I didn't know McAnich ran D10Ts... interesting!
They run D11R's with converted 651 pans too. I am going to try to post some pics of them here, if the BB will let me....these pics feature my dakota and my 93 D350, for size comparison....
2 at a time, so be it.....second features my friend Pam, she's an operator too..she's about 5'3", can ya' tell it's a big dozer?
These pics were taken here in Omaha in 2006, they were doing a shopping center here. Here are some other pics from the job, they had a number of D8-9-10's with pans, 631 and 641 pull pans. I never actually got to see the D11 working, unfortunately....
More job pics....
awesome pics man
Very very cool, how much dirt did they have to move? I'd love to see one of their operations one of these days, especially with the 11/651's, or maybe even their new(er) 5110's and 777's. keep the excellent pictures coming!:thumbsup
I never saw anyone running those when I lived in NE, dam I missed out on D9/10s years ago. I think I like pushpulls better still speed kills but it beats going slow. :Cowboy
I can't remember what the yardage was, and the D11 wasn't there long. Very wet dirt and a tight schedule, we didn't even bid it. The thing about those Cat/can combo's, rain doesn't bother them much, and they can get back to work sooner. How they make it pay, what with undercarriage costs, i just don't know....you need to go to Missouri, or North carolina, to see their big jobs.. http://www.mcaninchcorp.com/default.asp MoDot http://www.modot.org/central/major_projects/Route5Progress.htm
I bet that the undercarriage life is not as bad as one would think.....they are always going forward:bouncegri !!
Wow you don't see dozer pulled scrapers anymore. That has to be expensive way of moving dirt.
wow a D11 scraper is a pretty big scraper..
nice shots
I was going to make separate post about this, but will go ahead and ask here. What's the benefit of running a dozer pulled scraper? In contrast to conventional scrapers? I know that McAninch Corp. is a well established and profitable earthmoving company, so I'm sure there's a reason. But I just can't see how they're faster, lower cost or easier to maintain than single or twin engine scrapers or pull-pans in soft conditions. Does anyone know the reasoning behind this? I know there must be a reason for this system considering the company owns such a large fleet of dozer pulled scrapers, I just haven't found that answer or figured it out myself.
Crawler pulled pans. Hi, Folks. Yes, there are still a few 'dinosaurs' out there. There are a LOT of posts on the old ACMOC BB from and about a gentleman in England who still uses 8 Cat D8K's and converted Cat 463 scrapers to move largish volumes of material on a fair number of jobs around his way. You can find most of these posts here. Just look for anything posted by Roly D8K. http://acmoc.phpwebhosting.com/viewforum.php?f=6&sid=123599b4afa75bb3022000789cd6d2d0 Please try NOT to drool over the pages. Other people want to view them too. You all have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.
I read something on McAninch's web site a while ago, I think it was an article out of a magazine. Anyway it didn't go into a whole lot of detail as the artile was about the company and how it started and so on. It just said that the regular scapers weren't effiecent enough and that they reduced the fuel consumption of support equipment by a lot.
I know the afternoon I was watching them work, in the muddy parts of the job the moisture content was running 18-25%, those tractors would just keep going. I remember thinking that they were making as good or better time than the 627's I run could, as I'd have been in second gear at full throttle for minutes on end just to wade through the stuff. The crawlers don't waste time waiting for a push cat, or pump loading just to get a half load on, and then have to wade to the fill to get rid of it again. How they make money on a longer haul, or in good material, I don't know. They make their own haul roads, so no expense using a grader there. The cat/can combos didn't tear the job up as bad as rubber tired units would have, which is important in Nebraska in the summer, as rain can come along with short warning. They had a large disc and several compactors processing the fill, laid down in thin lifts and covering a large surface area. They were loading dryer soil in these pics, to mix the fill. Something you have to do a lot in this area. You frequently have to make several fills on jobs around here, lay a wet pass down and then move away for a day or so while the material is disked to dry it out. Either that or haul from different cuts to blend wet and dry dirt together. Still not sure how they make money with undercarriage costs what they are. alan627b
That makes sense. I can see how conditions in areas with higher levels of precipitation would call for methods like that, where dozer-pulled scrapers would fit the bill.
From what I have seen they will go to excavator/truck after the dozer/pan becomes inefficient due to haul distance. They have at least twice as many track loaders as they do self-propelled scrapers.
That is true, the artics will go where the scrapers can't but.... then you need a dozer or compactor to spread the stuff out, which packs the mud down, then a disc to loosen it back up and dry it, so I guess it depends on your operation plan..they had ADT's on this job too, and used them with a 385 excavator to re route a creek that ran through the job. That dirt was even worse....and black too. They must have a way to make it pay, to get as big as they are. And a lot of the soil in Iowa is even worse than it is in Nebraska. Probably why stuff grows so well, at least until we build stuff on top of it. It seems like we are growing more houses around here than anything. I wonder if it will bite us in the ass someday though.... Listen to the Kansas song, "Song For America" sometime.... alan627b
I have a Cat D8K & can I use for close dirt and any material that isn't suitable for a 623. Most people here in Ca. snicker at it but it is a very versitile machine when the going gets tough call in a crawler. The scraper is simple and has low operating cost but I wouldn't want a fleet of them . DP
No operator on the scraper to pay, no tyres spun on the scoop, no brakes to repair and come to mention it an engine or trans, no deisel costs, minimal haul road to maintain, gradients are not an issue along with wet jobs and it goes on from there but they would be some of the savings to start with. I would think some sort of blade on the tractors may make them a little more versatile but obviously they have it figured out and always enough support gear around knowing them. I heard they are the only contractor Caterpillar allows to do there own warranty work.
They are one of a very few contractors allowed to do their own warranty work, but not THE only one. The company I work for is also certified by Cat to do their own warranty work on our machines. I'm sure it is a very short list however.:cool2
From what I have gathered McAninch doesn't want there cycle times to get much over 4 minutes. I read somewhere that they don't put those on more than a 1000' haul route. Say that the dozer is going 8 mph. That is 2.84 minutes total travel time. Say .5 minutes loading time (correct me there), then .4 minutes unloading (correct me there). So thats about 3.7 minutes total. Then the D11R is burning about 20 gal./hour (since its pulling a scraper). The machine rate for the dozer is less, there taking off the blade. No cylinders, pins, lines etc. to worry about up there. Then there taking away from the front half of a pan, no engine to worry about. All they got to wory about is apron cylinders, ejector, and cylinders for raising the bowl. Then again your adding lines for the dozer/pan hookup. So theres a less rate there as well. I'm sure McAninch isn't real greedy, so not a whole lot of markup put on the hourly rates. So there is the efficiency and lower cost on the pull pans in my opinion.
Who is your outfit Jimbruce?
Allen A. Myers, Inc of American Infrastructure.
Gavin,I think one reason they do not have a blade on is too much weight to the front of the tractor. I remember years ago hanging round jobs and listening to the drivers talk and I remember someone talking to this guy Charlie Moffat who was operating a 68A and box. Charlie was asked why the blade was still on and I remember him telling the guy he was only needing a small piece of box work done and he was just putting up with the hassle as the tractor was badly balenced with the blade on until he was finished. Perhaps some of the other tractor and box men could explain Neil
Blades off for towed scraper work Hi, Neil D. The main reason for taking the blade off of a dozer for towed scraper work is improved manouverability and visibility but it is a +/- situation because you do lose a fair bit traction by removing the blade. I once ran a Cat D7E with a LeTourneau Model LP scraper hauling sand in a marshy area. on one trip back to the borrow area, I pulled a clump of reeds out of the middle of the haul road with the scraper cutting edge and dumped it off to the side. When I came back with the next load, the rear end of the tractor dropped through the ground as it passed over here I had pulled the reeds out of the ground - and I mean DROPPED through. And I was BOGGED. If I had still had the blade on, I can see one of two scenarios happening: 1. The extra weight on the front of the machine would have dropped the front through the ground first, in which case I may, reapeat M-A-Y, have been able to back out. 2. If the front had gone across the spot where I had taken the reeds out and it was still the back end that dropped through, I might well have had enough extra traction to pull out of it, which then poses the question, what might have happened when the loaded scraper got to that point? I guess I'll never know the answer to either of those scenarios. And all that for removing a clump of reeds. My employer of the time was going to buy a block in that sub-division, right up until he saw the tractor bogged and saw what was under it - 60 feet of black, oozy silt with only about 2-3 feet of sand over it. And they have built houses on it. Countryboy, could we have another rousing cheer, please?
Huh Hmmm...... YEE HAW :Cowboy
Thank you, Cowboy. Hi, Cowboy. Thank you.
Big Mac orders their scraper tractors without the blades, I assume maybe they convert older dozers. Then again, I doubt there are too many "old" D9T's yet...it killed me that their pull scrapers had better tires than most of our self propelled ones! I saw one of thier D11's, 3 days old from Cat in Peoria, at a Cat show in Iowa in 2003. Cost of that tractor, with no blade and the hydraulic system for the 651 pan it pulled, was $1.3 million...! It's impressive, to say the least. alan627b
is pam in the picture pamela nutter or known as "Pebbles"? local 234 operator?
$1.3 million each is alot plus the price of the pan, for that price you could have 4 jd 9520 set ups with dual 21 yard pans on each, so if you had 3 d11's you could have 12 jd 9520's, they must have money to burn, that dozer would sure have to move alot of dirt to pay for itself
cool! we dont have any thing like these here i have heard abuot them though. i think it is really cool how operations change from state to state< we commonly have to use haul trucks. but we had a chance to run some 621's in sand it was a blast! does anyone know about how far the turn around is for these set ups? i could see how it could be rough on the under carriage, what is the standard lifespan for an under carriage on these set ups?
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums jamesbrokman! :drinkup
hey jamesbrokman. you make a great point! that is alot of money! we used a case farm tractor with dual cans and it worked great, i think they are probably alot faster too. one thing to think about is if the company in question has to deal with some bad wet clay these tractors may be the ticket. i have also heard about a machine they use in the south that is like a scraper/ dozer hybrid. does any one know what i am talking about? if so please post some pics
I would like too see those 4 john deeres do anything but sit and spin their wheels in the wet sicky hard clay that these crawlers work in effecintly. Im sure the tractor & pans would be better in ideal conditions, but they would have to be amazingly efficent to offset the time they would spend sitting waiting for it to dry out, well the dozer & pan would still be working (be it not the most efficent). On the other end is the excavator & off road truck, less efficent than scrapers (for short hauls), but capible of working in just about any conditions. The big factor would be local moisture and material conditions, and if you have enough time to wait for dry weather.
tracks vs rubber tires For years, the only way to go was catpan combos, then we had our first self loading rubber tire scraper. Very awesome cept if you ever need to top load it it was a pain, and lil bit of rain and you were done for the day. Here at my new job my boss and I have been trying to do some calculating on what would be the best possible set up for our quarry stripping and still have equipment useable for other types of work that we may need to do. Right now we are using two ADT's, an excavator and dozer for most of the quarries. Biggest problem we have alot of times is man power, they usually take some dumptruck drivers from one of the plants to come and help us, but as soon as they are needed, there gone from us. We are going to look into scraper tractor/pan comobs next spring. Try them out, see how many different things we can use them for, cost, and most of all being efficient. As far as the pull scrapers go, we just sold one of our old ones(BEE GEE) to a farm impliment dealer for $4000 more than we paid for it new(in the 60's) and he has been renting it out to famers to pull behind big four wheel drive tractors and such. Still pulling it with a dozer in swampy or wet conditions is the best way to go, but for quick turnaround and long hauls the tractor wins. Trbo
Here's the link after some searching: http://acmoc.phpwebhosting.com/view...ys=0&postorder=asc&highlight=roly+d8k&start=0
They make tractors with tracks too. Down here we got the wet sticky clay part down, but the only pan/scrapers use have rubber tires not that there are very many.
will make I have worked with them on several projects and the Dozer/pan is not slower than a conventional scraper in shorter haul or in bad conditions. Some of the reasons I see them using Cats and pull pans are; Don't need a push cat (will self load), will run in wetter soil, (the weight of the tractor/pan is spread over tracks and 4 tires not just four tires like a conventional scraper. Tracks will pull better than tires), tractor/pans will make faster cycle times ( no waiting for push cat, or other scraper to push or pull), cost per yard tracks are cheaper than tires, The soil around central Iowa is some funny stuff and cats/pull scrapers work the best, McAninch Corp. just expanded on it by finding other areas that they could operate with this combination. McAninch Corp. was moving dirt when other scrapers could not even think of going, on one job I watched them do, another contractor set for weeks with conventional scraper and John Deere 4WD/ John Deere track tractors pulling pans.McAninch Corp was done and finish grading when the other contractor just got started, (McAninch Corp. was done paid and doing another job while the other contractor sat waiting for the weather????, how is that cheaper for the other company??) . For long hauls they use excavators and haul trucks.
McAninch Corp. is not an dinosaur company. They do a lot of Big construction projects all over the United States with their Cat/pull scraper combinations. Their shop is top notch and certified to do Caterpillar warranty work. Their shop makes most Caterpillar Dealers shops look bad. I got to tour their shop and see their operation and it is top notch. They were one of the first companies to use GPS on scrapers and excavators. Caterpillar/Ziegler does a lot of Demo/experimenting with McAninch Corp. When I set my GPS system up Trimble took me to see McAninch Corp equipment and how it was set up. I got to see their Computer system/GPS system and it is impressive.
You took the words right out of my mouth, I toured it as well this past summer. Their facility puts Cats facilities to shame. It is unreal, my favorite part was the entrance where all the old restored iron is. They are a company that will be known forever.
Big Mac is a good company. They dont follow trends. They do things differently, and it must be working for them. They were one of the first to use GPS. Their methods are different than everyone else outside of Iowa. But look at some of their totals. I heard of one project where they moved 700,000 cyds in a month. As for these Dirt Farmers, ag tractor and pan combos. When you compare them with the cat pan combo its not about price. Yes, the dozers are more expensive. But the dozers work in conditions that nothing else will. You say you can get tractors with tracks. You sure can, and there no better than tractors with wheels. Its about weight distribution, and traction. These tractors with tracks will sit just as much as the ones with wheels. Wear on the U/C. Yeah, but not as bad as you think. Your not going forward to reverse all day. Its a constant load all day. You also dont have the weight of a blade sitting on the front of your u/c so that also helps to an extent.
I have pictures of there Branson Airport Project and Rt. 5 in Missouri. Would anyone like to post these for me if I e-mailed them to you?
I just got a new issue of Construction Equipment and their projects in Mo. was a feature story in this issue.Several nice pictures there also. I was at their shop this fall.I bought some idlers for my dozer from them through Ziegler Cat.They had replaced there undercarriage with the system one tracks.:usa
Here are the pics that Fenson wanted to post. Nice pics!:thumbsup
The rest of them.
Thanks for putting these up so quick. I have more avalible upon request.
No problem, if you want to post a few more send them.
James Brokman...sorry I missed your question so many months ago. Yes, that is indeed Miss Pam in the D11 pic I took, still in the trade and one hell of a telehandler operator. She also passed her crane certification tests, and hopes to expand her skills. Currently working at an ethanol plant expansion project in Columbus. Thanks for asking! alan627b
Anybody actually ran one of these high track units? Gonna start in a month, wanted some tips.
Do some leg exercises before climbing "to the top"!!
i'm kinda surprised to see McAninch working in Omaha, I imagined that Kiewit pretty much owned that town when it came to big projects? :beatsme
Another thing I wanted to add regarding these pull type scrapers is the support equipment needed when using them. According to Dwayne they cut support equipment by as much as 50%. When I was in Missouri watching them they had all those pull pans filling down in that valley and the only things I saw some from the fill was a D6R LGP and an 825. That's when everyone parked for lunch, I'm not saying there wasn't anything else down there. Just a thought.
McAninch Corp Peter K does very little dirt in Omaha. McAninch will venture out anyplace if it's the kinda job that fits him. He also did a job in Sioux City, Iowa this past summer. Had a couple of D11's there I guess. Did not see the job but heard about it. Came in and blew a bunch of dirt in a hurry and left. That's the Mac way from what I see of them. That Omaha job also made a bunch of heads spin when he did that big commercial job there. Was impressive to watch. Did a little production study on them and it would surprise you what they were hauling. It was really worth a look.
very interesting, thanks for the info :thumbsup
Running a hi-sprocket rig. Hi, Dirthog27. Not a WHOLE lot different from the oval track machines. Still not a LOT of vision forward over the radiator but better than the D9G's and H's. Better visibility around the machine, although not of the back end of your tracks. Ripper visibility is usually reasonable. Blade visibility varies from model to model but is usually better than the D9G's and H's. Having said that, I never had any trouble with knowing where my blade was with the earlier machines. I have yet to run a hi-sprocket machine with 'clutch-and-brake' steering as smooth as the D8H or D9G but the bigger ones with the cantilevered rear idler do ride smoother. The extra height will likely have you wondering for a while but I understand they still pass the US military's rollover spec. of 45 degrees so they can't be all that top heavy. Diff steer is nice but limited for sharp turns unless you are in ideal conditions and diff steer is not quite like C&B steering for picking up scrapers quickly. I have also been told by people who've been there-done that, that they bog easier because of the smaller diameters of the idlers. I can't say I've ever had one in enough mud to find out. What I can tell you is that I seriously doubt that a hi-sprocket dozer would go up the same 8-foot vertical wall that I took a bobtail D9G up at Mount Goldsworthy Iron mine in 1968. Some of them, notably the D10R, don't put their grunt on the ground real flash. Once that blade is anywhere near full, you have to stop cutting and carry that load. Many of the older oval track machines would just keep on cutting and piling that dirt up over the blade. All the D9L's and all the D11's that I have been on would do this too. Some 'experts' will try to tell you that you can't trim with the bigger machines. May I suggest that you make up your own mind about that by trying for yourself. Personally, I have yet to find a dozer that I couldn't do a reasonable job of trimming with, given an hour or two to get used to it. Hope this helps.
I don't think McAninch was in Sioux City this last summer? There hasn't been many big projects around here in the past year. Correct me if im wrong tho There is a proposed oil refinery in SE South Dakota, about 20 Minutes from Sioux City. I'm sure McAninch will be one of the top candidates for that, it will be spread over 4,000 acres. Suppose to be the 2nd largest construction project in the US ever, next to the Big Dig in Boston.
McAninich Iowa Cat a salesman told me about it and said they were over in the N.E. or N.W. side of the City. Said he watched them and it also had 1 or 2 of the locals that he calls on pretty nervious. Will ask him where about for sure and when last year. Also it didn't take him long. Will check with him again.
Yeah let me know what you hear, i would of loved to watched them why they were here. Just cant figure out where they would of been working:beatsme
Kiewit has occasionaly brought in their own equipment, to "show everbody how to really move dirt" around here a few times, moving dirt "the Kiewit way" , with mixed results...they did a subdivision about 8 years ago, with a D11 pushcat and 631E's..moved a lot of dirt in a hurry, but were only using an old 815A and one of those square towed impact compactors for compaction. Oops. Didn't work very well.... When the sewer contractors went in and dug, the trenches collapsed, due to poor compaction...I think that D11 could push a 631 full to overflowing in it's own length. But putting in 2 foot lifts, and beating it with that towed roller, just doesn't get it done. I was told that these scrapers and dozer were going to be sent west, but were idle for some time, so Big K bid the job low, to keep them busy, or train a crew, or something.... Afterwards, one of our competitors, had to come in and overexcavate several areas, and recompact the soil in thinner lifts. I'll bet that cost somebody some money.... They have a cut boss, walk (run) every load in the cut, and another guy pointing every load in the fill.....it looks wierd, to see a scraper with dirt pouring over the sides, and a guy running alongside, with his fingers pointing down, signaling to cut deeper! They used the same machines on a section of interstate before that, and did the hack and hog method there too, until they got far down enough to hit bad mud....then they pulled their scrapers out, and subbed ours to finish it. On yet another occasion, they brought in 651E's to strip a quarry in Louisville, Nebraska, about 20 miles south of me, one winter. I watched them one afternoon, they had a D9 ripping frost, and a D10 and a D11 tag teaming the scrapers, they could stuff them so full they were carrying cubes in the bowls, in about 15 seconds. Pull in front and jam the bowl down as far as it would reach, and hang on! The fun part to watch was when the scrapers got to the waste area, they would have to stop and bang the pans on the ground, to dislodge the dirt that was jammed in there. They had a D9 working the fill, usually pushing hung up scrapers off their own loads. Didn't seem like a really smart way to do things to me. Might work in California soil, but not in the dirt we have around here! Building their haul roads out of frost worked okay til a warm day, when they thawed out, you can guess the results. I was told that if production dropped below a specified level, they would just shut everything down and go home. In the winter around here, sometimes you just have to fight if you want to get the jobs done on time. I wonder how their operators made any money? They wound up sending the 651's away, and bringing in 637E;s to finish the job. Kiewit usually subs out their dirt work on projects in this area. Odd, since it's their home town! alan627b
There's only one way to make an engineered fill in a professional manner and that's with a balanced operation, with enough water and compaction equipment to keep up with the amount of scrapers running. Just slinging dirt as described above is fine on a non compacted fill. We very seldom fail a compaction test because we run a balanced job.
case and deere are okay in good topsoil but cat-n-pans walk all over em in clay.
very fascinating, thanks Alan.
Sorry I don't have pics but I have seen a demo DVD from Lashland USA. It shows centre steer (articulating) tractors, some on "rubber tracks" pulling mulitple pans. Not as big as a 651 towed by a D10/D11 but undoubtedly much faster and with reduced ground pressure in unstable ground conditions. Fuel consumption is another thing to consider these days. Any comments on "Peak Oil"..........C ya........Ray
very informative alan627b, i have worked with guys who worked for kiewit and heard many stories about how awesome they did this or that,i always figured that with a company that big quality would always be an issue.
I only worked for Kiewit once, they rented 4 of our D350 trucks and operators for an excavation at the coal power plant in Lake Manawa, IA. That wasn't a bad experience, but I've heard that usually when you work for them, you are just a number, not a man.... I don't think the soils around this part of the country lend themselves to the type of "big dirt" style of operation PKS prefers....ya' just can't bomb it in that fast! alan627b
That's exactly how I felt when I worked for Kiewit. Thanks for reminding me why I left in a hurry. Don't get me wrong, there are some nice things about working there, I kinda miss Kiewit and I would return in a heartbeat under the right conditions... Mainly the right $$$.
I was a sub on a PKS job that was interesting. I'll never forget that super we called him a and a few other guys there a"2 trinket dinket". They all had at least 2 things that said PKS on them at all times like shirts, jackets, belt buckles, and knifes... ETC. Now that isn't so odd to me since I've work for big outfit that give a lot of stuff out like that all the time, but at the time to us small town hicks that was a sight to see.
I have worked for mcaninch for a year and a half now I am working on the Highway 5 realignment project. they generally run the 11's no farther then 1200 feet the 10's 1100 and so on cat and pans must be loaded and on the way in less than 35 seconds i have run the 11's pulling the 51 pan the 10t and the 10 r pulling 41 pans and a 9l pulling a 31 pan and there is no problem loading in the 35 seconds provided you are ripped properly. the 31 pans are equipped with GPS and are extremly nice to use they don't equip the bigger pans with the GPS. The 41 pans are extremly unstable you can turn them over very easily if you are not careful 51 pans are extremly stable. On this particular job if you were using rubber tired scrapers you would have eaten millions of dollars in tires due to the sharp rock. Mcaninch makes there own pans they have a patent on them the 9L and the 10 R have an expansion tank for the hydraulics in the rear and top of the cab otherwise oil will shoot out of the tank. I personally have never worked for a better company they have late model equipment and they keep it maintaned air conditioners etc. Yes they expect production but it is nothing that is totally unacheivable they were moving 100,000 yards in 24 hours at the Branson airport. Someone mentioned the 777's those were purchased for this job and were sold as they were too big and would not run without solid haul roads which are impossible in the winter/Spring in MO. The 5110's are an awesome sight I beleive they own 5 of them now one is at Camdenton and ther are three or four at Branson I would be happy to answer any questions
I can't see the pics for some reason
Welcome to the HEF forum I hope you find it as informative and helpfull as I have. I can't wait to hear more on the operations of the Big Mac
101 operator: "I would be happy to answer any questions" Does McAninch really have an "Immediate Opening - Grading Foreman/National Division" as they have posted on their website? I can't get a straight answer from any of the secretaries who I've talked to.
Put it this way, your a lucky guy working for those people. I never had more fun on a construction site than watchin those 2 projects. I hope you can continue to inform us regarding Mighty Mac!
Dwayne McAnich is a class act. I heard him interviewed on the radio and he kept going on about how he didn't make the company what it is, his employees did. Company pride is getting to be a rare thing.
Well I can't speak with any authority on that one I think if you have a good enough application and resume they would interview you but keep in mind they have bid work in as many as 25 states or so I have heard around the lunch hour
Go to youtube and find user dirtslingindeer he has made some videos but the company made him take them down I don't know if he can do anything with them or not
Welcome to HEF 101. :drinkup:usaI've been very impressed with all of read about Mac. What are you running currently? That 1200 feet one way?
how come yall are wearing out those 11's for why not use scrapers????????????????
That tells me you havent read the thread from the start Try it its very informative. I assume somebody requested certain pictures to be removed, pity. :drinkup
test
On Using Scrapers. Hi, $Maker. In case you hadn't noticed, those strange box-like thingies on wheels behind the D11's ARE scrapers. They just happen to be drawn or towed scrapers, which require a separate tractor to pull them and control them, instead of having the prime mover/tractor integral with/attached to/part of the scraper. They also don't rush about at high speed, a fact which may have coloured your perception of their efficiency and their ability to move dirt. The company which owns these scrapers has been around for a while now and is one of the larger, better known and more respected companies in their particular field. I'm told they have a large and very well-equipped workshop and are one of the very few companies who are entrusted to do Cat scheduled servicing themselves, on their own machines. Could it be that they are doing something, or maybe even several somethings, right? I need another nanna nap. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
thanks for the info but im a lil conserned when people confuse a scraper with a pan. this tells me some things up front. there are many ways to move dirt this is a fact, but another fact is effeciency and profeicency are too different things. the method this company is using im gonna say is profecient. just judging by the facts you have stated and im not knocking anyone who finds their own nitch and can make it work. im just voicing my opinion and the concensis of 5 generations of equipment operation. " a self propelled scraper is the most effencient way of moving dirt if conditions so exist to operate them" kudos to this company for their accomplishments but in my opinion theres a lot of good crawlers being wasted.......
Yer entitled. Hi, $Maker. I'd be interested to hear what it tells you up front when someone confuses a 'scraper' with a 'pan'. Please feel free to share. I've got a pretty thick skin. Let's not get into semantics here. Local names regardless, a SCRAPER is a scraper, whether it has a 2-wheeled integral prime mover, a 4-wheeled integral prime mover, or a separate tractor up front pulling a drawn scraper in one form or another, or even multiples thereof. They were scrapers back when R. G. LeTourneau was developing them and they are scrapers now - 'cos they take a scraping from the earth and collect it in a bowl for transport to some other place, where they dump it one way or another. Or are you going to tell us all that R. G. didn't know what he was talking about and should have called all his DRAWN scrapers 'pans'? You can think what you like about the way McAninch do their work and yer entitled to think it. I suspect that you might find their annual financial report interesting reading - if you can get hold of a copy. And, as I mentioned earlier, they have been around for a while now. How's YOUR earthmoving business going? Just my 0.02.
$maker Not to get a battle started, as we are here to learn, and see how things are done different in other parts of the world due to the local conditions that need to be overcame. I think the key here is what you said quote" a self propelled scraper is the most effencient way of moving dirt if conditions so exist to operate them" I think Mccainich has got to where they are by chosing jobs that their equipment excells at. Such as one of the posts where they came in, completed the job, and left all while a competitor with a job right next to them waited for the ground to dry enough to run his iron. Now, I won't argue against a self propelled scraper, ans I have 18 of them, but there are many places I have found myself wishing for a set up like theirs, at least to supplement what we already have and work in bad ground conditions.
And if those conditions dont exist :beatsme guess you have to find another way of doing it Thats probably why they are wearing out those tractors you seem so concerned about, I bet you've got a great big pile of muck that you'd just love to attack with one of them tractors with a blade on it. Can I come play too
Around here the words "scraper" and "pan" mean the same thing. Other parts of the country they look at you funny when you use the word "pan". People from different places have different names for machines. The important words in your post are "if conditions so exist to operate them." I have observed tractor drawn pans pulled with D8s and they worked in places like mud, wet garbage dumps, and steep slopes that I wouldn't try a self propelled scraper.
Very true, I'm sure a couple of UK users will correct me but to my knowledge they are a tractor & box over here. Never come across a "pan" except for cooking things in, until I started playing with this infernet thingy
Box-Pan As AtlasRob has already said in the U.K. the turm is Tractor+ Box or Tractor+Scraper Box, the Ideal distance to run max. on yardage (measured work) and make a few £££ is about 800ft, that is on the long run, longer distance work that need the traction effort of a tractor pulled Scraper would be on a Day work rate, the longest hauls I have done have been nearly 3 loads an Hour with a D8K hooked up to a 463 Box, the day seemed like a Month. tctractors
G,day....it's all horses for courses. The last time that I operated a dozer/scraper combo was preparing the site for the construction of the Thomson River Dam. The country there is so steep that you could not walk a dozer straight up the hills by themselves less alone with a tincan in tow. We had a series of switchbacks setup leading us to the top of the cut. At the switchback you would turn the dozer then drag the scraper along the side of the hill untill it came up onto the haulroad. We were building roads for the the rubber tyred equipment to come and move some serious fill ( dam wall was 500 feet high when finished ). As for time of haul, on one cut and fill you were lucky if you could get 3 loads an hour. This was with D6 and double PCU cable operated scrapers and hydraulic bull blade. The first machine that I ever operated was an old dry clutch D7 with scraper in tow ( about 16 at time ) and got tossed off the track a few of times when crank starting pilot motor ( I was a slow learner ) .
I might as well enter this discussion We call the combo a cat & can here, as far as I'm concerned it is one of the most versitile machines on the planet. This is the first year since 1987 I have not owned one and only because I was offered a trade that was to good to pass up. Operators here on the west coast just snicker at it but the truth is it can do what otherwise would require articulated trucks, a big hoe to load and another machine or two in the fill. Not to mention we could unhook the scraper and hook to the dozer, pull a sheepsfoot, disc or whatever else might need pulling. Any time you can multi task a machine it's $$ in the bank. I'll bet it won't be long until we miss it, here's a farewell pic.
Scraper?pan If you have five generations of "equipment operations" you would know a scraper, pan and box are all the same thing. They are just called different things in different parts of the world. Also I would like to see you run a scraper in the conditions they run a Dozer pulling a scraper. They will be done with the job and paid and you will be still trying to get your first self propelled scraper unstuck. I have work with and seen them work on many jobs and they will make a self propelled scraper look out dated. In your "five generations of equipment operation" have you ever ran a Dozer/scraper? or operated in central Iowa? or a lagoon? Dozers/scrapers are efficient in these and many other operations. I have owned and operated self propelled scrapers and Dozer/tractor scrapers and yes there is a place for a self propelled scraper but I run Dozer/tractor scrapers and they are very efficient and proficient.
RKO is right on, in Nebraska and even more so in Iowa, this can be the only tool for the job when we have wet years. Most of Iowa was underwater a good part of last year! Big Mac knows their stuff, they may not travel fast but they are always on the move. A day when it rains may stop an entire rubber tired fleet, but it doesn't stop them very often. I still wonder how they make it pay with undercarriage costing what it does. I have heard from the grapevine that they took a beating on those jobs in Missouri. You kick a dirt clod and run into rock down there! I watched a couple of jobs they did here in Omaha, A D9 with a 631 pan was making better time than a 627 would have, due to the 25% moisture content on this job. Our 627's would have been wide open in 2nd for 5 minutes in this muck, those 9's just strode right over it. And didn't tear the job up as bad to boot. Works for them anyway! Roly D8K has a whole fleet of D8K's and converted 463's in England, and it works for him for the same reasons. Register and check them out here... http://www.classicmachinery.net/forum/ Several 100 pics found there, and more all the time. Link to the post, but the pics won't show if you aren't logged in. http://www.classicmachinery.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=552 alan627b It works for them.
Down here at the bottom of the world, there called tractors and scoops, still the same horse. And definetly still has a place. One man can load carry dump spread and grade all with the one machine.A really good operator can even cut batters with the draft arms. Yes old technology but if it works why change it. The problem with the dump truck and digger combo is that each depends on the other, and when one stops the whole operation can stop. The setup works for me and I can just unhook it pin the rippers or winch back on the dozer and away it goes on another job. Just MHO and it makes $ for me Cheers Merv :drinkup
Great pics Merv thanks for putting them up, I dont think of a D6 with a box, looks a big box too. :cool2
$maker I can tell you are not informed about scrapers, as the older self propelled Cat scrapers were four wheel tractors with pull scrapers behind. Just like today. You could remove the scraper and pull a; Disc, sheep foot, dump wagon, just to name a few. People have just refined this and using Steel/rubber track tractors instead of the old DW wheel tractors. I worked with McAninch on a shopping mall job, they were to do the ruff grading and another company was to do the finish grading. McAninch ended up doing the whole job because the other company could not do the finish work with "Your self propelled 615 and 627 scrapers". Dirt in many parts of the country will not support the weight or give traction to wheeled machines. I learned many things over the years of doing this type of work all over the US, is look at how other people are doing things and learn from it. I not saying it's wrong to change, but take what is working and improve on it. My Grand Mother always said "you can't learn some thing new when you are talking, because you are hearing what you already know"
:cool2 :notworthy
Yes RKO you hit the nail on the head, I got told 30yrs ago "Boy you havn,t got enough time in your life to make all the mistakes yourself, try and learn from other peoples mistakes, theres always a better way of doing things; and a dumber; try and sort them out yourself" Atlas Rob, the scoop made it all the way here from your backyard its a Birtley 70 that was converted to hydraulic, and with the sideboards holds 14yds. takes me about a minute to load usually in heavy clay, downhill on that job 30 seconds. A D7G probably would be better, but sometimes you just gotta do it with what you got. Some more pics. Merv:drinkup
D6 & Box D6 Merv,we managed those 14 yarders behind D6Cs for a number of years one was a Cat 70 the other a Birtley 70 the birtley was a bit heavier than the Cat,we did,nt convert to hydraulics until we moved on to D8s & 463s years later we still have the 46j and cat 70:drinkup
Fantastic pictures as always Roly :notworthy good to know you still visit us hope your not finding things too tight at the moment :drinkup
"$maker thanks for the info but im a lil concerned when people confuse a scraper with a pan" What is the difference? I thought pan was slang for scraper I have always referred to to "Bowl" as a pan, and or the whole unit at times
box bowl can pan digger scoop earthmover There has to be more. No matter what you call it, it's still the most efficient short haul earthmover ever, er, yet invented.
Your forgetting the most popular out here.... buggy. Whether its on tires, pulled behind tires or pulled behind a dozer.... it's a buggy!
Thanks for the great pics Roly, looks like heavey sticky clay in pics 3 and 4, and is a good load in it. Did it self load or did it get a push ? Is that scoop a early cat 70 ? As I see it doesn,t have the outer axle support like the Birtley 70 does. Take care mate, cheers from the bottom of the world Merv :drinkup
Hi Rob, hope your well,rain and snow stopped play at the momement but plenty to do when it lets us.:drinkup
cat 70 Hi Merv,glad you like the pictures they were took in the mid 70s,how stickey the dirt is in those pictures i think that load got a nudge from that other D6, the next pictures show the two 70s spreading dirt from a pond being dug out and loaded by a 22RB dragline,these are about the only machines that could get the job done and some ask is there still a place for these old machines:Banghead have a gooday mate:drinkup
Cat and pans are very cost effective on the short hauls. Do it here all the time and if I gave away the store and published what the cost per yard is nobody would believe me.
Would a 637 pan be to big to pull with a D9G? I have a 637 that I salvaged and am wondering about converting it to pull type. The goal of the project would be to have a cat-pan unit that could run if it is to wet for the 637C to run.
Pull a No. 70-9 to 11 yards- with a D7 here and an 80-18 to 20 yards- with a D8 here. When it gets the D7 and no. 70 works better because the D7 will float on top better than the D8 will. Better check how much weight per sq. ft. of track the D9G will be putting down. My D7 is lighter than the D8 is that way. No matter what always drop the blades here too when pulling pans to get rid of all of the weight.
463 A friend of mine in the uk pulled 637-631 conversions with his D9Gs but struggled with them on some jobs cause to heavy,so he went back to pulling 463,s
Thanks Roly, If it's not going to work good converting the 637 I suppose I'll pass on that idea.
I see that the scraper in your pictures has a hydraulic cylinder and arm for the lip ,but is using cable to lift and lower the lip.It is amazing how many different ways the old cable scraper are converted over. Also the old blue clay your loading looks fun to work with . I'm with you on the 637 scraper ,you would need a D10 size machine for pulling it around especialy in the softer conditons.Nice pictures.Thanks for sharing as usual:usa
Some McAninch pull scrapers near Oregon, MO
Let's try this again. McAnininch pull scrapers near Camdenton, MO.
More McAninch scrapers in Overland Park, KS.
Tired yet? McAninch scrapers near Oregon, MO
McAninch scrapers Great pictures, great machines, thanks for sharing,those D11,s and 651,s can rearly move the dirt:drinkup
No, not tired at all! THanks for sharing and keep them coming. We'll let you know if we get tired:notworthy:drinkup:usa
What size machines are the last Mcanich photos?
They appear to be D11R/651's.
Yep. 51,s and 11,s
What a bunch of beasts.
Nice pics. but It seems like that wouldnt be very cost effective, with the cost of maintaining the undercarriage on the tractors and all the other expences that come along with those machines. I dont know maybe im wrong.
McAnnich did not get as big as they are by being stupid or not making money. They know what they are doing. Like I have said on here before a Cat pulling a pan is a very cost effective way of moving dirt if the haul is short or if things get wet and stickey. Do it here all the time with a D7 and a D8. I smile all the way to the bank when they are running.
Yea true. I guess under the right circumstances anything can be efficient. But i do think they look pretty sweet.
GBdigger I have watched McAninch for years now wondering how they make their system work in SW Missouri. I do know they left a lot of money on the table on Hwy 13 in Stone County and Hwy. 65 in Taney County also bid the Springfield Airport cheep, haven't seen them in SW Missouri since...over lots of out of area contractors have left the area to never return. And by the way I don't consider Camdenton to be SW, Missouri. Best I remember they got their prices up on the Rte. 5 job and were only 2 or 3 percent low. My dad always use to say experience was an expenseive teacher.
Your Dad is right. Graduated from that school a few times myself. But lets face it. McAninch didn't get that big by being stupid and not making money some where along the line. We have seen the same here. Somebody from out of town comes in, makes a splash on a job or two and then we never see them again.
Hi $Maker, I fry deer meat and potatoes in my pan. If I am going to move dirt I use a scraper, selfpropelled or towed.
In some parts of the country "pan" is the common term for scraper. Around here we usually call them pans.
Greg said I agree I'm also one of the many who is impressed with MCAninch, however I thought it important to point out that they are human and make mistakes like the rest of us. Many post seem to imply they are invincible
Ya, Dozer Dave your term is correct self powered or towed. Around here as in all places we have our own little glitches to the language. Self powered is always "technically correct" a scraper. We have some who still insist on "turnapull" and I don't mean "Torunapull" as George LeTorneau meant it to be. Some use the generic "earth mover" which makes my blood boil. The term "pan" is reserved for pull type unit. Oh ya, with enough charcoal to put underneath a "pan" we could fry deer meat and potatoes in it to if stupid enough to do so.
to bad Big Mac has no more D-11's they sure were a site but it seems like Mac is bleeding pretty bad right now NO WORK
Pretty easy to sell 11,s so maybe just a temporary thing and maybe a planned move to upgrade to greener D11T,s. I will bet the 651 bowls the R,s were pulling are still in Mcaninchs stable
The terminology thing is kinda funny. For example, guys here are using the term dozer whereas in a lot of places a dozer is strictly a crawler with a dozer blade. Backhoes, excavators, trackhoes, crawler backhoes, all the same thing but different areas have different terminology. One thing I did learn is when in American cities be careful when you ask for a hoe! One thing for sure, McAnichs' operation sure impresses heck out of me! You don't have all that iron on hand without knowing exactly how to make it pay.
You are correct they still have the 51's in the yard . They sold the 11's at the end of 07 before the downsizing auction, I think you have a good point about the greener plan because most of the motored equip. sold was older and pre electronic . They had a very tough year laying off alot of mechanics and closing the weld and fab shop where they had 14 welders 1 of which is myself they have only brought 2 back with no signs of improving . But Jan. 1 is almost here so time will tell ,we will see if the young managment has the guts and brains to make it work since Dwayne has all but retired ....
That would have been a heck of an auction to be able to attend!
Iowawelder, So out of the equipment they have listed on their site, how much do they actually still own?
I'm pretty sure he said he was one of their welders, not their accountant! but he might have some idea I suppose. :beatsme
A more impressive site is watching Kolb Grading from STL. with their John Deere 9630's puliing 3-2112E Scrapers on 67Hwy.
I haven't looked at the web site for McAninch for a long time, so I thought I would check it out. They have a bunch of equipment listed that they don't have any more. It's too bad that they are becoming just a shell of what they used to be. They have lost a lot of good people and machines over just the last couple of years.
:woohoo :thumbsup HIYA WALT ! good to see your still kicking buddy. Them big tractors dragged you out of your shell 6 posts in 2 1/2 yrs you old devil. Just a fleeting visit or do you browse regular?
Haven't been on this board for a while, until alan627b sent me a link. I couldn't believe this thread was still going!
You never know what's cook'n in another man's pot........... but DAMN!........... those Mac's have got some kind of Kahunas.......... buying that high dollar D11R stock, and coupling it to cans. My mind is forever warped, having seen this. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea (investment) since they are bleeding today, but again, "You never knows what cooks in another man's pot" My Goodness!! What Kahunas!! Just Break'n all the Rules! I'm impressed with their boldness. That scraper venture is an impressive outlay. I guess I'm going to feel better about going to Vegas.
Good to see you Walt welder Dave here ........... They sold off about 25% of their iron lots of it was older less green iron ...
TD 25 Cat 463 in NZ. First time at posting pics, see if it works.
Yair...until we got 'Americanised' (in the nicest possible way of course) over on this side we used to call them "scoops".
TD25s and scoop Gidday RDG. Tanks for posting; where was that photo taken over here, and who,s gear is that. Alot of people over here certainly loved TD25s on scoops. Cheers Merv :drinkup
That pic was taken in Tauranga, The 25B & scoop was Renners and the 25C was dry hired from Fentons in Ngatea, we had it on hire for several months when there was heaps of kiwi fruit contouring on the go. We did end up with 4 x 25Bs and scoops at one stage.
Yeah and here in Manitoba we still use Cat's to pull scrapers. Most of the Red River Floodway around Winnipeg was done that way in the sixties and a pretty good portion when they made it bigger over the last couple of years. Though I've heard that Hugh Munro Construction who was like the king of Cat and Scraper is starting to go away from them as its getting hard to get parts for the old D8's and nobody knows how to setup the old cable units.
TD25s Hi RDG Thanks for the reply. Darcy Fenton really loved his IHs they were the biggest bulldozing contractor around here in the 70 and 80s. I think they finally sold up most of there gear about 2000. They had one of the very few TD25Es in NZ right up until the end along with 2 TD20Es and a stick shift TD25B on a big onions scoop. Cheers mate Merv :drinkup
rome scrapers anyone no of a rome 56h scraper for sale want to pull with a deere 750j dozer
Back in the early days G.A.Renner bought a new 25B and had a Vickers Onoins 19/26yd scoop behind it, they later sold it think to Taylor & Culley who had it for a while then Huntly Quarries then Renners bought it back while I was with them and it went back on a scoop. We did have a TD 30 at one stage, blade & rippers was ex Allen Mills or Waikato Earthmovers not sure which, Renners traded it in on a new 15c. Merv ; does McBreen Jenkins in Whangarei still have their D 8H s and scoops? at one stage I heard they had something like 23 on the go.
Hi RDG Yes you were correct; Mcbreen Jenkins did have about 23 D8Hs and scoops, the biggest colllection of tractor towed scoops in NZ. They were bought out by australian firm Transfield Services about 2 years ago and sold off almost all the D8s and string scoops. They still have 2 D8Ks and 2 or 3 late D8Hs with hydraulic kokudu scoops as far as I know. They had a big sale just before christmas and sold off 7 D8Hs and 5 463 scoops. A mate of mine bought 2 scoops for $2500 each; this is pacific pesos, about $1800 US. D8s went for about 20000 I think Is a guy in thames running there operation here called Tim Johnson who worked for Renners for a long time before changing to McBreens. Also did you know Grahame Hope, he was a mechanic for Renners, a IH expert, mate of mine married his daughter. Cheers Merv :drinkup
picture of my D6D and Birtley 70 [pom built cat 70] scoop, converted to hyd. With a tombstone of hard clay sticking out of it. Merv :drinkup
Nice little rig Merv, back in the cable days we'd get a slab like that fall back and smash the cable spool behind the ejector, had to build a steel top for the spool.
Sure do remember Tim Jhonsone and Graham Hope, Graham was our work shop superviser for many years, real IH man he was, think he has a Kiwi fruit orchard or two around Te Puke last I heard , have not seen either of them for many years now. Simon Barrett would be the bloke who married Grahams daughter I believe. Cheers RDG
Hi RDG. Small world an,t it. Me and Simon have been mates for many years. I was actually best man at their wedding. Cheers Mervyn Pepper.
About 5 years ago McAnich had 4 or 5 d11's and 5 d10's out building the highway 16 road project here in NC. It was a great year getting to see them work coming home everyday!! They were quite a site to see!!
They are hurting I hear? Started selling a few things. When they were in Branson thier Maintance on everything was 2 million a month.
It does seem that they are hurting. I've heard they are having two more sales this year, one at the Des Moines shop and one in Kansas. They are moving the corporate offices to the shop and have moved everything out of the weld shop and put it up for sale. They have drastically reduced the number of crews they are running also. None of it sounds good.
Yup pretty much what I heard for the President of T.J. Lambrecht. I know when I was working for Kolb they were bidding aganist us and were always at least 6 million above us. D10's and D11's in 3rd gear is not how you make money. Them 5110's are junky to reason why Cat quit making them and only produced 7.
They produced a few more than 7 bud and the 5110 was actually not to bad as far as 5000 series reputation went.
From what I read Caterpillar stopped producing the large mining excavators because the cost of development was so high and not worth competing head on with the likes of Hitachi, Komatsu, Liebherr etc. Instead they found development on smaller machines like Skid-Steers, mini-excavators, and other compact equipment more profitable. I dont know myself if the 5000 series was junk as machines of that size are virtually non-existent here in Manitoba. The biggest we've had around here are 385's and 800 size machines. I personally prefer the older technology 245's I ran a couple of 365's and 375's and still found a 245 in decent shape to be faster. Though the 365's and 375's had much nicer cabs. lol
I agree with you 245dlc. When Cat just made 4 excavators the 215, 225, 235 and 245 they where the best machines around. I know that there where some other models back then too, but the big 4 where good machines to run and maintain.
Thought they only produed 7 with the track hoe configuration not shovel? Either way McAninch had a hard time keeping them together. That and the maintenace with running D10's and D11's in 3rd gear.
Yeah running in to high a gear all the time can burn out a tranny pretty quickly. You almost need a Cat with a tranny built to run at higher speed for that kind of earthmoving. Around here we're starting to see D8's with scrapers being replaced with heavy tracked ag tractors pulling two smaller scrapers at least when they're stripping topsoil. And some of the newer scraper arrangements have almost as much capacity as the old D8's but they use multiple tires to spread the weight out. The front shovels that Cat produced back then were just based on 235 and 245 machines not really much conversion was done other than a different boom, stick, and bucket and maybe where the boom connected to the rest of the machine for mounting a different boom I saw a 245 shovel once in Calgary I think it was by the side of a road for sale presumably.
Only 1 shovel was ever built and only as a prototype, the prototype 5110 HEX actually had twin bucket and stick cylinders but went to single for production. It shared a lot of 5130 stuff, swing drives, control valves etc so was over engineered.
Ok well yeah guess I was wrong about that. Yes we have been using ag tractors for years now and pull anywhere from 1 to 3 17yard to 21 yard pans with them. They are so much cheaper to run over twin engine scrapers or Cat and Pans. Kolb Grading went as far as putting steel tracks on their on thier John Deere 9630 Ag tractors to compete with McAnich's Cat and pans.
Before the D10s & D11s McAninch's spread in the mid 1960s, even then they just loved the pull pans. A fine bunch of specimens by anyones standards Dwayne McAninch on the laft talks to the Cat undercarriage rep. All cable too - ahhh those were the days.... Anybody know the significance of the modification to the apron sheave tower on the center machine ? :beatsme Enjoy
cats & pans alan627b; great shots, they must be awesom to see working live i cant remember seeing anything like that round this area in forever. keep them comming if you can. thanks ts-24frank
These were taken on job I was on in Hallum, Nebraska, last spring. D8R and an unknown pan, I believe it was converted from a Cat 621. No manufacturer markings on it. I don't see too may Cat and can combinations around here, and Big Mac hasn't been in my area lately. Alan
That's not big mack thats Kissick from KC, MO I know Jim well great people. Tractor and Pan are from Evans Equipment, I also know Tom and his boy's well, not sure of the spelling but the pan is manafactured by Kukudo :beatsme or something like that. Greg in KC
Alan, I don't think that scraper is a Kokudo 15SBW, I'm more inclined to say that it's one of the Cat 621 conversions done by Noble. I've pulled a few Kokudo's in my time and none looked like that one
Well Evans had several of these for quite some time before they sold all of them they are a 23SP Greg in KC
Looks for all the world like a 621 bowl to me...(the one in the first pics that is).
Greg in KC...I know that wasn't big Mac, I was working for Kissick in Hallum. They only used that scraper one time in the 8 weeks I was there, worked it after a big rain when all the cuts were mud. As to the Kissick experience, I guess I have a different slant on that. I worked for them for 8 weeks, came in one Monday to be told I was being let go, no reason given. It had rained very hard the night before, and I wasn't going to drive 92 miles 1 way to find out IF we could work, I called in as I was told to do, as close to start up time as I could, to get someone to answer the phone. Arrived about an hour after normal start up to be told I was being let go. They could have told me on the phone and saved me a 1/2 a tank of gas, when gas was $3+ per gallon, and mailed the damn check. Kenny, my immediate foreman (last name unknown, and the sooner forgotten completely the better) , had a little brown noser buddy who spent his time sticking his nose in everyone's business instead of running the scraper as was his job. One of our other Local's guys (there were 3 of us there, the rest were Kissick's guys), who is a way better operator than me, got run off in a similar fashion. Then the brown noser wound up fired too. HA! Complete BS. I can handle being let go, if there is a good reason, but I never got one. No write ups, or reprimands, as was their stated policy. I think the situation was that they had a lot of "their" guys sitting around KC with nothing to do at the time, and probably didn't like having to hire "our" guys for that job. Maybe they are good to work for, maybe not, but I won't work for them again. Hope that won't ruffle your feathers. Alan
Allen, I never worked for them I only know the owner and he is good people. Sounds like they have a dip **** super, first he should get up in time to call crew off if it has rained. On the other hand you should never assume that the job is rained out just because it's raining at your house. I've seen it rain 2 inches in one spot and none a 1/4 mile away. I fire people that can't showup on time too, you have to understand that we depend on people and if they don't showup they are costing the company money. Having said that I can't stand super's that keep their drinking buddies around, I don't care who you are if you can't do the work and showup on time your gone Greg in KC
I usually show up even after a rain, radar doesn't show everything......but when the job is 92 miles away, gas was $3+ at the time, and add to that the fact that if we were rained out we didn't get a dime for showing up...I did what I was told to do, and that was call as soon as you could get somebody to answer the phone. The whole experience left a bad taste in my mouth, there may be other reasons for me being let go, but I was never told what they were. I can't improve unless I know what I'm doing wrong. It's water under the bridge now.... Back to regularly scheduled programming. Alan
:thumbsup I know the company I work for when we move into other locals and we have to hire their guys we go threw them pretty quick, then end up sending our guys to the job. I get the unions but how do you expect a company to survive in these times when you have to call up random guys out of their union halls that have no idea what they are doing. Sometimes we would go through 2 guys a day.
Kman, They had me on an 815...I know how to run that . I was on an off road truck, no problems there. I was on a dozer after that . I can still learn a lot more on a dozer, but I'm no greenhorn and I wasn't doing finish grading. Some of the equipment was a lot newer than what I was used to, and it took some getting used to what they were capable of. But.... I had no written reprimands, and I had been there 8 weeks at the time I was let go, so it's not like I got canned on the first day or something...and that aside, nobody would know everything about a job on their first day no matter how long they had been running equipment. I've been running equipment for 18 years or so...BTW. Oddly enough, the brown noser was running a 627, which I've spent more time on than anything else in the last 18 years (which I had told them) , but I didn't get to run that. And I could have given brown nose aces and spades on one, from what I could see of his operating skills. As could our other union operator on site. If nothing else, I wasn't stopping every 20 minutes to yak, or stopped talking on my cell phone like he was. The only thing I can think of was a slight difference of opinion I had with brown nose on how much speed to use while on a disc tractor. He wanted me to go a lot faster than I thought was wise, as it doesn't make sense to me to disc in such a high gear that the tractor and disc are bouncing off the ground, tearing things up! I'm sure he ran and told his buddy the foreman..... I found out months later, that I had been accused of breaking the drawbar on it...BS! Not on my watch.... I just think it's chickensh*t to get canned with no explanation. I still think they were looking to get rid of "foreign" operators, which their agreement with our local forced them to take, when they had their own guys sitting home. Water under the bridge. Chalk it up to experience. Alan
I do know what you mean about clueless operators too, or guys who misrepresented their skills. Our hall sent guys out to our jobs to run equipment who couldn't hit the ground with it. I'd dealt with guys who claimed they had run scrapers for years. In what? A rock quarry? All they were good for was hack and dumping, no finesse. Probably a lot of that going on nowadays. Alan
No I wasnt saying that they had an excuse to fire you just saying from personal experience of what some company's will do. We would go through guy after guy just to say to the Union hall look at all the guys we are firing let us bring ours. Some times it works sometimes it doesnt. I will say it's kinda dumb the union does that. we are all part of the International. As long as your union it shouldnt matter IMO. Did a job out in Indiana we had over 20 machines there and they only let us have 2. One guy on the night shift and one on the day shift. My brother was on the night shift as the active foreman but he was still in a tractor. He was pretty much out there to babysit all the guys from their union.
Also that's good I see you said you ran 627's. I've only been doing this 8 years but those 7 were 627's. Me and my brother ran together with the trimble system. Seems like twin engine scrapers are going by the waste side but some of the best operators come from them. Right now I'm on a 14M blade and my brother is on a 6T.
I don't think you'll ever see the complete demise of scrapers, and twins especially, at least not in areas of the country where there is mud, or steep grades. They are stil the most efficient machine for short haul earthmoving, I believe there will always be a niche for them. And if not, I hope I'm in the ground before that happens. Say 40 years from now.... Alan
Well Allen having the hands call when it rains is stupid, the super needs to get his ass up early and call the crew off (that is how I operate) he gets paid to. Plus I would bet a hundred bucks the brown noser and super are drinking buddies. I would also bet that upper management has no idea. I know nobody thinks it is a good idea to inform upper management but I dissagree. Notice I said inform (not complain) the proper way to do this is to send a letter, it can't hurt , you never get if you never ask. :IMO Greg in KC
The brown noser and the dirtforeman were buddies, if the dirt foreman stopped quickly BN would have had to breathe through the foreman's fly! (You get what I mean?) One of our guys was running a dozer doing finish work there, and the only time I ever saw him get off of it was to check grade or talk to the boss, but BN tried to get him canned too. This guy was way better on a dozer than I am, I thought he was very good, he lasted about a month after I got the axe. In the end, Brown Nose got fired too, so I guess he got his! Being buddies with the dirt boss didn't save him from the big boss in the end. He he.
Isn't this whole thing getting of the subject a bit?
Well, this forum is about the construction trade, and nobody has posted anything else on this subject for a while...I don't think a little OTJ discussion is going to throw the world out of orbit. Hey, it's not like somebody was talking politics......:Banghead Sorry if we ruffled your feathers. It should be done now. Alan
Alan627b, No feathers ruffled. Just making a point. Or, maybe it is because I am about half way through an 18,000 cubic yard job bangin' in the rock. Been using a D7G to push my D8h's on this one cause the going is tough this time. All in all, things going pretty good though.
Everything's cool, Greg. Take a few pics of what you are up to, it's always cool to see Cats and cans. I haven't operated anything since mid December, and I'm going stir crazy. Not much dirt moving around here. It's always nice to see what somebody else is up to! Are you pulling scrapers, or just doing a lot of ripping and using the D7 for double ripping? Put me in the picture, I don't get around rock very often. You have to dig down a ways to find it around here. Alan
I just noticed on Catauctions.com the McAninich is having an auction. Is this a closeout? http://www.catauctions.com/default.cfm?pid=1.3.31
I just got back from working on a 953B for a guy down by lake of the Ozarks. McAnnich had been in talks with him to buy some property that was right at the new interchange that they were putting in. He said the owner was a very nice guy and told him he had went in partners with two other guys in a huge development project (big, big money). Both of his partners had just went bankrupt and he said that he didn't think he would be able to make it since he was essentially left "holding the bag". However he wasn't sure that it would take him out but that was last year so I guess it combined with the current economic climate finally put them down. I hate to see this happen with anyone that has employees that they have to let go no matter how big of jerks the owners are and it sounds like the owner was not a jerk in this case. Very sad when you think of all the people these companies going out of business effects.
really sucks to see them go, less competition I guess for our company but they were a very good company to their employees. Goes to show even some of the biggest companies can fail. Also heard they took a good size loss on that Branson airport project.
That southern Missouri rock has bit many of the contractors that have tried to work in it. Just about every company that has tried to work down there over the last 10-15 years has lost.
I just looked at the list.. I'm gonna say unlikely. Yes I'm sure the big Mac got hurt in the poor economy, but who hasn't. This looks more like a thinning of the fleet of older or un-needed iron. Not to mention, with as closely as Cat works with McAninch and vise versa, they could just as well be hosting the auction.:beatsme Yeah, there is 301 items on the list, but that includes jumping jacks and lasers. As large as they are I can't see a few bad years breaking their back, but IA is a long ways from PA so I'm just taking an educated guess.
alan627b D8s pulling Cat Pans. D7 is pushing. No ripper used. The rock for the most part is soft enough that the pans can peel it up in the 4 to 6 inch layers. All the material in the cut is from a borrow pit so no critical grades to worry about. Just close it, cover and seed it when done. Either machine makes for a rough ride in the cut. Know you been there after ten hours a day on this one but nobody complaining since had almost nothing all of 2009. I feel so so sorry for you not being able to find rock where you are at. (hee hee) Always find it around here in 12 to 18 inches max, sometimes less.
I have a real good source about the MacAninich company. Last year they had 30 water+sewer crews and this year they have 2. They have NO big dirt jobs unless they got some recently. They shut down their welding shop, and shut down a good part of their regular shop. They just flied for protection form bankruptcy. Not good they were at one time one of the best dirt/grading contractors in the country.
Walt 66A gets on here every once in a while and he echoed EGS's comments about Big Mac last time he was here. Things are really slow in this region of the country, last out, last back in , as they say. I've never been to Wisconsin, But I used to live in Blue Springs, Missouri, you kick a dirt clod down there and you hit rocks. greg, my smypathies on the rock and the rough ride! Here in Nebraska, you kick a clod and step in mud, at least in wet cycles. It's adventure on another level....must be rough to have those California jobs, 3 million yards of sugar dirt! I'm sure they have their horror stories out there too, what with CARB and all.... By the time you add up winter, rain days and so forth, I think we cram our work season into about 8 months out of the year. Alan
Yeah that Missouri rock bit them hard! 2 million dollars a month in maintenance on machines it's hard to make a profit. Last I heard they said screw rock and were going back to dirt. Running a dozer over solid rock in 3rd gear ointhead what was McAninch thinking? I have looked at some of their bids they did in Missouri for state jobs and holy cow their prices went up. They bid 45million dollars on a job that went for 34.
I remember McAninch had a big auction a year or two ago, IMO this very possibly could be a closeout. A very sad day if they go under.
the D11,s have been sold but there,s no mention of all the D9,s & D10,s with pull scrapers,and there were quite a few of them:beatsme
The rumor mill here is Des Moines is in full force about Mac. I am now hearing that after the sale they are starting up a new NON Union company. I sure hope that is wrong as it will really hurt/kill our local. Although I did hear today they got a few more decent jobs around here so maybe it is all bull. I should try and get a picture of their yard with all the equipment sitting in it for the sale. Pretty impressive.
Tell you the truth with these slow economy seems like some of the unions don't care about anyone. They are still up there getting their paycheck off of us. If you see a guy is on the out of work list and can't work and can barely afford food but still want him to pay union dues. Then these supposbly trained operators they have for 4 years send them out to the job and they don't know where to put the key.
I,ll bet none of the 651 bowls have been sold as they would owe them $0, perhaps a good time to clean house, regroup and get into newer tier equipment to be ready for the next periods jobs with cleaner, greener equipment, i would think that a quality outfit like they are with the heritage they have know how to steer the ship in good seas and bad. Must say it was a bit sad to see some of the older displayed machines from around there yard in the auction lot.
Finally came across the rest of the pics I took, I'll repost them here. Sorry if you've seen them before. Alan
More detail shots. The detail shots are of the D11 with the 651 pan. The 385B was digging out a creek channel. Very impressive piece of machinery.
Last 3 pics. This was a shopping center job located at Highway 370 and 72nd Street in Papillion, Nebraska. Nowadays the whole area is built up and this is a completed shopping center. Moisture on this job was as high as 25% in some areas. They used a mix of D8's and D9 with either 631 or 641 pans. The D11/651 pan was always down or not in use whenever I got the chance to drop by, unfortunately. Rollers were 825G's. Alan
I heard today that MacAninich filed for bankruptcy.
Well thats a bummer, maybe they will reorganize. Is this the first time? I thought someone said they had been bankrupt before.
They have been bankrupt at least a few times. It sounded like maybe they would be done for good, but I doubt that.
Bankruptsy is a buisness move anymore, probably be back under a different name. I always figured it meant the end but that doesn't seem to be the case. Thank God I can look my vendors square in the eye and shake their hand.
Flip, it would have been 9's, 10's, and 11's. They didn't have any D8's, for some reason. As far as bannkrupcy, I haven't heard that one. And as far as going non-union, I doubt it because Dwayne has always been a strong supporter of the union. On the other hand, since Doug took over, nothing would surprise me.
I heard from a very reputable source that they filled for bankrupcy, but i also heard this is not the first time they have, but i could be wrong! My old man was a superintendant down at the Branson airport, and he said theat they lost alot of money there just on the maintance. That rock is HARD on them tracks, he begged them to try out some 651's but they wouldnt, and when i went down there to that job 651's would of killed those D10's and 11's, i think they would of beat the trucks to. But its hard to try to get a company to try something different when they have done it one wayfor so long. And yeah you didnt see no 8's if it was mcaninch, they mainly use 7's 9's 10's and 11's with a few 6's
The took bankruptcy back in the 80's and reorganized, so this wouldn't be the first time.
McAninch Doing Well Just wanted to set the record straight! McAninch is still employing many Operating Engineers at the present time. They have not file bankruptcy in 2010! Good employer!!
Any more information? Some of their equipment has been sitting a long time, and haven't seen them bidding on any Missouri jobs lately. Hopefully they have been getting alot more work in Iowa.
see some working at this link YouTube - D11R & scraper
That video was taken awhile ago before they even did the Branson Airport. They no lomger have the 11's anymore.
But i bet the 651 bowls they do, just waiting for the right time to be married up to even lower running cost D11T,s sometime perhaps.
Yeah your probably right, I'm sure they still have the scrapers. I hope to see them come back but I don't think they'll go back with the D11's. They bought them for rock jobs and last I heard they were gonna start bidding dirt jobs. I see a few McAninch trucks running around every now and then but when I look at bid lettings I never see them on there anymore. Usually they were at least in the top 5 on most MoDot lettings.
they don't have much iron left do they? I know they had a few auctions with a couple hundred pieces each...
I think they had hundreds of pieces in those auctions run by Cat but the yellow iron content was not great, lots of pumps, lightplants, generators that sort of thing, sure a bunch of yellow iron but not as much as you might think.
Have you guys looked on you tube at the D57T??? 637 scraper pan mounted to A D10!!!! Pretty wild. I was under the impression that scrapers were used to move dirt QUICKLY... Doesnt this defeat the concept by running crawlers????
It's a 657B bowl and how quickly do you think regular 657,s would be working in the stuff the D57 is?
I have no idea about machines capabilities or performance from any practical experience so when I posted I was just asking a question. I am A carpenter by training and book reader/lover of heavy machinery for my hobby. I read the book moving the earth when I was a lil guy and I recall it saying essentially a guy will need rubber tires and push cats to make big cut and fill shows profitable. Where I live in the N Cal our ground seems pretty hard and the big guys all ran 37s and 31s. w push cats. My bad on the designation on the bowl... Thanks to all who put stuff on this site BTW. I loooove looking at the projects and equipment. Its very informative
To add on Gavin's thought, the "D57" is said to pull two more regular 57's through the cut while filling it's bowl, make a short run to some hard ground and dump for another buggy to haul away. 150+ yards at a pass is nothing to sneeze at. Slow doesn't always mean non producing.
I agree. I wish I had a nickel for every contractor I know of that was said to be bankrupt (may or may not have been) but is still in business.
I am always amazed at how clever guys are in this type of vocation. The fabrication skills and ideas are really cool. I have no idea how many D57s exist or where to get one but I am sure Cat is watching closely how it fares. I really wish we could find some places in Northern California that a big freeway dam or mega project was needed as I would love to take some vacation time and watch these types of machines do some earning.
How many D57T's you say?......1 thats it, thats all.
Anybody here anything about McAnich in Iowa this year 2011 ?
Not much, we bid agaisnt them on a few projects in the past and in the past year there name hasnt been on the bidders list
What does Mac have left for equipment? Went to 2 of his last the last year or so. What about his bonding? Heard some stories but you all know how that goes.
apparentley there still doing work! http://www.youtube.com/CaterpillarInc#p/c/576E431457570719/8/7S2Lvt4ig-8 but i dont know if that vid is old, some of the film was taken at branson airport