So, I want to try and do some dirt work yet this winter. Today, I bought four 300 watt and two 200 watt magnetic heaters. My 290 has a block heater, the 210 does not. I put two 300 W heaters on each hydraulic tank, close to the bottom, as far apart as I could. Then I put the two 200 W heaters on opposite sides of the oil pan on the 210. Generator is running, machines are dead cold, haven't been started in a week. Does anyone think that this might be too much for the oil? It says they can get to 300-400 degrees, but I wouldn't think that 600 W could warm up 50 gallons of hydraulic oil that much? Thoughts? I plan on being out here at 730 so they will be on for 12 hours.
Block heaters are 750 and 1500 watt
If it gets the oil hot enough, it will be thin enough to circulate and the whole tank will be hot enough to easily lose 600W, so you'll reach equilibrium somewhere between cool and warm.
You should be fine. The tank walls will spread the heat some and certainly aren't going to get hot enough to cook the full reservoir of oil. They say you can use a water heater element on half voltage as a hyd. oil heater, ie/ 220 volt water heater on 110 volts and that's in direct contact with the oil. In order to cook the oil, I think you'd have to be burning the paint off. My skid steer has a lot of cooked paint just from regular operation. Crappy factory paint and I doubt any primer was even used. A guy that did some work for me said his Case 850K dozer had some of paint get cooked on his oil reservoir too but not nearly as bad.
I know that they can't possibly heat the entire contents hot enough to hurt the oil, but was wondering if it was possible to get the oil too hot right next to the heater. Physics probably say that it would be impossible for oil damage to occur unless the entire contents reached critical temp. Thanks for the replies.
Especially with the heaters on the outside it would be near impossible to overheat the oil on the inside opposite the heater.
I would think the heated oil would circulate convectionally in the tank.
They also make Ultra Low Watt Density(ULWD) water heater elements to reduce scorching. Basically, make the element longer (wavy) at the same rated power output. This disperses the heat over a larger surface area, reducing the intensity, thus not cooking the fluid.
I bought one of those magnetic heaters to put on the oil pan of my pickup. Honestly, I think a lighter on the oil pan would have been more effective.
I’ve got one in my service truck I bought years ago thinking it would help a frozen machine. Wasn’t impressed.
I have a couple i bought years ago,not real effective
Honestly though, even if they only heated the oil 20 or 30 degrees above ambient it might make all the difference.
Id bet you get serious cold where you are. When im working up north coolant block heaters help,but the only thing that kept us going were the frost fighters and insulated tarps.We tried leaving the excavator running continuously one night the crankcase ventalation froze up and it forced its oil out the front crank seal . it ran enough to get on the lowbed to town for a new engine.-20c to -40c Tarps and frost fighters on every thing after that.
Used a big frost fighter to keep the oil I was changing on a wheel loader warm. Put 2 heat vents under the entire differential housing for about 2 hours. Then spin them up for 2 minutes and dump. Pump the hot oil back in and move on to next component. That how I did it in Minus 30C. Have used 3 Magnetic heaters on at once on a car I use to own to warm oil for the whole night. Worked until I got block heater going again. Simon C
I had better luck with the glue on mat heaters on hydraulic tanks, than the magnetic ones. Seems to spread the heat out more and work better. Has to be clean where you glue it on at, and I don't think you would want to glue it on a cold tank. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00PM950B...fb4c22e3&language=en_US&ref_=as_li_ss_tl&th=1
I was pretty happy with two magnet heaters on an engine overnight made the difference on some temperamental engines but then again were I live the old mechanics light on the intake pipe overnight works to so probably a different story we never see anything colder than about 20 degrees and that's rare usually it's just about freezing for a low
Crane op that seems way handier than trying to install a block heater, I may have to check that out.
The glue on type are for sure better but not something you can install in the cold. My welder has one but I've never had to start it in the cold.
.In my opinion-in real cold weather, nothing heats an engine as well as an immersion type block heater, warming the engine coolant. I don’t think a magnetic heater on the oil pan, or a glue on silicone on the pan, does near as much good on a engine. I’ve had equipment that had coolant lines immersed in hydraulic tanks and fuel tanks, to warm those fluids also-but that’s a lot of work, unless you’re running all the time in extreme temperatures.
One time we rigged up a fleet of new excavators with diesel fired coolant heaters and plumbed them into the engine and into a probe in the hydraulic tank. 35 below was pretty common in winter where these machines were going. My biggest concern is the probe springing a leak and dumping coolant into the hydraulic oil. Seems like that'd be a $$$$$ bill to clean up.
I ran Arctic Fox coolant powered fuel tank heaters on my truck, never had a issue, never seen a issue. https://www.arctic-fox.eu/products/in-tank-fuel-heater
I have had propane fired coolant heaters on a couple of my Americans.Just never liked chasing for propane. The diesel ones sound first class as theres always diesel around. Getting a Vibro sent up north with no provisions for heating was a problem. The hammer with 150' of big hyd hose coiled on it and a couple of hundred gallons of hyd and engine oil in it would show up as a block of ice. 2 days under insulated tarps and a frostfighter blazing away would cure it. Then it would stay running 24 /7 with the hammer running in reververse to keep the oil from freezing. Good times , gotta love this sitting by woodstove reminiscing.
Diesel fired coolant (or hyd) heaters are the best, even running for just 10-20 mins makes a huge difference.
My former neighbor worked on a job in the Yukon I think. It was -40 with a windchill most of the time. He said they had to leave engines running near full throttle to keep the machines from freezing. He said he's never more worn out machines than those.
Magnetic heaters work great for keeping your steel work bench warm.
I've considered ProHeat before, but that still only solves the engine starting. I don't plan on working if it's below zero for the high temps. I don't have a problem with things starting, I can almost always figure out how to accomplish that, but like Dave says, I'm more concerned about the wear on the components. Sure, the engine is started, but you better plan on 20-30 min before you want to consider touching a hydraulic, and then another 10 minutes of attempting to warm the hydraulic oil. I mean, eventually you get going, but at what cost really? I'd think every cold start like this could possibly take 100 hours or more off the life of the hydraulic pump? Seems like these manufacturers have had 50 years to figure out cold weather operations, and haven't done **** besides a block heater.
The Proheat on local gravel pits WA500 loaders also heats the hyd tank. Not sure how they do it, but they work good.
The crane I had that was the most "cold weather" prepared, came out of canada. It had block heater, then coolant lines running a loop in the hydraulic tank, running a loop in the fuel tank, and running a loop to the lower cab heater, and to a similar heater in the rigging box to keep the nylon's warm. Rigging actually can freeze the moisture in them, and become brittle in extreme temps, but that's the only crane I've ever seen with a heated rigging box. The loop of coolant in the hyd. tank was I think 3/4" black pipe nipples welded in the wall of the hyd. tank, and a loop of pipe or two inside the tank. If you could get the engine to temp, the hyd. was good to kick the pumps in. But you had to spend some time slowly exercising cylinders and winches to move warmer oil from the tank, exchanging with the cold oil from the machine. The coldest I've ever got a "cold" crane started, and then to operating temps was when I lived in iowa, I started that morning at 15-18 below with a cold crane, and it took me about 3 1/2 hours to get hydraulic to operating temps. It was a big waste of time.
Cold weather is definitely hard on things. Brand new boom lifts would show up out of the US with cylinders and the rotary actuators for the platform leaking before they even parked in the yard. Was not uncommon to have to re-seal at least 1 or 2 components with winter seals during the PDI in the winter months.
I find it odd that hydraulic tank heaters would not be a option offered on new machines depending on locale. What the heck extra sales.
Depending on where a truck was ordered for delivery, Dodge did not install block heaters on their Cummins. I worked with a guy in North Dakota that was from Texas, somewhere near the Gulf. Drove his truck up near Kenmare in November, and was shocked to see everyone else plugging their trucks in. One of the other guys explained block heaters to him and showed him where his 'should' have been. He had a dealer put one in before long. I would have thought any factory diesel would come with one, but I'm from Michigan and block heaters are standard here. Even my Ford v10 has one. I've never used it, but its there.
It's pretty much standard on class eight, but my question is why not hydraulics. Here in the NW some do some don't when it comes to personal vehicles.
All Ford diesels have block heaters but not all have the cord, which is hilarious. Black pipe welded inside the tank is not a very good heat exchanger, if you were going to do this you should install a heat exchanger in the tank, very little heat from the pipe is getting into the hydraulics.
If you access to plug in a block heater I think a glue on pad heater would work for the hyd. tank. There are thread in hyd. oil heaters but you need the fitting welded on the tank to fit them. I had 1 installed on my skid steer as an option. The fitting was already on the tank. It was a very minor addition to the cost. I don't think they are very common on skid steers or other equipment though.
If you are running in cold temps a lot it pays to switch over to arctic oils or full synthetic in trans and hydraulics. If you have the right oil you really don’t need to worry about hydraulics until you get below minus 40. Once you get below that the hose flex becomes a problem . We install a lot of diesel heaters to heat the engine coolant which work well.
I remember a tag on a old hyd tank, rig was built in 1977. Tag basically said normal temp use hyd oil, freezing temps use either was 2:2 or 4:1 hydraulic oil to kerosene. I might have to find that rig to look at it again
Mobiltech has a good point. It’s a pain in the arse, but I switch my truck mounted wet kits to expensive arctic oil. Then, switch back in the summer. Sometimes I forget to switch back. Sometimes I run the expensive stuff all year. Kendall Hyken Glacier Blu. That’s the ticket.
I've talked about this on here before, the 290 already has the fancy HO56 synthetic hydraulic oil.
HO56 is expensive stuff. I saw a couple pallets of drums in the warehouse. Shipped in for SMS. I’m curious who blends it? Idemitsu, probably. I’ll ask the warehouse manager. I’m thinking that your machine might be fine, as is, working in those temps.
I'm not sure either, and don't get me started on this crap either. Once again, a brand-specific fluid that there is no known equivalent. Don't get me wrong, it does seem to limber up a little better than the Case, but I still don't want to be doing it dead cold day after day.
The FR11 thread led me to this. Why wouldn't this work for the hydraulics on an excavator? https://phillipsandtemro.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/LIT0203P-TopStart-Biodiesel-LR.pdf
BSPP fittings, make sure you get matching nipples.
Odd I was just looking at that online today.
A TRUE CIRCULATING heater, but why? A silicone pad on the bottom of each compartment will do the same thing. Doesn't have to be hot, just not frigid. You still want to limber it up before doing any hard work to avoid shocking the cold steel.
Will it really though? My thought is the silicone pad will be losing a certain amount of heat to the ambient air, heat that never gets added to the fluid. The circulating heater will put nearly all the generated heat into the fluid, it will only lose what it will though the lines before it gets to the tank. The heat lost through the tank will be the same, only slightly less because of the spot covered by the pad.
Just shut her down Shimmy. Stop trying to be an over achiever. Ha, Mine is already in the shop for winter maintenance.
I think we're there, lol. Snow pretty deep now. The 210 will be getting new shoes this winter, it's completely done. Rails, sprockets, rollers, idlers, and need to rebuild the idler slides. 5300 hours with a lot of tree work. Monitor is showing 1100 hours of travel time, 975 in rabbit, so we got our money's worth out of it.
I think a large pad heater would work much better than a magnetic heater because it covers so much more surface area. The edges around it would be cold but the middle would stay pretty hot. If they work to help start an engine, they should work great to warm hyd. oil. If you really wanted you could probably wrap insulation on it as well.
When I look at that circulating heater I think what does it do when the oil is too thick to pump at 25litres per minute? Would it just cavitate ? I have seen forestry equipment shipped with too heavy of hydraulic oil to a job site at -40. They went to move the machine and it blew the output shaft seals out of the motors from super high case drain pressure. The machine was running and circulating the oil when it came in on the truck but the travel motors didn’t like it. In that case no tank heater would work either. When we flushed the thick oil out to put in the synthetic we took a hose off at the saw head to get the heavy oil out. I was able to stack the oil in a pail like a rope it was so thick. Get the proper oil for your operating temp .
Well, isn't HO56 about as proper as I can get?
I'm surprised, my 210 has 9500 hours about 7500 working and undercarriage still in decent shape, only done both idlers. The only time I ever run in rabbit is cleaning the tracks though. I'd prefer to avoid winter work too, it's such a pain but from the looks of it, will be working steady all january, provided weather is decent. Much lower then 0F I won't run though, too hard on stuff.
This machine has spent a good portion of its life carrying trees to a pile or burn pit, sometimes carrying nearly it's rated lift capacity for 200 yards. Then crawl back and do it again, always in high. I change the oil in the finals yearly, which is usually around 500-600 hours. I'm sure what I do is considered atrocious by some, but taking into account what the machine has made makes the new undercarriage seem cheap. What will be interesting is if the ITR holds up as long as the OEM did.
Apperently JD was listening to you Shimmy. My 6150R tractor has both a block heater and a transmissin heater. both are wired into the same plug in.
Is it an IVT?
Those pads do work well, we've used them on stationary hydro equipment outdoors when there wasn't a bung available for an immersion heater.
Nope its a power quad.
Power quad has definitely grown to be my favorite tractor transmission. We have 4 tractors with full powershifts, 3 with power quad and 1 with IVT. The power quads with power reverser are by far my favorite especially for loader work.