I know a lot of people have been asking about the Michigan/Clark 175 wheel loader series so i thought i would make a video of it showing you guys around the machine and stuff. YouTube - Michigan 175B Part 1 YouTube - Michigan 175B Part 2
Thanks Ruralexmech, that was a brilliant movie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It seems the 175B was really the machine to have. What horsepower does that engine put out?? Would love to see how you operate it The Detroit sound puts a smile on everyone's dial cheers Alex
Glad you liked the video FarmerAlex! =D. Yes it really is a good loader, I'm a pretty young guy and i wasn't around when the machine was made, but i still appreciate the quality with which things were built back then. Its horsepower is around 290 and hopefully I can get a video of it driving or me driving it pretty soon, ill be sure to let you know right away
ruralexmech that will be fab , i'm seriously considering getting one as well, have found a good one, theres pics on the other forum link. Sadly this one doesn't have a detroit in it. I also appreciate brute strength. Depending on how things go i might also post up some pics and vids of the new toy cheers Alex
Aww man, thats too bad it doesnt hav a detroit in it=( But still its a great machine, I can't wait to see the pics if you end up getting it! Keep me posted man, i hope all goes well =D Logan
I have found a detroit 8v71 for $1600 in running condition, so if the engine is no good i will replace with a detroit cheers might take the gf and go and look at it next weekend will definitely keep you posted Cheers Alex
Ahh, very glad to hear there may someday be a Detroit screaming in that Clark/Michigan 175B again. It's also very nice to hear that you can share your passion with someone else, especially someone as close as your girlfriend. Good luck to you! Logan
175 loader Down Under Howdy, have asked a few what points to look for on the loader, was wondering what your advice on what sort of bucket i should get??? I have a log fork set with it, which will be great, will use for log clearing and such. Whats the average cost for doing the full service on the loader, have done a faiir bit of research and found the hydraulic tank is about 80 Gal. Engine oil is about 30L and then filters plus other odds and ends. If i do get it i will definately post lots more pics vids and anything that might help others. Just another question while i think of it, at 15000 do you think that is a good price for a piece of equipment like this? Many thanks again Alex
I guess i would need more pictures (more pictures are always good ) and a ballpark estimate of how many hours it has (or at least the frame). Also, do you know if the engine is running? or are you going to replace it with that screamin' Detroit? =D In terms of buckets, i would need to know what kind of material you are handling (will it be aggregate, rock, dirt, etc.). Also, for a price on the full servicing i guess i wouldn't really know all that well because the work we do in our shop is for our own equipment. We're not really like a repair shop because we do all of the earthmoving work with our own equipment, and then we repair it ourselves as well. So i wouldn't really be able to give you a good estimate, although maybe someone else on the forums could help him with that? Hope all goes well, Logan
Ok the hours on it are 5883 hours, it says its a 1981 model. Now i think i will be mostly moving clay, maybe some rock, thinking that i probs will need a bucket with teeth. Cheers Now the servicing i'm going to do all myself, just wondering how much you budget in terms of oils and filters. here's some pictures cheers alex
That's a nice machine you've got there Alex! It seems to be in really good shape for its age and 5883 hours isn't too bad either for it. I don't really see any signs of misuse or damage to the machine, outside of the work mother nature has done on the paint this machine seems pretty mechanically solid by the looks of it. That's also one of the newer 175's in the B series, I think that the 175 was switched to the C series shortly after 1981. I might be off on the price of all the oils and filters but i think you could expect to pay somewhere around $300 for everything. I might be off, but its the best estimate i could make... i hope my young age doesn't make me way off. Yes though about getting a bucket with teeth. Clay is a hell of a lot more difficult to dig with a general-purpose bucket and not only that, but you said you might be moving around some rock as well so a toothed bucket will come in handy there too. You should be okay with an in-line toothed bucket (meaning the teeth are all equal distances out from the front of the bucket edge). Also, how about the engine? did you say you were going to use the one in there? or is it going to need to be replaced? If the one in there will work, could you tell me how it runs? Does the exhaust produce black smoke, or does it burn excessive oil? Check the levels and cleanliness of the transmission, hydraulic, and engine oil too. Those are also good signs of whether or not a machine is well taken care of. Finally, if at all possible, try doing some digging with it and make sure the steering and boom/crowd cylinders are tight. Then make sure that the engine doesn't get bogged down too easily when you are going into a pile or lifting the load up. Any other questions at all, feel free to ask =D Logan
Those machines came from the factory equipped with an ROPS and a cage of sorts wrapped around each side of the cab for safety so the operator would not fall off I guess.The cage would always get bent after some hours and looked like heck. One of my employers had two of them and I ran them for years.They were a good loader.Ours had 8V71s in them.I have never seen one with anything else in it but a Detroit.I did run a 275 for a while with a 335 Cummins in it.Ron G
Thanks again Logan, making the decision process much much easier. . Had another question again, I believe that the 175B has a three speed power shift, can this be used on the move, or does it require you to be stationary? The first task i have for this loader is to level a dam on a hilly block, ill post a diagram of it later tonight, i'd say that there would be at least two weeks work. There are about a dozen medium trees to remove, plus all the other excavation work to be done. Cheers alex
Hey couple things the tourge converters are differant for cummins and detroit that secound loader has way more than 5800 hours on it who knows when and how many times the hour meter was changed or not working Check the center pin huge issue with those if you keep them ajusted there great but nobody ever did.
Gday all, sorry haven't replied, now i rang up the bloke, it is at a metal recycling yard, apprently everything on it works well, he hasn't used it since he has had it. Said it was too big for him, now hes selling as just wants to clear the yard. Hopefully this will be a really good gem, that i will just snap up Cheers Alex
That vintage required a complete stop to shift forward to reverse but speed gears could be shifted on the go with some throttle work (upshift let off the throttle for an instant, downshift keep your foot in it). A shift from forward to reverse on the move will cause teeth marks in the steering wheel. Later versions introduced modulation on forward and reverse shifts, I'd have to do some research to pinpoint which year that was.
Yea i haven't been on the forums in a little while either :/ Work has been really busy lately because our truck drivers are breaking all of our trucks! First the rear end goes out in one of them, then the tie rod gets bent to a 45 degree angle, then the turbo starts sticking in another! But were starting to get them all fixed lol. Anyways, real glad to hear this machine could be yours soon, i like helping people out (especially when it comes to heavy equipment ). Thanks for helping out on that one oldseabee, I kept forgetting to ask my boss about the shifting because of our recent business. But always glad to learn something new
Gday, Ruralexmech, dont worry about it , i had a car accident earlier this week so have been tied up with trying to sort of recover and dealing with insurance companies. What is an acceptable oil consumption for a engine this size? Is the power shift relatively easy to repair? Has any one had issues with the brakes? i assume they are drum? and does the torque converter overheat when doing a lot of high speed driving? Cheers Alex
The transmission is a counter shaft type as opposed to the allison which is a planetary type. by removing the front and rear covers, the clutch packs are exposed and can be rebuilt in frame with a little patience. 1st and 2nd packs are the same, fwd, rev, 2nd, and 3rd are the same. The convertor has no lockup feature so it can over heat if overloaded for a long time. Roading the machine will not cause overheating unless you try to run up hill or work in too high a gear, if the machine starts to bog down just downshift. There is an oil cooler in the bottom of the rad so if the engine overheats for some reason, the cooler won't work very well. Brakes are Air over hydraulic 4 wheel disc with automatic axle by axle emergency system
Thanks a lot oldseabee, thats brilliant info!!!!!! What type of hydraulic oil do you use in your loaders? Is it an general light engine oil, or a specific type of hydraulic oil. I saw recently a special deal for casterol hydat oil i think, for 630 something dollars for a barrel. So given that the loader needs 80 plus gallons would require about two barrels. How often should this oil be changed? I generally write up my own maintenance schedules, just wondering if its a 1000 hour type limit??? Are the final drives sealed from the gearbox? or do they share the same oil? Whats the average fuel consumption per hour on a machine like this??? For my tractors i work on the general rule of thum For every 20hp used = 1 Gallon per hour fuel consumption. Therefore at 250 hp being used on average 12.5 Gallons per hour. Is this a fairly accurate estimate Cheers Alex
Oldseabee, you seem to know quite a bit more about the machine than i do. I am glad to work along side someone who knows their stuff very well =D. For hydraulic oil we run 10W oil although you could go up to 20W if you so desire but the trade off is heavier oil for slower fluid velocity resulting in higher cycle times. Yes, the brakes as oldseabee said are air over hydraulic disc brakes and there are two of them per wheel. We just rebuilt ours with new gaskets and everything because they had been leaking some fluid, but they work very well otherwise. We change the oil in our Case 580M backhoe-loaders every 1000 hours and i believe you could do the same with the Michigan 175B. But being that the 175B is older, i would consider changing the oil at a bit smaller of intervals because of the build-up of metal shavings, etc. over the years. The final drives should share the same oil as the gearbox but I am not sure, hopefully oldseabee can answer the rest of the questions. Logan
Cheers Logan, once i've had a look at will post more pictures. Now all i have to do is rustle up some more work for it Alex
The finals and differentials should be separate from the gearbox and should use SAE 80W90 gear oil. The transmission should use automatic transmission fluid. For the hydraulics, use hydraulic oil (not engine oil). You can get away with a 2000 hour hydraulic oil and transmission fluid change interval with the loader. Change the differential/final drive oil every 1000 hours. These intervals may differ slightly from the ones in the book but they should do fine and keep the loader running well for years to come. 12.5 gallons an hour sounds rather generous to me for a 250 hp machine. I'd expect it to be more like 9-10 gallons an hour for a loader of that size and vintage. My 105 net hp CAT IT18F is remarkably fuel efficient, it burns just 9-10L (around 2.5 US gallons) per hour for most work.
Righto thanks for that Sultan. I generally use a Casterol, or any other reputable oil brand. Now do these diesels run a heavier grade of diesel to that of general bowser diesel??? Now where are the hydraulic pumps burried? are they are belt driven setup? or are they run in the gearbox? And is there seperate pumps and systems for the loading part and the steering? Do you think it would be possible to run a flail type machine on the front in lieu of the bucket for brush clearing??? cheerio Alex
Diesel's diesel, anything remotely diesel like would do fine on one of these old beasts. Heck they'll even run on used cooking oil. I'm not too familiar with these old michigans, so oldseabee would be a much better source for technial details. I believe any reputable hydraulic oil should do fine provided its the right viscosity for your climate. If I remember right, the loader hydraulic pump on big old michigans were on torque converters to give the effect of variable displacement pumps with just simple fixed displacement gear or vane pumps. I think the steering and loader pumps were separate, but I'm not completely certain.
Thanks again sultan, and to all of you, its such a great place to post ideas and see what i can do with them. I think one of the big things is a lot of young guys like myself are trodden down by others. I have been told that i should grow up, before i try anything like this. I'm really looking forward to the challenge of operating such a big piece of equipment. As i'm studying robotics and mechatronics will be seriously looking into also providing technical support for all heavy electronically controlled equipment. Its a real passion, heavy iron. Anyway back to the 175, are all the filters just a standard type cat?? or should i modify to Cat type filters for ease and for cheapness too? Alex
Transmission oil -1C and above use 30W engine oil, -23C and above use 10W engine oil or C2 hyd trans fluid, -34C and above use ATF Dexron (not Dexron II), so in Canada that is why they use ATF Dexron. Filter change 250 Hrs, oil change 500 hrs. Hydraulic oil -18C and above use 10W engine oil, -34C and above use ATF Dexron. Filter change at 250 hours, oil change 1000 hrs, filters are in tank under a round access plate, no need to drain tank. There are 2 filter elements in the tank, could be donaldson or other brand, but need to be under Clark or Michigan Part number due to pressure requirements, a will fit filter will blow up and scatter paper all over the tank and clog the suction filter. I will see if I can dig up the Clark part numbers for the filters. There is also a suction screen in the tank that should be cleaned, it is under a different access cover. Main Hyd pump is Tyrone double pump. Both sections pump up to bypass pressure 1700 PSI, then one section dumps back to suction, the other section continues on to 2200 PSI Steer pump is also Tyrone double pump, both sections pump up to 1600 RPM, then one section dumps back to suction, this gives more even steering from low to hi RPM Both pumps are mounted on the convertor. The brake system uses brake fluid not hyd oil.
Looked at the Loader Gday all, went and had a look at the loader, well there was good and bad news on that front, heres a precis of what i have discovered. => The starter motor works well => 4 Speed Powershift => 3rd Valve and lines to front for log grab => All tyres are inflated and in good condition => Cab dry, guages work, new start key => New exhaust elbow => Cummins 6 Cly engine, turbo'd => Batteries dead => No cracks, or substantial wear on pins => All remote valves are free => Air tanks hold pressure => One door missing => No lights at all => No apparent oil leaks from engine => Stored outside So thats the main points i have found, when i arrived there it appears the loader was driven around a bit this year, then the bloke got it stuck, it isnt on its guts but close to it, has been left there since april. Looks in ok condition, the bloke said everything worked well when he had it running then. The history of the loader is that i was originally owned by a logging contractor, apparently 9 years ago his contract was cut off, since then the loader has sat. The bloke that now owns it has had it for a year, he said that it is too big for his needs. Getting there today there was light rain, the bloke had nothing ready... I poked and prodded all over the loader. I asked for him to start the loader, its a 24 volt system, he tried to jump start from his ute, the starter solenoid just kept flying in an out. So never got to see it run. So heres what i think will need to be done. => New Cab door => Full set of work and road lights => New Hydraulic oil => New Hydraulic Filters => New Engine oil => New Engine filters => New Fuel filters => New gearbox oil => All loader pins removed, cleaned and regreased => New grease nipples => New fan belts => New radiator coolant Given the asking price of 15k, I don't think the loader is worth much more than 9k given the amount of work i will have to do to get it up to a workable standard. any thoughts greatly appreciated cheers Alex
More Pictures Here are some more pictures of the 175.
The air system could be a problem, I would hook up a compressor to each air tank, unscrew the bleed valve then with air blowing through the tank work on the outside with a hammer to dislodge the fine surface rust powder and blow it out before it gets into the air valves, or remove them and have them boiled out at a rad shop, condensation over a long time will cause this, also the brake calipers and master cylinders may have internal corrosion if the brake fluid was never changed, brake fluid attracts moisture. Calipers are probably Bendix and kits would be available to rebuild them, may need a good honing first.
Thanks oldseabee, can water really badly effect the turbo. Forgot to add that the exhaust was left uncovered, was horizontal but i am still worried about whether the rain has damaged the turbo. So in fact what i have to do is also take all the brakes off it as well, get them all resealed. The brake caliper removal would mean jacking and removing each wheel, yes??? I think with all the work i have to do, it will take me at least a solid weeks worth of work. I'm thinking now that maybe 8k might be a good offer, what do others think this is worth?? cheers Alex
Turbo could be affected, it should be examined to see, the big worry is that enough water got in to go down through the exhaust manifold and on top of one or more pistons, this can cause real excitment on initial start up. The brake calipers may or may not be a problem. I would clean the air tanks first, get the machine working then use a power bleeder to purge as much of the old brake fluid as you can, then watch the brake fluid level in the master cylinders and for leaks at the calipers. If you get several calipers leaking, then you might want to schedule all of them to rebuild. If you only get one or two leaks, fix the ones on that wheel and watch the rest. You will have to get the machine working and the brakes heated up to really tell.
OH WOW!! I didn't know i haven't been on for so long! I guess between work and college, i haven't had much time to check up on how things were going, sorry to kinda leave you hanging there Alex. I'm gonna read through the rest of the new part of the thread and see if there are any more questions i can try to answer. Good luck, Logan
Ok so we have had problems with the brakes on our two 175B's pretty frequently recently (though they are rarely a problem usually though). That being said, i can describe the process to work on both the front and rear brakes very specifically. There are two brake calipers on each disk (so two per wheel). To answer your question though, yes you do need to remove the wheel to get at the calipers. Here's a pretty in-depth description on how to take off each caliper, and then how to replace the seals in each caliper: 1. Remove the wheel: Jack up the wheel that you are going to work on. We use one of those small pneumatic jacks to raise the tire about three inches off the ground. Remove all of the nuts from the wheel (you can leave a nut on the top and one on the bottom started on their threads to be safe). We use a 3/4" drive impact wrench with a 1 1/8" impact socket on the end. The next step (and this is just the way we do it) is to remove the wheel. We put "Forky" (our shop's 1961 gas Clark forklift) in front of the tire with the forks just pressing up against the bottom. Then we fasten a chain around the mast of the forklift and around the tire to pull the tire off the hub and onto the forks of the forklift. 2. Remove the guard On the rear tires, there is an angular piece of steel that guards the brake lines from being damaged. Nothing special to take it off, just remove the bolts and pull 'er off. On the front tires, there is a big piece of curved steel that gets removed. 3. Disconnect Brake Lines The brake lines then come off and just make sure you have a pan below the lines as they will drip brake fluid all over the place when you remove them. After that, I usually depress the brake cylinders to get rid of all the oil that's still in there and so that the calipers come off easier. 4. Take off the Calipers With everything else out of the way, the calipers will just slide right off very easily after removing the 5 remaining bolts that hold them to the axle. These bolts should have lock-tite on them to keep them from loosening up. When you reinstall the bolts, make sure to apply lock-tite liberally over them to keep these bolts in place. 5. Disassemble the Calipers Take the brake pad out first, it should slide off fairly easily and you can set it aside for now. Then you can remove the four bolts that hold each cover on and then you can remove the two covers. After the bolts are off you can pull each of the pistons out of their cylinders and make sure you know which way they came out so they go in the same way! The way i have always taken them out is through the middle of the caliper and NOT through the cover that was just removed. Thoroughly clean each part after removing all of the old seals and o-rings with brake cleaner. Cleaning now finished, you can pat yourself on the back! Don't have a beer yet though, it still needs to go back together =D You should have a collection of new seals and stuff and all of those need to go into the calipers. There are two o-rings that go on the four-bolt covers and you can put those on, but I can't remember if the o-rings are specific to each slot. Anyways, once you find out which ones go where, get the bottle of white lithium grease ready. Grease up each o-ring and slide each one into a slot. Then there are four more o-rings that go into each cylinder to seal each piston. Grease all of those up and put them into their cylinders. Each cylinder also has a rubber skirt to go over it to prevent from material damaging the seal. Those can get greased and inserted into the cylinders with the skirt part facing outward of course. Apply grease to the cylinders and, well... there isn't really an easy way to do this. You just need to finaggle the pistons into each of their cylinders. But do it gently! Make sure that when you get each of them in, that the o-rings still seal around the piston properly. Also make sure to get the skirt over the piston before you put it in and make sure that the skirt is properly sealing the piston. With all of the pistons in- and don't get frustrated if this takes a while to do, they just don't go in easily-you can then pick up the brake pads and use some emory cloth to sand/smooth out the pad. Then after the pad is cleaned up, spray it liberally with brake cleaner to get it nice and clean. Then put the pad in the way it came out. 6. Reassemble Everything past the brake pad is just basic reassembly and doesn't need to me described again. I hope this helps describe the process, its not the most difficult process and its actually one of my favorite things to fix! I guess that's just because i love this machine though. Nonetheless, still refer to the maintenance manual above me since it is the most accurate. Whew, hope that just about covers it. Logan
Sounds like you have done a few. One thing to add is that any grease or lube on the seals has to be compatible with seals that are made for brake fluid, otherwise just use brake fluid for assembly. The wrong grease can cause the seals to deteriorate and start to leak. Be sure to checlk the discs for too much wear or warping
Thanks a lot both of you, without your help and ideas wouldn't dream of taking this on, i will make sure that i have a few contracts signed on, and if so will go to the bank and make an offer... I would love to have a machine like this. Heres what i will be doing to it: >>Brakes will be done >>New Batteries >>Full set of road and work lights >>New Cab door >>Bucket >>Full service Now a question i have also is how much running should i give it before changing the oils, given that it has sat for nearly 8 years, i would be fairly certain that there is a very high moisture content in the oils. Should i really work it first to stir all the muck up before draining or not??? Now with changing the hydraulic oil is there a way of getting into the tank to clean it out??? And how much oil do i need for the diffs?? and should i use a GL-5 type oil, or will a GL-4 be ok?? Now given that i has sat for eight years plus, should i remove all the loader pins and such to remove rust, regrease them and put them back inside?? And does anyone put additives in their oils to help with the longevity of seals? i know for my ute we kept destroying a the main transfer case seal, the heat from the engine just made it turn as hard as hell. We put a teflon additive and that has done miracles in improving the longevity. Sorry for the long post Alex (Many thanks again, your the blokes that make this forum what it is) Cheerio
And also, when i need to move it out of the mud, how do i do it, he has sat there spinning the wheels digging down down down, now it is sitting on a water pipe and telephone lines, will be a big pick and shovel job i imagine Thanks Alex
There is a process in the Operators Manual to clean the hydraulic system: 1. to drain the cylinders, raise the boom to full height and extend the bucket cylinders, SECURELY BLOCK OR CHAIN THE BOOM AND BUCKET IN THIS POSITION, then shut down the engine. 2. Loosen reservoir cap slowly to relieve pressure. Remove the drain plug and drain the reservoir. 3. Remove the drain plug in the hand hole cover at the bottom of the reservoir to drain it. 4. disconnect the boom and bucket cylinder hoses at the lowest points to drain the cylinders. 5. Remove and clean the reservoir suction filter, replace the reservoir return filter assembly 6. Remove the hand hole cover from the bottom of the resrvoir and clean all the foriegn material from the bottom of the tank, remove the magnet and clean it, reinstall the magnet, the hand hole cover and drain plug. 7. Reconnect all hoses and unions. 8. Refill reservoir to FULL mark on dipstick and secure the cap. 9. Be sure all the levers are in the neutral position, start the engine and run it at low idle for a few minutes. 10. Place the boom raise lever in the raise position to pump oil back into the boom cylinders. Then remove the blocks or chains from the boom and bucket. DO NOT STAND UNDER THE BOOM/BUCKET AFTER REMOVING THE BLOCKS AND OR CHAINS. 11. Operate the machine, raising and lowering the boom and dumping and rollback the bucket several times to bleed the air out of the system. Refill the reservoir to Full mark. There will still be some old oil in the steer cylinders and hoses that will go back through the filters. Change the filters after 50 hours. USE NO CLEANING FLUIDS TO CLEAN THE SYSTEM, IT WILL EAT UP SEALS AND PACKINGS. ALL THAT SAID, YOU MIGHT WANT TO DRAIN AND CLEAN THE RESERVOIR FIRST SINCE IT HAS BEEN SITTING SO LONG,THEN GO THROUGH THE CLEANING PROCESS TO PURGE THE REST OF THE BAD OIL. Capacities: Engine oil: Detroit 24.6 liters, Cummins 53 liters Cooling system: 90.8 liters Front and rear Diff: 28.4 liters each Planetaries: 7.6 liters each Fuel tank: 439.1 liters Hydraulic system: 435.3 liters Torque converter and transmission:41.6 liters Midmount bearing: 1.9 liters These are all approximate, fill to correct levels. Gear oil: Original was 90 W SCL which if memory serves me contained whale oil and stunk GL4 should work well and either 85/140W or 90W your choice, the multi weight is better if you have a large swing in ambient temps or more roading. I listed oil specs further back in this or the other 175B string.
In terms of the loader pins, taking them all out, removing the rust, and re-greasing them is the least you can do for it. First inspect all of the pins and any that have a significant amount of rust deposits or pitting will need to get replaced. In addition to that, you need to look at the pin cylinders to make sure that they aren't pitted too terribly as well. There are special brush tools that you can use to clean up the rest of the rust spots. But DON'T run the pins against any sort of sandpaper, emery cloth, or wire brushes to get the rust off. That will only roughen up the pins even more. I will have to ask my fellow mechanic tomorrow what the brushes are called that can clean up these cylinder and pin rust deposits. But the brushes are fairly soft for the most part and we liberally apply PB Blaster to the surface to keep the brushes from wearing out. I'll let you know more in-depth tomorrow after i ask our other mechanic about how to restore/replace the pins. You can put additives in, but from my prior experience oil companies usually MAKE oils the way they are supposed to be, so a good quality oil should do its job just fine without any additives. The chemical engineers generally know what they are doing in formulating oils, but a lot of companies that make additives don't really get that and think they can do the job better. Try using a good quality oil and you should be able to dodge any issues with adding other chemicals to the mix. I think that your best method to get the loader out of the mud is first to dig out material around the wheels and attempt to create ramps in the direction that you wish to get it out of. Then i would suggest putting some wood or coarse gravel as a top-layer for those in-ground ramps to prevent any further slippage. But i don't really think that alone will be enough, so you will most likely need another piece of heavy equipment to help pull it out. Another strategy in getting a wheel loader unstuck is to use the bucket to push yourself out of the situation backwards by jamming the bucket into the ground and crowding the bucket to lever yourself out. But since the machine might be unable to work on its own power, i would recommend the first method to get out. Happy to help Alex, I love to talk about heavy equipment. Logan
Gday all, i have done some digging on the clark loaders and it seems that i have lead you astray a little, the loader is not a 175b, but rather a 175c. There are a few differences, 4 speed powershift Cummins engine 14l, 309.8hp, Its an NT-855C thats the only differences i can find so far, so its newer than what i thought it was, will give the bloke another call this weekend and will make him run it for me. Looking forward to the info about the pins Logan, take it easy cheers Alex
The two biggest differences are the transmission in the 175B was a 3000 series, the 175C upgraded to a 4000 series transmission, the converter stayed the same. The 175C NT-855 is upgraded to the "Big Cam" version. Some of the capacities have changed slightly.
Thanks again old seabee, Well i think im pretty much sold on this machine, i found out that it will do a comfortable 28 on the road, which is very acceptable, the parts are relatively easy to come, the engine service parts are available at the place i deal with already for my mercedes tractor . So will now just have to organize everything. I'm considering driving it home, as its about a 208mi drive, will pack the tent, and drive it back as a holiday. Will be good for all the components, as the hard work will shake everything up, will hopefully do its first job on route A question about the turbo, given that it has sat for so long, should i disconnect the oil lines from the engine and pump fresh oil through?? and would it be advisable to check its operation, by taking it off the intake manifold and using a leaf blower to cycle it, whilst pumping fresh oil through the bearings??? cheers again Alex
I would take the turbo to a shop to be tested. Corrosion on the blades can throw them out of balance, Bearings can have some pitting and still run for a while but the last thing you need is for your engine to digest a blown turbo. Second thing I forgot to add about the 175C, the transmission is modulated so they say you can shift directions with out coming to a complete stop. My opinion is that every time you do that you are slipping the clutchs before they engage fully, my choice is to stop to shift, brakes are cheaper then transmission repairs. Modulation is for lazy operators, very little gain in cycle time
Any slipping of clutches is a bad thing.... I'm just hoping that the previous owners hasn't done that to a great extent. What capacity batteries do most heavy equipment run??? Is it just one type of standard battery that is put in series and parallel combinations to make up the required size??? Given it is a 14 cummins i would expect probably four batteries, two in parallel and then those two sets of 2 in series to form the 24 VDC. happy weekend all Alex
They did change the clutches fwd& Rev to a different material that accepts slippage better and added more plates. To compensate for the slicker plate material they raised the clutch pressure from 180-220 PSI in the 175B to 240-280 PSI in the 175C. They actually did get better life then you would think. I believe that they had 4 batteries, 2 on each side wired Series/Parallel to get 24V
Thanks again, how long can i expect out of the clutch packs??? and the powershift clutches if i do look after the machine, ie ( Not thrashing it to bits, using good oils etc) ?? In terms of equivalence i think this loader would be about the same size as a komatsu WA470, just wondering what short of pushing power i can expect? Would it be similar to a JD 450 dozer?? And what sort of gradient can i run this machine up and down? Would it be able to handle say a 30% grade?? Cheers Alex
Obviously, not knowing the condition of the machine, hard to tell how much life is left. but I've seen 8000 + hours. You can actually replace clutch packs in frame with a little bit of patience. When ever you change filters, cut the old ones up to see what material is in there. Also there is a suction screen in the trans that needs to be cleaned at each oil change. Look at the stuff on the screen and drain the oil through a sieve, this will give you and idea what is going on inside. As to pushing power probably greater then the 450, but limited by traction, the wheels will spin before the tracks will unless you are on concrete. Not a fair comparison. Not sure about the grade never really checked one out. The old sales sheets would have that info. Don't know if I have any around.
I think you might be misunderstanding oldseabee, the loader doesn't have clutches that you engage and can slip as such, they are transmission clutches that operate when you go from forward to reverse and change speeds. Most loaders are designed to change from forward to reverse on the move, some do it better than others, but it is a lot easier on the machine if you come to a stop before changing direction and takes very little longer. We have machines that have done 12,000 hours and they have not given us any problems. As for pushing power, in the right conditions and without knowing the machine, I would say it would have heaps and should handle a 30 degree slope. However, my concern is, that if it is at all wet, that machine would be totally useless, it wouldn't even drive itself, let alone push anything, because of it's weight. I think you mentioned that you wanted to dig a dam and in dry conditions it will be fine, but just keep that in mind, after all, it is already stuck. We often get asked to pull bogged trucks out of paddocks and I tell them, our machines are useless in boggy conditions, they are far better off to use a 4wd farm tractor. In dry conditions, apart from a tracked machine, you can't beat a 4wd loader. RnR.
Hey Alex, I talked to my fellow mechanic today about the pin issue. He agreed that when the pins get pitted from rust, they become unrestorable and should get replaced. For the pins that aren't too badly pitted, you can remove rust with a die grinder that has a sanding disk attached to it. I haven't used a die grinder yet, though it is a somewhat common power tool apparently, so I don't know if using one to remove pin rust would be contradictory to what I said before. Hopefully I can find out more about this process myself though as time goes on. Hope all is well Logan RocksnRoses, you're going to have to explain the differences in these clutch types better. Clutches, when talking about machines that use gasoline or diesel engines to engage and disengage power, are generally referring to transmission clutches that are engaged through some method, and can slip. Just like any other clutch whether it be in a car, truck, etc. Also, the only kind of clutch that is in this machine, or any other hydraulically operated wheel loader, would be a clutch located in the transmission; so the term "transmission clutch" is implied. But seeing the experience you have on this forum, I think we are misunderstanding each other so if you could do a little more explaining about this concept, I could get on the same page as you. Thanks, Logan
Thanks Logan, was just wondering what grade of steel i should use? Had an idea that what i could do, would be to pull the pins and run in a lathe to re-polish them. Logan one of the best tools it a die grinder, its a bit of a hack tool, but for cleaning out holes or such they are the bees knees . A tungsten carbide tip will rip through steel like you wouldn't believe, just a WARNING, WEAR GLOVES, MY HAND TURNED INTO A PORCUPINE with steel slivers, when i used it the first time. Cheerio Alex
Hey Alex, for the steels, you are going to mainly want nickel-chromium-molybdenum steels. Generally speaking, any steels in the 4xxx 8xxx or 9xxx will do okay (those are SAE classifications). You would do alright with just nickel-chromium but NCM steel is the best for this, and the more chromium and molybdenum in the percent composure the better. But of course the trade off is better grade steel for higher cost. And yes, running them through a lathe would be all right. Just make sure not to remove ANY material from the pins if at all possible, only rust. The most material i would remove would be only one or two thousandths of an inch at best. Just make sure to lathe both the new and old pins at VERY low speeds too =D unless you want to start forming grooves in the pin cylinders. Sounds like die grinders are a lot of fun too lol! I remember working on engine blocks with my dremel, some non-stick cooking spray, and a carbide cutting bit. Without any gloves!! I'll never do that again, the three or so days of pain from aluminum slivers piercing my skin constantly with everything i touched really made me appreciate how good it was to have a nice working pair of hands. Sounds like using a die grinder could give me a similar experience if i fail to wear gloves again!! Which i won't! You're making me think about restoring an old Huff i found in a junkyard Alex, who knows maybe with a little cash it could turn into a fun winter project of my own! Hah, did i just say winter? Yea its about 29 degrees Fahrenheit here in Wisconsin. Hope the summer is nice down under Alex Logan
A little clearer explantion of transmission clutches in the Clark Transmission and modulation: There is a seperate clutch pack for forward and reverse and each speed gear. The clutch pack consists of a drum with internal teeth and a shaft with internal teeth. The drum has a series of discs stacked up steel smooth discs with external teeth that mate with the internal teeth of the drum and friction discs surfaced with bronze alloy or some other compound. behind these dics at the bottom of the drum is a piston that either is relaxed or has clutch pressure oil behind it to squeeze the stack up of discs together to lock the drum to the shaft, that would be a forward or reverse clutch pack, if no oil is applied to the piston in either drum, the machine would be in neutral. There are also clutch packs for each speed, in the non modulated machine, when you go to fwd or rev by shifting a control valve on the transmission, you have instantanious full flow of oil to the piston, slamming the clutch discs together so if you are going in rev and want to move fwd, you are taking oil away from rev clutch and applying oil to fwd clutch, there will be no slow down, but a severe fwd clutch engagement that will put the machine in forward insantaniously causing severe strain on the driveline and jerk the operator. In a modulated transmission control valve there is a modulation valve in the circuit to fwd and another in the reverse circuit, this when you change direction on the move, this valve slows the rate of flow to the piston in that is in the clutch for the direction you have shifted to applying the clutch slowly, in effect allowing the discs to have a controlled slip while coming up to full clutch pressure. At the same time you have dumped the oil out of the reverse clutch so those discs can freewheel. The result is that the slower appliying of the fwd clutch will bring the machine to a stop and then start to go forward. To explain exactly how all this is done is quite complicated, this should at least give an idea of what is going on.
Logan, I was hoping oldseabee would help me out here and he has, by explaining the operation of the clutches in the transmission and a very good explanation, I might add. The point I was trying to make is that on a vehicle, it is very easy for the driver to slip the clutch, because it is mechanically operated. If the vehicle is bogged, a rough operator can slip the clutch trying to get it out and eventually damage the clutch by wear and overheating. It is imposible to do this on a wheel loader, because with the torque convertor, you have a fluid drive between the engine and transmission. When the machine stops while loading the bucket or it becomes stuck and cannot drive, all it is doing is stalling the torque convertor, not slipping the clutches, because they are hydraulically operated. What I am saying is that you can not physically slip the clutches, but as oldseabee said, they are designed to slip slightly, when going from forward to reverse and you can reduce the wear on them by stopping the machine when going from forward to reverse. As the machine gets older the slippage may increase to a point where eventually it will not drive, but as I said before, I have machines that have done 12,000 hours and are still working with no slippage problems at all. RnR.
Okay cool, it all makes a great deal of sense Thanks for both of the explanations guys. I'm always glad to take the time to understand someone and learn something new. Now back to your regularly scheduled threading. :drinkup:drinkup
Gday fellas, one issue that i have come up against is the ground pressure of this loader, given that i will be going on to job sites that might be quite soft, how can i still get the work done with the machine, i know on my tractor we have duel tires, is this an option for this kind of loader? or could i put on rubber tracks in lieu of the wheels? The last worry i have is using the loader as a small dozer. I'm concerned that if i use it in this way i could well and truly stuff the machine up big time... I had another idea, was wondering if i could get a small dog trailer to tow behind the loader as i road it from one job to another, would like to have a diesel tank, plus attachments on the trailer??? Any ideas, cheers Alex
Michigan memories. When I was in my 20s helping out my fathers friend in his late 60s soft hat on the wild side guy. Anyway I started out with a straight frame 175 i think but had a V 6 Detroit. These things had a stupid kotter pin from the gov. to the rack the pin is as big as a sowing needle. It somehow came out and ya all know there was Detroit stuff scattered all over the pit. Of course we all ran and let it blow up. The emerg cable was busted for years. Ok he traded old bones for a new 275 V8 Detroit. The first thing, he did was to take the whole side off his beautiful 64 Ford 10wheeler. Just didnt read the manual. You got about 5+ yards in there and about 1/4 way dumping I remember an electric thingy and it goes "free fall" and there went that body. Next was constant engine problems. Dealer guy from NH comes down said go ahead, dealer guy says get out watch me. He runs it like he stole it. Yea put on youre ear muffs go for it. Since that day no more problems. How this for the boss, he fell off the ladder of this loader and his watch dog (junk yd dog) bit him right in the nose. I know that Canadian Mist got a lot to do with this. How about he use to tie the JYD to the pintle hook. You got it, took off with truck what a fast running dog. In closing dumped off didnt put body down 10miles of wires down. Oh he forgot, didnt open tail gate, poor ole Ford straight up in the air. Backward off a cliff in a TD20 fan through radiator he went to the hospital on that one. My memories of soft hat Frank.
Your concern about ground pressure is a very valid one. Wheel loaders love to sink in mud, and they get stuck way too easily. Be extra cautious in soft ground. When your wheels make ruts deeper than 4", stay out of the area if at all possible till it is firmed up. I can't give exact ground pressure numbers in psi for a wheeled machine though because the more you sink, the greater the ground contact area, but still the ground pressure in a wheel loader, especially under the front tire with a loaded bucket is extremely high. You don't want to get a big loader like that stuck, so be extra careful. I routinely work in softer ground with my loader because I have to, and I do get stuck on a regular basis (as in almost daily) when working in muddy oozing ground. When the ground gets soft, it is important to maintain momentum whenever possible to get out of the soft spot ASAP, or to back out of the soft spot right away. Once you start sinking, you're often done. I've had my loader sink down to the axles and frame in ground that felt almost firm when walking on it. I can get away with this because I always have other bigger machines to pull me out when I get stuck, but getting stuck is still a great waste of time that I always try to avoid. I can't emphasize this enough: wheel loaders have very high ground pressure and sink very easily. DON'T GET STUCK, ESPECIALLY ON A BIG RIG LIKE THE 175! I've never seen dualies on wheel loader, but they'd be nice if they're available somewhere. Having a limited slip differential or a differential lock is very useful in wet ground. Unfortunately, my loader has just regular diffs, so I get stuck too often. Using a loader as a dozer is fine, and you can push large volumes provided that the material being pushed isn't too coarse, tough, or compacted. Make sure the bottom of the bucket is level with the ground so that you're not stessing the curl mechanism when pushing. Backdragging is good for finishing. Avoid pushing forward with the bucket in the dump position; it's tempting because it fills holes better this way, but it overloads the bucket curling linkage. When pushing tougher and compacted material, you'll find that you'll spin your wheels rather easily, and it just takes practice to control that. However, even the best operator will still spin his wheels a bit when dozing a tough compact surface. Loaders can pull trailers fine; look for one with a long tongue though because the drawbars tend to be high on loaders. I don't pull trailers much with my loader, and I don't know the DOT rules in your area, so I can't advise you much on trailers.
Thanks a heap Sultan, have a look at Sourcy tracks, they have them for tractors and combines, i thought a set for the 175 might be just the thing. At the moment the loader is stuck in mud, so i will have to dig it out if i do purchase it. On our farm i'm going to a put in raised beds and new drainage, so theres going to be a fair bit of work for it doing that. I'm also considering putting on a flail mulcher to remove scrub and such, hence i want something like a dog trailer so i can put all my attachments on, and maybe a place for a tent if im doing bigger jobs. I wonder what i should charge per hour for just the machine, was thinking around 150 per hour plus my labor at 25 per hour. thanks Alex
I'd love to have duallies on my trusty old IH 766 tractor But getting the rims and tires would cost me almost as much as the tractor's value. That tractor has a great engine btw - you can start it at -10 Celsius without any heating or ether and just 3 seconds cranking. Runs smoke free too when not too loaded, which is rare among 1970s engines. Those Sourcy tracks look pretty cool too. Something like that would be nice on a wheel loader. But then, there are crawler loaders for that purpose. Where I am, the going rate for a ~270 hp CAT 966G/H inlcuding an operator is around $230/hour for commercial work, though it's a bit less for private smaller farm jobs . That being a 300ish hp machine, I'd guess around $250/hour for commercial work, and you can make deals when working for farmers.
Well fellas have had a look at every other possible earthmoving machine, from excavators, bobcats, backhoes, dozers, track loaders and nothing really suits my application. The high road speed, power and capability far outweighs any other machine. Going to make a full set of attachments eventually for it, Bulldozer blade, Spade rock bucket, Backhoe attachment and a Log grab. So will now try and get it home for Christmas . Going to be one hell of a lot of wrapping
Good luck Alex as you take this giant step into the great unknown. I worked for Clark for 24 years both in engineering and field service and do have some technical info, component manuals and such, more than happy to help if I can.
Well the GF thinks i'm nuts, as do all my friends. I have every body part crossed now that it will turn out ok, i have picked up a small demo job, have to push down a weather board shed, and break up some concrete. Just can't wait to just punch straight through the wall I have got onto a tip trailer, so that will be hauled behind my big tractor I know i have spoken previously about buckets, but what size do i need to get??? Can i use a cat bucket??? if so which model?? Cheers again Alex
This a a picture of a few 175's we have at the pit. We basically only used them for loading end dumps/side dumps. Heavy use was snow plowing with 3ft bucket extensions on the sides. These have to be my favorite machines as well for power weight reliability. I really wish the new equipment had this level of quality put into it. This picture was taken last day at work last fall right before they sold out to the cunts. I'm half debating having a junkyard of these and making another pusher fleet out of them . Still have yet to see anyone move more snow then two of these bucket to bucket at 20mph.
I could still buy one of our old loaders for 12k but I dont think it will fit in my driveway.
I found one of my old buddies still in town. It doesnt have the bucket extension on but still a snow beast.
Gday fellas, managed to find another Clark Michigan loader, its a 125 i think, not too certain. It has a perkins 6cyl motor in it. I'm thinking that it might be a 6-354, but again i'm not sure. Does anyone know of a parts supplier in Australia?? Cheers Alex
I can't say I know of any parts suppliers down there, but that's pretty cool that you found a Michigan with a Perkins engine in it. Perkins makes some of the best diesel engines out there, they're powerful, fuel efficient, and can take almost anything u throw at them!
Did you end up getting the loader and getting it fixed? Fun reading thru the posts and learning info from guys like oldseabee and others.
Does anyone have a diagram of the braking system? It's air over hydraulic. It's a 175 B has double caliper on each side of the axle not drum brakes. A bleeder on each. How is it air over hydraulic if only thing going to brakes is fluid? I'm trying to fix the brakes. Any help would be great! Thanks!
Well you have to work back from the ends of the axles to see where the lines for brake fluid are attached I can just about guarantee you will find that the line is connected to something that has an air line connected to the other end that comes from an air valve under the floor of the cab.
I did this from front and back. The brake pedal has air to it but it's not engaging brakes. Two hose coming off This I'll attach picture it's some kind of valve. One goes to another main air line one goes to nothing and I can't figure out where. That's why I was asking for diagram. Sorry should have included that. Thanks for the reply!
heres picture
Won't let me upload pictures
Try looking around on this parts book: https://www.tractorparts.com/PDFs/MICHIGAN_175B_WHEEL_LOADER_427C_438C_BOOK_3171.pdf Scroll down to page 47 and a few after.
Ciao Nick, hai il numero di serie del tuo MICHIGAN 175B ?? Sono ex Dealer Italy per MICHIGAN Loader . Regards
427B345
Thank you I'll try to use as reference!