I had the engine on my D6H overhauled after 16K hours but??? Too back up a little it was starting to get low on power,slow to rev up and smoked a lot more.First thought was turbo getting bad.With excess oil use, leaks,hours and the other problems decided to do the complete overhaul. The Cat dealer did an out of frame overhaul.Complete rebuild from top to bottom.Most everything was new or rebuilt to spec.New turbo, fuel pump complete rebuild.Was run on dino! After getting it up and running everything was good except the power! It has been weak every since and still blows excess smoke.I complained ,but they said just needed broke in. The rpm is great, just when you start to push half way into the blade full of dirt engine starts lugging down. Haz of smoke from stack without load and the same with load.Same problem as before so????? I was reading about the left pump on the backhoe thread ,could it be that? Also talked to my Cat mechanic and mention bad(new reman turbo).His response was it either works or it fails? I asked to check boast,but never got around to it. Would like some suggestions where to start looking?:usa
Just a Thought Have you unhooked your fuel line and blown back into the tank with compressed air. Maybe you have some trash in your fuel line.:beatsme The good thing about blowing out your fuel line is it don't take long and doesn't cost much. I hope it's a simple fix for you.
Do not forget to check the air filter also and the air ways
More Details Here is the thread on lift pump for backhoe ,so that was part of why i started this thread and my problems with the dozer. As far as fuel to pump that was checked and had good fuel flow from tank to pump before engine overhaul.Plus there is prinary fuel filter before pump with metal screen.That was checked and ok.Plus did the air cleaner thing. Before the overhaul the engine was getting slow to gain rpm and more smoke.With 16k hours just figured it was the turbo was getting weak? The turbo thing has been discussed on here a lot. My thought was it has to be the reman turbo or the rebuilt fuel pump. The pump was suppose to be a complete rebuild to spec alone with everything else.May not have replaced the lift pump? I can see this for rpm ,about what about the extra smoke????? Don't know about the lift pump thing,so the above thread got me to thinking. Machine still smokes as before and slow to gain and hold power underload,same as before complete overhaul.Better ,but you can notice it just the same! I was hoping for new ideas as far as the fuel pump,lift pump, and turbo ? I have over forty year experience with dozer ,but this is a new one and Cat didn't want to deal with it when on warranty,now i would like to try and find the problems. Sorry for the long post ,but just tring to get all the info as to what has happened or didn't happen.Thanks:usa
I'd have to say initially that someone messed up the pump settings when the pump was gone thorough. There is no reason for a completely O/hauled engine to smoke or have low power problems. Do they have a dyno printout? On the other hand, you may have transmission or convertor trouble that is bogging the engine down. If it was plugged fuel lines or filters, you would not have a smoke problem. Same with the transfer pump. I see that this problem started before the O/haul. You may want to get your drivetrain checked out before spending more on the engine.
Hi Constructo. Jut a few thoughts on your problem. Possibly the hydraulics are loading the engine down. Does it seem kind of sluggish to rev up when in neutral? If you run it at high idle and top-out the blade/tilt cylinders, does it make a difference to engine speed? Does it have a ripper valve fitted but no ripper? Is the hydraulic temperature OK? Check for brakes binding. Put it on a slope and into neutral. It should freewheel easily even on a slight grade. Is the tranny temperature OK? Does it have radial seal air filters or the old style with the bolt-in secondary? If it has the old style, make sure the secondary filter is new. You can't easily tell if these are clean by looking at them and they often get overlooked because they're not so easy to replace. If the engine has been rebuilt and dynoed, I would say the chances of it being an engine fault are slim (but not zero). If the fuel pump has been overhauled then the transfer (lift) pump would have been done at the same time. Let us know how you go. Good luck....
Update to questions No dyno printout that i know of,but will check.Had Cat mechanic call and ask a bunch of questions. Transmisson and hydraulics has been fine before and after,the problems is it still act as before ,with some better performance,but by not much.Should witht he wear factor from 16k hour to 0 or you would think. At the time i did the engine,i did complete redo from raidator to the trans(but not the trans Roded and boiled the raidator,new fan pullys,new engine oil cooler,new transmisson oil cooler, rebuilt the convertor,lots of new hoses why we we where we could replace them.Also converted the air filter over the adapter to use the new style air cleaner. The engine doesn't heat or does the convertor run hot. This a dif steer machine and everything works great.Transmission is strong.No binding of the brakes and roller easily on incline in netrual. So thats why i'm confused with all this done acting much like it did before all the above work. Still looking for help here,can they still check boost on the newer turbos,like they could the older ones.Mechanic says it either works or it don't. I keep going back to the why before and still now thing,with all this work:beatsme:usa I might add that i bought this machine new(one owner) 1988 S/N3ZF0848
Yes, boost pressure can be checked. Also try a stall test with an accurate tachometer. Let us know the serial number of both machine and engine and I'll let you know what the figures should be.
The dozer is a D6H XL machine 1988 model.I have the manufactures certificate of origin even ,believe it or not? Invoice date 11/22/88 21years old Bought new from Gibbs/Cook Equipment Co. Des Moines,Iowa Correction the machine S/N is 3ZF00878 Engine S/N 08Z48770 engine arr# 7C0501 Transmission S/N 20E01120 trans arr# 9W1720 6SU Blade S/N 1CH01557 $178,225.00 Cab H/AC 7 roller frame. It has been kind of my proud and joy until now just needs a little help) like all us when we get old:Banghead.Really don't want to give up on it,unless it giveup on me completely,besides a little late now :beatsme When i did all the above work above i always try to do things right the first time,and plan on keeping the old tractor until i retire or die off first? With the clock at 16K the machine had the orginal turbo,everything except waterpump,batterys,starter,belts,and of course undercarriage. Anyway what else can you think of trying ???? I will be getting the mechanic back over sometime when the weather gets better,when ever that will be and work like to try something if you all can come up with some new? Any way to check fuel pressure? Again thanks:usa
I would think that a fellow that has done this much work to his machine has for sure replaced the air filters and checked the air ducts. Is it excessive black smoke or blue smoke? I'd be surprized if you said blue. You seem confident it's not a problem in pumps, hydraulics, or drive train. The thing that bugs me is your original post. Your "Cat" dealer did an out of frame overhaul on the complete engine and put it on a dyno. You said when you put it in service you noticed a lack of power. It seems that if Cat did everything properly, if the engine had a power problem, or anything out of spec for that matter, it would have shown up on the dyno. As for the "just needs broke in" response, it's just my opinion, that's what I call bull excrement! It seems you can only have one of two possible problems; 1) excessive load on the properly running engine from whatever, or 2) you still have an engine problem. If you in fact do not have an excessive load problem and your getting excessive black smoke, then the fuel to air ratio is off, more fuel than there is air in the combustion chamber to burn the fuel, black smoke. Fuel pump not calibrated correctly or turbo not providing air properly. Could muffler possibly be clogged up??? Just a thought. Good luck and keep us posted.
Construct"O, What a mystery. So the culprit was thought to be the engine. The engine was overhauled put on the dyno and passed. To me that kind of rules out the engine, providing it is getting air and fuel. So next would be what all hooks to the engine. Atcoequip asked; Could muffler possibly be clogged up?? That to me seems like a possibility if the muffler was reused or incorrect. To me there are 2 basic possibilities, Air out restriction like the muffler Or an extra load somewhere Converter has been rebuilt so wouldn't think it would have the exact same symptoms again. Somebody didn't switch your motor oil for 90 wt did they? First guess Muffler. Next guess: the hydraulic pump is causing the load, but don't think there is anything wrong with it. Think there is a hydraulic accessory valve that has somehow gotten to the raise or lower position causing a constant steady pull.
i am not a mechanic however have owned lots of diesel engines in trucks and earthmoving equipment, me experience is that no matter how worn out a diesel engine is the power does not change much, i own a 1985 volvo 4600 front end loader, the cylinders were so worn it had practically no compression, had to use aerostart to start it even when it was hot, used heaps of oil,ran hot, it was down a little on power but not much, rebuilt it eventually because it kept running hot. to sum up being worn should not have much effect on power, you have another problem and they have failed to find it.
Can't post enough info everytime with out writing a book sorry ! The muffer might be a check,but was thinking we put new one on when reinstalled the engine ,if not will start there.Good idea,i know it doesn't rattle or anything like the baffle is lost inside.Need to check to see if it was changed. The smoke is black,looks like to much fuel,but runs like its low !!!!!! As far as the dyno ,the mechanic questioned them on it and they said it was with in spec,to them and you or me who knows what was spec.I did find out later that since the engine was going to have 2 year or 2 thousand hr, warranty that is probably was set up on low spec or fuel. If low fuel why the smoke thing,sorry still stuck on that as an issue? Just doesn't make sense it acts(slow to gain rpm) and blows smoke like before the overhaul. I also have a older D6R that blows very little smoke and will blow the doors off the H. When the H was new is was a strong runner,but not anymore. Guys i know my machines,with forty plus years and as an owner operator and one man machine most of it's like you can feel and tell when your machine isn't performing.I have always been a person that can walk around anyone machine and pick things apart that the operator couldn't see. Anyway the warranty is over,the two years is gone,so i'm on my own.This has been on going for two years. More to the story after the warranty went off the mechanic admitted that it was probably set low spec.So he turned the fuel up 3/4 turn and its helped,but some power wise?????? The smoke stayed the same.If anything the RPM is higher then before because when backing up it will outrun the R(which is running 2050 rpm by the in dash tac) I have had and have turned up older D6D (they have to be shimed) not just turn the screw.It would kick ***. and blow smoke like the H does now. I'm not looking to make a hotrod just good old study power. I hate to repeat my self,but when you decelrate and then open it up it dogs along not that snap to wide open rpm ,like the D6R does. The D6R pump went bad(not start good when hot) so took the pump off and rebuilt at local injection shop,the pluggers and barrels was shot ,worn bad,but other then hard start still pushed hard.Put back on and it really performs and very little smoke.Go figure? Anyway getting off some here,just trying to fill in more blanks. You know how the turbo on most good running machine usually always squark,the H just doesn't cut it there either.Still looking????? Hang in there with me guys,if you got any ideas:beatsme:usa
Hi Constructo Hi idle should be 2130rpm +-60. Stall speed should be 1600rpm with boost of around 10psi. Full load speed is 1958rpm with a boost of 12psi. As you say, the smoke is a good indicator. The bottom line is smoke+low rpm=overload, assuming the engine is in good condition, which it is. So, first thing would be to check the engine high idle rpm. If you can't make 2130rpm and you're getting black smoke then you've got a parasitc load somewhere. I think you need to confirm that the hydraulics are OK. Does it have a ripper valve? Does it have a ripper? I ask this beacause if it has no ripper and the lines have been blanked off, the ripper valve could be stuck open and dragging the hydraulics down. You also have the transmission pump driven direct from the engine. This is a (I think) 3 section pump. (Assuming this is a TC and not direct drive machine). It's possible (but not probable) that this could also cause extra load on the engine.
Hello Construct'O, Can you get to your turbo and spin it with your fingers... see that it spins free? Also... your machine does not have a waste gate??? One more thing... you mentioned a modification to your air filter... is there anything that might be out of whack there? OCR
The muffler theory is good. You may also want to check you have the correct turbo fitted. It should be a 7C8632 or an 0R6342, but this is an outside bet.
I mentioned the muffler trying anything possible. I don't know what the D6 has, but a lot of modern machines have spark arrestor mufflers which can clog with carbon over time. If the muffler gets clogged up and doesn't provide a relatively free path of exhaust, then exhaust pressure on the exhaust manifold increases. When the piston is on exhaust stroke, this pressure keeps some of the exhaust gases in the combustion chamber, which would have an affect on the air/fuel ratio of intake and compression stroke. One thing you could try, remove the muffler. Remove the covers on the side of the engine compartment, then operate the machine with no muffler and see if it makes a difference. If there's no difference, we keep looking. Good luck
Cmark thanks for the info ,will try to print it off,so we can test some things out,Yes my machine has ripper valve,no ripper,but i put a hydraulic valve on my machine to pull a hydraulic scraper and im using the valve when i have scraper on.It is electric over hydraulic. Use ripper(lever) valve for one function for scraper and use thumb button for the other on the scraper which has a squence valve for the third function. Where would i start to check for drag on the hydraulic pumps because you can usually tell if something is running over top the relief and it just doesn't show any signs of doing that.Nothing like when you lift blade to top of stroke and then you can hear the engine pull down at idle ,but that is normal. I get what your trying to tell me what ever was wrong before rebuild is still there.Right? Unlikly bad turbo or bad pump and with rebuild on both being bad again ,so back to problem before, still their. I need to try and get a itemized list what actually was done and parts,but might be a little late now(two years),but will check that out.My mechanic is reall great abotu helping get info.Just like other hands are tied a little,as you well know sometimes. I like the thought on the muffler to start with.As for the engine i was starting to loose anti freeze out through the exhaust,so would that plug or build up in the muffler? More info, i did oil sample every oil change during warranty,no excess fuel or water by the sample.I had the Cat mechanic pull up the sample with me every oil change to see if things looked okay.PLus if major problem down the road i could go back and show them i had pointed these thing sout. NO major failure,other then the problems talked about and things being to spec was all they said? Bewteen work and the wet weather the last two years i didn't really get as good as break in as i would like.The machine used no oil in the first 600 hour and then started to use a little maybe 1 gallon over a 180 to 200 hour period between change. The oil sample showed a jump in aluminum ppm of 2 upto 6 ppm at just about the time of oil usage.Which the next oil change stayed at 6 ppm. The oil usage runs about the same with now same where 1000 hour.In the the test explanation for wear meatal it has listed aluminum as...... from main or rod bearing,pistons,rocker shaft in same engines,and turbine????? Just adding this info .Well is late so getting off here.This(typing) is wearing me out about as bad as work :usa
It's late so i'm out of here .Thanks for hanging in there with me:usa My mechanic has computer access ,so i can have him download the site from his truck about what your posting,he will help if you guys can come up with stuff to check and do !
As for getting to turbo ,not so easy,but will see.As posted problem was before the fact,don't think there is a waste gate ,at least not that i can see,like on a dodge cummins turbo,right? I change the air filter when dusty conditons are really bad every time i change the oil,haven't seen anything there wrong.Like said on other post changed it over to the new style adapter for the slip on inter filter. Well i'm out of here for sure.You guys sleep on it tonight and come up with more idea and then will give it a rest until i get the mechanic over which looks to be a while. Just for added info i mentioned the hydraulic pump having 16K hours on it if thought need replaced.He said if that the dif steer was acting up that the pump is usually getting weak. The dif steer still works like a new machine.Actually bettter and smooth then the D6R with around 6 K on it,So go figure. Good night and thanks for all the help and ideas.:usa
Construct'o. Does this machine still have the original precleaner assembly on it from the factory? Have been reading this post, and here is something to try. Have the boost pressure checked, if it is low, recheck it with the air filters removed. If it comes up to were it should be, and the air filters that you removed are new and clean, remove the precleaner assembly and pressure wash it out. Make sure to wash if from the inlet and outlet side. A build up of dust over the years could be restricting your air flow to the air filters themselves, causing your low power and excessive black smoke. Do not know if this is the fix, but it is worth a shot. I have seen these precleaners get full and cause this problem.
Good point 992G. I'd forgotten about the precleaner. Used to get blockages a lot with machines working on landfills.
Quick check for the hydraulics. Remove the floor plate and put a pressure gauge on the pump outlet test fitting. Standby (all implements in neutral) pressure should be around 400psi. Relief pressure around 2800. "Where would i start to check for drag on the hydraulic pumps because you can usually tell if something is running over top the relief and it just doesn't show any signs of doing that.Nothing like when you lift blade to top of stroke and then you can hear the engine pull down at idle ,but that is normal." But if you've studied the engine noise and it changes when you top out the cylinders, you've probably already answered that question.
Here's a total shot in the dark, but could it be a fuel quality issue? I know in the last few years the quality of fuel we've been getting has really dropped. Don't even get me started on biodiesel, that stuff is crap. Used to be able to easily run a hard ten hour day and an hour or 2 the next morning. Now it's hard to make it a full day. I've noticed it in all our machines, but especially in our D6H also. I've also seen a very small loss of power and more smoke, but it doesn't appear as bad as yours. Like you said, 15 years of operating the machine and you tend to notice subtle changes. Also, I'm sure you're running Cat filters, to keep from voiding your warranty. I've tried running cheaper Napa filters, both air and fuel, and learned there is a difference in performance.
Just for the sake of being able to say "yeah, we checked that", have we checked that the rebuild tech got the injection pump timing correct?
Will start here with this question and try to answer you other guys question on this post.If your saying check timing, ,not sure ,but will.The same Cat mechanic replaced the pump on my R and it runs perfect,so he must have done good there. But the pump was already on the engine when rebuilt so,they might have not gotten the timing quite right:beatsmeWill check that out !!!!! another positive to check. As for the precleaner thing this is what is going on there.When you look down into the precleaner after taking the screen top off.On the new machine the honeycomb swirl plates are now plastic(old 7E was metal).Why they went plastic i'll never know(metal will take more heat) Cat need to change this.It is and issue!!!!!! What happens the plastic get hot,it melts and the honeycomb get melted togather(restricts air flow in).Most of you i know that it is for dust, with the pipe running from the precleaner over to the stack and the stack blows the dust coming into the precleaner out the stack.Helps cut down on dust and dirt getting into the air filters as fast. If you guys check your honeycomb in the precleaner i will bet yours will be melted,unless they have been replaced. I would around burning brush piles,so not sure that is how they get melted or is the back pressure heat from the stack through the cross over pipe from the precleaner when working at high temps? So that has been checked and elimated,it is clean(not melted) okay! If you would sometime a few of you guys check your precleaner and see what the honeyconb looks like and report back? As far as the tubing from the air filters on too the turbo when the filter are out the opening is clean to the curve.Again that was all assemblied when the engine came back. I also went through the drop box(new bearing and checked the gearing) bewteen the engine and the convertor. Like i said i wanted to have everything right from the radiator back to the transmission,one time deal,then i was going to start with the finals, trans and hydraulic pump,from there on.Then my machine was hopefulling going to run me on out until retirement when every that is probably when my health get bad which is anyone guess? Anyway that is the update as of now.Sorry for the long post but trying to get all the info in so you guys can try to come up with any new possabilties??? I see guys on here that ask question ,but never give enough info,but also is hard to do in one short post. The two things so far is the muffler,timing !!!!!!! but what is you thoughts on the liftpump from where this started??? Is that a possibilty if they never changed that out when they did the injection pump.I can see lost of power from that ,but if that would have anything to do with the smoke issuses? Well thanks for taking the time to post.Again just trying to get as many leads to check before the mechanic comes.The time search always gets expensive when trying to locate and issue like this. Probably why the Cat dealer didn't want to deal with it.Dealer sometimes just srug things off,when it comes to warranty work seem like,especially when it is not a new machine.Okay better post getting off track:Banghead:usa
Pushcat for got yours ........ Cat filters and using fuel out of the same tank and other equipment is doing okay:usa
I think your machine has a scroll type injector pump, and with the other information you have supplied, I'd now say that the trouble is in the pump. Just sounds to me like it was not rebuilt correctly, and it likely was set to just within spec and not the high side either. I've run into that before. I always hated working on 3306 engines with the scroll system. Two choices; either have Cat do the pump over, on your dime now I guess, or have an independent injection shop do the work. There is some substance to the pre-cleaner and muffler ideas, have run into both. It's also possible that the injector pump was installed one tooth off. Ran into that as well. Engine performed well on dyno, but when loaded in the machine with all accessories and parasitic loads, it bogged down everywhere but at high and low idle. Good Luck!
After all the posts here the secret might just lay in the muffler theory so far.That is the basic thing that might have been missed when i did everything.It wasn't rusted that bad and looked to be reusable at the time not knowing ly it might be plugged! Like i said i was loosing water which was antifreeze out through the exhaust pipe because it was showing up on the brushguard where the exhaust was blowing toward. Antifreeze it sticky,so is the muffler full of the baked antifreeze and carbon,plus the excess oil usage.Would the antifreeze gum up the muffler,sound possible since it is so sticky when you get it on your hands. This would be something that i not sure? that didn't get replaced, (key)before overhaul and after the overhaul. The theory of timing after i think about it, was that if timing was off now that it would have to have been off before, and the pump had never been off the machine since new.Not that after the overhaul it couldn't be off now. "The MUFFLER !!!!!!! to me hopefully is the clue to my fix.":beatsme Would just like to hear a few more comments on the antifreeze plugging the muffler and then i will give this thread a break. So will let you guys know how eveything turns out and thanks for all the reply and help:usa
One thing I think we can agree on; by the time this machine gets fixed, we'll know everything about a D6H!:yup
Easy test. Pull muffler off. Run tractor. If no more problem with low power and smoke, trouble found.
The antifreeze going through the muffler could possibly be the problem.:beatsme Remove the muffler and try running it, before buying a new one. It might be a little loud, but you should notice the power come back.
Sorry Joe, did not mean to say the same as you, guess your faster typing than me.
Constructo, Your 6H sounds like it is doing the same thing Dad's 5H did after it was over-hauled. We put a new torque converter on it and finally decided after about $5000 dollars spent on trying to find the problem in the engine after the over-haul we went back to the t/c and it was a bad rebuild, that being said we sent it back and got another t/c and problem solved. I know you said the tranny checked out fine but might be worth a look at the t/c. Just pull the plug on it and if it has more than 1-2 gal of oil in the housing you might have a leak and it could be loading the engine down. Just my $.02. Hope you get her going.
These kinds of problems can drive you nuts over time so I feel for you. I have seen broken baffles in mufflers that change the flow characteristics and really change the output of the engine. We had that problem with Komatsu S6D170 engines in early nineties. I've cut several wheel loader and excavator mufflers apart and found just that. I have not seen that in Cats at all but that doesn't mean that it isn't possible. The idea that the muffler is plugged up is an interesting possibility. Since it has run so long with the black smoke, I'm sure it will have a very thick coating of soot inside. The most common item that I have seen cause this in Cats is leaking converters slugging the housings. I don't know how the D6H case is scavanged but I'm guessing there is a scavange pump either on the bottom of the converter housing or somewhere on the transmission. Since scavange oil is dumped into the lube circuit for the transmission you might not see high transmission temperatures. Retarded fuel injection timing will also cause loss of power and lots of smoke. I don't know which method is used to time this pump but I seem to remember a timing plate being installed on the engine or the pump somehow and then the pump stabbed into the gear train on the engine. I know there were different ways of timing these things and it is entirely possible for engine people to use the wrong tool. When you do find out what is wrong I would not recommend you telling the dealer what you found. Use it as a lever in the future, unless of course they want to pay some of your bills.
Hi Constructo You're quite right, the plastic tubes do melt. The reason for this is there is a "check valve" in the line between the precleaner and the stack. Sometimes it is in a "bulge" on the precleaner, sometimes it is a seperate steel can installed in the line. This valve is just a tin flap on a hinge and it stops exhaust gas entering the precleaner when the exhaust pressure is more than the precleaner pressure. This flap breaks and falls off. That's why exhaust gas gets back into the precleaner and melts it. I hear what you say about removing the mushroom and looking in the top, but in my experience (and would I guess 992G's as well) the blockage occours in the chamber underneath. You can only see this by removing the precleaner and looking in from the bottom. Can I suggest simply removing the air filter cover and trying a run? It would be a quick way to check.
By the way, if you want to know why the precleaner changed from metal to platic, you'll have to ask Donaldson. They make 'em.
Cmark and John C i keep going back to what was going on before and still now after all has been done unless something sliped through the cracks during the overhauls. Could the convertor been bad before and they missed it in the rebuild,like stated??? I just don't know? I should have kept on them,but was getting wore out from fighting with them, then they come up with run it,not broke in yet. Everything to drag it on until the warranty run out.Time wish two years not the 2 thousand hours.Had to many workday down because the weather ,floods,wet, and winter seasons. What about the check of the convertor is what D6peg said about draining the convertor a way to check? Just going to have to get my mechanic down here and start.If muffler easy fix, if convertor expenssive,unless i can prove they did get it right up at the dealer.I hate REDO's when you pay someone good money to get it right the first time! We did have to replace the seal on the convertor after we got it running first thing,they pinched it when they put it back togather.I chewed on them about that hard.There shop is almost spot clean up there at the dealer then we have to tear it out under the dozer in the dirt,which we was clean about but you get the point. So anyway starting with muffler and go from there.I have never had good luck with rebuilds,always something.They are never like when they roll out of the factory ,or has been for me.Every machine i have bought new has run over 12k to this one 16K hours with just normal matinence. Anyway thanks guys just going to give this thread a rest,but will let you all know what we find unless i run out of money trying to find like D6 peg said.5 grand to find out, that it was a bad rebuilt convertor!!!!!!! Hoping it is the muffler,just can't be that simple probably. Well be showing my Cat mechanic all these post,and even the dealer if it is something that they messed up on.Not faulting my mechanic he is a good mechanic and try to look out for his customer,:usa
I well say this that most machines that i have been around with to much oil in the convertor,when you first try to move them it is like there stuck in the mud. As far as that the H doesn't seem that way to me,but about now i'm wondering if i know anything??? Thanks again and good night:usa
I was asked to diagnose a series 60 in a truck that was blowing huge amounts of black smoke and had no power . The truck had been hit in the front and had just been repaired but they could not find what was wrong . I took it for a drive and came back . The boss said "what do you think?" I said theres a pair of pyjamas in the intercooler . He looked at me with an astonished look . I said trust me . They pulled off the cooler pipes and sure enough , out came a ladies dress . He said "i'll kill that mechanic , why would he do that ?" I said , i'd kill him if he did'nt while the system was open . The trick is to pull it out before putting the pipes back on . Does your engine have an intercooler ? If not have you checked inside the intake pipes ?
Sorry mate. No intercooler on this one. If the scavenge pump wasn't working to the extent that the torque converter was running in oil, I personally would expect major tranny overheating issues. I've actually seen a machine that caught fire because of that very problem. If the torque converter, (or more likely the torque divider) had a problem, I would expect the problem to appear only when moving. My understanding is that the engine is also sluggish when accelerated in neutral. But then again, I could be totally wrong.....
The same reason why everything else has went from metal to plastic, the cost.
Cmark, The 5h that my dad had was sluggish at all times due to fact that the t/c was full of oil. I have always understood that power has to go thru the t/c before it gets to the tranny. The new t/c that we put in had a keeper ring that was not installed and it let the converter float inside the housing causing it to fill with oil. You could drain the converter and it had the power that it should have until the it filled back up with oil. Dang, Constructo hope you get it going soon. I know these problems can sure be a headache.
Couple update today My thought here first is that the cost is to me since i have replaced it twice.If they are going to use plastic make it something that you can bolt in.You have to buy the whole precleaner housing because plastic honeycomb is molted in the metal housing.Cost to me! been awhile but aound 283 dollars(precleaner housing) each time.Make it so it will slid in place and bolt in place to hold in,at a cost of like maybe $50:beatsme which would be plenty.Maybe they do now? can anyone answer that???? The muffler thing is ruled out ! Muffler was replaced at the time install was done.I called the dealer and had the parts guys lookup the last time i bought muffler.He found it tied into the work order for parts when the rebuild was done.When he said work order i thought i want to know what all was on the work order since he pointed out a lot of parts.He started naming off parts and we went through all them then he comment this is funny .......NO new camshaft,i go what! are you sure.He double checked.Not there. This is going to be long winded,but called the spec shop to question if camshaft was on another seperate work order.They searched and said no.By this time i'm pissed !!!!!!!! Too long to post everything,but they are checking things out getting back to the head mechanic,to my field mechanic,so things are getting sturredup. I told spec shop guy what we discussed ( on here), the before and after thing. I can't believe after spending 34K and then leave out I'm guessing 1000 dollar new cam with an engine with 16K hours.I just don't get it !!!!!! So today i went and discussed this with a friend of mine at my local Ag Deere dealer,he is shop forman.Told him the whole story. He thoughts is if no air obstruction(which i'm sure is okay) then it is go to fuel pump his thought.He say it's two things,not enough air, or not enough exhaust pressure to spin the turbo fast enough,which takes more fuel. So the list is Check turbo boost,check timing, check fuel pressure, and will check for air blockage. We agreed the only to thing that was reused as far as engine was the old cam which with that< his thought was would have intermit missing if low camlob.He did mention they might have gotten the cam drive gear off a teeth you think it would be on d/pin(not sure if possible,but had been with a deere???) Or they missed something in the rebuild on the fuel pump( i'm thinking about going with a reman pump there if we get down to that?)or maybe i should outscoure the rebuild to my other pump rebuild guy and see if the dealer didn't get the job done right the first time?What do you guys think???? We talked about the smoke issue and low power before and keep coming back to this. Will just be waiting for better weather since my shop isn't big enough to get machine in a heated shop,and i'm not going to pay a 2 hour trucking bill one way.Or work out in subzero weather i'm to f$$$ing old for that! I did call my Cat mechanic first, just to run the muffler thing by him and the convertor.He thought we had replaced the muffler and hadn't run into the problem before (plugged).The convertor he was in agreement with Cmark there, would be heating problem showing up.We don't have. I am pissed over the old cam even if it meet spec !!!! No better time to replace then it would have been then,since they knew i was planning on keeping the machine longterm.Nobody even called to see if i didn't want it changed out.If you was going to spend the money i did wouldn't you think i would want to replace the cam also??????I just don't get :Banghead So guess thats it. :usa Another long winded post sorry!)
The injection pump on that machine is one of the most simple ones I have worked on. Usually if one of the barrel and plunger assemblies is a tooth off when it engages the rack you get a definate miss or a horrible fuel knock. However, the governor section could have problems. One misplaced or misaligned part in there could cause any number of problems. Some D6H tractors utilized an air fuel ratio assembly on the rear of the governor. If yours has one, a quick check would be to remove and dissassemble it and check to see if the diaphram is busted, and for proper assembly. Also, when the AFR assy. is installed, if it is not hooked up inside the governor just right it messes up the way the control rack moves.
Construct'O, calm down. I know this machine is irking your last nerve, but your going through the process of finding the problem. Now that you've eliminated the muffler being the problem, I think you've described a good check list in your last post. Your getting a lot of good help and advice at this forum. Follow through with your check list and keep us informed. Your giving us good detailed descriptions of your machine and it's symptoms. We're just as crazy as you are to figure this thing out.
I didn't read all the posts. If it did this low power smoking deal before the overhaul, and is still doing it. Then the dealer got a good deal there. And evidently they still can't trouble shoot at the dealers too well. Does it coast okay? Meaning go into a dreaded high gear with blade up on hard ground go farily fast and pop into neutral. If it drags down real quick its either an undercarriage problem or something behind the engine back, drive train, brakes dragging etc. You could have something as simple as the pedal linkage slightly applying the brakes /valving, and loading the thing. If the engine dynoed okay it isn't that. Black smoke means fuel, and as long as the governor is working okay, that means a load, or lack of air. Now even the dealer isn't stupid enough to have a restricted inlet or a restricted exhaust well I may eat those words. And most always if the TC is eating the power some how, you would see a decent temperature rise from that, same with brakes dragging or the transmission valving letting a clutch pack get some apply pressure when it shouldn't. I think your picking on the engine too much when it could be something else. Remember it dynoed okay, correct?????? Does it do this low power when just sitting or just when its moving? We can all get some tunnel vision when trying to find a problem like this.
Hi d6peg I hear what you're saying that if the torque converter housing was full of oil it would drag the engine down even when in neutral. You're dead right there but I would expect the transmission oil to get super hot in no time. Constructo's machine doesn't appear to have any temperature problems. Did your dad's D5 get any overheating problems?
You might want to check your fuel supply. Sounds like you have a low fuel pressure problem. It could be restriction on the suction or return back to tank. Remove your suction and return hoses from the engine and install a good unrestricted hoses to a bucket of clean fuel. Prime your fuel system and see if it runs better.
Cmark, The tranny temp in the 5H didn't get any hotter with the bad t/c as it did with the new t/c. The water temp got a little hotter because of the load though. Constructo, Try removing the air filters in clean air and not working and see if you still get the smoke. If it still smokes that will rule out any precleaner issues. Just a thought. Hope you get it figured out.
My computer has been down so just now seeing your post. I haven't read all post's so sorry if this has been mentioned. I would suggest checking the valve tolerances. I know from experience one intake valve adjusted to tight will cause loss of power, unburned fuel, and slow recovery of rpm's. Removing air filter while running may allow you to hear this problem. Good luck.
ConstructO posted Cmark posted Wouldn't take long to rule out the hydraulic pump. Put a gauge on it and start it. If pressure is noticeably above 400 psi just sitting there something is triggering the pump to pressure up.
Wow. That surprises me.
low power / smoke Nobody has said anything about the fuel pump timming. I have seen a cat reman engine in a D7G come back and was 4 degrees out in its timming also the reman turbo failed when doing a stall test. Also had a 4 71 GM in a Champion grader that had the revs but no power or smoke under load, after a lot of head scratching and eliminating many things they found the camshaft was one tooth out in its timming. Fixed that up and was it was a ball of fire. You can have all the fuel and the air in world but if they dont come together at the right time it wont work properly, Just my 2 cents worth.
OK, a lot of good info here but lets get this thing fixed!! For me back to your first post and lets start there, you say the engine had issues prior to rebuild, seems the rebuild cured some but confusion now seems to reigne as some ills are still with it. You say it had a dynotest, if it made the correct HP then the problem lies with something that was not on it during the dyno-simple as that but where to start, so many places. Black smoke is usually not enough air or to higher fuel setting and can be a number of other things too, again i assume with a pump rebuild and making correct HP that cancels out a too high fuel setting. There are many tests that can be performed, boost, stall speeds, fuel pressures, timing, tappet adjustments, rpm,s, get them done and eliminate them and clear your head. Do all the basic things, air fuel filters, fuel supply-even run a drum of fuel up on the fender and eliminate the tank and lines as a source of problem. You say the cam was not replaced, the Cat guys unless instructed to replace check components against a guide for reusability, if it meets the spec why would you want to bin it and add $$ to the rebuild, they are trying to save you money=the only thing i would say is that maybe they could have given you a full teardown report with some options and you go from there, maybe they did? Many years of knowledge here from the quality of the posts, get them things checked and you will find it, my bet is it will be something quite simple and you will kick yourself!
Good points,along with everyone elses.AS for the cam replacement.The engine had 16k hours,i'd like to think with a complete rebuild like done,but with new cam that i could get that many hour the second go around.I'll be 62 here this summer ,so the chances of me seeing another 16K is getting slim anyway i guess. Whats the chance of that when starting with 16K original cam i ask you?Your guess is as good as mine? Another reasons whats the cost now going to be to replace a cam? The engine was laying on the bench easy job just slip the new cam in the engine done deal!!!!!!! That worry gone.Peace of mind! The cost now would be trip/mileage, labor lots off that ,since engines back in the machine.The H(early model) is not like the R where the indiviual radiator core pops out. You will have to tilt the nose over which can be a pain because of the pins in the nose being stuck ,which might not be since it was off when we pulled the engine.Then there is all the front of the engine cover,pulleys ,fan then take the top end apart,push rods rockerarms,lifter,the list goes on. So why you ask me,that why.As far as kicking myself yeah maybe if something i missed,but if it was on the other end who gets to do the kick'n I emailed my mechanic and gave him this link.He is checking it out,before he come,which the weather is turning crappy again ,so will be a while yet.Then we will start trying things posted. I'm wanting to do some other things to the machine before spring gets here,but before i do. I want to try and get get this settle because of costs? Thanks again for all the info.:usa Forgot they are going to try and find record of the dyno results to look at.
Keep us posted:usa
Agree 100% Read this thread from the start, feel like I own the darn thing
Boost Leak? If the turbo is new, what about these pieces, dried up, and leaking? What about the hose clamps, could be striped if reused? I had a leak here before causing low power.
Hi guys . I had a problem with a d6r type 1.(same engine) There is a vacuum line from the fuel pump round the back (cab side) to the other side of the motor (i believe the turbo but its been a while) that tells the fuel pump to give more fuel when it must deliver power. If there is a leak or blockage in the line then the dozer has no power when it should but high idle when neutral is ok Maybe someone mentioned it , i have not red the whole post in detail. It doesn't cover the smoke part I'm afraid but check it out?
Could it be the fuel pump out of time. When ripping the fuel pump off did you time it to the right setting? Some have two positions where you turn the motor over until the pin slides into the crank on the pump. Positions are usually at one and five. Lets say it wasnt timed right than this could explain excessive fuel and lack of power, or the distraction of you motor. Having not read the entire thread maybe this has been mentioned and discard if so. But i remember a young kid taking the pump off his cat 330 and not knowing much about it, didnt time the pump to the motor when re-installing and that was it for the motor. I learned along time ago working on an international truck that if you dont time the pump its game over.
Hey Constructo Have you made any progress with this problem?
Does anyone know if Cat uses a spragged bearing in the torque convertor? I had a D65 Komatsu same vintage do the exact same thing. I pulled the injection pump off twice before I looked at a parts break down and found it had a spragged bearing in it. Just a thought.
The cam deal. Ya learned a lesson, just because a nice Cat shop does the work it doesn't mean they are doing a good job. I know of some huge cat shop misshaps. Some big attitudes in a few of those places, and low skill level. So I forget how much did they charge ya to not fix the problem?
Yes dozer 575 i too know of some big fubars out of Cat shops but the way i read your statement you make it sound like there is no one else having fubars at all. And yes i work at a cat shop and it always seems to be the easy target when it comes to criticism, sure some is warranted from time to time but regardless of where anyone works do you honestly think an individual would go to work and intend to make a mistake?
I could bet my head that the injector pump is incorrectly timed! also the black smoke and low power tells that! I had some of my company guys that always talk about tuning and hoping up cars to change the camshaft/ignition belt on the company Ducato... after 3 tries it still did run like a steam locomotive... they had the pump one tooth in the wrong position and because of that it ran really badly:Banghead man i was pissed of and to busy to correct it my self, i have changed the belt on ducatos 3 times without getting it wrong once, i took it to the Fiat service shop and they put it in place in no time:drinkup these car tuning "gurus" quit talking about turbos and timing after this
:lmao :lmao very frustrating for you but I am sure it puts a smile on your face each time you see um :thumbsup
No sprag bearing.
A friend of mine had his injector pump rebuilt by his Komotso dealer and re installed by them. The timing was not correct when re installed. Dealer spent countless hours trying to track the problem down, thought problem was in the pumps, etc, was on a 220 Excavator. An older mechanic who was more familiar with the machine looked at it and suddenly remembered it was to be timed a little differently, changed the timing and ran great after that. He also had the engine in his Cat 350 loader rebuilt by the local cat dealer. Did not have power and blew black smoke. Dealer sent fuel system mechanic out to fiddle with it, same problem persisted. Turns out dealer had installed wrong pistons during rebuild. Changed pistons, ran great!
May not be a major part of your problem, but I've been told by more than one person that the local Cat shop doesn't put fuel pumps they rebuild on their test stand (at least the older pumps)....just put in new parts and set the adjustments to measured spec.
I would not rule out injection pump but I think we are lossing site of the original post. He had the same problem before the overhaul. The shop rebuilt the engine, fuel pump and put it on a dyno. I probably should reread the entire post my self, but I would start from scratch on my testing. What is the engine doing at idle and WOT(WIDE OPEN THROTTLE) in neutral?(RPM'S.SMOKE) If everything is normal, I would put the machine in a hydraulic stall. What are my results? Then I would go to a convertor stall. What are my results? Then lastly full stall. What are the results? Just my $0.02 worth for the morning. I can't wait to find out was is going on with this thing.
DRESSTA, you ain't the only one that want's to find out what's wrong with this thing. You should take time to read the whole post, it's quite a ride. We discussed it had the problem before, was rebuilt, and dyno'd. How could it be the injection pump? The little detail that bugs most of us is "lot's of black smoke". That's caused by one of two things; 1) air/fuel ratio mixture not right, or 2) a lot of coal being poured into that engine because of the load demand, like the stall load you describe. If you go to a tractor pull, you'll see those diesel tractors belching black smoke like a coal fired freight train, that's because they have the injection pump turned up putting the most fuel you can get in there for the amount of air to work with. But what bugs us about this machine is if the excessive smoke is caused by phantom load and the pump throwing the fuel to it, that seems like a pump that's cranked way up for a fresh rebuilt engine??? Also, I've learned NOT to say "naw, it can't be that, that was repaired/replaced." With God and machines, all things are possible. I'm trying not to focus on it had the problem before, and instead trying to think of any or all things that could cause this problem. I hope we find out soon, I'm certain Constructo would as well.
Black smoke: Post number 74... LOL I'll post it again... there's a rag or something stuck in the induction system... Either before... in... or after the turbo. Or... for some reason the turbo isn't working right... Or... none of the above.... lot's help.... OCR... Seriously... You probably already have... but if not, check for a restriction... every where, and of any kind.... PS... ... Damn, I kinda hope I'm wrong too....
Agree with what you say. I picked cat because on topic and also some experience in that area.
Hey this is an important point too. You might be better looking for a wrench who is the same "vintage" as your machine, because you can bet that Cat is not sending young techs to school to learn 977's.... And don't forget, all mechanical machines are NOT always easier to work on, sometimes harder....but most guys like them more because they are more FAMILIAR with them - the more familiar you are with something, the easier I guess it seems to fix.
Enough already. Lets see, 77 post at an average of $100.00 an hour shop labor. Not counting the OJT time of reading ALL the post. Let's get this thing fixed we are going broke here. LOL TIC TOC TIC TOC
Construct'O. You haven't forgot us have you?
Construct'O everybodys got good ideas , so being also a retired cop, Im going back to the scene of the crime. Gotta see if the police report is correct. You got a few hours on it over the years, slowly getting worse, more smoke, getting slow to wind up, bogging down under load. You had Cat rebuild it and on the dyno, they said it was correct. Now you put the engine in the frame and it acts as if it was never touched? After a few cans of thinkin juice my mind is saying what( if I put a big electric motor in there ) and try it electric motors don't need fuel or mufflers that was already rulled out. I think ill find the same symptom. I rule out the TC, thats only a slippin clutch. So Im thinking behind that. I had a loader that acted like that years ago. Hydrulics was ruled out, mufflers fuel pump all of that, I cant picture a D6 tranny in my head but this was an allison, I dont remember the correct terminology, it was a crack, leak stuck valve or? there are so many circuts in there > it was applying oil to do several functions at once. Due to the big oil cooler and this lack of power, it could not do enough work to even get hot. Even in neutral it wouldnt rev up. This is only another thought. I remember this problem crept up very slowly until I thought it was just tired. I aggree sombody said worn out tired engine black smoke in all, use either on a hot day, will still do a good job of pushing. My finding like a loader, pull the stick back to the detent raising the bucket when it gets to the end , there you go to gutless engine. Ill bet that if you could unbolt the TC and push it back like a car, start engine it'l run fine. Like I said only a thought, but I had it happen.
No i haven't forgot everyone,just nothing has happened yet,because of weather and working outside,no shop Just when it looked like the weather was going to get nicer it turned,and got 6" of snow and cold.So will be a while. Still plan to do the basic tests first and go from there.If nothing shows up in a short time and easy fix ointhead Then on too plan B, will turn the fuel up about 3 turns,run to see if got power and if it will run hot.If power is okay,but runs hot.Turn it back a turn and call it good!!!!!!Then at least it will have a reason to smoke:usa
One work: TIMING
Good luck & keep us posted.
A little update,not much Got somethings checked ,but not much, had other issues that is taking up time. Checked the hydraulic pump all the pressures was near spec.I'm having the hydraulic valve resealed and checked for issue while in there to see if spool is sticking. Not really got to check the motor much yet ,but mechanic will start with the timing,then go from there.Didn't have time need to move on too a bigger problem .Sorry! This really doesn't have to do with the smoke issue,but i was getting metal in the right final drive,so it is off and getting rebearing,seals, gears okay.When took off the final drive there was metal on the inter housing. Checked transmission filter no metal to speak of in the rear filter (screen),so took the bellly pans off took out front magnetic filter small fine metal. So i had the mechanic pull the rest of the right side where the park break is off.As it came out the thrash bearing fill off.The washer had broke still one piece but was flipping around on the inside on the plantery gears for the dif steer and break.So at least might have caught something here that could have been a major problem.So at least happy about that,not repair ,but would have been worse. They came out with a newer updated cage for the new plantery gear,so the old cage they don't have ,so will have to find old or go new.The update is 3k for parts. They found old cage ,but i would like to update so told them to look for update parts on a dead machine on the internet.They are searching. More bad weather(5" of snow,cold) since torn down so will have to get my other parts back and on the machine before we can check the other issue.Will check the torgue convertor drain it and see if there is a issue with too much oil.Belly pan are off fast check there.I'm working on the list!!!!!! So started ,but not much info except the above,with is a whole different problem,but one i knew needed taking care off.Later:usa
Dyno report and spec sheet I meet with shop manger and customer service rep at DM ,Iowa Thrusday and got the dyno report and spec sheet. Here is the dyno report and the spec sheet,i guestioned the torque reading while there,about the low torgue at mid range(25-30 minute mark).They said that was at stall.At the time it seemed low,not knowing what to ask wasn't sure what to reply. Well when i got home and have had more time to go over the information.By the spec sheet and the report too me the torque(lb-ft) seem low on the test compared to the spec sheet. I'm using the lb-ft on the spec sheet nominal is 668 on the test report the best it ever got was 578 at the 10 minute mark with the norminal on the dyno being more in the 480 range.What affects torque??? So what do you guys think(need help on this) is the torque low,by what what i'm seeing it seems to be:beatsme :usa
If you are sure that you have zero slippage (TC, or otherwise), next place to check if turbocharger performance. Not NECESSARILY DO YOU NEED A TURBO. If the tq is low and then comes up at redln this is spoolup characteristics of the turbo. Lag can be cause by a number of things: 1.plugged exhaust (or catalyst, if equiped) 2.intake restriction (air filter dirty) 3.Overly LEAN mixture on a diesel during boost onset (rich on a gas job - opposite) - these remove heat energy from exhaust which is necessary to drive the turbine 4.air leaks on the cold side - this causes low HP (high end), not necessarily low TQ (bottom) 5.exhaust leaks between cylinder head and turbocharger - big lag culprit, seldom diagnosed correctly If you are interested in my opinion, I would check the intake side for restriction first, then leaks. The smoke points you in the direction of low boost........
There are so much suggestions made i know.. but I'm curious .. did you checked the vacuum line from the fuel pump that goes round the back of the engine (cabside)?
You should have maximum torque at stall, and maximum turbo boost. The engine oil pressure seems to really drop off at stall if I'm reading the data right, I'm not sure that would have an effect on the low oil pressure solenoid at the injector pump or not. Engine oil pressure at low idle seems really low for this model engine. Engine RPM at stall seems correct. Fuel pressure at stall seems low. It's dropping a hundred foot/pounds of torque after running 55 minutes, that may indicate slippage and worn seals, or converter oil is finally at operating temp, but coolant temp seems to stay stable. Just some observations.
surfer-joe the top sheet is the actual dyno test sheet ,the bottom is a SPEC test sheet(from Cat.com)just for reference to compare the results too on the dyno sheet,so not sure if you understood that? I thought the torque looked to be low also and the second line is boost i believe and it looked to be low at 22 bsi1(inHg) compared to on the spec sheet for norminal at 27.8.Not sure i'm reading this right ,but i think so. Thanks for the reply anyone else?:usa
This is what we are looking at; The first page is the actual data from the engine's dyno run. The second page is the spec sheet that the dyno operator uses. This contains the actual values Cat expects an engine set to this particular performance spec to make, hence a Nominal, Ceiling and Floor. For example, oil pressure can be 58 plus or minus 29psi, anything outside these figures and the operator would fail the engine. Now the thorny question of Torque and Horsepower. The first thing to know is that Horespower is the English unit of power, Kilowatt(Kw) is the metric unit of power, so for now, we'll just call it "Power". Power is a calculated figure, it can't be measured. The only things that can be measured are RPM and Torque. Power is calculated with the formula "Torque multiplied by RPM dived by a Constant" The constant depends on the units you are working in, in this case, English units so the constant is 5252. So HP = LB FT * RPM / 5252. The point I'm trying to get across is that 5252 only works for English units. As you can see, HP depends on RPM, which is why motorcycle engine manufacturers can quote impressive HP figures. Their engines make only a modest amount of torque, but run at a zillon RPM so you can calculate a big HP. Interestingly, note on the dyno run sheet that as RPM drops, the torque figures actually rise but HP falls due to the formula. Ever seen manufacturers quote "Torque Rise" figures? This is what they're talking about. It is calculated as a percentage. I can't remember the formula for this right now. In the real world it is felt as the engine's ability to "keep plugging away" as it comes under high load and the RPM falls. I should point out that I'm no physics professor. This is only my interpretation based on what I've learned in my career (so far) The problem we have is that the machine can't achieve full RPM but has lots of smoke under load. We can see on the dyno, the engine made RPM in the 1900's and the HP was within spec, allthough on the low side. Constructo, I still think we're looking for a parasitic load or restriction on the air intake side. Have you tried running it with the air filter lid removed yet? Keep us informed, this is getting interesting..........
I am hesitant to comment cause this is not my area of expertise but I'll try to help and quickly defer to the mechanics on this site if I get in over my head. According to the spec sheet full load power should be 179 at 1900 rpm's. Your engine maintains that hp at those rpm's throughout the times listed on the test. The torque check speed according to the spec sheet is 1400 rpm's. Your engine was only pulled down to this rpm once according to the dyno printout. That was done at the 10 minute mark. The torque at that time was 578 lb-ft. Yes the torque is low if I understand what I am reading. 43 lb-ft below minimum and 90 lb-ft below nominal recomendations. Should this have been enough to stop it from going out the door - I don't know but it does indicate a problem to me.
Please excuse the multiple posts. Its seems I get kicked out when typing a long post. I did three long ones earlier and lost them all. Please take my comments with skepticism cause I am a farmer not a mechanic. The way I understand it your engine must be pulled down to check the torque. I am surprised your engine wasn't pulled down to 1400 rpm's on more occasions during the test in order to check the torque- or was it? Also the way I interpret things your question of low torque at the 25-30 minute mark has no merit because the torque check rpm's are 1400 not 1900. RDG said it best in an earlier post when he said you can have all the fuel and air in the world but if it doesn't come together at the right time in the proper way you ain't got nothing. I stand by my initial post. I believe your engine is starved for air in some fashion. Or as Special Tool just mentioned the exhaust pressure may be low so as to not get optimum effect from the turbo. Both of these issues could be the result of improper valve function. Check Those Valves! For a couple hundred bucks max you'll have peace of mind. Yes check the timing'S first but to me that is to obvious to be likely. The parasitic load has merit but I've had experience with same symptoms as you on a D7G (same engine) with a fresh reman in it. After a new turbo and pump work the valves were the culprit. Its a long story perhaps I'll share sometime but the cat mechanic kept telliing us, "thats a new engine you gotta break that in". Sound familiar! My answer to him was, "horsehockey, I've run D7G's and this thing ain't right. I've never had to break an engine in and don't have trouble with our engines". Ours acted like we were wading around in two feet of wet sticky clay. Well we pulled our hair till we figured it out and I reckon thats what you'll do. If your still looking for a common denominator for the same symptoms pre and post overhaul its the camshaft right? Whats the camshaft do???? Check Those Valves! Disclaimer: The above advice could be a bunch of hooey. Remember I'm just a dumb lowly farmer. Shucks we could all be wrong.
Upon further review I noticed your engine was a little weak on hp while on the dyno but still near minimum. What else concerns me is the low boost. I really don't know what that is but I assume its some measure of recovery or exhaust pressure or some such thing associated with the turbo. Your adjusted boost of 16 inHg at torque check rpm's (1400) and your adjusted boost of 20-22 compared to I assume full load speed specs indicate an engine starving slightly I think. People make mistakes. Our valve adjustment with the reman engine was covered under warranty and I would hope when you determine the problem with your engine if due to human error it will be as well cause things just have'nt been quite right. I believe your dealer knows this. We kept telling our cat mechanic our D7G was out of time. He checked and double checked both pump and engine. I know what I'd do and I think you may have it on your list by now. Perhaps I already mentioned it.........Check Those Valve Tolerances! I'll shut up now. Good luck!
j&d, I am more than a little familiar with that frustrating event... And then, you don't feel like... even if you can remember... trying to make a repost... happened many a time to me... Did you see this? I does seem to work fairly well for those long posts... :cool2 OCR...
I had a stuck egr valve on a diesel once that gave a lot of smoke and lack of power. Since the 3306 hasn't got one maybe there is something going on that the intake air get exhaust gas in it?
J&D is quite right. Peak torque is low. I've just done some revision on the subject and I reckon that the torque rise is around 20% which is around a third lower than it should be. Torque rise is controlled by the FTS (full torque setting) adjustment screw and the torque spring, either of which could cause the low figure by restricting the fuelling. However this doesn't (in my humble view) explain the problem. When it is installed in the tractor, the engine has black smoke and low RPM. This means incomplete combustion meaning either too much fuel or not enough air. It could also be explained, as suggested, by incorrect timing or a valve issue, but the engine is capable of making the correct torque and rated RPM (on the dyno) so I would suggest this eliminates valves or timing. I think we need to look for something in the tractor which is causing the problem. Also, don't get hung up too much on boost figures. They are a really useful tool for quick field tests when diagnosing low power, but the discrepancy in this case is only around 3psi. This possibly coincides with the HP being close to the floor. As always, I'm open to contradiction on any of these points. I'm not a Caterpillar fuel system designer, just a heavy equipment mechanic.
I agree thats what noticed also! What's the old saying been there done that ! So with that said i haven't been there done this before !!!!!!! That is why i keep posting and same goes for the dyno test so didn't really know what to look for at the meeting with the dealer shop manager. After getting home and really studying the report and spec sheet i came to the same thoughts as you and others the torque on dyno and spec sheet using the 1400 rpm was the highest for torque,but lowest HP ,and boost, same as you noticed.It is low(578) compared to the 621 at even floor it didn't come up to spec there the way i read it.As stated in your post! When i sked at the meeting they pointed out the highlighted HP and rpm at stall,which was why i mentioned that.So i say it in closer to the floor on HP(closer to 174 for the average then 179 the way i read it then tappering off to 172 below floor athe last part of then dyno)and actually below floor for torque.Meaning it was on the weak side before it left the the shop after the dyno. Anyway i agree again with the valve check(it was on the list).So with that said and the issue of the old cam what is going on with the valves.Mechanic says the cam should miss if low cam lob,but unless it was really wore ,could you not have a miss if you have the valve adjust to tight? To compsate for wear? So if valve is to tight on intake you could have fuel coming in as exhaust valve is opening those (smoke into exhaust not burnt.Those black smoke)Right ? Is this a sign of to tight valves? If exhaust are to tight then there would be a miss.Right? (like if you have a burnt valve? I'm i thinking right here.The valve train doesn't seem to be noise as in to loose,so why i'm leaning to tight but:beatsme Can you explain what you found on your 7G valve problem???? I do know they replaced some rocker stuff,but not sure what? As for the savager we have checked the hydraulic pump( which also runs the dif steer) ,it has passed the test there.Will be checking the convertor ,got the belly pan off just need to drain the convertor and check if to much oil. The machine has other issue(rebuilding the right final drive,park brake and the plantery gears and cage for the left side of the dif steer).Thats another story,but not related to this. So the machine can't not be run or moved ,so we can't do test yet.My usual mechanic will have that put back togather here shortly(if weather holds) then! The dealer is sending down Quote " new set of eyes(mechanic)" to run the checks and test.So will have to see how that goes . I will be pointing out all the great replys everyone has posted.Sorry if i haven't replied to everyone,but sometimes my reply slows down the posts, keeps posting.Thanks again to everyone for your replys.:notworthy:usa
Just one more post for added info.Talked to my Deere mechanic for some input also.(this is a fluke situration but) he said one time they had the cam gear slip on the keyway,sheared the key. The fuel pumped showed in time ,but with the gear slipped on the end of the cam it was out of time.Unusal but :beatsme who knows. Also the dealer said cam was in spec was this a visual as to not looking wore or did they actually mike the lobs with a dial indicator? Just a lot here to ponder on. Also i asked him about the high aluminum on the three oil change(oil sample) and that is where is started to use a some oil a gallon in between oil changes (200 hr) sorry getting off on another subject but........ his thought was might have score a piston a little. Went from 2 to 6 they posted a to watch note .Next change it was 5. Just not something you want to see with only around a thousand hour on you overhaul.Anyway more concerned about the other issues. My plans was too keep this machine until i quit,since i did by it new and working my way threw a pretty much comlete overhauled machine(except trans(next),right final and hydraulic pump) it could be a certified rebuild:usa
High Aluminium content , low power , black smoke . Is it possible the piston cooling nozzles are not correctly aligned or are not functioning properly ? This could cause the high Aluminium content in the oil from scuffing pistons . It could also cause the other problems as the engine comes on boost , Pyro temp goes up , pistons expand and become tight in the bores . I have seen this before , the Banjo bolts going through the nozzels were over tightened causing the internal spool valves in the Banjo bolts to be jambed shut . The engine grabbed a piston and was rebuilt three times before i was asked to have a look . I replaced all 6 Banjo bolts and it never had another problem .
That is a good thought, but the cooling jets in a 3300 engine dont have a bolt. They just stick up out of thr block about a eighth of an inch. I have seen silicone protruding from the before, causing a galded piston due to no oil coming out of them. And the camshaft gear bolts on, and has an irregular bolt pattern so it cant go on wrong. Lots of people thinking deep on this one.:Banghead
Does the gallery that supplies the cooling nozzles have a restrictor valve that only opens when a pre determined oil pressure is achieved ? That's what the valves in the Banjo bolt type do , give full oil pressure to the crank while starting . I too have seen Silicon block oriffices .
Thanks OCR I appreciate your help you obviously know how I feel. I just need practice cause I'm kinda computer illiterate. As the plot thickens with Constructo's dozer I feel compelled to try to help no matter how much typing I have to do. It is an intriguing dilemma. I hope if I become an annoyance somebody will tell me. Lonestar Cobra and Iron Horse are way over my head. NL1CAT I don't even know what an egr valve is by the way. Hopefully someone will share so I don't have to google it. I do however have some common sense, a little experience and and a vague knowledge of the inner workings of the semi modern internal combustion engine. We virtually never have engine problems...just lucky I guess. The last part of the above quote is what I am talking about. When I say an intake valve may be adjusted to tight Constructo Your right in assuming that I mean held open so intake air gets exhaust gas into it. In essence compression is trying to escape back through the air intake. Could this also be caused by a bent? or broken intake valve? Our 7G had a VERY subtle miss or precombustion knock at low idle that was camaflauged at higher rpm's. The sound was more noticable with air filter removed. Say ch ch ch ch ch kinda quietly and fairly quickly to get an idea of what we heard. I don't know what exhaust valve problems may sound like...probably a miss. To be continued. Jeff
I just have to say this. I thought Constructo was in good hands until I took a good look at Cmarks photo in his avatar. LOL. That just cracks me up. ...Boy won't I be embarrassed if it really is his own photo! I'm going to keep typing cause I appreciate the opportunity to participate and be around good and very talented people that seem to be prevalent on this site. ATCOEQUIP has been all over this problem from the start and his very first post on this thread says a lot. I subscribe to the conspiracy theory on many matters and as I age I become even more cynical. I'm picturing the guy doing the dyno test thinking "well its just not quite right but good enough maybe. Can't be anything we did. Must just be a good tight overhaul and "need broke in". We sure don't want to have to open that engine back up". I suppose I'm just paranoid but it sure seems hard to find good help and I have developed the bad attitude that if I'm not involved in a project myself, it may not get done right. I guess what I'm trying to suggest Constructo is to take a proactive approach in this repair. I'm pretty sure you will. Nobody likes to have someone look over their shoulder while working especially a mechanic. But it is your machine. Don't be afraid to ask questions of them. Next I think we'll discuss the dyno test some more. Jeff
Let me reiteriate from an earlier post. Our 7G had a very,very subtle and undistinguishable, irregular and seemingly inconsistent miss. The cat mechanic claimed to not be able to hear anything wrong. An ex diesel mechanic and relative diagnosed our valve problem when he suggested removing the air filter. I must disagree with Cmark on one issue in regard to the dyno test. He said "the engine is capable of making correct torque and rpm's". Rpm's yes...Someone may have to tell me how a dyno test is done. The engine was warmed up then opened up to high idle speed at the 0 minute mark. High idle was 2179 rpm's which is near the high end of specs. Very good. Hp is only 48 and torque 116 which is irrevalent since there is no load applied to calculate from.Its sitting there running wide open correct? I picture the dyno automatically printing out a result at 5 minute intervals with somebody standing at dyno controls occasionally changing the load. Only once at the 10 minute mark did they really make this beast come to her milk to test torque and allow the printer to show it. The remainder of the time it was at or near full load test of 1900 rpm's. Yes one exception was the 35 minute mark of 1807? rpm's and torque responded in kind. My point is never once do I see the minimum 621 lb-ft torque breeched. To be sure, 1400 rpm's is the only rpm's correct torque (TQ) can be checked. Forget Hp at this 10 minute mark, its irrevalent as it should come down after the rpm's drop below full load test of 1900 right? I know everybodys probably getting a little bleary eyed right now and I apoligize but I am trying to learn. This is the first dyno printout I've ever seen. Just a few more points. I don't really think wear on the camshaft is an issue if it met specs as long as the valves are adjusted properly, sealing properly,and moving properly. I gotta believe somebody had to know this engine wasn't quite right but didn't know what to do about it. I have no idea why they called your attention to the highlighted hp and rpm's and said it was "at stall". What does that mean. I'm thinking I don't know how a dyno test is performed. I'm going to bed...Hope I can sleep. Jeff
Hey j&d. You're right, I've just re-read my post and it doesn't convey what I meant to say. Can I backtrack and change it to "capable of making the correct torque at rated RPM" The reason being that HP at rated speed is correct, so torque at rated speed must also be correct, even though this figure isn't specified in the performance spec. You're right with your description of how a dyno run works and yes, the peak torque at overload is low, but if this were caused by a valve or timing issue, I would expect performance to suffer at all RPM's. If it were caused by underfuelling, I would expect no smoke during overload. My money (the little I've got, thankyou Mrs Cmark) is still on the tractor. By the way, that's not really my photo. It's a prediction of how we'll all look in the future after spending too many late nights two-finger typing.....
Easy now, don't give me much credit until this kitty is fixed. I'm siding with Cmark about a possible phantom load being the ultimate problem. My suggestions started with the easy, simple, and obvious. Test/check them first, eliminate them as culprit, then move on to the more complex. I believe I stated earlier that excessive black smoke, regardless of engine power or lack of, is generally caused by one of two things; 1) air/fuel ratio incorrect, i.e., more fuel in combustion chamber than can be burned by quantity of air in chamber, or 2) high load demand on engine causing the injection pump to "throw the coal" to the beast. Once we deterimine engine components are proper, then move on to the powertrain. PS, Cmark...I already look like that! :lmao
Exhaust Gas Regulator that what egr means. So maybe the muffler is faulty and blows exhaust gas in to the air cleaner via the coarse dust vacuum hose. But that's to easy ... On the other hand I've seen guys taking their engine apart because the oil pressure disappeared and all it took was a shorter dipstick .(to much oil in the engine)
As this thread demonstrates, repair by internet can be frustrating. You've heard about eco-tourism, where tourists pay big money to go look at intriguing birds and animals. How about dozer-tourism? Participants in this thread could fly in from around the world and poke and prod away until all is well. What one person misses another person often spots. I've spent days working on frustrating mechanical problems only to find the cause was something simple that I had assumed was fine. By now, you must have a long checklist of things to look at.:thumbsup
ehm i mean longer dipstick dipstick:Banghead
well damnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn this guy could have brought a new dozer from all these man hours here.. i say this is great to have this many people tryying to help and doing alot of background checks on dozer and engines hat off guyssssssss.... and good luck constuct o'
What all is on the motor during dyno test? There isn't anyway the engine oil pump could drag? Is there an aftercooler that could be leaking?
Check off list ! Heres a few things we can check off the list............. Tests was at idle,full throttle,at stall(third gear) Torque convertor was not over full(1 1/2) gallon of oil is what drained out. High RPM was close to 2300(actually higher then i would prefer) Checked RPM 2030 at stall(third gear) Boost at stall was higher then spec at stall Fuel pressure above spec Check with air cleaner out and in(oaky) Checl fuel drain back to tank it was open Checked hydraulic pressure it checked okay(no drag) on the pump Checked the timeing it was okay(on the high side of advance)checked it with meter and sensor in flywheel housing. The mechanic wrote down all the figure which he was going to email me ,but not yet,so can't post the exact figure off my head. Hydraulic control valve was rebuilt,ripper valve was checked okay. Next trip back will be the valve adjustment.With aircleaner off no pressure back through the air cleaner showing valve to tight,but they will get checked.We took a oil sample it had 235 hours on the oil,it will get changed as soon as we get done testing before it goes to work. I'm going to post a couple picutres on the smoke part.Will post today or this evening when i get time.:usa
I also got problem with my D6H! I have to pour some more water into radiator 5 to 10 liters fore 8 hours work! I dot no where it go! I got no water in the engine, the oil is black and no grey! And same whit the transmission! I got power so what is may problem? The smoke is not white only the first minute when it new started. I cant see any leak the macine is dry under! Pleas help me!
Hi constructo. Thanks for the update. I don't understand this part? Do you mean there is no unusual noise when you listen at the air cleaner, which could mean a suspect intake valve?
There was no unusual noise with the air cleaner off,as in puff back throught the air cleaner.Will be checking valve setting.Hopfully Monday!:usa
If the machine has an overflow pipe and not an expansion tank , don't fill the radiator to the top . Leave it about an inch below the filler neck , otherwise it will overflow when the water expands when hot and vent the excess until it reaches it's correct level .
You might want to start a new thread here later after you get your three post in to get answer for your problem. As for my thought ,check your waterpump(seal is bad),there is a weep hole that will drain out to keep the water from getting in the engine unless it gets plugged.Then it will seep into the engine. It is located down along the side of the pump close to the bottom of the pump.Usual it will be wet there.That just one place it can be going. Might be burning it and going out the stack.Hold you hand close to the stack at idle when you first start it.If it feels sticky it is probably anti-freeze(cracked head,headgasket).Good luck:usa
Smoke cover guard!!!! Here is a few picture of the excessive smoke as far as i'm thinking.I'm comparing the D6H to the D6R.They have different fuel pumps and are 10 years apart but............. i don't think they should be this much difference. First set is the H the last one is of the R.Big difference.Problem or no?????:usa
The black smoke by itself isn't necessarily a problem. But when you add what you stated in the original post that it's had low power since overhaul, there's the problem.
Thank you! But i got problem with starting new therd! thank you for help anyway!
Update as of today Test ,test ,and everything is checking out to be okay,except for one thing that is acting up that you can really tell. Is when you stall the machine for a while, then take it back out of stall and run the engine at full throttle the engine will pulsate.As in the the rpm will drop down then return back to full throttle.It keeps on doing it(up and down) until you throttle it down. Mechanic with 30 years experience with the dealer is working on the machine.Tested about everything you can test,plus he put it in the dirt and run it for a while. Checked valves(engine) was a little tight,not bad he reset them.Checked the turbo,checked all the tubing(from air cleaner) to the turbo.Checked the injection nozzles.They checked okay ,but he put in new anyway. Checked hydraulic system,torque convertor pressure, transmisson pump pressure,everything checked okay there.Only time it would drop was when the engine would pulsate. He is still trying to decide if something is dragging down the engine or it is the engine.Injection pump was going to be his last option,they aren't wanting to go there yet. They want me to get the machine out in the dirt to test it better and see what i think??????? They are taking rain,more rain so probably won't happen.The mechanic said not to give up on them that they was going to find and fix the problem. One last thing the boost is still at the bottom of the spec,but is right there. Need to go ,maybe you guys can chew on this today for me.Thanks:usa
is there anyway that your getting air in a fuel line? does it start easily in the morning?
It sounds like a fuel pump problem, maybe timing advance. I have seen it happen on Cat 3406B. You have a 3306 but all have timing advance.
Construct`o .....I quoted your last response and checked the injection nozzles.They checked okay ,but he put in new anyway. Question how did he check them? They are mechnical not electronic from what I'm gathering...... its older right? So did he pump them up with a injector tester? ( looks kinda like a hydralic lil jack but it pumps fuel to injectors and gauge to see pressures opening nozzle and injector screws into a metal line and sits downward to watch the spray pattern or fogging ) Did he just look at the nozzle tips and say they are clean?? I would worry there big time. Did he check nozzle seats??? Are they brass or not?? They can get damaged very easy installing or seat can be bad. And why replace them if he saw nothing wrong. Easiest way I've found to check (takes 2 people one cranking and one watching) is pull exhaust manifold, make sure turbo can't suck anything in it and crank it up and you will see a cylinder leak. Fuel out of the port, most of the time its real wet, like fastttttt. adds the black smoke you see and lost of power because its loading up that cylinder. turbo is I'm not a mech that replaces things that I know are in good working condition. I've seen this problems in alot of cummins. They blow black smoke, power sucks and were just rebuilt with new injectors from cummins recon.......
Timing will affect performance, but not all 3306's have a timing advance. In fact, most I have worked on did not have one.
Just put a reman head w/ 6 brand new nozzles on a 3306 PC, 2 of the 6 nozzles went bad after 1 hr. Low power, lots of black smoke
All injection pumps have some sort of advance in them only if it is only a few degrees. Im not really a good typer so I wont get into a long explaination. I had a Deutz last year I had a outside repair company remove and reinstall the injection pump. When is was installed it was drip timed and put back together when it started it was smoking black something it has never done and lasted about 15 min. and cooked. When they eebuilt the engine at their expense and re started it they found out it was 12 degrees adv. I guess in an air cooled engine that was enough to melt it down. After the timing was set properly with a pulse pick up and a timing light it ran fine and no more black smoke.
I understand that they all have some advance built into them. I may have misunderstood you, I assumed you were referring to a varible mechanical advance that some 3306 engines have. It is very easy to get the timing off a few degrees on a 3306 if you dont watch it closely when you tighten up the bolt.
Done Deal Fixed !!!!! First off thanks guys for all the help and posts !!!!! They finally took the injection pump off and sent it to the shop.It was gone for 4 days.Returned Firday and installed and tested.I put it too the test after the mechanic had finished up and we talked. I took it for a spin.Very good response(snappy),power and lots less black smoke,with less RPM's. Almost like day and night. Mechanic never really said what all was done,but did point out a couple things.The main thing was that he had a couple washer and a small washer with little roller bearing in it, that showed wear to me. He didn't say they was mine ,but was for show and tell more or less.He said you see it in pumps with high hours 9K or more. Not sure if everyone will understand,not sure i do ,but this is how he explained it to me the first washer, and bearing washer is close to the governor and the last washer pushes against the rack.The last washer had small deep pits on the face where it run against the rack.Which doesn't rotate or move to good when it opens the rack. There was more details,but not sure i'm getting everything right. Just funny he had those parts to show me ,for mine not having the problem.I have my thought,but the main thing it is fixed. Just a shame it took all this time to get something done.I will take some of the blame(lack of commucation sooner) ,but i think also something wasn't done right to start with(pump).I will at least give the dealer credit that they did come across with the fix:cool2. With the last post i was really beginning to wonder if it was all in my head:beatsme,with nothing showing up. So with that said........ the last thing worked on was the injection pump so i'm blaming it on that Sooooooooooo ! with that, we can send this thread to the cemetery:drinkup Thanks again everyone:notworthy:usa
It's been a heck of a ride, I've enjoyed every minute of it. I'm glad you got it fixed, even if the mechanic with the washer's was in CYA mode. Ahh yes, the old injection pump that wasn't fixed right the first time. I'm glad you pressed them until they got it right.
Glad to hear the machine is now fixed best wishes neil
Glad you got the machine fixed, it has been interesting and very informative to read. Its a good example of the benefits of HEF a very good support system.
No way,........ This one goes in the anything is possible archive :yup Great result, glad you got it sorted. :drinkup
Being a heavy equipment mech, and from what you have told us I would have the dealer that did the pump go through it again, sounds like they did not get the settings right.
Isn't it funny that, no matter what the mechanical problem, the problem always lies with the last thing that one looks at? Now, if one could only turn that order around . . . Glad to hear that it's running well again.
That's just not the way it works! I think it's one of those "Murphy's Laws" things. You know, like, "every tool dropped will fall to the exact center beneath the vehicle being worked on".
Dog gone it.I allmost had the adapter plate made for a new cummins motor for the cat dozer.Sometimes the simple problems are the hardest to fix.Thats good news Construct'O.
Now THAT would have made some eye's pop out!
d6h thinking of buying a d6h 93 with 3500 hrs. its missing torque converter and lift cylinders. whats the deal poor engine performance must be the torque converter? any one know where i can get this stuff? $?