe we will learn some more from bigboytoy...
Cavitation A pinhole in a liner could cause this. Have you added any Supplemental Coolant additive to your coolant to prevent cavitation of a liner since you've owned it? It would have been good to check the liner projections when you had the head off to see if they were at the correct height. Usually if they're not right, you will get a pressurized radiator though. If it's leaking at the o-rings on the liner, the coolant would go into the oil pan. It's burning it somewhere, and it sounds like cylinder #1 from when you found the coolant leaking down the side of the piston. You probably have some coolant mixed with your oil and you just can't see it.
thanks for the interest I really appreciate the input...I did use copper coat on a head gasket that looked different than what i pulled off...but...symptoms did not change much ....the liner projections were not checked...what should they be?...remember the clue about the steam being in one spot on valve cover that has changed to everywere...but this last one is more accurate...instead of one possible location I see equal steam blowing up from 8 push rod ports turning top of valve cover milky in just 30 minutes of run time ..I drained the oil and it was all oil ..the exhaust when running is clear...it hic ups every 3 seconds or so only when idling....this tells me it is blowing into crank case as steam...its also likely the rings are allowing blow by back to crank case because of engine wear 7600hrs...it comes apart alot easier now. ...d9gdon...leaking o rings in to pan would be in the fluid form or steam?...and no on the coolant liner cavitation additive whats that?..I have tried stop leaks of various type over the last three years....
You need to examine your old head gasket or take it to the machine shop that pressure checked the head. Someone should be able to tell if it was blown in the first place. Then you say it was different from the new one; are you sure it was the right one to use? Double check with whoever you bought it from and make absolutely sure it was for this application. I doubt it was blown in the first place, I think your trouble is with the liners. You have to use SCA in your cooling system to prevent electrolysis. You've had it for 16 years so it's gone some time without SCA's. Here's some cooling system propaganda from Deere about it and their antifreeze: http://www.deere.com/en_US/ag/servi...rs/common_stories/diesel_engine_coolant.html# That "steam" you're seeing coming up from the push rod holes is blowby from worn parts that now happens to contain real steam cause your engine is burning coolant somewhere. That's why that hiccup (miss) is there at an idle. One test you can do is to crack the injector lines at the pump one by one and see if it starts missing worse when you do it. The one that doesn't make it miss worse is the cylinder that has trouble. Heck, you've already identified the cylinder(s) if you saw coolant leaking past a piston(s). Pull the oil pan again and pressure up the radiator and check each cylinder for leakage. Find out which ones are leaking. If it's not the head or the gasket, then it has to be either the liner or the block. Just have to keep eliminating stuff. That stop leak isn't going to work on combustion pressures. Find the real problem and fix it or park it until you do. O-ring leakage from the liners would be liquid. You can't say you don't have coolant in your oil unless you do an oil sample. Dollars to doughnuts, you do. Bad for bearings. Bearing goes out and takes out a high dollar cylinder block equals a helluva lot bigger problem than you've got now.
I didn't see where you had already examined the head gasket. That smoke is a very big clue that it's burning coolant.
As far as SCA is concerned, most "DIESEL" antifreeze contain this additive to avert "cavitation". The only engine's that I'm aware of that were prone to cavitation were the 7.3 diesel's. These had to be monitored for their sca levels due to the thin wall's when produced. It seems that the problem got worse "after' you installed the new head gasket. My guess would be it was not correctly installed and or torqued to specs. Remember, water jackets in the engine only carry about 15lbs of pressure, whereas the compression of the engine is much higher, also, engine oil pressure is in the area of 50 to 60lbs, any leak out will have no choice but to go out into the water jacket area and into the rad, unless the leak is in a no pressurized area, such as the lower end of the block.
the head has been to a machine shop it checked out good with a simple 30# pressure test...the gasket matched accept for color and thickness maybe...I have removed the head again still no obvious trails through the gasket....it appears to have sealed just fine....I am looking closer at the cylinder walls they are not so perfect they could have a micro crack there somewhere.. the radiator is clean no trace of milky oil or sludge ...the exhaust when running is clean accept for a few months ago it blew a lot of white smoke for a while but that was temporary...it makes sense that it would be an o ring or a sleeve crack something that would vary with heat.... I know its making me a little crazy but i like this engine...I like the in frame rebuild thing ...most of the time it just barely gets warm only when I drive it to location at 2500rpm for 30 minutes does it start to heat up...
The only places that coolant could get to the cylinder to run down past the piston would be, Head gasket or pin hole in the liner due to cavitation. If the head gasket looks good I would be looking at the sleeve very close for pin holes.
When you pull it down, have the machine shop magnaflux the liners. Probably cracked. From my experience, cavitation is mainly in the head. The water is hottest there, most likely to start the steam bubble thang and eat away the head.
thanks your input is appreciated...I did not realize how hard it is to see these flaws until I saw some pictures online...I should be more familiar I have been passing x-ray , magnaflux, die, sona. etc.. tests and inspections for twenty years as a pipe fitter. I have not been rebuilding engines. And I realize that theory is what I am missing...thanks for your interest.
The John Deere that was being discussed in this thread had very similar problems. I think you will the find information in post #32 & #40 that will be relevant to your problem. It is in this Thread - HeavyEquipmentForums
Did some research on liner pin holes. It's the vibration of the liner against the coolant; the liner moves out as the cylinder fires. Then moves back in after the pressure wave passes. It's that movement that creates a low pressure area just above the liner. Gas bubbles form, explode, blasting the metal away. The additives form a barrier on the metal. The cavitation blasts the barrier, not the metal. Learn something new every day...
sound almost the same problem Tinkerer and I got the pistons out ...I now realize this engine was never rebuild I have date stamped on rod bearings indicating 1981 on my 1983 510b...I think I have spotted the leak in a liner there are some fine cracks with skid marks trailing from them. see attached...I will order rebuild kit today..
It took about two hours but after I dried everything off I noticed a bead of coolant trailing from this crack....its the same sleeve that had the drips on it earlier when I did a pressure test...100% identified.
Glad to see you have the problem ID'd. Good luck with it. It'll do many more years of service.
That Is good to hear. Let us know how the rebuild turns out. Be sure to have the valves reground and the valve guides checked. It will be money well spent now than later.
check out the pin hole issue in photo...it effected only one cylinder...I am yet to remove the main bearings, I hoping the crank drops a little to swap them out, any thoughts?
The crank ought to drop far enough if you loosen all the main caps off for you to be able to roll the new main bearing shells into place. That pinhole in the liner is as good a reason as you'll ever see to spend some money on decent antifreze/coolant once you've got the engine rebuilt and you're sure that there are no internal or external leaks in the cooling system.
well I was hoping it would be something simple like getting the correct head gasket....you are now able to proceed with repair knowing what was the problem...
Was it the side toward the water pump ?
#two liner facing to the side with the oil filter which is mounted there...I would of thought it would be more random....no other liner had a single pin hole?...sometimes i wonder if the science JD came up with is possibly a cover up for simply a bad casting?
I'm pretty sure the oil cooler is mounted directly under the oil filter base on those engines. Maybe that has something to do with it. Possibly turbulence or a chemical reaction between the cooler material and the liner or just a good place for rusty debris to lodge between cooler and liner?
the cooler is closer to #1...on that side of block you have the push rods passages and cam...block casting looks unaffected in that area...I could not get one of the hydraulic lifters? out due too a mounting bolt for the filter through the block, but it was to high up to effect its movement....the casting business is not so perfect? probably simple visual inspections from underpaid workers...It got 7600hrs without blowing up..it started leaking at 6700hrs?..maybe the electrolysis attacks the weaker areas in a casting?...coolant movement creates a small voltage, if the material it is moving across has a spec of dissimilar material in it, it gets a different charge than the material around it, thus causing a flow to or from to equalize the voltage. ...copper pipes were thought to be the pipe of the future until the pin hole thing showed up. water had iron flakes in it, when a flake sticks to the side wall it fizzes until a hole develops...you see the fizz evidence when you are replacing the pipe. they use pecs now with headers in residential but thicker copper (L) or (K) is still the industrial pipe used mostly because it can take a beating from things around it. that's what a dumb pipe fitter knows about it.
That second picture looks like the damage is down low where the o-rings seal it to the block. The oil cooler would be in that area. Maybe someone replaced that liner with an aftermarket version at one time...no telling. Or maybe they replaced the other 3 with aftermarket liners and that's the original liner that went bad. Those hour meters are always suspect.
Ok got it back together with the inframe rebuild kit....started right up....blow by is now zero....idle doesn't hic up any more but it does seem to vary from 1000 to 1200 rpm in steady cycles every 2 seconds it goes away at 1500rpm, that may be because nothing has been done to the injector pump...I now have a new injector that is leaking diesel right at point of entry, that must be from higher compression, I tried an additional o ring, it slowed it down, I guess I will add a sealant to the lower seal next..any ideas..other than that I'm on my way thanks for the help.
If the fuel is coming back out of the head get it fixed soon. A lean fuel mixture in that cylinder could be bad news. I would suggest a new injector.
that injector just slide in to easy....i took Teflon tape and thickened its Teflon seal ring til it was stubborn to push in ...and the leak stopped