This isn't an excavator-specific set of questions, but really more specific to the Mitsubishi engine - and this is a gray-market machine for which I've got a parts book (in Japanese) and no other documentation. The 4D32 seems to be a relatively common engine in Asia, but not stateside. I've got some kind of fuel-circuit problem that's resulted in poor power and missing. I had the tank out due to a pinhole, & this was a long-duration repair. In the meantime, I ran it occasionally to reposition & do some light work, and during that time, fueled from a simple jury-rigged 5-gal bucket setup. Far as I can recall, it ran OK prior to the leak, though I wasn't using it much. I'm certain it took up some air during tank-swapping, but it never really seems to have bled. Now the real tank is back in, I've bled it to death, and it's still missing like crazy and stumbles/dies very easily. I don't think it's a simple filter-clog, since fuel flows out the top of the filter-housing if I pull the 1/8" pipe plug, and all the injectors spit at me while I crack their nuts open at idle - though I should mention the impact on the idle of cracking each of them is far from consistent or uniform across the four. Here's one of my big unknowns about the fuel circuit: there are three tank hoses. One's clearly the return. Another is obviously the feed to the normal-service mechanical fuel pump, which has a typical hand-primer pump built in. But the third hose...a short length off the bottom of the tank feeds an electric clicker pump, also mounted on the bottom of the tank, and that pump pushes fuel directly to a port that's on the 'front' (small end) of the IP. That IP port is physically quite near to the return port, but just 'around the corner,' so to speak. There was no filter in this line, which bothers me a lot, since it's definitely set up to push fuel /towards/ the IP. The electric pump is, I think, only intended for some kind of bleeding assistance when it's run dry - I say this because there's a spring-return, momentary rocker switch that powers it from the cab, so it's not intended to be left on. (Who'd want to pump gritty, sludgy, near-bottom-of-tank fuel to the IP after running dry?) Or did I get that wrong? Anyway, I'd never had much luck with the electric pump helping or hurting, but it and the IP hose connections are concerning me as unknowns, now that I've got this lumpy, irregular running. I'm thinking I might order & replace injectors and see what that does for me - but is there anything else to check first? Thanks - Dave
Do you know what the serial number of the machine is?
Sure...it's 2FL00800. Got something? --Dave
That's probably a Zexel pump. If it's an inline pump then apparently there's a screen in the banjo bolt at the inlet fitting on the bottom of the pump. That could cause some of your problems. Also the likely water contamination that led to the pin hole in the tank could have caused problems anywhere? Do you have any pics of where the 3rd line comes into the IP, maybe the rocker switch that controls that 3rd line pump? Never heard of anything like that, sorry. Also, you could get the injectors tested before deciding to replace them, or remove and observe the pattern on the engine but out of the cylinder. And do a compression test at the same time.
Emphasis on that screen in the center of the banjo bolt where the feed line comes from the tank, it's a Mitsubishi common issue.
Delmer, Thanks, good stuff. Those are the kind of suggestions I was hoping for. I'll see about getting the screen out of the inlet fitting, though it's in one of the worst places to try to reach (without removing the cab). I have memories of pulling the pump out once after running too low, and finding enough gritty stuff within the check-valves to have made the mech pump stop working. I'd become numb from cussing by the time I was done, and swore I'd replace it with an electric pump if I ever had to do anything more in that zone. And thinking about it again, it could be the same thing has happened, but hey, wait, I have fuel coming out the bleeder-screw when I crack it (top of filter housing), so wouldn't this be a painful and pointless task? (Not that I don't engage in those regularly.) I think not a water-in-fuel issue (hopefully) because the way I noticed the leak was a growing stain in the soil under the excavator, eg fuel leaking out, not so much water leaking in, or so I hope. On draining the tank, I definitely got some rusty crap, but not more than I think is typical from condensation-accumulation. The rust-hole came from the outside, under a hidden buildup of leafy/soily debris that was against an inner face of the tank, piled up against the bottom weld for the last X years... Here's a scan of the parts-book page showing the IP - maybe you can determine if it looks like the Zexel you mentioned. I just sent that to a Japanese-native friend to see if he can translate the descriptions for the three fuel connections. Here's a photo of the 'front' of the pump where two banjos live: it's a very constricted space and none too clean, but maybe you will be able to see what's going on . Rocker-switch, too, shown below...funny, the 'universal' symbol on the switch is an icon of a typical gas-station pump. Prior to pulling out the tank, I'd assumed that the electric pump either just bypassed the mechanical, or drew FROM the IP, so as to pull air out of the rest of the system, but there's no way it could have been installed thusly. I should own a diesel compression-tester, but don't yet. I guess I have to hit ebay for that. Question: to aid in diagnosis and bleeding, I keep wanting to install - at the bleed-screw on top of the filter-housing - a tee leading to a 1/8" valve and a snubber/pressure-gauge. Wouldn't that be immensely helpful in checking fuel filter isn't clogged and that reasonable pressure is reaching the IP?
Thanks lantraxco...See my followup about the screen - if I'm getting fuel out the filter-top bleed-screw, doesn't this rule out a problem with that screen? --Dave (so now I have to google "Morooka," along with the rest of my Japanese manual...?)
No, you're getting low power and missing. Assuming both of those are with the engine running... then you need to have flow and pressure, at the same time. A pressure gauge is an excellent way to diagnose fuel issues. So the far right switch is the starter? Then is the "gas pump" an extra fuel start aid, hydraulic activated, the unfiltered fuel not mixing with the filtered? hard to believe they'd go to that much trouble but what do I know? You can do a rough "compression" test by pressurizing each cylinder with a rubber nozzle air gun and seeing if you can detect air leaking out the intake, exhaust, or crankcase, the places where the compression will eventually leak.
No, I *think* that's glow-plug switch...I began using this machine before I even knew it had glow-plugs, but never used them even after I checked it out a little more - simply since I never had a problem starting it (still don't)... From all wiring-checks, disassembly and device-noticing duringmy pokings and proddings over the years, there's no associated hydraulics - it just switches on the electric fuel pump for as long as you can stand to hold the switch down. Ah, so the point wasn't to quantify, but to look for leaks, then? What about the IP - is it familiar? I never asked about the line tying the filter outlet to the return-line banjo...presumably there's some kind of spring-check valve in that line at some point, maybe a flow-control valve - something, anyway - that prevents it from just short-circuiting fuel back to the tank, dumping all the pressure there? --Dave
Glow plugs makes even more sense. I have NO idea about the 3rd line, was just thinking that it could possibly activate something hydraulically inside of the injection pump. Makes no sense, but neither does priming with unfiltered fuel when there's already a priming pump there. I'm no pump expert, that one doesn't look like the Zexel on a 4D34 that I'm trying to figure out, but it is a mirror image to a Kiki that I took a look at. Mine has that fitting going to a third port on the fuel filter base. All of the "extra controls" on mine are mounted on the back of the pump, so that would seem to rule out my "hydraulic fuel enrichment" notion. Then again, my engine has a throttle plate and NO cables going to the IP, so what help is that. For all I know of the workings of these pumps the ports that are connected could be the "waste" side, and it wouldn't matter if the fuel is filtered, it's going through the filter before it goes into the injectors anyway? I wouldn't worry about the original engineering, if it doesn't look Jethro'd in there then it's probably fine. Lantraxco seconded the banjo screen so do that first. Then maybe install a fuel pressure gauge. Then I'd take a look at the injectors and compression.
I'm still stuck in my tracks, so to speak, but I've got some more (confusing) data: 1) I didn't pull out the mech pump or check the screen that's said to be somewhere on the inlet to it (it's really hard to pull due to location, and I think nothing is clogged)... but I did test it by substitution - I bypassed it with a lay-around electric pump. With the electric pump running the fuel flows without a problem through the circuit, and it can be seen/heard splashing back into the tank, so I take it this is as good of an indication as one could hope for that there's no screen or filter blockage. 2) As if that were not enough, I put a gauge at the IP fuel inlet, and it jumps past its 10psi scale as soon as the pump is on, so I have no question the IP is being fed with fuel. 3) Running conditions are, abruptly, WORSE. It went from crappy, stumbly running, to not starting at all after I'd posted a few times about this problem. 4) I was wrong in my supposition about that far-right switch being for glow-plugs. Testing revealed that they get energized by a relay that the start-switch engages; I don't know what switches them off. (I seem to recall now that the far-right switch is an unlikely power-limiter device...) 5) I've bled everywhere repeatedly, right up to the injector tube nuts, and though I get fuel out, I now get no ignition at all. I'm hanging all my hopes on bad fuel right now, and that's not entirely wishful thinking. I've run this machine on biodiesel for the most part for some years of intermittent use, but the last batch I bought recently smelled like rotten meat. The producer isn't a small-time operation, and says it should be fine since they run their vehicles on it, though. And that may NOT be the problem, since I refilled another machine with 10 gals of the same stuff and have been using it intermittently for about a month now. Still, my machine went from stumbling and running poorly on the previous fuel, to not starting at ALL on the newer stuff (I didn't mix them when I put the rebuilt tank back in). With nothing else that's easy to test, I figure I will buy 5 gal of petrodiesel and see what happens when I replumb things to run that fuel instead. Not a lot to lose there. Failing that - compression test, I guess? Delmer, you mentioned some means (maybe theoretical) of pulling the injectors and reconnecting them to their fuel lines. I don't know of a simple way to do that. If there is, please let me know, since that would be far easier than running around town trying to find a willing diesel shop to test them - though I'd do that right off if I had some indication that it was worth doing. Thanks - Dave
An injection shop will test the opening pressure, spray pattern, and no dripping. You can tell if the spray pattern is way off by hooking up the injectors outside of the head. Either with an extra injector line, or one of the originals might be able to turn enough. Usually the toughest part is getting the injectors out (in general, never done a Misubishi). At that point, might as well get them tested and do a compression test... Short of water getting into the cylinder, the compression shouldn't drop from sitting... For now, either you're getting fuel into the cylinders or not. Is there any mist/fog/smell coming out of the exhaust when you're cranking the engine? You have overwhelmingly suspect fuel, but you don't think the screen is clogged? I still do. Trying another pump that doesn't get the engine to start is not a conclusive test in my opinion. The 10PSI reading is something, I can't argue with that. Did you bleed the injector tube nuts AT THE INJECTORS? with no air bubbles? Then hook them back up and see if you get mist out the exhaust. Sorry, I'm not more help, my experience is limited to outside the pump. You do know that age and humidity turn GOOD biodiesel into nasty slime, right?
Thanks, Delmer... There is a light-gray mist coming out of the exhaust as I crank, but not even a hint of ignition. I finally thought to check my stop-solenoid, thinking it had failed in the stop position, but it looks like it's operating. Screen clog: I can't see how it could even be a factor with my bypass. It's said to be at the lift-pump inlet, right? I've got the lift pump completely out of the equation - pulled off and blocked the outlet hose, bypassed with an entirely separate electric in-tank pump and 10' of hose going directly to the filter-head inlet. Did you or I misunderstand where the screen is said to be? (Even if I did, there's a steady flow of fuel through the filter/return circuit, returning to the tank constantly, so I can't see how there could be any still-relevant problem with the lift-pump, screen, or existing hoses: all of them, other than the return-hose, are bypassed for testing. Yes, been bleeding right at the injector-tops, and occasionally at the filter-top, though I'm convinced that's not necessary because that circuit has an active "flow" now from the electric pump - no air there at all. The smelly biodiesel is only a month old. I've actually not had a problem with biodiesel going bad, even after years of sitting in a tank - though it does "polymerize," leaving chicken-skin-like deposits on items like filter-screens, and a brownish gunky coating on metals - like the brown stains you get on the outsides of old frying-pans, also from oxidizing. But the liquid portion still burns fine. Inside of the tank on my loader probably looks like Steven King's worst nightmare, but it fires up every time. I came home this evening with 5 gal of petrodiesel, and tomorrow I will swap over to that with a new filter and see if there's any difference. Seems to me the deterioration is indeed too fast to be anything "wearing out" or the injectors getting gunky, but this is new territory for me. Thanks again - Dave
Fires up every time, until now that is. I was wondering why Pumpguy hasn't set us straight yet. Now I know, he saw this coming before I did and is down at the bar crying in his beer over another poor abused biodieseled pump. With the mist, you're getting fuel so everything should be working up to that point. Have you checked the glowplugs? disconnect the electrical connector from each one and take an ohm reading in place, it should be obvious that they're all in the same range or open. And are they getting power when you crank? letting them warm up 10-20 seconds before cranking? One wouldn't think you'd need glowplugs, but if they had been coming on everytime it started and now the injectors are messed up maybe they're needed now??? I agree compression shouldn't go bad overnight, but worn gas engines will sometimes "wash down" the cylinders with gas, causing aggravating low compression/no start when working on other problems. I've never seen it, but it sure could happen to a diesel, might involve some sticky rings as well. With fuel that "green" gunky injectors could happen at any time, it's not like this was running fine one minute and then wouldn't start the next.
Does it have a diesel burning glow plug in the intake manifold? Some 307s did and it can cause air in the fuel if the valve in the glow plug is not seating.
No, no 'devices' in the intake manifold. There are four glow-plugs in the standard top-of-cylinder locations, though. From testing yesterday, they're getting power, but only when keying over to the 'crank' position on the keyswitch. I do need to get out there and check their resistance, though, as Delmer mentioned. On that subject - another of the gray-market mysteries of this machine is a device that used to be installed amongst other controls, next to the starter-switch. It's got to have something to do with the glow-plug circuit (I think so because it heats up under some circumstances, eg trying to start), but it's only connected by 18-ga wire. Photos show the thing. It's as if it was some indicator that glow-plugs were energized, blended with a bizarro cigarette-lighter...it doesn't get hot enough to melt a plastic-bag, though - I'd had it wrapped up to keep it from getting too dirty or wet in the bottom of the console when I hadn't realized it even got hot, and the bag's still OK.
More data, as I dive into the rabbit-hole: 1) did the fuel-swap (positioned a temp tank with new petro-diesel & fully flushed rest of system) but this produced no new results - still no hint at ignition 2) glow-plugs are indeed getting power at key-over 3) glow-plug resistance ranges from 3.4-4.5 ohms, so I think not a problem (I could pull them and verify that they 'glow,' but it seems like a remote possibility that all plugs suddenly failed, right?) Since I see nothing else to test at this point, I dived into pulling out stuff. I'm doing some googling to see how to get the injectors pulled; they're held 'down' by a bolted-on rocker assembly, and look as if once that's gone they should pull out manually, but if they do, it's sure not easy. I can turn the injectors all day with a little 10mm wrench, but they apparently aren't threaded, since they just keep spinnin'...more pulling force needed? Yes, I will get a diesel compression-testing setup ASAP, but that's prolly going to be a mailorder proposition. Another option: if I've got the adapter fittings to make it work, I am wondering if a leakdown tester would have value here - it's intended for gasoline engines, but it seems like the same concept applies, where my compressed air would be injected into each cylinder in turn, to monitor how quickly & where each leaks. Anyone? I also have an assortment of accessory pressure-gauges I might be able to plumb in without waiting for a real kit to come. What rough pressure-range would be right for this? Failing all of the above to reveal a problem - is there a way to test the IP while on the engine? What are typical test parameters? --Dave
I was able to tease out one of the injectors - just a matter of rigging some pulling leverage, something I'd forgotten had to be done, even. It's a Denso pump, now that I can read the data-plate. Local shop gets $57 to test four, and would charge $80-something to rebuild each if need be. That wouldn't be an issue if I knew it would fix the problem, but yeah, I don't...and I suspect I can get new ones for less. I suppose compression-testing first would be the way to go - but since these are not threaded injectors, I guess I will have to reinstall them and the retainers, & compression-test via the glow-plug holes, yes? Any way to test the IP...for pressure? Volume? --Dave
I had a Kiki pump on a SD-33t Nissan once that did what you described. It had set 5 years and it had a plunger stuck I believe. I rigged up a temp. tank with 50% atf and diesel and let it run for about 2 hours. Finally she let go with a belch of black smoke and ran fine from then on. Getting it started was another story, did you know you can push start a Funk Reversomatic?
Wait...what do you mean by "getting it started," if that's not what immediately preceded the part about "...let go with a belch of black smoke and ran fine from then on..."? I wish I owned a Funk Reversomatic, just to tell chicks about it. Gotta google that. --Dave
He push started the engine, let it run for two hours, then it let out the black smoke and ran fine. That's my take. Looks like the glow plugs check out OK. The only way I know to check an injection pump is to hook one of the injectors back up and watch the spray pattern. A leak down test would give you some info, you should be able to tell if there's a dramatic difference between the cylinders at least. If it was me, I'd check all of the external banjo bolts for plugged screens, hook the lift pump back up the way it was originally, and do whatever it takes to get it started: use kerosene (#1 diesel), warm up the engine/intake, etc. The last Cat from Hawaii started and worked with the timing 180 off, so this thing should start if it's getting any fuel at all injected.
That two way fitting usually has a check valve in it with a spring. The fitting hooks into the pump with the big hose going back to the tank. The small hose comes from the spill off from the injectors and goes back to the tank. I've seen crud in that check valve which lets fuel go back to the tank. All the Zexel pumps I've worked on have the screen in the banjo bolt at the suction side of the hand pump if there was one. I've seen the electric pumps before and most for were priming the system after changing the fuel filters. I've seen some machines with the plastic fuel tanks under the cab and there was a strainer there. The last possibility is that the pump drive shaft has slipped on the drive gear. Many of the injection pump units I've worked on had a key and a tapered shaft with a nut on the end that needed to be torqued to a certain specification and wasn't. The nut came loose and the key sheared off dropping the timing. Most of those units can be timed by removing the check valve below where the steel line for number one is hooked up. Find out the timing and back the engine to before that mark. Run your priming pump and turn the engine very slowly watching the fuel coming out of the #1 fuel injection line. When the fuel stops coming out of the line, stop turning and check where you are on the timing marks. It that is correct you will be on the timing mark. If not run the process again and if wrong you have a problem. A service manual would show how all that is done.
Thanks, John C - You're talking about a check-valve on the FILTER-return connection, then, built into that banjo with the two inlets on it ('2-legged banjo', from my relabeled photo below, yes?) That would make sense, especially if the check-valve spring is also configured to regulate lift-pump pressure into the IP, right? (If it free-flowed or was stuck somehow, I'd be losing most of my incoming lift-pump pressure there - maybe that's what you were saying?) I'll take it apart tomorrow just to check it since it's not too hard to get to. If an unwanted bypass was happening, though, I was still getting something more than a tiny amount of diesel coming through the open injector tubes while I was (forever) cranking to bleed out suspect fuel. Any rough estimates of how MUCH fuel I should be getting for, say, 15 seconds of cranking, from one injector tube? I was keeping an old 35mm film plastic canister over the end of one tube so as to roughly check the fuel quality & assess whether I'd gotten new diesel through yet...I'd very roughly estimate a teaspoon came through after an aggregate of 2 minutes of cranking. If it comes to pulling the pump out, I have mostly top access - with the photo showing my maximum view from the side of the pump (none to speak of below). Is it feasible/reasonable to get it out without other dis-assembly? --Dave
I don't think you're getting enough fuel. First check that banjo fitting. Next mount the injector you have out on the injector line and see if itis spraying fuel. If you have one injector spraying it should be firing on one cylinder at least.
Thanks, Mobiltech. It's really rainy morning here so I might not make any progress with that banjo, but let me ask you this: I've got all injector tubes out now, and just one injector out. So if I can cobble up some way to connect the injector to an open port on the IP (without having to completely murderize one of the tubes to make both connections), would testing be meaningful, even with all other IP ports open? (I don't mind "messy"...just want it to be useful.) On a more theoretical level: every time I struggle with a nest of injector tubing, I wonder why none that I've seen use high-pressure flex, eg braided-stainless over teflon. It'd certainly be more expensive, but would it not work? Maybe too springy under pressure? If I could come up with the fittings easily, I'd do it that way. What cylinder cranking-pressure range would you expect, in case I can come up with a lay-around gauge to plumb in? Would 800psi cover it? Mahalo - Dave
Yes, flex lines swell slightly like a balloon with each pressure pulse, so no good. Actually the steel lines do swell a tiny bit, and while I have never bothered to try and measure them, I was told to insure perfect timing that each fuel injector line is exactly the same length as all the others, which is why you see some really odd looking bends and U's in some of the lines.
Sorry about the confusion,I can be less than clear when I'm not think things through. Delmer nailed what I did,spot on. The starter would'nt spin it over fast enough to compensate for the leakage past the plunger. When spun up fast enough it ran weakly on the 5 cylinders. I have also seen plungers stick in 3208 Cat pumps that have set awhile ,had to take the top off and carefully pry them loose with a wooden dowel, maybe should have push started it.
Push-starting tracked equipment...gotta check out Youtube for that. I suppose if it doesn't work, there's an equal chance of becoming a viral hit somehow. Thanks for the info. -Dave
Thanks Mobiltech, too; following John C's descriptions I decided to look into the banjos for ball check-valves. Two spring-ball-checks exist in places where they make sense; one requires the filter-head outlet to overcome spring-pressure in order to return to tank, and the other is built into the bolt that's from the mystery-electric pump that's controlled from the rocker-switch in the cab. In taking the return banjo and the "mystery pump" banjo off, I was able to determine that they lead into the same chamber, with no restriction, so hitting the rocker-switch to get that electric pump going would have pumped unfiltered fuel into the return-port of the IP, with...help me out here...some, or all of it returning to the tank again? I'm still thinking the designers weren't silly enough to pump unfiltered fuel into the return-port for no reason, but I can't see what good this could ever do. There was some orangey-rusty scum visible coating some of these passages, so clearly some rusty glop had made it that far. Also following a few people's suggestions, I found I could fit up one injection-tube to an injector floating in the air outside the engine compartment, so I cranked it a bit while within a clear plastic container. Far from the fine mist I'd expected, it looked like an irregular "spiders-legs" pattern of radiating streams. Not good, right? I've resisted every instinct to rotary-wire-brush it and examine the nozzle under magnification to see what I can see, having read at least one source that says not to use even a manual wire brush to clean them. Is there really such a taboo? If so, how can one safely clean them? I also suppose it's not going to be just the external crud that's messing them up, but I'm game for disassembly and reassembly if that's not a guaranteed-to-fail process without specialty equipment. I'll be googling for this, but very interested in suggestions in this vein. --Dave
Oops it was'nt a crawler it was a 3 wheel Ingram roller. I did'nt mention it because I did'nt think,sometimes whats in my head does'nt come out of my mouth or keyboard .Push starting crawlers was common before powershift trannies came along. I suppose you could push start a powershift if you could crank the engine enough to get clutch pressure, that's what I did on that old Ingram. Sorry if I took your thread on a rabbit trail I was just relaying a experience when a funny tale got in the way!
The spiders legs pattern might be normal, irregular doesn't sound good. Look up some images, find ones of multi hole injectors, if that's what yours are. Acetone and a toothbrush is how you clean them. Or something less aggressive if the toothbrush melts. If you take the injectors apart wear gloves, don't touch anything with bare hands, rinse everything in clean diesel and reassemble wet, no wire brushes. What do you have to lose? 800 psi is enough for a compression tester, you should get something like 400psi, and not much difference between the cylinders. PS: don't try to push start a hydrostatic-planetary-reduction... just don't.
Thanks, Delmer. I didn't see your message until I'd already gotten into cleaning the injectors, but I think I did OK. They did have a lot of slightly-greasy carbon buildup on the nozzles, and I might horrify you when I tell you I used 0000 (superfine) steel wool for the most part - toothbrush didn't do much, wooden chopstick helped with the recess just below the bulb. The jets/holes are much finer than I'd expected - way smaller than my smallest number bit, tip-cleaner...even a straight pin only fits partway in. I needed to probe some of the holes because they were (seen under magnification) really plugged with the same gunk. I'll tell you, acetone swells and shreds nitrile gloves even faster than lacquer-thinner... Do I think it's going to start up and purr? Not really...bad as the injectors were, I don't really believe they just suddenly took a crap and stopped being able to do their jobs entirely. But at least I can kinda-sorta rule out injectors as a problem. I'll try to rig something up for a compression-test tomorrow during the process of putting them back in, hopefully to rule that out, too. Also, I will take my best guess at checking the IP timing while I am at it...still waiting for the manual I found online to arrive. --Dave
I did compression-testing this AM. Since I don't own a kit for this yet, I had to make up a glow-plug-replacement bolt with a flare-fitting brazed into it, to connect a pressure-gauge, which in this case is an A/C gauge with an adjustable zero on a conveniently-long hose. I don't have anything to use for a check-valve on hand that I can think of, so I was simply staring at the gauge while cranking in order to observe the approximate peak psi, this being a relative test anyway. I don't have anything to compare this to, but my results seem way low: ~130psi on 1/2/3, ~140 on 4. Do I need to retest with better setup, eg a check-valve included somehow? I can't imagine that would make a huge difference. Can't find cyl compression specs (or much of anything at all) online for this engine...but getting a bit depressed about it now because this seems more like gasoline-engine compression test results. I did test each injector after cleaning them all yesterday - all produce similar spray pattern now, but that compression... --Dave
Don't get worried yet, that long hose is throwing your results way off. Use a short hose, or a check valve to let it build up pressure. One compression stroke doesn't have enough time to push the air all the way through that hose, that's my guess. It would be very odd for the results to be that low, but that uniform at the same time. Did you find any pics to compare the injector pattern to? Or were the streams uniform enough on each injector and compared to each other that they seem to be good? We didn't ask, but has the engine been turning over at a decent speed the whole time?
Thanks again Delmer... I can put the gauge right on the fitting, I suppose, but can't see it from that position. I keep wishing I had a remote-starter. Might have to drag the one I married out there... I did see some spray-patterns on Youtube videos that make me think mine are about normal, at least now that the gunk is gone, but maybe not as far off to begin with as I'd thought before. I'd thought injectors were capable of much finer atomization, but apparently not. They fire in what I think is a five-stream pattern spaced evenly around the circumference of the bubble, and with the 'jets' at various azimuths as you twirl the nozzle - probably pretty typical for this class (though completely different than those on my old Benz.) I've been doing a lot of guesswork since I'm in the dark as to specs - not just about the compression-testing. Reassembly torque for the injector bodies was one of those guesses. Since they'd "cracked" on disassembly, I was thinking I'd feel a hard "stop" on reassembly, but not so, and I quickly got into that "oh-crap-I'm-about-to-strip-this"-zone. Same for the injector retainers - they cracked loose, but seem to be daring me to strip them out on reinstallation. One of my glow-plugs is getting swollen, but they all glow relatively uniformly. How quickly will I regret not replacing that one, or all of them? Alright, back to it... --Dave
You do need a gauge with a check valve to get a good reading and definitely don't want to use a long hose. It will take about 4 good compression strokes to get a stable reading. A diesel will fire down to about 250 psi depending on intake temp. The minimum I would want to see is 300 psi. The injector spraying in a spider pattern says you're getting fuel and the pump is pressurizing it although you could have injector valves sticking open. Do the injectors drip a bunch after spraying or was it a sharp cut off of flow after the spray pattern? Are you seeing about 200 rpm while cranking or much less. Have you tried any starting fluid yet. That would tell you if you have a compression , cam timing or air supply problem. I wouldn't mind a "road trip " to look at it but I had my Hawaii trip this year already.
I'll buy you another ticket, Mobiltech... I should have known better than to use the hose, but hadn't really thought it through, and it seemed knee-jerk convenient so as to get myself near the starter-switch. Later I began to realize it's not only elasticity of the hose that's a problem, but it's like I added a bunch to the combustion-chamber volume, so it would really mess things up. When I reconnected the gauge with minimal fittings, directly to the glow-plug ports, having soldered a Schrader-valve into the inlet of the cobbled-up tester, I got much more encouraging results. Something like 380/360/360/390 psi, cranking maybe more than four cycles, probably not more than 8 - I just cranked until it had apparently maxed out. I've kept chargers on the two batteries (24V) to make sure they stay up, and it sounds like it always did when trying to start; it doesn't sound like it's dragging as long as I keep the chargers going. Injectors did NOT appear to do any post-spray dribbling. But now that you mention it, when should I start seeing diesel filling the return-branch daisy-chain? I put some of that transparent blue fuel hose in to replace the original 1993 stuff, and I noticed that no matter how much I cranked, I never got any diesel coming back through the returns from the injectors. Does that not happen at cranking speed, maybe? I then installed the cleaned-up injectors etc, bled all lines through to the injector nuts, and hoped for the best. And nada - zip - not even the ghostly wafting exhaust I had seen previously. I ended the day by hand-turning the engine to see if I could verify IP timing crudely - looking for a jet of fuel somewhere around #1TDC. I was checking TDC by using the glow-plugs as if 'corks,' loosely fitted into their ports, so as they hissed/popped up in the ignition sequence, I could anticipate when #1TDC was coming around again. Doing this, I passed TDC a number of times with no clear indication of any change in the 'lens' of diesel that was pooled in the top of the open injector port for #1. D'oh! I then realized that I'd wasted a lot of hand-cranking effort, since if the keyswitch is OFF, I should NOT get anything from that port. Sigh. I then cranked it a few times with the starter, again verifying that I saw a jet of fuel spurt up from the #1IP outlet, left the key on this time, and returned to manually rotating the engine. I finally got a little bubble coming up at about #1TDC - at least SOME indication of timing being correct - but never a distinct 'shot' of fuel. Should that happen at hand-cranking speed, too? (I figure if I need to do this method more precisely, I will have to make up some kind of barbed adapter to get me from the IP outlet to a small-diameter clear tubing, so I can better see the fuel moving through the tube). **Starting fluid isn't a no-no, then? Ether? (If it matters, it's not a turbo). Can I do that with the manifold NOT connected to the air-cleaner, maybe with an old sock or something over the intake as a catastrophe-preventer, just for testing period? Other than the starting-fluid, anything else to try? Cam timing would be OK based on my new compression-test results, right? Mahalo - Dave
Yes you can try starting fluid . You do not need a sock in the intake. Spray an atomized mist of starting fluid at the intake manifold inlet holding the can about 2 feet from the inlet while the engine is at a good cranking speed with the starter. You will probably want to put all the glow plugs and injectors in and have the engine ready to run for this because from what you've said so far it should start up briefly on starting fluid. If you feed it too much ether it will lock up but will start cranking again if you leave it sit for a while. Try to shoot the ether in short bursts, just enough to keep it running.
Thanks again for the confirmation - Gonna head out in search of the starting-fluid this AM. IIRC it can be hard to find here, like black ice and sleet, but I have seen it. (Why do some engines, eg the Cummins in my Dodge...I think...come with warranty-void-if-you-use-starting-fluid warnings? I'd gotten the idea that it was appropriate for gasoline engines, not diesel, but I'm not worried about any warranty anyway now, and it's obviously something you're accustomed to using.) So just to keep me thinking - let's say it springs to life briefly with controlled bursts of ether and dies out as soon as I stop providing it. Will that mean my IP is toast? Too soon to jump into another rabbit-hole? From my web-searches, I'd probably be looking to buy one from China - not unexpectedly, really; just seems they almost don't exist in the U S of A... Mahalo - Dave
If you do need a IP, you won't need a new one, just a good pump shop to do a overhaul on it. I'm sure the west coast has a good pump shop or two out there. Here I send stuff to Columbus Diesel Supply ,nice guys who will phone coach you if you ,and I have, get stuck.
Forgot to put this in my post sorry, but a rag wetted with gas makes a fair but somewhat hazardous substitute for a can of ether. Make sure to wear a glove.
Sorry I forgot to mention a very important thing. Unhook your glow plugs or disable them before shooting in the ether. That is the only reason they don't want you using it on some diesels. Here in Canada a lot of the heavy equipment has a can of ether in the cab for those cold starts. We seldom use it on a gas engine here. If it runs on ether then it's almost a sure bet you have a fuel delivery issue.
Thanks Mobiltech - I would have had those glow-plugs glowing, surely, during my planned test, but I do see that might lead to adventures in EMS. It was too rainy today to give anything a try, though - even the fire-dancer method (with the gas-soaked rag...) I don't know whether I'd be more worried about lighting myself on fire or getting the rag sucked into the valves that way - extra points for both... If the starting-fluid works, can't I just put a tank of ether on my machine and keep on diggin'? If it turns out to be my pump, I'm thinking it was water contamination that did it in. The fuel that I pushed out of the system to flush it, before connecting the temp tank (with new diesel), combined with what I poured out of the old fuel filter, is now nicely settled in a transparent square-edged cat-food bucket, and I can see a layer of rusty water beneath it all in the corner of the bucket - might be close to a cup of it below the fuel. Thanks all for the help thus far. --Dave
Good info repower guy - thanks for that. I wonder if they will recognize the pump ID if it comes to that. --Dave
CDS has'nt let me down yet, and Mark is a wealth of info. He can be hard to get to because he is the manager, but a great guy. I'm sure someone can chime in with someone closer than Ohio to you. There has to be good shops on the coast to keep loggers going, anyone have a guy [or gal] they use?
I'm sure someone can explain this. Thanks Mobiltech: the engine starts IMMEDIATELY with starting fluid, and this is a huge relief. The tiniest shot does it. And it KEEPS RUNNING (...and it's running /smoothly/ now, too!) So I thought "jeez...somehow that ether must have taken me over the hump, and now...er...everything is magically OK?..." But not quite: it won't restart without a shot of starting-fluid. So you're thinking, "it's your glow-plugs, ya moron...", right? This is getting to be a long thread, so you might be forgiven for not recalling that earlier, I cleaned, tested, and checked power to them. They glowed bright orange - all four at once - within a second or two of getting test-power. One was slightly swollen, but other than that, no obvious physical damage. So I reinstalled them. And I rechecked that they are really /getting/ power, just now, yet again. From testing this circuit, I found the glow-plugs get power ONLY when I'm holding the key all the way over in the 'cranking' position - not before, and not once it starts, of course. Is this not odd? My only other glow-plug diesel is my old Benz, and in that case, the driver is supposed to turn the key to the 'run' position, let it sit for a few moments while the glow-plugs get hot, and THEN crank. That makes sense to me. But then again, this machine has never been a problem to start until now, and I've never done any "holding" before starting, ever before on the CAT. So why won't it start without ether now? I've still got the air-filter housing out for clearance purposes, but I can't see that making much difference. I've also still got the 'for testing purposes' electric lift-pump installed, and it moves a lot more fuel than the mechanical, I think, but...that shouldn't matter, right? (I think I will go with a smaller electric in place of the mechanical one, once I get the other problems sorted out anyway.) I'm trying to think up a way to run temp power to the plugs manually (without starting a fire) a few seconds before cranking just to see if it starts that way, but like I said, I never had to do that before, so I don't get why that would make a difference now. What's the DEAL? Thanks - Dave
Usually these machines have a position on the key switch to the LEFT of off, you turn the key to the left, hold it for a time, or sometimes there's an indicator on the panel that will glow to tell you they're hot, then turn right to start and the glow plugs continue to heat while cranking. As to the problem starting without ether, there are several possibles, bad injectors, weak injector pump, low compression, but I am going to guess you got bad fuel that doesn't want to ignite as it should. Try draining the whole system and putting a few gallons of new fresh known good petro diesel in her and bleed it all one more time, see if that doesn't make her come to life like she should. Good luck!
Lantraxco - thanks for the possible ignition-switch glow-position thing - not sure I've ever tried that. But the thing is, the fuel *is* new petrodiesel, in a first-time-used temp 5-gal tank, with a first-time-used temp electric pump (all to eliminate the questionable stock mech lift pump), of course with new filter, and I flushed the hell out of the circuit before redirecting the return to the new tank. It's circulating fast - can't be a shortage of new/clean fuel at the IP inlet, surely. Once started it will run indefinitely without stopping - but I have to start it off with that shot of ether. No signs of stopping/stumbling until I switch it off. (The elec pump draws a lot for the alligator-jumper connections I have, so I don't want to burn them up - thus I stop it after a couple of minutes max.) I just cleaned & reassembled injectors (per previous posts) and compression is reasonably even and in the high 300s (also in previous posts). Anything else to check other than what you mentioned about a weak injector pump (and how is that checked?) --Dave
I would say weak injection pump. I have seen this before where there is not enough fuel being injected to start the engine but a shot of ether gets it going. Once it's running the pump is turning faster and can overcome internal leakage. The other option is that the rack in the ip is not moving freely into the full fuel position. If you do anything with the pump get the injectors tested too. If it was only a glow plug problem then it should start again after it's been running and the engine is hot. Can you check fuel supply pressure while it's running to verify the transfer pump is ok.
Mobiltech, Does this or any other diagnosis currently being floated square with the machine's having transitioned from "dependable-starter" to "can't start at all" in the space of a day? I will swap out my temp fuel-pressure gauge to get a more precise reading on the IP inlet - it was pegging a 10psi vac/pressure mechanic's gauge and I think threw it out of range. Is there a concern over too MUCH pressure from an electric lift pump? I'd tend to assume that this would all be handled by the return check-valve. I temporarily dropped an in-tank electric pump into my fuel can during this period, and it obviously moves a lot more fuel than I could need. Another item nags at me - the stop solenoid. I obviously need to replace mine - the boot tore long ago and it's getting pitted with rust, though it still moves. But my question is whether there's any "fine adjustment" to the lever these move. Is it a 'binary' on/off, with no in-between settings, or if the solenoid is dragging, can it subtly affect fuel delivery? Mahalo - Dave
The rain let up a little so I got back at this. The temp electric fuel pump was WAY too strong - once I got a larger pressure-gauge fitted to the IP inlet, I was stunned to see that it pegged the 60psi gauge easily; it was probably putting out well over 100psi. I pulled it off and re-rigged with a clicker-style pump, but that was on the opposite end of the spectrum - 3psi maybe - and the engine wouldn't start (even with ether - just coughed a little). I decided to revert to the mech pump after watching the flow from it & judging that it was at least working somewhat. That also meant going back to the bad-smelling biodiesel I recently put in the freshly-coated rebuilt tank, but at this point it didn't seem likely that I've really got any fuel-quality problems, so I tried it. As with the high-capacity electric pump, all it took was a shot of ether and the engine was off and running, and smoothly. I let it run for 15 minutes or longer, wanting to see the injector-return lines filling up, which they finally did. I shut it off, and immediately tried to restart - nothing. Is there a way for me to 100% test for/conclude this is indeed the "weak injection pump" as described before by lantraxco & Mobiltech? Nothing could be worse, in my mind now, than pulling it out, sending it somewhere for rebuild, spending a ton of money on a rebuild or new unit, then futzing with reinstallation for a week, only to still not get the engine to start normally. (Thinking about that scenario really does make me think I should plumb in an ether-injection port and move on...) You were right about this, though testing tells me that the plugs get timed power for but a second (max) when turning the key CCW. Hardly seems like that would be effective. If I can rig a high-current hot-lead to the injectors it will let me rule out any problem with them somehow not getting full voltage, etc. And wouldn't you know it: my starter-motor is sounding pretty pissed about all of this now. Mahalo - Dave
Rusty water in the fuel isn't enough??? At least this biodiesel is fresh, and there (hopefully) isn't any water in the tank. I would be watching the filter like a hawk, draining a little from the tank and filter before each start up if there are drains. You have the fuel pump back to stock, so start it up some morning when you have some work to do and run it long and hard. Don't worry about the glow plugs too much, if the ohms checked out, glow plug controllers can take temperature into account in determining how long the glow plugs stay on, assuming you're not at a high elevation, your temps don't need glow plugs.
Hey Delmer, Well, yeah, I *had* rusty water in the old-old fuel - but that was the stuff I flushed through like a week ago, before changing filters. So yes, if you mean there was potentially damage from that event, but no, there's negligible new- or residual water in the system, since it's essentially a new tank, new (though smelly) biodiesel, and a new filter. Drops of new water, perhaps, but no more. Hindsight - I've occasionally scouted ebay for a combination filter/bowl unit to retrofit these two machines, but never pulled the trigger, since I wanted a unit with a primer-pump as well, and they seem to be rare/foreign. Might have made a difference now... I'll take your suggestion about just using the machine, once the mud dries up a little from recent rains - that will give me some more data on actual performance vs just knowing that it will idle OK. --Dave
That mystery device from post #16 could be a temp sensor for the glow plug controller? maybe put a cool damp rag on it and see how it starts? Was going to say ice cube but you don't want to burn out the glow plugs. Half biodiesel/ half petro diesel and 10% ATF is what I'd run in it. Conventional wisdom is to keep the tank topped off every day so there's no room for air/condensation. That insures old fuel if the machine is seldom used... A much smaller plastic tank lets you use up the fuel quicker and still keep it full, but that's probably not of interest to you after the work you put into the original tank.
I think you should look closely at the fuel shutoff solenoid. Is yours connected to a lever on the side of the injection pump? I can't find you're exact serial number . I would unhook the shutoff and move the lever manually into the full fuel on position and try starting it there. Is this the shutoff you have on the right side of picture?
Mobiltech...I hope you're on to something. Yes, my solenoid is connected via rose-joint to a lever on the side of the IP. The lever has a LOT of potential travel. Solenoid moves only about...maybe 3/8" or so. It definitely STOPS the engine - then resets itself after a time-delay of a few seconds, to the ready-to-start position, or so it has seemed...but I was/am still concerned that it's not resetting itself to wherever it needs to be, in that range of travel. So I infer there's a range, and not just "go/no-go" to that stop-lever? "Full fuel on position" = as far towards the front of the engine (radiator) as possible, aka full CW rotation, then? If it matters, my solenoid isn't exactly like the one in your drawing, but similar. Just a couple of hours ago I started ebay-ing for a replacement, as a matter of fact, to cover all bases and because mine's pretty ugly, with a torn boot from biodiesel soaking. Mine is the one in the following link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/171353786548?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (though I'm trying to negotiate one that's about a third of this price and maybe identical...) BUT: I'm kinda hosed for a week, I suspect, since indeed, my starter is toast. It was making some awful noises, and I found on disassembly that the back bearing is well on its way to disintegration, and the gearbox is full of metal shavings. I will almost certainly order one and have to wait for it - gonna make some calls locally Tuesday, but the buy-local penalty for something like that is probably 300%. (Unless you/others suggest otherwise, I will probably post separately to ask about replacing my ring-gear - some pretty bad segments in the teeth - since this thread is longish already.)
I would just unhook the shutoff and move the lever on the pump all the way cw and see if it starts. Most shutoff levers move from stop to stop when operating properly .
If your shut off looks like this then it should pull in and turn the shaft ccw to run.
Hey Mobiltech, Since my solenoid (and starter) are now out, I substituted a test-light to verify the stop-solenoid action - I don't trust my recollection or tests from a few days ago. So: stop-solenoid gets power by timer, and ONLY for the 3 seconds or so after the keyswitch is returned to OFF. No power to it at any other time. Also, I got the best view I've ever had of it today by sticking a camera down in that tight space. I may have confused things before by making wrong assumptions about the shaft-rotation from the lever mounted on it being CW/CCW - but anyway, the photo makes it clear that the shaft gets pulled CW by the solenoid to STOP, and 'relaxes' (under internal spring) to RUN, in the CCW position: Also shown in the photo, though, there's about 10 degrees of 'snag' left in the shaft rotation, with the internal spring apparently not being strong enough to bring the shaft back fully CCW to hit the stop. I'd like to hang my hat on that being the lingering non-re-start problem, but I won't be able to test it until I get a new starter here... from Eastern Tennessee... I can manually twist the shaft back to hit the stop, but the internal spring doesn't seem to do it. Might just be a buildup of gunk? Would that be a clock-spring under the lever/cover on the end of that shaft? Do we think that's really the problem, or are these go/no-go components with no shades of gray, so my problem will persist? Wish I could test it now, but gotta wait for the new starter. If it's useful to know, the apparent p/n on the IP is ND-PES4A90D321RND459 (and more numbers...) --Dave
The arm does need to go all the way to the stop for proper starting. Sounds like a definite maybe.
My adventures in the gray areas of my gray-market machine resumed this week, with the arrival of the replacement starter. It went in easily & cranks like never before. But there was a sad lack of "AHA" in my resumed testing. With the solenoid out, and the IP stop-shaft manually twisted all the way CCW (on the stop), on my first trials, it coughed and the starter kicked out, as if it was short of fuel, but wanted to start. Pretty encouraging, and I was nearly ready to start chalking this all up to experience and think about actually digging up something (other than oddball metric wrenches). I went to starting fluid, and, spraying each trial, went through 4-5 longer 'bursts' of idling and subsequent die-out - it was now acting completely differently than before, when it would start and run forever, as long as it got that initial blast of ether. But I opened up the throttle a little, and that seemed to do it - it started and didn't stop, again after a shot of ether. WRT where I left off, I was able to verify manually that, if I twist the 'stop-shaft' on the IP very slowly CW, the engine does really go through some shades of gray before it dies - the RPM drops, then it sounds stumbly, finally it stops abruptly. I restarted it entirely without starting-fluid a few times thereafter, and told myself that I'd again been too paranoid, that I'd jumped to the doom-and-gloom conclusion that I'd messed up the IP - I mean, there it was, idling smoothly, on the biodiesel batch I'd got about six weeks back, restarting consistently without any ether. The other shoe: I cleaned up tools and thought I was about done for the day when I decided I'd better reposition the boom, which I'd left up overhead in the 'pirouette' position. (I'd always assumed it wasn't inclined to drop from that seemingly-stowed position, but for some reason during the weeks of working on the machine, it had indeed dropped, so I thought I'd best get it up again so it couldn't do any harm during its slow-motion descent.) And...***? I almost killed the motor just trying to get the boom back up. Really? Yep, behaved the same for every hydraulic movement. With my only thought then being that maybe that smelly batch of biodiesel WAS indeed poor-quality, & now might be responsible for the very low power...despite that it was idling very smoothly...I decided to reinstall the temporary petro-diesel tank setup with its independent pump and a new filter. I flushed out the system by directing the return into a catch-container for a while before returning it to the temp tank a minute or two after restarting the machine. Result? Exactly the same thing. Unless I am very light with the controls, I will kill the engine just moving the boom or stick around, on new petro or slightly-older biodiesel. (I've always run this machine on the same company's biodiesel.) So...is that a symptom of the IP being half-dead, as I'm again tending to assume, or am I still being too negative - is there anything else to try before I go down THAT expensive and open-ended rabbit-hole? Thanks for all the help, guys... Dave
Did you get a supply fuel pressure reading from it while it was running? I would say you are probably needing some injection pump work unless there is a low fuel pressure supply problem.
Hope you had better luck today, Dave.
Second all of that. If you find a spec for the fuel pressure and you have enough, then basically that eliminates all other problems besides the injection pump. Even a bad turbo wouldn't cause the engine to die like that, smoke and lug maybe but not die easily. (wouldn't hurt to measure your boost/vacuum nonetheless) If the hydraulic pump was overloading the engine then you should see some smoke out the exhaust as it dies. What does the exhaust look like when the engine is dying and below normal idle speed, but not quite on the last sputter? Before removing the injection pump for a rebuild, CLEAN THE SCREEN, then run it as described earlier. If the pump is gunked up then there's a possibility it will loosen up from use.
Well, there's still hope - in fact I think the culprit has been found, but I've said that before, so I should hold off and post after I've definitively solved this, but that might be a few days out. Thanks, Pixie Delmer & Mobiltech - yes, looks like you're both right about it being a fuel-pressure issue, but actually not on the pumping side. I'd already checked the lift-pump some time ago - had great volumes of gushing fuel from the mechanical pump, though it bothered me slightly that the operating psi recently seemed to be floating around 10psi, vs the 33psi I'd once recorded - but that was a few years ago and with a gauge that fluttered crazily, so I figured it had been a bad guesstimate. The 'overflow valve' was also something I'd been through very recently: the simple spring and ball-check valve built into the return-side banjo bolt. It was mucky when I cleaned it up a couple of weeks ago, with some rusty-greasy deposits having built up, but nothing that looked like a smoking gun. Taking the telephone advice of a diesel tech supe (Terry at Diamond Diesel in L.A. - very generous with the free tech advice, especially appreciated since the alternative might have been for me to jump the gun and pull the IP out to send to them for rebuild) I went back into that, just to see. And from SOMEWHERE, some curly, plasticky shavings - maybe bits of the banjo sealing washers, plus some clear coating that looked like the stuff used-car dealers spray on engines to make them look like they're new - had found their way right under the ball, after I'd cleaned it recently. I found I could blow through the thing the wrong way just with mouth-pressure, so it sure looks like a smoking gun. I checked it with compressed air after cleaning, and sure enough, it begins to relieve at about 35psi, so I suspect that I will have 30+ psi operating fuel pressure coming into the pump now, which I hope will make the difference. But first, I have to finish cleanup of the mech pump, which I decided to pull out and check, just because it's there and I'd not actually done it recently, and however hard it is to get it out, it's still easier than an IP R&R... I guess I didn't recognize this as potentially a fuel-starvation problem because my limited experience with the same problem (in a diesel pickup) 'feels' so much different. But when I think about it, is very much the same: I once limped the last 1/4 mile home in my Dodge (Cummins) with 5psi fuel pressure due to a clogged in-tank screen, as it would turn out...IIRC it wouldn't die, but it sure had a hard time with even the slightest hill. So I am totally ready to believe that 'moving the boom around' and dying is the equivalent symptom... --Dave
I've got nothing, again. I've never before spent so much time on a repair project with so little to show for it. Anyone got any basic checks I can do to verify that my governor is doing what it's supposed to do? I haven't disturbed it that I know of, but... ----------------------- Here's recent history: Yesterday I completely dis-assembled, cleaned and reassembled the mechanical pump. Didn't find anything notably wrong in the process, though I didn't like that most of the shiny chrome on the plunger cup had worn off. With the 'overflow valve' ball/spring just re-cleaned of the curly plasticky debris, per my last post, I reinstalled the mech pump, with my hope being that the IP inlet pressure would be substantially higher, now that the OEM mech pump is back in place (vs. the temporary much-lower-pressure clicker pump). I was expecting that the return-hose shouldn't be seeing such a free-flow, with pressure at the IP a lot higher now, eg 30psi. Nope. I could start the machine (usually takes ether now, unless restarting almost immediately after stopping) and it would keep running, with the FP gauge showing 0-10psi, fluttering presumably because of the mech pump's normal action. And the low-power problem persisted. I mentioned before that on this machine, there are three paths by which fuel gets into the return hose. I keep thinking that's one too many: 1) from the IP and out the banjo-bolt, via the built-in overflow valve - it should take about 35psi buildup to go this way, a function of the tiny spring's strength, assuming the ball is sealing (so that's the pressure I'd hoped to see anywhere upstream of that return bolt, eg within the IP supply gallery) 2) from the injector returns - flows freely into one (of two) branches on the banjo - standard stuff there, I believe, and there's no reverse-flow possible through the injectors. 3) from a mysterious hose coming from the outermost of two banjos, right on the filter outlet. I've never understood this hose's purpose, and it's actually NOT shown in the parts book, though it is obviously factory, since both banjo-ends are tailored to this. Why would we want to dump a major portion of the fuel we've just pumped through the filter back into the tank? The only thing slowing the fuel's return through (3) is that the drilling in the banjo-bolt is small, so there's some restriction - but there's no spring/ball to regulate it. So I simply clamped off that line to see what happens to the inlet pressure. No surprise, it rose. Initially, it rose to 30psi or so, which seemed about right, though puzzlingly, later, after I'd hunted down the right clamp for this, the pressure-rise was more like +10psi. BUT whatever - no change in the low-power problem: the engine would still die at the drop of a hat. Then I tried the same test on the main return hose, tightening a vise-grip on it until I saw about 35psi (it would go slightly higher, but I didn't want to completely stop the return, of course). Same deal - no noticeable improvement in power. With translucent polyurethane hoses now installed everywhere other than the tank lines, I can get a good sense of where air is and what's flowing, and there is a LOT of flow in that hose (3), but still, even defeating it doesn't change my basic problem with low power. I also swapped out the spring in that overflow valve (with something from my junk collection) to where I was getting a fluttery 30psi at low-ish RPM (and with that line 3 still clamped). With the RPM up at almost max, the PSI drops to the low 20s or so - and the machine has better power - but...it ain't the way it was a few weeks ago. And it usually takes ether to start now. Any ideas, observations, suggestions? Thanks - Dave
The 0-10 PSI doesn't sound good, but I don't know and can't find a spec... Did you find the SCREEN in the banjo bolt when you removed and cleaned the mechanical transfer/priming pump? if not was the bolt threaded on the inside with nothing in there? Does the engine smoke at all visibly when it stumbles under load? probably not because this sure sounds like a fuel issue, but that would further complicate things if it did. When you fixed the tank, did you check the pickup screen inside the tank? Or tee into the supply line right at the mechanical transfer pump with a vacuum pressure gauge and see how much vacuum it pulls when running/ stumbling under load. If there's not significant vacuum then that eliminates everything from there to the tank, and you can go back to figuring out the IP. OR, instead of a vacuum gauge, run that line into a temporary tank and see if the power improves. You say you have new polyurethane hoses, do you still have the old ones to check to see if there was some sort of orifice in one of them? It seems like there should be an orifice in line with the pressure relief valve line, so that the pressure rises with RPM, just a guess. Also, the rubber hose may be the only "pressure accumulator" that you have to smooth out the flow of the piston transfer pump. Any pictures of the plastic debris that you found in the overflow valve? Don't know how anything could get through the filters, unless it came out of something internal to the IP, don't know if there's any plastic in there or not.
Delmer, Thanks for the added suggestions etc. I was confused as to where my carefully-composed reply was, from a few days ago, and then I realized I must not have actually posted it - and then had to reboot - so it's lost. I don't have the heart to reproduce it, but in brief, to answer your questions - - I found & cleaned the screen, but it was still fairly unobstructed - I should mention it had trapped some ugly gritty rusty debris, so presumably finer versions of that stuff had been going through the pump, and probably taking the hard chrome off the plunger - No significant change in smoke when engine stumbles - No pickup screens were in original tank - After considering vacuum leak potential, I cut back the suspicious-looking tank-to-pump hose end (where band-clamps tend to dig in) but this made no difference, and as before, no bubbles visible in the rest of the lines (all transparent now) - Old lines are long gone - don't think I checked for any odd lodged components (but...that would be odd, wouldn't it? To install an orifice in a hose by friction-fit, a couple of inches in?) - No photos of the small curly black debris, but I think it's got to be shavings off of the ID of my polyethylene banjo-sealing washers...I can easily imagine some of this falling into the IP inlet from the seal on that banjo. Clear stuff was almost certainly some of the peeling clear engine-sealer that I think the auction-prep people spray on newly-pressure-washed engines to make them seem Brand New... --------------- I'm on the verge of 'outsourcing' repairs now, after yesterday spending a couple more hours re-connecting a temp tank (with petro-diesel), installing a higher-range pressure-gauge to better see fuel-pressure from the in-tank electric pump I'd reconfigured for this test, and entirely transparent lines. I left the mech pump recirculating the fuel from the stock tank, and flushed out the lines & switched to the previous new/drained fuel filter. Let no one believe an electric pump can't supply enough pressure or volume: this one is identical to the one I put in my Dodge pickup's tank about ten years back, and in this installation, even WITHOUT any clamping of that mystery line, and with the original (weaker) spring/ball overflow-valve assembly in place, the pressure in the pump inlet stabilizes at 65psi, with the return-flow hose into the temp tank resembling an exuberant drinking-fountain. The fuel clouds up briefly when I connect the pump, I think as the fuel in the filter is driven through the works. Lines jerk around from the pressure-change, and you can hear it singing through the smaller orifices. In short, there can be no shortage of fuel, nor air entering this test configuration. And yet, there is no difference in engine starting or power... One perplexing thing, though: after getting the above setup all ready and trying to start from cold, without ether, the first attempts resulted in coughing and other "about-to-start sounds," and encouraging puffs of smoke from the exhaust. But this rapidly diminished: by the time I'd gotten to the 4th or 5th attempt to start, and just a minute or two after beginning these attempts, there was NO visible smoke coming from the exhaust. If I saw that on a gas engine, I'd certainly think "lack of fuel or lack of spark." Here, I can only guess the IP's not doing what it needs to do, or (maybe) there's a timing problem? But seeing that the timing is by gear-engagement and not a chain (say), the idea that the "timing might have slipped" seems very remote. Another piece of evidence: when I cleaned up the injectors a couple of weeks back, I tested each (sort of) in turn by installing them one at a time to the #1 IP port, and then cranking the engine to see them spray. They all behaved much the same, though I had no baseline to know what I should expect to see - other than the notion that I would see a fine misty cloud of atomized fuel. I didn't see that. It was more like each sprayed out five evenly-spaced jets of fuel, without very much atomization. I posted something about this and it seemed like it wasn't a red flag, so I moved on. But just yesterday, I came across some Youtube clips of injectors being tested, and though none are built quite like the Mitsubishi ones, they all seem to atomize much more than mine do. Could just be that I was watching them in the full sun vs a shop-space, but this, too, has me thinking there's really an IP problem. If the rain lets up today, my plan is to pull injectors and take them to the one shop on the island and ask them to test them. If they're more or less OK, then I can't see anything else to do other than pull the IP...any other views on this?
Any progress to report? I didn't realize your electric pump was a diesel version, I was thinking of the smaller type I have laying around... The injectors aren't a bad next. The five streams out of the five nozzles is exactly what I'd expect, if the pattern is off that would affect starting, and would cause slightly different operating characteristics, but I can't see worn injectors causing the power to drop off under load like that. Does that injection pump have any hoses going to the intake manifold? My rough understanding of an inline pump like this (barring any connection to the intake manifold) is that the governor controls the fuel rack, which is essentially the "throttle shaft", it controls the amount of fuel injected, which is the ONLY control on a simple diesel. Your rack is not going to the max position, which it should do to start easiest, and for full power obviously. Either something is broken, clogged or gummed up, so either it has to come apart, or MAYBE you'd get lucky and it will free itself up, by running it (preferably with lots of slamming of the rack between min and max, with fresh biodiesel and/or acetone, ATF, etc) What do you have to lose? Also, I had downplayed the idea that the mysterious third fuel line was the problem, but I'd remove that unless I could find some verification of what it does and that it's hooked up right. With rubber hoses clamped to hose barbs like that, could somebody have accidentally switched the third hose with the intake to the transfer pump? so that the third was originally supposed to be another return, and the electric pump was there to manually prime the transfer pump?
Thanks for your tenacity, Delmer. Injectors are at the shop. Apparently their policy is to tell people how busy they are, vs making any projections as to when they will be done testing. It's the only game in town, but I'm not in a huge rush, obviously, so I'll deal with it. No hoses run to manifold from IP - in fact I think there are no holes in intake anywhere, other than for filtered air intake. I fully expect that before long, I will be pulling off the IP. Your description of the IP operation, though it may be rough as you describe, is still better than mine. The idea of something gunking up the works to the point where the governor can't do what it is supposed to do is interesting. Everyone seems vague on the details within the IP, perhaps because they're NOT all built the same, but I can definitely say that there's something keeping the "stop shaft" from returning fully to the factory start-position under built-in spring force. As I've written, I can twist it rather easily back to that CCW position by hand, but the built-in spring won't do it, not even if it's allowed to "snap back" that direction from being fully extended, as the solenoid releasing might normally do. But still, manually setting it back to the start position doesn't change the running problem. Depending on how that links to whatever it links to internally, I could see the possibility that it only appears to twist back to the stop when I do it manually - and the internal linkage is in reality not moving. If the mechanical governor is trying (but failing) to move the rack to increase fuel delivery, as it senses a drop in RPM, is there any externally-visible evidence of this? Regarding the shrouds of mystery around IP rebuilding: the thing that I keep wondering about is where the shops source parts from, or if for some reason there are not actually any wearing parts in them - just gunk and bad calibration, fixed by cleaning and expensive calibration machinery? Nobody's ever said "well, it depends how long it takes me to get the parts" (nor how MUCH it costs to get them) when I ask how long a rebuild would take. But for obvious reasons, they don't want me to bring them a basket-case, 'ready-to-assemble,' either, so I don't want to take it apart further than I can reassemble it... prior to bringing it in with a heavy sigh and planning to fork over $1K for the mystery-shrouded services of unknown duration. I'd at least like to see the linkage between the governor and the rack, to get a sense of how it's supposed to work. That 'third line' around the corner from the return port - when I had both banjos off with the bolts out, I squeezed a flashlight in near that passage - and saw lots of light coming through the "definitely-return" side, around the corner of the pump - so no doubt about them being essentially identical points in the pump. Since I could see no point in having the factory electric pump connected there, and wanted to do an empirical test of the ball/check valve in that bolt, I did what I think you're describing - pulled off the hose. While running, there was no leakage coming out with that banjo open, so I can only conclude that it's definitely set up to take in fuel there, and there's no way that anything was recently put together wrong in that vicinity. Still makes no sense to me, but I can't see it being a factor in the current problem - and I'd never rely on that electric pump to help prime things, now that I see how it's routed. I think it would be prudent to disable it, actually, or perhaps plumb it around the mech pump, but that opens other potential problems. The manual plunger-pump in the stock mech pump moves a lot of fuel quickly, so I don't see any real need for it to begin with, even if it were set up to help purge air from the filter. --Dave
Brief update - injector testing finally done, the shop called & reported opening pressures close to 2300lbs each, noting a lack of atomization, and saying that the factory spec calls for something like 2700lbs each. Said they'd lap the needles to the seats in the nozzles (or something like that) so as to improve the atomization if need be, though he sounded iffy on whether this would work, and get the pressure back up to spec. Cost will be $87 to $132 each...no guarantee that's gonna get the engine going, of course, and I have my doubts, but I guess this is still the place to start vs pulling the IP, so I told them to go ahead. I'm probably now committed to them for this work (though as usual, he told me it might take forever to get it done) but generally like to DIY as much as I can. So for next time, if I were armed with a pop-tester, would this lapping be an intuitive process, or only for a skilled pro? --Dave
Injectors, rebuilt, are back from shop this time - I installed them yesterday, and had exactly the same symptoms as before. That wasn't at all a surprise, really... an inevitable, costly part of escalation in repair attacks? I set about this morning removing the IP. This was much more frustrating than even I imagined - and I had been /expecting/ removal to be a bitch. The IP now flops around, four nuts at the mounting flange removed, plus the bracket at the rear end together with two securing bolts and one pivot-point nut. Oil feeder line is also off & loose. I can support the IP & twist it easily through its adjustment range, but I can't get more than about a 1/8" gap at the mounting flange. I was hoping that the Japanese-annotated parts drawing I have (and that's ALL I have) wasn't really indicating this, but it indeed moves/feels as if there's a nut that engages shaft (ID number 31 in the drawing) that will need to be released from the other side of the drive-gear, to allow the IP to be fully removed. But there's no way to get to the threads, if that's what they are, without starting by removing the radiator, then the water-pump, then the timing-cover. View attachment 134481 View attachment 134481 Is that typical? If so, I may instead opt to pull the engine, since I'd also like to replace the ring-gear, and then I'd also have the relative luxury of reinstalling the IP with a view from more than the top only...
This engine is similar to what was used in the Cat 307 I would assume. If you have access to cats online parts system, go there and see if you can find a parts blow up. I used to own a 94 307, it was a 2PMxxx, try looking at that. I had a shop manual, but gave it to the new owner.
Did you remove the two little bolts (#20) and that "tappet cover" to see if there's anything obviously wrong in there. Causing the rack to hang up, nothing to do with removing the pump. You have nothing to lose at this point, that's just a cover not a precision part.
Delmer - I took your suggestion but saw nothing amiss in there. Bigbob - no, not similar to anything domestic, I am afraid. The 4D32 engine wasn't ever imported, though it was popular in Asia and there are lots of parts there for it. I had time/weather to take the pump out. Turned out there's something like a small bell-housing that covers the drive-gear and hold the bearing for the pump-drive, so I didn't have to go through the total madness of pulling the crank end and timing-cover entirely off - though I might still have to do so. Is that ever normal? I say "might" because after the IP came out, I immediately wondered about reference marks. There's one tooth on the IP driven-gear that's got a clear white mark, but to see where it mates to the driving gear, I almost certainly would actually have to take off the whole timing-cover. Why? Well, assuming there's a corresponding white paint-mark on the driving gear, it would be on the front (not visible) side from where I've extracted the pump. A mirror might help me see, if there's room, but the notion of being "one tooth off" will haunt me. To the small extent that I dared, I opened the IP up on the bench - I don't want to **** off the one rebuilding shop option here by tearing it all down, and that would surely cost me a lot more in the end - and I didn't see anything that drew my untrained eyes as a possible smoking gun. The rack and governor components that I can scarcely see through a 1" inspection port look clean, and there's nothing rattling around in there. I was surprised at how much the rack moves when I pull on the STOP shaft, but that'd be moving in the "less fuel" direction when I do so, I would expect. I couldn't get a sense of how it moves to richen the mix; I suppose that would take some means of spinning the drive/governor, but my problem seemed to be a lack of response to engine loading & the engine quitting very easily. When the shop opens again next week, I will be getting it in to them - unless anyone's got any hail-Marys before I plunk down $1K or so for a possibly-silly rebuild. Thanks all - Dave
No real news, but a followup question: Though my injection pump has been sitting in his shop in line for more than a week, the one-and-only local IP rebuilder says he's feeling leery of rebuilding, charging me $1K, and me having the same problem as ever (and then coming back to him with complaints). Well yeah, that's what I said a couple of months ago, right? He explained that he's got a particular customer right now that's just been through this and isn't happy, so he's now more concerned that this not happen immediately again. Thus, he started asking about the basics, wanting, understandably, that I waive any right to complain later if the same problem persists, so that I have to feel confident that everything has been checked OTHER than the IP. Compression was in the range of 360-390 across cyls 1-4 - don't have any specs, but no one here said that sounded too low. Other than that and fuel quality concerns (I'm confident there), it was all about lift-pump pressure, and overflow-valve problems. He cited the specified overflow-valve pressure, down to the one-hundredth of a psi , saying if it's not right, well, the IP might not work right. And I'm thinking...***? So, 36.97psi = good, but 65psi (eg what I gauged with a temp substitute electric pump) is NO good? And 33psi, as I had previously with the mechanical pump, was also no good? Jeez, the lift-pump piston movements alone probably make the pressure fluctuate continuously by 20psi, so it's hard to imagine the consistency of the supplied-fuel pressure really being THAT critical. Anyone know otherwise? Again, to recap, engine runs smoothly through full RPM range, but has very little power - dies easily on loading with any typical machine use, like raising the boom. So far, it's had new filter new fuel new hoses substitute lift-pump swapped in, an in-tank electric pump within an external fuel tank, provides 65psi with high volume flowing through return artificially increased the overflow fuel pressure by replacing the spring with a longer one rebuilt and recalibrated injectors ensured that stop-lever is returning to home ...all resulted in the same impaired restarting (usually needs ether) and the same poor power after starting. --Dave
Not much to say at this point. You're not really going to put the pump back on and continue troubleshooting are you? Can he put the pump on the "test stand" or whatever they call the callibration setup, and check it? The lift pump and overflow valve are still on the pump right, so he should be able to see what it's doing. I don't know exactly what's inside the pump, but I couldn't see 33 psi causing these issues. 65 or 10 that you mentioned a few times maybe. Since you had the overflow valve plug up before that's a suspect, and easy to check, but where did that junk come from? Can't remember if this has come up? the mysterious third line to the electric priming pump hooked up backwards would pump dirt, but if it sucked air from the pump it would prime the pump I'd think. Depends on what type of pump whether it was designed to pump air. I wonder if your pump guy has any opinion on this mystery? It's really hard to come up with anything outside the pump that would cause hard starting in your temps, but what elevation is the machine at? The only thing I can think of to check before going ahead with the rebuild, if you haven't already, is the intake and exhaust. Maybe pull the valve cover to check for some valves stuck closed from sitting, but you said it idles smooth. Before you turn the engine be sure you won't disrupt the timing of the rest of the gears, I don't know what runs what up front.
Hi guys, I just ran across this thread.. The spec on the OV Flow vlv is 1.5 bar.. but 25-30 psi is acceptable.. anything more is going to give you major hard start conditions.. especialy w/ a worn out lift pump. I only read pgs. 5&6 and noticed you said the chrome was worn off the lift pump piston.. if its grey and has score marks on it, its worn. The lift pump "probably" isn't your entire problem tho.. Its just a GOOD indicator how far the contamination has gotten.. I'll bet the pumping plungers inside the pump are worn out..which means pump removal.. A "good" pump tech could remove a delivery valve holder [on top of the pump], look at the delivery valve collar and tell you in 10 minutes if the pump needs to come apart.. OR just put it on the test bench and check the calibration.. {Delmers suggestion] One other thing to try is >> I didn't read the entire thread so I don't know if it had been tried.. Disconnect the linkage from the throttle, screw in 2- 6x1mm screws in the holes and use a screwdriver for leverage and work the throttle "by hand" to see if your getting "FULL THROTTLE" movement.. Good luck.. TPG
TPG, thanks for the expert advice. Have you seen anything like the electric pump described on the first page that pumps unfiltered fuel from the bottom of the tank into the "return" port on the injection pump, with a manual "gas pump" switch in the cab?
Thanks Delmer and 'TPG' for joining my tedious and unending saga. This morning I noticed that the excavator literally has some vines growing up onto the boom... Delmer, to answer your questions - - yeah, no way in hell I'm putting that pump back in without SOME kind of shop work first...I almost don't care if it's a waste of money, but don't really believe it is, anyway. Test-stand issues are explained below. - I had the overflow valve/spring out repeatedly after the bits of plasticky stuff were found in there, and never had a recurrence of debris - 'new shop' (see below) also is baffled by the extra port and pump hookup, though they've only heard my description, not seen it on the IP yet, if that matters. I'd really like to figure out some way that the electric pump was installed backwards, such that it was intended to draw from the return-port and thus somehow pull all the air through the filter and high-points after an out-of-fuel experience, but (a) I can't see any physical way the pump could have been reversed at some point owing to the physical situation where it's mounted - for one thing, the OEM ground-wire wouldn't reach if it were installed the other way), and (b) I don't think any designer would expect a clicker-pump to effectively pull air through the system, vs pushing it. Whatever the case - does anyone know what would happen from my having unsuspectingly operated that electric pump occasionally - that is, pumping nasty crap into the IP RETURN port? (How far can the fuel get when being pushed the wrong direction?) It's academic, though - that pump will not be a part of the system once I reinstall the IP. - Elevation...maybe 200' above sea level, so no problem there, unless it's too much salt in the air-fuel ratio... TPG - glad to have your input on this, too. Can you please clarify "...The spec on the OV Flow vlv is 1.5 bar.. but 25-30 psi is acceptable.. anything more is going to give you major hard start conditions.. especialy w/ a worn out lift pump..." 1) Is that Denso's typical overflow-valve operating pressure, or specific to my IP? (I hadda look up 1.5 bar = ~22psi.) 2) Did you mean "anything LESS is going to give you major hard-start conditions..."? The worn lift-pump would, of course, give us less pressure, not more, and the lift pump is the source of the pressure to begin with, so I don't understand how we'd be talking about more pressure from it, vs. less...unless you're referring to the temp. electric pump I installed, but that wouldn't involve the worn mech pump to begin with. Anyway, maybe you can explain - really, I'd just like to know if the temp in-tank electric I was using to swap over to a different (new diesel) fuel supply - giving 65PSI inlet pressure - was actually not a good test. I've gotten the impression from experience and reading in various forums that many people have replaced their stock mech lift-pumps with higher volume/pressure electric pumps with generally good results - I did so on my Dodge pickup, for example, and it's never given me a problem... 3) As my former-would-be-IP-rebuilder complained to me (below), the interior passages of the IP fuel-intake are clearly somewhat stained, unquestionably with a rusty tone, so your comment about the plungers makes sense to me. ------------------ A few days back I talked with Terry at Diamond Diesel in Oakland, CA again - he's been very generous with phone-time during my diagnostic flailings, and actually it was he who recommended I should take it to the one-and-only local shop, whom he knows somewhat from various phone contacts and tech consultations, to get that elusive calibration check. And that was the first of maybe four times that the topic of 'checking calibration' came up between me and the local shop owner. He steadfastly refused, saying that he'd only be willing to do this on a factory-warranted pump or something brand new, the idea being that his test-stand cost like $800M, and that he would run afoul of his own test-stand's warranty concerns if he introduced some 'unknown' into the fluid reserve. I let it go at that, having no other local option; two weeks back I just asked him to rebuild the damned thing, since it seemed the consensus was that there was nothing left to have gone wrong - I'd already paid him to recalibrate my injectors, and that had made no difference. I brought it down to his shop and left it to 'stand in line,' but I had forgotten to bring the lift pump with me. Told him I'd get that to him whenever he needed it, and asked him to let me know when...and didn't hear back from him. Every time I talked to the owner - and I mean every time - even though I'd never once indicated I was in a rush, and often said I had no problem waiting - he'd go out of his way to tell me how busy his shop was, how he's got this or that emergency job coming in, always trailing off into the implication that I'd better get comfy since my little problem wasn't a big deal - which it ISN'T - so why keep telling me about how busy he is? That got to be a little annoying, along with the regularly-volunteered "I've been in this business for X years" pitch, again coming out of nowhere, as if I'd been arguing with him. OK, I could overlook those odd exchanges...but his citation of the inlet pressure down to the one-hundredth of a psi, saying that if it's not right, well, that's why my engine won't run, so why not go get myself a new spring and ball and spend the weekend reinstalling it first? Well, we'd been through that already, and it sounded to me like a guy that relies on a spec book too much. So maybe other people DO argue with him a lot? Mid this last week, I tried to talk to him a couple of times about when he'd need my missing lift pump delivered, so I could try to work that in to my sneak-away-from-work schedule. Aburptly he sounded skittish, like he didn't want to work on the pump at all, based on not knowing whether it was really an IP problem, or something else I'd missed during my long process of diagnosis, chronicled here. His sudden cold feet, he said, came from less-than-good experiences with two customers in recent days. I get where he was coming from, but I thought his response to them was odd, and probably not the whole story. One of them was upset enough about having the same symptoms persisting , after an expensive IP rebuild, that (reading between the lines) he was suing or doing something along those lines to recoup or at least clearly register his discontent with the shop - seemed like more than he should be worrying about as the IP rebuilder. Another had symptoms similar to mine, was about to send the IP to him for rebuild, then changed his mind and ordered an overflow valve, later indicating that was the problem. If I were in his position, I'd leave this conversation to a disclaimer that I'd have my customers sign, indicating that I could not be responsible for missed diagnosis of problems outside of the IP itself. Odd that he wasn't afraid I would come after him when the rebuilt injectors hadn't cured all ills. Anyway, he ended up saying he was going to talk to Terry again the next morning and that during that conversation he'd confirm something to do with my IP...and that maybe I'd like to send it to Terry to do this cal check. At that point, sending the pump to California sounded like an excellent idea. The next day I'd heard no news from my local guy, so I called Terry in California to fill him in. When I told Terry of the recent developments and that the local shop continued to balk at the idea of putting it on his test stand, I could hear him rolling his eyes. He explained that even if fluid-contamination were a concern (which he doesn't consider to be the case), he could just flush the pump while on the test-stand. He invited me to send him the pump as we'd once discussed, about a month ago... I retrieved the pump, boxed it up and mailed it to California yesterday. Fingers are crossed, but I'm not sure for what...I think I WANT them to confirm my pump innards look like they got a little too much roughage in their diet, so I can fork over my money and finally move on with this.
A worn lift pump wont pump enough pressure to fill the fuel gallery and open the overflow vlv. Same goes for a "HI pressure" opening spring IN A ovfl. vlv.. Lets say in your case w/ the cummins engine you were actually fighting a weak/broken overflow valve.. and you installed a "hi pressure" electric lift pump.. the volume of fuel your would be pumping into the fuel gallery would compensate for the broken / weak ov flo spring.. I takes about 3 minute to flush out an inline pump of contaminants OFF the test bench with no worries of contaminating the calibration fluid.. {what an ass** It "sounds to me" like the tech didn't have the experience to work on your pump?? As far as rebuilding the lift pump, it takes about 15-30 minutes, start to finish.. I do them while the customer waits, or goes and grabs a quick bite to eat.. OR it may be a parts problem.. you ARE on an island..LOL Keep us posted as to what the shop in Cali says.. anybody wanna bet> worn P&B's.??
Thanks, TPG. Will definitely keep this updated. Every story has an end, right? As to local shop, it does seem hard for me to believe in the dude really having his regularly-cited multiple decades of experience, though I'm certainly not an expert. I went through a brief phase during this epic when I'd figured on finding a complete new replacement IP from China, where I think Denso manufactures them, but really, even with all ID numbers and many different attempts at searching, I never found anything that promised to be even close. My guess is that the pumps are manufactured with so many subtle variations for different end-users that there just isn't a shelf somewhere with boxed new pumps that would drop into my machine. Is that accurate? OTOH it also struck me that in all that googling, I never came across repair-parts items, either. Where do your basic repair parts COME from? I was kind of amazed that the local shop guy didn't seem to have any worries about getting needed parts. --Dave
Your CORRECT on the "boxed-up" pump senerio.. Its been my experience that its almost impossible to get one.. EVEN THO they list them in their "price book".. The parts break down and information is "proprietary" and you have to BUY the rights to use the info.. parts list and break downs.. ANY DENSO DEALER has this info and parts are available thru THEIR central distributor or direct from Denso.. formally Nippondenso...
I got 'the call' from the California shop mid-day. TPG, I can't recall all the terms used in the tech rundown, but bottom line was that it was ugly...I recall that, from his calibration test, the volume test came up about half of what it should have, and that internal timing was shifted something on the order of 1.7 degrees, when the specs call for about a tenth of that. Governor was OK, speed could only get up to 1700 vs 1800rpm per spec, if that matters. In short, a rebuild was indicated... It's going to hurt. Local shop had quoted me something in the $900 range, though I don't know what that would have been based on, since it was sight-unseen. Should this be a flat-rate charge based on book labor hours plus parts? And are all the parts he said would need to be replaced typically replaced anyway, as in the case of, say, a carb overhaul? So with $900-ish in mind and about what I was psychologically prepared for, when the Cali shop quoted "about $2000," it was a bit saddening. I told him about the cost discrepancy, and he speculated maybe it was a labor-rate difference, saying he gets $120/hour. I'm pretty sure I don't want to go back to the local shop anyway, but it's hard to ignore that 2x cost difference. The $2K is also just a ballpark, since it's based on actual labor hours, but I don't think that means it's going to be surprisingly LESS... TPG, any input on that? Sound like SOP, or should I be alarmed? --Dave
Every shop has a manuf. "book time" for an overhaul.. THAT PUMP'S BOOK TIME is 6-8 hrs.. + PARTS.. Seeing it produced 1/2 of fuel delivery, it means the pumping plungers inside the pump, commonly refered to as P&B's.. where extremely worn.. they cost in the neighborhood of 100.00 + each.. With worn p&b's, comes worn out delivery valves.. around 100.00 each.. Then comes the gasket kits, 3 of them.. pump, governor, and supply pump.. which aren't cheap either.. Then there's the overflow valve which wont be deemed acceptable until its on the teststand.. And lets not forget about the shipping and the insurance their going to put on the returned package.. 2k is ballpark worst case senerio in my neck of the world.. I think your LOCAL SHOP was quoting you labor hrs only and then you would have gotten "the real cost" after the tear down and inspection.. Its up to you how you proceed but its not unreasonable.. Another thing to think about too is.. they may have charged you for a calibration check ON TOP of the overhaul quote, which is about 4 hrs labor.. Like I said, 2k isn't unreasonable.. shocking, I know, but still not unreasonable, given the p&b's and del. valves are worn beyond reuse.. Good luck and sorry for your troubles.. IF I was able.. I'd help, but this back surgery has got me flat for months.. TPG
TPG, Thanks for the input, so I don't feel too much like I'm 'being took.' No new word from the shop in Cali. I can see I am going to have to adapt my fueling habits to be more conservative/appropriate to my 'occasional-use' tradition. Terry didn't impugn biodiesel, which I was happy about, since I have relied on it for a decade to avoid any complaints from neighbors about diesel exhaust, but he was attempting to set me on to a new course of thinking in terms of fuel longevity. I'd tended to conveniently assume that if I keep up with filter-changes, and the machine still starts and runs, I needn't worry. But biodiesel is better at concealing water than petrodiesel, so it's possible (likely, even) that I've had a lot of wet fuel going through, coming from condensation cycles in the tank. It's also only relatively recently that people began to notice that biodiesel oxidizes (particularly in bare-steel tanks, like I had before reworking mine) and leaves a polymer goo (some call it chicken-skin) that builds up on the metal surfaces in particular, and much more quickly when it's exposed to air. Well, my return-line spills fuel from the top of my tank like a waterfall - I couldn't do more to expose that fuel to air if I WANTED it to be - so even that's a problem. A bladder-tank that could be kept mostly free of air would be awesome, but I have yet to find anyone willing to make one smaller than for their typical large-scale military customers. I'm thinking along the lines of emptying the stock tank and keeping it dry until I've got a daily-use project of some kind, and rigging up maybe a 5-gal portable tank with some QD couplers on it, so I can, with relative ease, dump that fuel batch into my truck (where it will get burned much sooner), and swap it out for fresh fuel when I get back to excavating something. I'll have to read up to see whether any fuel stabilizers work on biodiesel but it wouldn't surprise me if they don't. I'm a bit worried now about what I might have done to my loader, which gets the same sporadic use (I've been 'abusing it' for several years longer than the excavator, if that's what I've been doing). It's got a different (Isuzu TD) engine with a rotary IP design, and with a tank that would be an absolute NIGHTMARE to remove and clean. Maybe I need to abandon that tank in place...fill it with concrete...LMK if you've got suggestions so I don't end up another $2K in the hole soon. --Dave
Keep the tank chuck full and make sure the cap seals, once the available air at the top of the tank has given up it's available moisture, and oxygen, that's all there is. I like your idea of dumping the fuel and running it through your vehicle, but I would do that just BEFORE starting up the excavator, fill it with clean fuel and any biocide fuel additive before starting, and then when done working top it well up with clean fuel again to minimize both condensation and oxidation. You never want an empty tank full of air.
A plastic outboard motor tank, and a 2 1/2 gallon plastic hand garden sprayer tank are two options. Even with dino diesel machines aren't designed for occasional use because nobody buys a NEW machine to use for a couple hours once a month. Keeping a tank full just guarantees that you have lots of aged fuel if you're not emptying it regularly.
Delmer, I guess what Lantraxco is saying is the fuel essentially won't "age," as you put it, if it's kept from oxidizing...I want to believe, and I kinda do, because I can think of lots of petroleum distillates that I'd not think twice about using even if they were a decade old - eg a new, sealed container of mineral spirits, kerosene, naptha... I don't know if the same applies to biodiesel but I will be doing some googling to see if there's any consensus on that. In my case, it's a PITA to get biodiesel and it's expensive, so I hate the idea of "keeping it around," whether in a full-to-brim tank or in the inevitable part-full bucket or two, but anything's better than having the machine down for months on end and spending upwards (probably) of $2K to get the IP rebuilt. Hmmm...wondering about a low-pressure nitrogen-charging system for my tanks now...
Pants, Well, fuel does age, it just does it slower in a sealed container. Distallates are usually a pure substance, or mix of pure liquids, whereas it seems pretty much any liquid fuel these days is a homogenized mix of liquids and compounds, and in the case of diesel, wither bio, dino, or a mix, includes living organisms that survive all processes. That's why many diesel additives are referred to as "Biocides" because they limit growth of living organisms in the mix. Along with oxidation and biological activity, modern blended fuels may "unblend" or separate in the tank over time. All things being equal, if you could empty your tank after each use, ensure it was sealed, dry, and never rusted inside, that would be the way to go, but that's kinda hard to do unless you pressurize it slightly with dry nitrogen or something and purge all the air. Second best is to keep the tank as full as possible, limiting the air space at the top and making sure the cap is sealed and has a closed venting system, in other words it take a bit of pressure or vacuum for the cap vent to open up to air movement. Sorry, I do tend to run on.....
The long gap since I last posted had me not only having the IP rebuilt (not much less than $2K, but certainly necessary, as it turned out), and "while I was at it," pulling the engine to replace the ring-gear, which led to discovery of some alarming rust on the framing that supports all the engine cover-panels, thus leading to seemingly-endless rust-excision, sandblasting, epoxy coating, yada-yada-yada. Happily, I'm within a few days, maybe, of starting the engine again after all of that, once I'm done with a fairly short checklist. Reinstallation of all the shroud/sheetmetal components will wait until that milestone is achieved. My biggest concern - and reason for posting at this point - is the hydraulic tank interior. I peered into the tank's filler port with a bright flashlight, and was surprised to see - though this may be a common design, I just don't know - filters on both inlet AND outlet. That's great, and maybe that means it's *OK* if the tank looks less than clean...which it did. I hated that I could see that gritty-looking rusty stuff lying around in the residual fluid, here and there in the low spots, and what looked like some bubbly rust spots, too. I couldn't detect any residual water in the tank, but I suspect that at some point there must have been some, probably...condensation?...during one of the machine's long periods of disuse, maybe forming small rust-pockets at the bottom of the tank? I'd really hoped to see a pristine tank with no nasty debris in it, but then again, maybe it's expected that this stuff will form - and that's why there's a filter-in/filter-out design? Help me out here... Is this typical? Cause for alarm, further disassembly, etc? Is there some kind of water-blocking/absorbing accessory that might be advisable here? Pulling the hydraulic tank out to clean/coat etc would be a whole different epic, but if it's important to do that for more than just aesthetic reasons, I want to know. On a perhaps-related note, I'm posting the attached photo of a...mystery device that sits above a pilot-controls connection block of some kind. Again, maybe this is easily-recognizable to some of the career hydraulics people here. Looks like some kind of...vent? What might this item be? If exposed to rain, as it has been for a while now, is it possible for water to infiltrate? Thanks - Dave
Regarding your hydraulic tank, does it look something like this..? If so Ref #2 is a suction screen (much coarser than a filter, only designed to keep large lumps from being sucked into the pump) and #6 is the filter which is accessible from the top. Don't forget to replace the o-ring for the cover when replacing the filter. The suction screen you should be able to remove and clean, the filter would be junked and replaced. In the absence of photos but based on your description I would suggest draining & flushing the tank to get it clean, clean the suction screen and replace the filter.
Nige, When it's light (and not raining?) I will see if I can get enough light into the tank to shoot a photo. My view wasn't good, but it looked like much the same construction as the top filter, only shorter in stature, with the same spring & top-hold-down type affair as seen on the top filter. Bottom filter/screen arrangement does indeed look like what you showed (item 2). Confused, though: if you're right, then the concept should have been to keep the tank interior pristine by filtering out the dirt/debris before it gets in there, so why any coarse screen would then be needed in advance of the outlet eludes me. If I were to unbolt & drop out that bottom 6-bolt flange, the screen or filter would come out from underneath, but that would not be as simple as it sounds with the machine stuck in this position. I'd do it if it's important, though. But then, I'd have to...what, solvent-spray to get stuff to flow out the open bottom hole, I guess? It's way more than an arms-length, but maybe I could half-assed swab it out or something? More tomorrow - thanks for your input. --Dave
According to what I can see from the service manual the screen comes out from the top. Remove the cover #4 and the screen is attached to a long rod that you use to pull it up out of the tank from the top. The filter is under the other cover (RH Side of top illustration).
The hydraulic return filter has a bypass valve (item 7 in Nige's illustration). If the filter becomes blocked, this will open allowing unfiltered oil to enter the tank. Your suction screen them becomes the second line of defence against big lumps of debris smoking the pump. On the subject of rust in the tank, is it typical? On a modern, well maintained machine, no. Is it desirable? Again, no. Is it the end of the world? No. I would suggest clean it out to the best of your ability, check/replace the tank breather (if it has one) and, if possible, each time you run the machine, get it good and hot. Regarding your mystery object, that is an accumulator for the pilot system. To test it, raise the boom, stop the engine, keep the safety lever raised, turn on the ignition and see if you can lower the boom. If you can, the accumulator is OK. If you can't, don't sweat it. It's just there to get limited hydraulic movement in case of engine failure.
CM, the tank doesn't have a breather, it has a pressurized cap (Ref #5) and an overflow tube a bit like a radiator. I think I'd replace that cap if the machine has no prior service history indicating when it was last changed. It must work on a flooded suction to the pump assisted with a bit of pressure in the tank to prevent pump cavitation. Here are diagrams of the accumulator and the tank screen. If you remove the screen for any reason examine the O-Ring Ref #6 closely and replace if it's damaged or brittle. To the OP - If you want any service information regarding the hydraulic tank (or anything else for that matter) drop me a PM with your email address and details of what information you're looking for.
Nige, PM will soon follow - many thanks. I have a lot of Japanese info on this machine (parts book & what I guess is a maintenance manual of about 1/2" thick - not exhaustive and well-stained from prior user). I guess/hope you've got some kind of English-friendly tech detail treasure-trove for the 307SSR (that I've needed badly many times!) But - I took it that the tank drawings you put up before are generic to a certain type of system, not specific to my machine, because they're not /exactly/ what I've got. Still, yes, indeed, mine has a very-radiator-pressure-cap-looking-opening on the side, with overflow tube. But access to the bottom filter must be only from below, I think, for a couple of reasons. One - though my Japanese isn't any better than it was when I bought the machine - the scan attached shows the screen/filter & heavy flange being dropped away from the bottom of the tank. Two, I can't see any more merciful way to access it from above, since there's no opening in the top of the tank that's big enough. Yes, there's another big flanged/bolted-cover affair topside, but inside that, it's got what I'm pretty sure is a completely un-removable continuous solid filter-shaped recess/well (welded in place) with only smallish hole in the center, to allow the filtered intake fluid to drop into the tank proper. (It started raining on me before I could get back into that to be sure I'd not missed some potential means of lifting out the 'well', but I will check again before I go through the pain of getting into the bottom flange.) Point taken on the o-ring replacement. It struck me odd that there was none on the intake filter - it was just metal-to-metal. No sign of ANY dirt/debris around the intake surfaces, either, suggesting to me that all that crud in the bottom of the tank started life right there in the tank. Cmark - thanks for the perspective on that crud in the tank; I will probably get into it to do what I can to mop things up and maybe better assess the rust conditions. Accumulator makes sense - so it's got a bladder of some kind, and that's why it's got the 'vented'-looking domed top? Thanks again - Dave
Further inspection during better conditions revealed to me that the upper 1/4 or so of the hydraulic tank has a sort of irregular scummy-rusty look/feel to it, and I think the gritty stuff at bottom simply fell away from above. Clearly it's had some water in it, but I've no idea from where, since I gather the only vent is for pressure, not vacuum. Is this expected for a high-humidity working environment? Is there any remedy for this so I don't simply proceed in this slow race between 'grit in the fluid' and 'rust holes in the tank' in the coroner's report for my poor machine? On the simple end: maybe a dryer of some kind? On the PITA end: do some tanks come epoxy-coated, or some such? Thanks - Dave
I suspect what has happened in your high-humidity environment (we had the same experience with hydraulic tanks in the Caribbean) is that moisture gets sucked into the air above the oil in the tank every time the machine cools down after working and the damp in the atmosphere causes rust inside the tank above the oil level. By now you oil will be pretty well contaminated with water although it won't be visible to the naked eye. The best thing to do is daring the oil, clean the "rust" spots above the waterline as best you can and then use something like Willie59's suck bucket (search for it on HEF) to remove all the accumulated crap that has fallen into the bottom of the tank. Refill with new oil and you should be good to go. I would definitely replace the "radiator cap" on the tank BTW. In your climate it would be well worth sticking pretty rigidly to the recommended change periods for the hydraulic oil which are 2000 operating hours or 1 year - whichever comes first. Drop the suction screen and clean it every time you change the oil.
I'm hearing from various persons, whom I suspect of knowing what they're talking about, that this is a widespread problem. Wouldn't a simple remedy be to provide a form of controlled expansion/contraction to the hyd tank, eg a bladder installed at a high point? With that, there'd at least seem to be no possible net /increase/ in the trapped moisture left behind, after each occasion when the tank is opened to atmosphere. Tank would still be allowed to release pressure at something close to "do it or bulge forever" pr - just not take in any air. In my case, since the intake is very low and not filtered (only 'screened,' we think) it looks to me as if I can't afford to be much less than purist about this, or I will be pulling rusty grit into my pump - hope I haven't already been doing a lot of that. --Dave
There are dessicant breathers available, probably would be a simple matter to plumb one into the vent line on the radiator cap relief valve.
OK, I gotta Google THAT now, too...thanks... Know anything about these? I'm kind of excited about them (the following linked item) as maybe a cure-all for both hydraulic- AND fuel-tank rust issues that seem to be coming at me right and left: http://b3cfuel.com/products/diesel-tank-snake-water-absorber These even have magnets built in, so maybe I won't have a regular painful task of getting under that tank, moving a dozen hoses out of the way, dropping a big flange in order to clean the outlet screen... Gonna have to wait until Monday to hear whether they think it's not going to work in a tank full of ATF, but at a minimum, I think I'd need two others right away for fuel tanks. --Dave
The expansion bladder idea is sound. I can't remember where I've seen it, maybe not in this field even, any Harvestores in Hawaii?. An expansion bladder inline with the dessicant filter would be the ultimate protection. The only new moisture would be if the hydraulic system leaked and needed to suck new air in, or if the cap was opened.
http://hydraulicspneumatics.com/hyd...reather-incorporates-check-valves-longer-life http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/346/desiccant-breathers https://www.google.com/search?q=hyd...&ved=0CIYBELMYahUKEwjRibq3mL7HAhXJ04AKHQEMAYE https://www.hyprofiltration.com/products/detail/reservoir-accessories/hy-dry-desiccant-breather/ http://www.filtroil.com/desiccant.shtml http://www.lelubricants.com/desiccant-breathers.html
Lantraxco - thanks for the intro & survey of desiccant breathers...interesting reading. Come business hours, I think I need to talk to someone at Hy-Pro to ask about specific apps. Their page at https://www.hyprofiltration.com/products/detail/reservoir-accessories/hy-dry-desiccant-breather/ links to a pdf that seems like it's the best engineered for my concerns: they talk about it being fitted with inlet/outlet "check-valves" (might better be described as "regulators?") that are intended to avoid needless 'breathing' through the consumable desiccant, so as to prolong its lifespan, by not opening until some low pressure threshold is reached. I'm envisioning I might either modify the current radiator-cap-style cover to accept a standard MPT on a replaceable breather, but may not have room...not a big problem to mount it /somewhere/, though. Some breathers seem to be specified in terms of CFM, which I find slightly puzzling. I guess some reservoirs, eg factory settings, must see big regular changes in volume of tank fluid (single-acting cylinders, aux circuits, or other places where fluid "goes out" without returning approximately simultaneously?), but my mental picture is that this isn't so much the case with an excavator, loader, etc - true? Now that I think about it, a couple of years back I saw someone's DIY version of something like this, maybe for a fuel storage tank, where he revealed the 'secrets': that the desiccant could be baked dry (returning to original color) and then re-used, and was commonly available as a color-indicating kitty litter of some variety at your (not mine, though) local WalMart...I think he had it installed in some clear tubing where it was easy to check for color on a regular basis. Or even simpler - maybe I just need to fill my hyd tank with kitty-litter, and be done with it for the next few years? --Dave
Any hydraulic system with cylinders will constantly change the oil volume in the reservoir, this is why in most owner manuals the manufacturer will specify a certain boom/stick/bucket configuration for checking hyd oil level. Most of the machines I dealt with it was bucket rolled inward to stop, stick pulled in to stop, boom down until the back of the bucket or bucket linkage rested on the ground. Sort of a set point for the oil level. Breather systems fall into three categories: 1) Those with a simple breather which usually has a screen or air filter in it but air moves freely in and out. 2) Those with a breather with check valves, when the oil level lowers in the tank a low pressure check opens and allows (usually filtered) air in to fill the space in the tank, when the oil level rises a higher pressure check valve allows the air to compress up to it's opening pressure, will usually be 8-10 pounds or sometimes higher, machines like yours with the radiator cap are usually marked .7 or 1, which is either bar or Kgm/Cm2, roughly 14 psi=1 of either for this purpose. 3) Some machines actually have an air compressor which pressurizes the air space in the hydraulic tank, the air is usually run through at least a water separator first which helps on humidity. The constant pressure actually serves to supercharge the piston pumps which makes them very happy indeed. Now you know more than you ever wanted to about mobile hydraulic breather systems, LOL!
Don, The 307 belonging to the OP is kinda like your option 3 with a sealed tank but instead of an external air compressor it's only the added pressure created by the hot air above the oil that pressurizes the suction line somewhat, a bit like a track-type tractor hydraulic tank. I'm leaning to the idea that at least it should have the (radiator-style) pressure cap replaced plus all the seals for the oil filter housing as a first step to try to get it airtight.
Nige, I think you're right on the procedure. As I recall the tube coming off the pressure cap just went into never land, there's no filter on the end of it? Plumbing in a spin on return filter somewhere with a water trapping media might be something to consider also, pull some of the entrained water out of the hydraulic oil? Zinga AquaZorb comes to mind.
I was thinking of the chalkboard line-drawing of a cylinder, where the rod exists only as a line, I suppose. In that world, double-acting cylinders wouldn't draw from or add to any fluid from/to their reservoirs as they move...whatever qty of fluid is being pushed in on the high pressure side of the piston would be returning from the low-pressure side of the piston...but that neglects the volume of fluid that's displaced by the rod - so the extension of any rod out of its cylinder requires more fluid volume to make a given piston motion, vs retraction. The machine position you described sounds like it'd be the theoretical lowest-reservoir condition, wherein as much rod is extended as possible. (What? I'm late to the party?) --Dave
Most excavators have a diagram showing where to put the equipment before checking the tank level. I am not 100% sure if it's the same for the Op's 307 but this is the diagram that applies to all the Cat excavators I've ever been around. The US-built 307 calls for this method to be used, I don't see why a Japanese-built machine would be any different.
Yes, that's exactly the setup - though I confess I didn't yet go through the gymnastics required to find the open end of the 1/4" tubing coming off the bottom of the cap-fitting on the tank to confirm it just goes to daylight somewhere. I checked those out just now - can't tell, are they intended to process the fluid directly, or the reservoir air? --Dave
Pants, what he's talking about is to install a new full-flow filter into the return line to the hydraulic tank that not only filters the oil but also has the capacity to remove any trapped water from the oil as it passes through the element.
I'd consider the fluid-contact type, but from my brief survey of desiccant breathers it seems they offer a key advantage of "at-a-glance" assessment of their moisture saturation level, eg 'change it when it's dark green' (or whatever). Are any of the inline fluid-handling types known to offer some kind of visual condition assessment? --Dave
Yes, full flow, or if there's a suitable circuit a "kidney loop" filter to extract water from the oil that passes through the filter. The absorbent media in these filters will shut flow off when they saturate so the normal restriction gauge or indicator on the filter will let you know it's full and bypassing, same as if it had filled up with dirt. You still need something on the breather end to keep the tank from rusting up so much, but the oil filter would help the oil live longer and with it hopefully all the hydraulic components as well. May or may not be worth the money, time, and hassle. The full size head takes both short and long filters, if you have room the long filter will obviously go longer between changes. As an aside, I first used these Aquazorb filters on diesel fuel pumps, we had a couple bad batches of fuel from our supplier at one point and even though fuel was cheap then, fuel filters were not, and throwing cases per week of the Deere rectangular glass filters away added up quick. There were some associated costs related to injection pumps and injectors as well, filters aren't perfect after all. When installed on our in ground tank pump and all our transfer tanks in pickups and our lube truck, the Aquazorb filters would literally choke fuel flow down to a small trickle when they saturated with water. Slap another one on and happily keep pumping.
That actually makes more sense to me, as it looks like all the cylinders are about mid stroke? We had Mitsubishi and Hitachi hoes back when I worked on them, if I'm remembering correctly they all called for the tucked in, laid down configuration.
The Cat recommendation for equipment position while checking the tank level is also a very logical place to leave the machine when parking it overnight IMHO.
From what I see on jobsites here, a common practice is to extend boom and stick as far as possible to close off entrances against thieves, and/or to lay them down on hoe-rams or spare buckets for the same reason...Always wondered who would want to steal something like a bucket or hoe-ram that wouldn't also know that the machines all keyed alike anyway.
Sounds like a good recommendation, if I can afford it (/both/ a breather setup, and a fluid-handling desiccant setup). Would the kidney-loop require something new (eg a pump) to move the fluid through it, or can it scavenge from existing fluid movement? I'm thinking of how toilet-paper filters just steal a small amount of 'excess' pressure at engine oil-pump outlet, to create a low-flow bypass loop. Maybe I could be looking for a place to tap a smallish bypass in on the high side of my pump, then, regulated with...I dunno, a needle-valve? --Dave
I'm not familiar with the 307 so I don't know about it's circuits. Some machines have circuits where smaller pumps will be circulating oil, so you can use a smaller filter and the oil all eventually gets filtered over time. That machine is small enough you can probably just plumb right into the return to tank as Nige says, though if you left the OEM filter in the circuit also you would see some increase in back pressure on the return line possibly.
Niege, I believe all US market 307 s were built in Japan. I had a 1994 2PM I recently sold. It was built in Japan. The picture you showed was the way to configure the boom/stick/bucket to check the hydraulic oil level. I traded the 307 for a 308E 2, which was one of the last US market machines to be built in Japan. They are now built in Georgia. The 307 is no longer available in the US market, but is still built for other markets.
I hadn't been paying any attention to this until now for some reason, but there's a CAT 5I-8670X existing spin-on OF in my machine that I'm guessing is a 'kidney loop' filter for the hydraulic fluid - the type Lantraxco was describing? Would that make sense? Might this provide an option for a desiccant-type replacement filter, to simply spin on? (Or might this already BE a desiccant-containing filter?) Also - the red-circled item (in the left shot) might/might not be where I'm supposed to bleed air from hydraulic circuit to main pump prior to starting the engine. There's an image of this plug, arrowed, in the all-Japanese operator service book, within the section covering fluid replacement, so I think that's it. Anyone know for sure? There are also two quick-connect nipples on the pump body (one visible in same shot, with black plastic dirt-cap in place). Are those both for... pressure-testing? Finally, the small pump at the tail end of the big pump (left end of same shot) - what does that serve? Thanks for all the help. Dave
That filter is for the pilot oil which supplies your joysticks and travel controllers, it's probably three micron? and is in the supply circuit to insure no particles big enough to jam up the tight clearances in the control plungers get through. Very little flow there, but I suppose you could use a different filter there, the caveat being the filter is "medium pressure" probably rated to 500 psi. I don't think CAT uses any dessicant filters, I may be wrong. Yes, since when you change oil you pull the suction off the bottom of the tank, I would assume the pump is drained leaving it full of air. Since you don't want those very expensive metal pieces inside the pump making love without lube, after filling the tank I would suggest loosening that plug until all the air is gone and oil seeps out. Somebody will correct me of course if I'm hallucinating again. Yes, the black dust covers are all covering pressure test point ready to quick couple pressure gauges on. The little pump is what supplies the pilot pressure that passes through the safety lockout valve, through the pilot filter, and on to the controls which send oil to shift the spools in the main valves, and a short list of other important functions, like two speed travel.
Cat don't manufacture dessicant-type filters. However I personally think you're going off on a tangent here and trying to over-think things. The tank has had condensation in it, true. However replacing the tank cap and all the seals for the various covers on the tank should fix that. Once the tank is "sealed" for want of a better word the air in it is never going to change and no moisture will be able to get in or out. At that point do a complete oil drain and replace with new oil and you should be good to go. IMHO the fact that you are using ATF as a hydraulic fluid is not helping things. ATF is too light for your climatic conditions (it's a bit less than 10 weight, you should be using something closer to 30 weight or ISO 68 viscosity) which will result in the hydraulic oil getting far hotter than it should due to the churning effect of the lighter oil. Also ATF has a tendency to absorb moisture far more than a hydraulic oil which is the last thing you need bearing in mind your current tank issues. You also mentioned fuel tank water issues in this and other machines that you have in the damp climate of your location. The solution to this is relatively-speaking simple: - 1. Always fill fuel tanks right to the top at the end of every working day to reduce condensation. 2. If 1 is not possible install a full-flow dessicant breather in the fuel tank vent. 3. Drain any accumulated water from fuel tanks daily as opposed to weekly that the manual recommends. 4. If you have any machines that are not equipped with a combined primary fuel filter and water separator that permits draining water from the bowl below the primary filter then you should install them. The water separators should also be drained daily.
Lantraxco - thanks for the ongoing education & amusement. Good stuff. --Dave
Nige, Thanks yet again. I'm definitely prone to overthinking, sometime in tandem with 'underacting' - especially when the weather's bad and the alternative to actually doing anything is to keep on googlin.' But I have to ask about the tank-breathing dynamics again...going into this, I'd for some simplistic reason thought the "radiator-style" pressure cap was effectively a check-valve that would keep my tank from exploding by providing a means to *vent* pressure - and only to vent. But mustn't it also provide a means for the tank to take IN air when needed, as well, so that, after a long hot day of machine use with the oil heated up and air burping out the cap regularly, when the temperature subsequently dips into freezing territory that night (OK, that never happens here, but you take my meaning), the tank doesn't buckle/collapse? (My model on this is how radiator caps work - expelling coolant when hot to the overflow tank, then taking it back in via a second spring-check). So assuming that's also the case with my cap, the occasional slug of air that the tank might have to gulp in (through that dangling hose) might indeed be very wet. So wouldn't it be true that even a factory-fresh pressure/vacuum cap, I will still be gulping in occasional wet lung-fulls of air? Maybe my assumption about the two-way valving on the cap is flawed, but it seems intuitively necessary that it work that way - else how does the tank ever take in air? re: replacing fluid - is just "ISO68" an adequate specification? Any concerns about brands? Any hot tips on sources? re: (4) - definitely... in the wake of my recent IP rebuild for this machine, I bought a bunch of new twin-filter "CAV-style" fuel-filter heads, apparently well known to Ford tractor users. For some reason, they came with no tech data, and seller hasn't been able to provide any yet, either, but indicated that they'd just 'drop in' where the old one had been, so not a lot of thought would normally be needed. One side has a glass bowl, the other an aluminum bowl. I'd assumed when I ordered them that the design of these was to filter the fuel in series , but they're actually made to work in parallel, which seems less than optimal, esp since there's only one glass bowl & drain. There are four ports with arrows in/out, numbered 1-4, but it's clear from looking into the drillings that the "clean" fuel is common to one long passage, and similarly the 'dirty' fuel is commingled by design. I actually went to the trouble to modify one such that it works in series, with the glass bowl side being the primary filtration, and it's ready for use on the CAT now. Others will go on other machines/truck/whatever soon. Do you happen to know about the parallel/series-flow concern there? Maybe these are for some reason intended to be essentially one large filter, not two stages? I much appreciate all the assistance & details on other issues not mentioned in my reply...working on implementing. Thanks again - Dave
Regarding your tank, the answer is no, the cap isn't designed to allow air in, only to vent pressure out if it exceeds the rating of the cap. If the cap is in good condition, the seal is OK, and it is relieving at the correct pressure the internal tank pressure generated by the heat from the oil will never be enough to lift the cap so it won't ever "burp". Remember we're only talking of pressures inside the tank at most maybe 2-3psi here, the cap is probably rated for possibly as much as 10psi. The idea is that the tank is sealed once you install the cap - which is why it is important to have the level correct when you put the cap on. The whole idea of the cap is not to let air in from the outside, therefore if there is anywhere else for air to get in such as a leaking sight glass (while I think about it, replace all the o-rings in the sight glass) or the cover for the filter due to a bad o-ring say, you're defeating the whole idea. Regarding your hydraulic oil specification. You need a good-quality hydraulic oil from one of the major suppliers like Shell, Mobil, Chevron, etc, that is of a viscosity around SAE30 or ISO 68 That's the same viscosity BTW, just measured on different scales. I prefer not to buy from Joe Blow's Gas & Groceries ....... The oil container may be marked as meeting one or more of the following standards: - Denison HF-0 Vickers I-286-S Vickers M-2950-S DIN 51524 HLP ISO 11158 Type HM
As usual, I defer to Nige's more sensible approach, he's laid out the correct course of action for you. I always overthink things, apologies, lol
OK, thanks guys. Nige, do the tank-related part numbers I scanned from that Japanese-language parts book "work?" At least some - the seven-digit ones - look like Mitsubishi p/ns, from my previous chases. The pressure-relief cap is E55701500, which seems unknown to Google...but I think I can come up with other items (mostly o-rings) locally or by mail once I have the sizes. As to hydraulic oil - AW 68, from what I gather, just means "anti-wear" & meets ISO 68. AW 68 seems relatively affordable here for some reason. Does that meet your recommendation? Mahalo... Dave
The pressure cap E55701500 also comes up a blank with me unfortunately. All I can suggest is that you try to match it physically with something at a local motor factor. Either that or try the Cat dealer in your area who may have access to some cross-references that I don't. All the o-rings with Part Numbers like 095-xxxx are Cat Part Numbers that also appear on the US systems and are all easily obtainable from Cat. Regarding the oil, AW68 ought to fill the bill. Just make sure that it also meets at least one of the other specifications I listed above in post #126.
I went back into old emails re: gray-market parts for CAT & found very helpful info from a parts woman on the US mainland - she said "... put in the Mitsubishi part number and part type 84 (code for mitsubishi) it should cross to the caterpillar number ..." I just tried this with local CAT parts counter & it seems to have worked, to their surprise...they came up with p/n 094-1415. At $42, I really HOPE my old cap is leaking...
84 is the code, lol... MHI= Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Tried to convince a young parts lad at my former employer he could cross Mitsubishi numbers, he flatly told me I was wrong.... called back and asked for one of my former workmates, we had a laugh... two old farts laughing at the young kid, just like we used to be. Well done!
094-1415 comes up as a hydraulic tank cap used on the Mitsubishi-manufactured E-series of hydraulic excavators, so I'd say you are on the right lines. Your dealer's price is a bit dodgy though, I show the price as $27.
SOLD! (seriously, if there's a way to buy from your sources...local CAT parts would have to get this from California anyway, and then I'd spend $10 in fuel to drive to their ugly-industrial-town location to get it. It's all part of the Paradise Tax we pay, for the privilege of...near-the-top cost-of-living in the USA? OK, things are warm here, and green, but...) LMK if there's a way to order - PM? Mahalo - Dave
And just to beat a dead horse a bit more :deadhorse http://www.oiln2.com/ I think these kind of encompass all the good ideas thrown around here for hyd tank venting? LOL
Wow...if I just saw the photo of those tanks, I'd have guessed that they were prototype space-burial capsules being sold by SpaceX... So those guys already stole my idea, just in the space of a day or two? Dang it! --Dave
I have a 307B machine with the same IP. I pulled it to have it repaired and now i need to reinstall. What is the procedure for this pump? literature for this machine has been difficult to come by. I have parts book, and basic service/operation, but have been unable to find service manuals.
See if this works, the manual may be older than your engine: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ozs6lp2vezdfw7h/Fuso 4D3 95 Shop Manual.pdf?dl=0
I'll be interested to hear how it goes for you. My machine is eternally awaiting my time to complete the refitting; IP has been rebuilt and back in place for months, but other problems made themselves apparent before I'd gotten around to restarting it (hydraulic fluid is about as drained as it can get now). --Dave
Thank you lantraxco It looks like that is the info i need!!
Glad it helped!
SeanO, if you're still there, did you find the IP swap-out gear-orientation info from Lantraxco's attachment of use? (excerpt attached): I never noticed the referenced index-marks on my IP, designed to tell us where the IP gear needs to be while being re-installed, but it could be they're there - I'd have to pull my IP to check, and that's a huge PITA. No point in my 'splainin' why it's coming up on a year now since I re-installed my IP, then on a dangling, removed-from-excavator engine, but suffice it to say my memory isn't the greatest as to what exactly I did to ensure timing was right. No question that I took great pains to align the punchmarks on the IP's driven- and driving-gears. But I'm fuzzy on whether/how I verified that the crank pulley was showing TDC, and not 360 off of TDC, but since that's something I knew then to be a concern, it's hard for me to believe I got that wrong. I've gotten dumber things wrong, though. Anyway, what I'm getting is 1-or-2 seconds of running, only with starting-fluid, and with copious white smoke, tinged with gray when I tried to dose it with a little more starting-fluid to keep it running, but never long enough to idle. Sound like something's, well...360 out? Ugh... Dave
360 is a full circle so what you mean is 180 out, which means the injectors would be pulsing fuel on the exhaust stroke. Won't run that way. Best way to determine you are on #1 TDC is to remove the valve cover and make sure both valve rockers have slack when the timing marks are lined up. If the gear was removed from your IP it is just one more thing to check to be sure the timing is all correct.
360 vs 180: Well, here's the thing: the only index that I've got, to my knowledge, is the clear (but impossible to view when installed) punch-marks on IP drive/driven gears. I'm 100% certain that those are aligned properly. But if that drive gear gets to that same position twice for every crank revolution, and if I didn't ensure that I was at TDC-compression for #1 when I installed the pump, then, as goofy as it sounds, I'd say it is actually "360 out," not 180. (either way, it's a huge pain to fix...) Gear removed from IP? Yes, but it's on a Woodruff key, so no option to get it back on wrong. That's the good news. My main concern right now is, if I bite the bullet and extract the IP again, will I indeed find some previously-unnoticed timing index marks (per my attachment) on the IP, so as to be able to perhaps cobble up some means to lock the IP drive gear into the correct position to allow it to be re-installed, of course with no accidental movement of the gear (LOTS of swearing inevitable in this awful configuration). Unless I were to drill a large-ish hole in the timing cover to expose the gear-indexing punch-marks to view from the front of the engine, there's no way to lay eyes on them. And I'd DO that if I could do so without getting a lot of cast-iron into my oil! Even with the engine out, I had to spend about 30 minutes checking and re-checking to be sure I wasn't going to be off by a tooth - and now it's looking like I was probably off by a full turn of that drive gear. (yes, the engine is back in now.) --Dave
OK.. I see what your saying PANTS.. BUT what you "might not be understanding is">>> the engine turns 2X the pump.. EVERY TIME the pump turns 1time.. the engine has turned 2X's.. SO>> in "theory" your right.. IF your not on the "CORRECT STROKE" you need to turn your engine/crank 360*.. 180* for us in the know.. lol ON TOP OF THAT>> the gears are "helical".. SO>> if you line up your marks.. they are gonna SPIN.. either 1 tooth forward or 1 tooth back.. and more than likely.. its gonna be 2 forward or 2 back.. THATS EXACTLY WHY.. I tell folks to time the friggin engine before pulling a pump.. You better handle this LAN.. my fingers are drinkin'
What? thepumpguy can't remember which way the timing gears slant on a Mitsibushi? He must be drinkin Pants: I'm with you, you're 360 degrees before top dead center (on compression, measured at the crankshaft). As long as you understand it.
Thanks to drinkers and non-drinkers alike... So the consensus is that, despite my best efforts to avoid being so, I'm...how can I say without further controversy...off by half of a complete engine cycle? Anyway, let's assume I pull the damned IP out to try again. If there's no IP index-mark showing gear orientation for #1TDC installation - only that dimple on the wrong side of the driven gear - what might I then do to position [and hold] the gear in the #1TDC position in order to re-install, at last, in the proper orientation? Right about now, it seems like a custom cam with lobes twisted 180 would be more palatable...or would that be "360?"
We're both right, but you're probably more right. The engine is off by one full turn, the pump is off by half a turn (maybe) OR it's off by a tooth or two. Maybe.
Either way I would say you're going to be pulling the pump again, but before you do that, do what lantraxco suggested and get the engine on to TDC on #1 cylinder by removing the valve cover and rotating the engine until the rockers on #4 cylinder are rocking (one opening, one closing). If you keep tweaking the engine a few degrees either way you will find the balance point at which both rockers are kind of half-way through their stroke and at that point the rockers on #1 cylinder should both be slack. That is TDC #1 and at that point pull the pump.
I didn't get notification of your reply for some reason, Nige, but thanks - and Lantraxco, you nailed it. I got the engine running...that's the short version. In fact, that's the VERY short version. It's been a /year/; not sure what emoticon would be appropriate... Rip Van Winkle with a beer mug, prolly? Before pulling the pump ("slipping it back an inch" would be more accurate) I did ensure I was at #1TDC, by probing in the empty glow-plug hole to feel the piston's high-point, then verifying at the crank pulley, and also pulling the valve-cover and noting that both #1 pushrods were loose and rattly. When I slipped the pump away from the timing-cover mounts enough to see, sure enough, there IS a subtle relief in the casting that matched the illustration in the Mitsubishi engine manual [that Lantraxco posted a while back...wish I'd had that when I was installing the IP almost a year ago; I'd have known what to be looking out for. HUGE thanks for that, BTW!] And yes, there IS indeed that subtle notch on one of the gear-teeth, that (had I known it was there) I should have lined up with that relieved 'pointer'. Taking it apart this afternoon, I didn't spot the little notch in any tooth until the gear had already sprung around, just slightly, losing the exact orientation to which I'd last assembled it. But two things were clear: it had NOT been right at the pointer, or I'd have seen it, and it had DEFINITELY not been a full 180 out. I can only conclude that it was a few teeth off...which still is going to drive me batty, because I would bet my life that I'd aligned the only marks I'd been aware of back when I installed the pump to begin with: the dimples at the match-point between the cam and IP drive-gear. Now THAT I remember: I painted both dimples white, transferred the marks from the "blind side" (front/covered) of the gears to the side I could see, so as not to let the slight spin from the helix throw me off...even used a mirror to see the blind-side to verify, and ended up completely sure I'd aligned them. Yet no , somehow I didn't? So yeah, it's running, though I've only done so briefly, since I've got some hydraulic and other issues to fix first - and then a hell of a lot of work to do to finish painting & assembling the shroud puzzle-pieces... --------------- Other stuff: Is there any means by which to prime the pilot-pump, or is that even necessary? Aside from the boom cylinder, I'd left the cylinders disconnected for now, because several need new seals, and I've just replaced the fluid, so I thought I might as well keep the old stuff out of the new circulation and top up later when I've got all the cylinders ready to rock. And I had assumed, wrongly, that there would be little or no flow through the plastic-capped main lines that head up to the bucket, stick, and articulation cylinders, but with the engine finally running, it was clear that even with "dead sticks," there was flow. Not a huge spill, fortunately, but definitely flow. Is this normal? Thanks all for the support! Dave
There are usually make up checks on each work port of the control valves so that should a suction be created on one end of a cylinder due to moving faster than the the oil can flow through the spool or what not, the check opens and oil flows from the tank return galley out that port. There's usually enough back pressure from filters, tank fittings, etc. to push those checks open if the lines are open or lightly capped.