Hello, what is the lowest safe temperature I should attempt to start my Case 580C? I use my 580c for burying horses, snow removal or other part time uses in the winter. It is shredded but not in any heated building. It has no plug in heater for the coolant or oil. I do not attempt to start it in weather below about 10 degrees F. With a shot of starting fluid it has always started and I let it warm up with out revving the engine or moving it. I don't want to take the change of injuring anything with a cold weather start. The guys in my Antique Tractor Club need some logs for the sawmill lifted onto a trailer as soon as possible. I hate that rock crushing sound when I start my 1982 GMC dump truck W/6.2 in the cold weather. Thanks for your thoughts, Kurt
I feel the same way. It's supposed to warm up on Monday so do it then if you can. Really you're not hurting anything by starting it as cold as it will start. Probably won't start much colder than zero even with ether, and why would you want to? It sounds like everything is in good shape for it to start that cold. A block heater makes a world of difference, even a tank style hung off the side works fine and is easy to install, not that a core plug heater is hard.
Yes Delmer we are penciled in for Monday. I've had the machine for over 10 years and it still has only 1800 hours. With the cab and heater I should put a engine block heater on it. That would also be a great excuse for all new antifreeze. Ive also got a frost tooth but luckily have never had to use it. Kurly
I've gone to about -15F (-26c) Below without too many issues. However, I winterized most of the machine beforehand. Lower winter rated oil (5w-40) and true winterized diesel. Don't forget many people work their diesels in far lower, but again have taken steps to ensure its readiness. Most around here have a block heater for an hour or two minimum when 0 to -10 with standard oil and winterized fuel only. Last year I had an issue at -20below with the diesel gelling, but I now believe it was not truly winterized from the fuel provider. Biggest issue IMO is cold batteries with only having less then a half cca at 0deg and 1/4 at -20deg. BTW the remedy for the gelled and non starting was to wait a day when it warmed to +24.. Moral sometimes waiting a day makes all the difference...
Yeah, I'll run my 580ck down cold, -10f, start and let it low idle for a minute or two to get everything circulating and then let it high idle for a while, usually some breakfast and a cup of coffee, sometimes a blanket over the nose will help slow the fan air down so that it washes over the block and trans and helps with the warmup. Once its warmed up it behaves just fine.
IF you have to stop and think weather you should take off your GLOVES to take a leak... ITS TO COLD.. Lol Seriously tho.. like the others have said.. if it'll spin over.. warm it up & run it..
Up here lots of people use magnetic block heaters that stick to the oil pan and usually the hydraulic tank. I've seen Hitachi excavators start at -40° so with some warm up time it should be good
I keep the 210LE in a shop at 40°F (4.4°C), heated enough to prevent freezing of the toilet and plumbing. The tractor also has a block heater if needed when left outside. But here is another thought...yesterday while pushing and clearing the white stuff at 10°F I scanned the block in several places with an IR and the highest readings I got were around 165° to 170°F, and this thing has a 180°F thermostat. I just wasn't working it hard enough in the ambient temps to get it warmed up. The hydraulic tank only reached 75°F. I tested the thermostat in a sauce pan and thermometer before installing in the new engine to make sure it was correct. Just because you can get it to start doesn't mean it will come up to temp unless you're turn'n and burn'n some diesel. Crazy weather here. We hit a record low for January 6 of -15°F and in a day or so it's suppose to mid 30°F maybe close to 40°F. What a swing!
Not sure of others here but I would suggest investing your money into a plug-in coolant heart in stead of the starting fluid. One time with a little too much of that stuff and you could do major damage to rings and other engine parts. Yes, I have used it as a last resort but would much rather have the block heater to let it start on it's own. I believe this link will take you to the Colman site that shows the factory block heater for your 580C: http://www.colemanequip.com/Case-580C-Loader-Backhoes-Parts/Engine-4l/CYLINDER-BLOCK-207-DIESEL-ENGINE-USED-BEFORE-ENGINE-S-N-2850355-0qyj/?#partdiagrams $35.00 to save doing damage to your engine seems like a bargain! Why someone would even sell a diesel powered machine in Wisconsin with out a block heater is beyond me!
The main problem with block heaters is that they require electricity. Often a machine is hundreds of yards away from power or like me, they are completely off grid. I've considered using a gasoline powered generator since gas engines are much easier to start in cold weather, but I suppose it would have to run a few hours to do much good.
Ok, I can understand that, some times one has to do what one has to do. The original poster did not specify there was no power available just that he did not have the heaters. Guess for a remote location a small gas genset would be something to consider. Besides just powering the block heater it would have many other uses. Just an example of something that would work. Small enough you could bring it in the house to keep it warm at night! http://www.harborfreight.com/engines-generators/gas-engine-generators/4000-peak3200-running-watts-65-hp-212cc-generator-carb-63089.html
Thank you guys! I will order the coleman heater as I can run a extension cord to it. Yes, I hate to use starting fluid. The tractor originally had a in dash knob for starting fluid which at least you could crank as you give it a little snort. It's a little more risky when you give it a shot then jump into the cab and crank it over. The original either setup hasn't been used in years and if I put a can on it and the cable stuck I'd really be in trouble. Kurly
Just got back in from looking the 580 over. The only Freeze/welch plug I can find is on the rear of the Cylinder head part #12 (1 3/4 cup, 41-1028) http://www.colemanequip.com/Case-58...D-COVER-207-DIESEL-ENGINE-0qfo/?#partdiagrams . The block heater assembly #44815 does not state size. Could this be where it is installed? My parts catalog shows the heater on page 34 with the Cylinder block, but the plug-cup type is shown on page 28 with the head assembly. The heater is 35.10+ cable/cord 15.50 + shipping 11.60 which comes to $62.20. I'm not complaining about price but just want to be sure I can install it without major disassembly. I'll call Coleman on Monday and hope the parts guy is knowledgeable. Has anyone installed a block heater on a Case w/ G207D engine? Kurly
I'm thinking that A44815 HEATER is the same one we used on the old Case 1845B skidsteers and a Drott crane we had with the same basic engine. As I recall it has 3/8 pipe threads on it and goes in a hole about centered front to back on the right side of the block, probably half way between the head gasket surface and the oil pan gasket.surface. Just checked the engines I used the heaters on were the 188D engines, which if memory serves me correct are just a slightly smaller displacement version of your 207D. Why is it when just about everyone posts a picture of a 188/207 block on the interweb they 98% show the injection pump side? Must be friends of thepumpguysc! Any how I think I may have found a usable picture: I'm thinking the hole in the block for the heater is the one with the red arrow pointing to it. I assume your tractor has a cab heater and probably uses the hole the green arrow points to so that would not be an option.
I have a 580c with 207 engine. Block heater threads in same side as injector pump toward the rear of the engine. I will try to remeber to get a picture tomorrow.
mine mounts in the green hole injection pump side
Case says the factory block heater for the 580C with a 188D goes on the injection pump side in a 3/8 NPT hole that is factory plugged with a 5/16 square drive plug just behind the fuel filter. The heater is available through Case dealers - I think I paid in the vicinity of $28. Depending on the condition of your motor, the installation could be a real b****. Maybe that's why alternative holes have been used. That square plug can be more than difficult to remove if it's been there untouched for almost 40 years. The proximity to the fuel line makes heating it a little risky though some have used some innovative approaches to that. The block heater instructions say to remove the fuel filter line and the two bottom bolts on the filter bracket and loosen the top bolt. Good luck with that, too. those bolts have been there just as long as the plug. I sprayed that plug with pb blaster and ground a 3/8 extension down to 5/16 and adapted it to a 1/2" drive impact and let that thing pound but no go. I sprayed it and repeated the impact in both directions trying to get it to break loose on many occasions over the months - to no avail. I did succeed in twisting that 3/8 extension into a pretzel though so I ordered a 5/16" square impact socket. That didn't work either. In one of those - "I know this is wrong but *** kind of moves" - I put on the longest 1/2" extension I have - at least 24" - and started moving the impact in as large a circle as I dared to trying to put more vibrations on the sides of the plug and to my complete shock it spun right out. Now I'm all set ----- wrong! The heating unit itself is a piece of 1/4"+/- copper bent in a horseshoe so it forms a 1/4" x !/2" oval when inserted in the block. Mine had enough concrete like sediment that had formed behind the plug on the bottom of the remaining threads in the hole that although the heating unit could be inserted in the hole - it couldn't rotate to tighten up. I could go on about the hammer and screwdrivers to knock out the blockages and the pipe thread taps to try and clean it out of the threads but suffice it to say that the $28 block heater is still sitting in the box and I've spent twice that on stuff trying to get it done - not counting when I had a stuck lug nut on my trailer and tried my new impact rotation trick and sheared the end right off the impact without the lug loosening up. Hope you have better luck with yours - or just put one in the lower radiator hose?
Good HONEST story Grady.. unfortunately its the norm.. THATS what makes fixing these things, so empowering when done.. Since I've been a member here, I cant think of 1 instance where someone sold a 580 that they went thru the trouble of fixing.. I guess its a matter of pride and accomplishment. I think a poll would be interesting.. Who sold a 580 after rebuilding??
Kurly said he has a cab and heater. So, he can easily put a canister heater in the hoses that go to his cab heater. The one in the photo is just an example of one of many available. I had one once and it was awesome. I would suggest using a timer with it because they do use a lot of electricity. There is another style available the splices into the lower radiator hose. But, that one would heat the coolant in the radiator to.
No, they circulate by convection only, and the cold comes back in the bottom half of the radiator hose. The radiator hose won't heat the radiator until it opens the thermostat, and it won't do that in cold weather. If you don't have a thermostat, or there's a bleed hole in the thermostat, lower the coolant level below the inlet on the top of the radiator. The tank style has to be lower than the engine and flow uphill to the engine without pockets to trap air. It will work with only one line going up, doesn't need to circulate with both lines, IF you knock out the check valve.
I'd put a magnetic block heater on it and be done. Those things will not fall off and they take 3 seconds to install. Especially if it's on something your not using much. Slap it on the side of the block an hour or two before you want to use it and be done with it. I'm also a fan of putting one on the hydraulic tank if it's real cold. In a pinch once I found that aiming the wife's hairdryer into the intake was more effective then starting fluid. I have a feeling that wasn't real great for the engine but two minutes of hot air into the intake and it started like it was 90*. The one thing I tell people with a block heater is that just because the engine is warm and fires right up doesn't mean the rest of the machine is ready to go. Let it warm up.
Just my personal opinion, while the tank type shown above do work if installed correctly, I have always preferred the in-block type. The only thing out side of the engine is the cord so it makes for a nice neat installation. In some application the tank type can be difficult to mount and keep everything protected from stray branches and such.
You can get silicone heater pads that glue on to the oil pan that are much better than the magnetic heaters. I tried a magnetic heater to warm the trans/hyd's on my tractor and it didn't do much at all. I guess it depends how cold you're talking about and if the machine is outside. We can get -40 here. Circulating heaters on the heater hoses work really good if a block heater is a pain to install.
Thanks so much everyone. Grady you are spot on about the 5/16" square hole pipe plug. Even with my extensive Snap-On tool collection I have no 5/16 square drive. I will still call Coleman tomorrow to confirm the thread size and get a 5/16" square drive socket but am leaning towards the lower heater hose heater or Magnetic heater. Luckily temps should be much warmer tomorrow for our little project. I really like the engine block heater as it is the best spot to put the heat. I think the (green) drain port hole would be easier to remove as it is probably brass and the block could be heated without removing fuel filters and lines. Is it the same thread and there is room in the block for the heating element to be threaded in??? The saga continues... but thanks all for the insite. I'll report my findings. Kurly
I'm not much help I had a 580C with a block heater but can't remember exactly where I put it . Bought it from the dealer and followed the instructions most likely. Regardless it must have been fairly painless or I'd remember.
The petcoks are usually 1/4" NPT, but that's easy enough to check. That plug can't be that hard to get out, if you snap off a ground down extension, then stick a nut on top of the hole and weld that hole up with a stick welder and immediately tap it with a hammer. You might be able to turn it out by hand once it cools. If the coolant passage is full of water, well now you know that you need to flush your coolant more often.
pumpguy, I think '68 fixed up and then sold a 580CK - and then bought it back! - so I guess you're right. I hope I didn't discourage Kurly or anyone but there can be more to it than meets the eye so it's good to be forewarned about the possibilities. Delmer, If you're talking about my concrete sediment behind the plug, you're probably right. When I drained the radiator, the coolant was green at first and then turned into a rust colored mud towards the end. It took me quite a while to get it flushed out. The guy I got it from was old, sick, and couldn't do or afford the maintenance any more so it has given me some challenges and I've benefitted greatly from all the help I've got here. Many thanks. I'm a big believer in clean fluids - even the oil in my lawn mower is clean. My equipment is old but the fluids are all good quality and in good condition. My 1988 K2500 [gas not diesel] has 300K. I had a '79 Volvo 240 with 550K that still ran fine when I parked it. Want it to last? Change the oil.
Well I ordered the Kit from Coleman, new # A182030 and it comes with the electrical (cord $34.25 + $10.32 shipping). They were unable to provide thread size or any information on installation but I feel confident on the install. Will give her a good flush and fill with new coolant/antifreeze. I'll report back on my install. Kurly
The threads on the block heater and the threads in the block are both 3/8 NPT so that won't be an issue. Good luck.
While not as cold as our buddies further north ... It was 4 degrees F this morning in North Carolina. a couple of hours with the block heater on 150 feet of extension cord .... the 310C fired up as if it was Spring time. A block heater is truly a good thing. Better than a shot of ether. Interesting point: When on, the block heater makes a "sizzling" sound. I wonder ... is it the coolant boiling on the heating element?
I would say it's the coolant listening for that sizzling was how i use to tell if it was working.
A quick up date, the Case block heater kit arrived from Coleman and seems just what I need and want. Snap-On doesn't make a 5/16" square head pipe plug socket, or at least my dealer couldn't find one in his book or computer. I reluctantly bought a 3/8 drive China impact off the internet for 6 bucks. With a little heat from a hand held propane torch using Map gas, surprisingly the plug easily came out. The pipe plug that the instructions say to use is the one with the circular boss around it. I will try to attach the instructions. A warm up is expected for Saturday so I'll try and install it then. So far so good, thanks all for the input. View attachment Case block heater.pdf Kurt
here is a picture of the block heater.
P.S. The plug is the one between the green arrow and red arrow in kshansen post #14 Kurly
The higher up one? Do as they say in those instructions and do not get tempted to plug it in before installing and filling with coolant, they will burn up in short order. Also note how they say to not leave it plugged in with engine running, that also can cause a fast failure. I always made it a habit to unplug before getting in the machine. Two good things about that, one you won't forget and start it with it still plugged in and two you won't forget and get in a hurry and drive off a ripe out the cord.
Kurt you are talking about a plug with a recessed 5/16 square in it right? If so maybe you need a new Snap-On tool man: https://store.snapon.com/Pipe-Plug-inches-chrome-Socket-Pipe-Plug-External-5-16--P641829.aspx Or if your plug has a 5/16 male square sticking out you could use an eight point socket or as Snappy calls them "double square". https://store.snapon.com/Double-Square-inches-chrome-Socket-Double-Square-5-16-8-Point-P631718.aspx I almost never go on the Snap-On site to look things up and I found both in only a few minutes. I would print this out and rub his nose in it just to show him how he lost a sale!
It is hard for me to understand why a person who lives in a climate that has days below 0 F would not put a block heater in. I could be wrong but it seems like a simple process to install one. Or if not a block heater an outside crank case heater. Am I missing something?
Yes kshansen it is a pipe plug with a recessed 5/16" square female hole. I will let Snappy know. We have had a revolving door lately with dealers. This new guy actually told me to check at Harbor Freight???? I will feel better in the long run with a block heater rather than dipstick, heater hose or oil pan heater
block heaters are the most effective heaters
Success! I installed the block heater today all went very well. One note to anyone who is performing this task is that I was able to remove the plug, run a tap through the hole and install the heater without loosening or removing the fuel lines as the instruction state. I was just able to just sneak past the fuel line with a thin walled 1" socket to install the heater. This simplified the procedure immensely. My first try to tighten the heater was with a deep well impact socket which was too thick. Thanks again for everyones input. Kurt
All come down to money, either buyer trying to save a buck or a sales person trying to get his bid price down below a competitor. I agree there is no good reason why a diesel powered anything that will be used anywhere short of a tropical climate should be lacking at the minimum a in-block heater and if in some place where it can get in to negative number on the F scale a fuel heater would be a close second.
WHAT!! sorry for yelling, but a Snap-On dealer sent you to Haba-Fright? What is next Mercedes Benz dealer telling you to go to a Yugo dealer because he can locate a a car in the color you were looking for? I have nothing against Harbor Freight for somethings, have one of their 20 ton presses and a motorcycle lift that also doubles as a work platform for snow blowers and lawn mowers. Just need to know what you are buying and be willing to take a chance on the quality. If you are going to be rebuilding a D8 out in the bush of Australia I would not suggest depending solely on HF tools, but if you need say a 2 1/4 socket for a job you might never have to do again for twenty years and the store is 5 miles away that is different
Now we just have to wait for one of those "Alberta Clippers" to come through to give it a real test! https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiqtq3--tHRAhWB0YMKHd4iBSkQFgglMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAlberta_clipper&usg=AFQjCNGXMX-c_itjQyi54kt_xlXTxbhzMw&sig2=-pyI_e0vKZwrOjxyQucRBg&bvm=bv.144224172,d.amc
Just got this installed myself. Went pretty smooth. I’ll double check it tomorrow before testing it out.
For those square recessed plugs I weld two short bolts together stem to stem. Then I grind the head of one of them to fit the stupid plug. How many watts is the block heater rated at ? Just curious.
I actually had a 8mm square socket that fit pretty well. I sprayed it and gently went at it with my impact gun and it’s came right out. I believe the heater is 1000 watts.
I installed the same heater as Kurly and Darren ,was rated at 1000 watts works pretty slick.Most of the time an hour or so does the trick,if single digits a little longer..When we have a major "snow event" coming I plug it in at night so its nice and toasty in the AM..As far as plug removal I ground down a 3/8 garbage freight impact extension..
Good idea with he 3/8 extension.
Had the set of Snappy square sockets at work but that was a 94 mile round trip, so the cheap extension was the solution...make do with what ya got..that hole sure did look to be 3/8 when I ordered the heater
wit a block heater i dont think it should maqtter. i let most of my equipment run at idle or where the engne liks to run smooth for 15 min
even a remote machine with no power nearby could be heated and safely started with a portable generator. Drink coffee in your warm truck while the block heats up a bit.