OK, so most of you know my shop burnt down 2 days before my back surgery, w/ a customers pump inside.. I figured I'd pick-up a few hundred before I was layed-up for a few months.. I had quoted the man a price for the removal/reinstall and pump overhaul.. The fire TOTALY destroyed this guys pump.. I called the man and told him what happened and that I wouldn't be able to do ANYTHING for a few weeks on account of my surgery.. He "said" he understood and went on for 30 minutes about how he found the tractor in the woods and was bringing it back to life after 10 years of it hidden in the forest.. SO FAR, I've gotten about 35 phone calls from this guy wanting to know WHEN I can get back to his tractor.. because NOW he "needs it".. I scoured the web and FINALLY found a pump and paid 1600.00 for it on account I have NO CORE.. I called him to let him know, I BOUGHT a pump and it would be at my house in the MIDDLE of the week, Wendsday.. He called Monday, Tuesday AND wendsday raising hell about, how it shouldn't take "that long" to get a pump.. I received the pump Wendsday nite but didn't find it on the porch till this morning.. Thursday.. I opened the box and low and behold it has the wrong inlet and outlet fittings on it.. NORMALLY that wouldn't be a problem, just go to the shop and get the correct ones.. guess what?? NO SHOP.. SO, I put on my back brace, grab my walker and head to the burnt up building and found EVERTHING I need to get the pump right..!!! fuel inlet/outlet and 4 line connectors.. What a miracle.. My question to you "understanding fellas" IS.. Should I hold this guy to the original quote??? or eat the 1600.00 and shake his hand, tell him how sorry I am that things went this way, and be on my merry way??? BTW.. the quote was less than 450.00 ... So either way it goes, I'm loosing over 1000.00.. and to tell you the honest truth, I'm not even sure I'll be able to bend down that far to get the pump back on.. I know I OWE the guy a pump because it wasn't HIS FAULT AND it's been almost a month since I've been able to get up and around.. BUT Dam.. he SAID he understood about the back surgery.. and the phone calls were killin me.. On top of all that, I'm going to have to hire a helper to go with me incase something goes wrong.. What to do.. what to do..?? I called the customer this morning a told him I'd have his tractor running this weekend... I have to wait till the wife goes to work before I can leave the house or she'll KILL ME.. Lol Lets hear.. good or bad.. I'm stuck on this one... OR it might be the pain killers clouding my judgment..
Well, I'm no lawyer (or back surgeon ) but I'm not one bit sure that you are LEGALLY responsible for the loss of his pump just because it was in your shop fire. I believe this would depend on if you were negligent in causing the fire, leaving the pump in an unsafe location etc. none of which seems to be the case. There is also a notion of "unjust enrichment" that would suggest he should pay the difference between the price of the new pump and the work you agreed to do to the pump (minus the core if you take responsibility for that?). You don't have to charge him for each phone call if you don't want to. I certainly wouldn't do the whole job for free if that was what you were considering. Somewhere between the original quote and $1,600 plus R+R would be a fair price in my mind, but it sounds like you just want to be done with the guy.
He should pay the original quote and quit bothering you the cost of the new pump should be paid by your shop insurance policy if you didn't have insurance then you have to suck it up and pay out of pocket You still need the original 450 to cover r+r and time you had in taking the pump apart He shouldn't a freebie unless there was a written time quote
Yair . . . thepumpguysc. Accidents happen and things go pear shaped, there is only so much you can or should do. Your health and well being are your main considerations and if I had your misfortune the client would wait for my insurance company to replace the pump and then I would send it out to another pumpshop and arrange for them to do repairs as required. If the four hundred and fifty bucks you have quoted did not cover it I would probably pick up the tab for the balance. The fact he may have to wait a few months for insurance settlement is not my problem. Gear was accepted into our shop with all care and no responsibility . . . it may be different in the US. This is not an unusual scenario, these sort of unfortunate occurrences happen all the time and although I understand your concerns, you should in no way accept responsibility . . . **** happens. That's my take on it anyway . . . for what its worth. All the best with your recovery. Cheers.
Morally I think you have he responsibility to replace the pump that was destroyed under your care. Even though it is a tough hit, I believe replacing it will reward you many times over in the long run. It shows you to be an outstanding, honest businessman of good character. He still has a obligation to pay the original repair quoted for the pump. Last, but not least your customer is a worm of the lowest regards. What rational person would be calling you repeatedly when the job was of no rush to start with and then with regards to the circumstances. In the end we all have to deal with our own conscience. I wish you the best of luck.
Morally speaking, and to keep my reputation intact, I'd eat the cost of the new one. But I'd sure show him the receipt for the replacement, and if this guy is even half a human being, he'd throw something in to help cover the incident, unfortunate as it was. I don't even know you, but if I was within an hour or two's drive, I'd come down and offer to provide whatever free labor I could to help you out for the day. I've turned a wrench or two before. Maybe there's a fellow forum member close by who would offer to give you a hand ?
Sounds like this bloke has become a bit of a A** Hole. I'd stick to my quote as a matter of good faith but let him know what it's cost you, them tell him it's cash upfront to fit the pump. IMHO A** Holes aren't good payers
Agree with the others about the tough luck. I'd say unless your insurance picks up the pump, you're gonna have to eat it unless Mr. A**hole offers to pay for some. I have ran into these guys before. All nicey-nicey until it is an inconvenience for them, then they lose their minds. Hope he has a change of heart. Also hope you get back on your feet as soon as possible.
I usually had writing on my work order to the affect that I had no responsibility for unforeseen circumstances. Should a volcano explode, a war happen, someone break into my shop and so on, it was just a piece of life. Legally I don't think that in most states you can write yourself out of some sort of responsibility but I've seen auto shops do it all the time in this state. I think the term is bailor / bailee relationship and you have to show reasonable care and caution in having possession of some else's property. Delmer is dead on with his statement. Were I in your shoes and having faced the aggravation of this lout, I would charge him the whole bill and hold him up till he paid it before reinstalling the pump. You basically have a mechanic's lien on the job so he can't force you to work for nothing. He could go to small claims court and take months to get a judgement and then have to force you to pay if he won, which he wouldn't. I can tell you feel bad about this and want to do the right thing but at the very least make sure you get your original quote before you reinstall that pump. I can see the jerk just driving off with the now running machine and refuse to pay.
I SURELY don't want this to go to court.. AND I NEVER even considered him NOT PAYING the original quote.. but now that it has been mentioned,, it sure is something to think about.. DAM.!! I'll eat the 1600.00 and just get my quote and be on my way.. Word of mouth goes A LONG, LONG WAY out here.. I just hope and pray that "THE STORY" doesn't get distorted, making ME out to be the A-hole.. THANKS FOR ALL YOUR REPLIES.. TPG Speaking of court.. I got a summons in the mail yesterday for jury duty.. I think I'll give them a call and explain to them about my back surgery and am unable to walk or drive and I'm taking 2 different types of pain killers 4x a day which "might" cloud my judgment.. LOL.. You think they'll understand?? LOL My opinion is NO.. they'll want me to drive 100 miles just to send me home..
I would get the $450 and not bother with the installation. One homeowner is not going to make or break your pump business. People are strange and I wouldn't go out of my way by hiring another person to reinstall the pump. Just tell the guy due to circumstances I cannot install it if you want to pick it up pay the $450 and be on your way.
Update.. I was feelin pretty good yesterday so decided to grab a willing friend and head out to put the pump on.. Had the pump on in 45 minutes and went to start it.. Normally it would take me 15 minutes.. DEAD BATTERY.. Called the customer, both cars in the drive, and said he had a dead battery and wondered if he was at home.. He said, NO, he wasn't there.. but would call his son who lived next door to help.. After an hour of trying to get the bat charged enough to spin the engine to bleed the system I quit.. Showed the 40yr old son what needed to be done, and left.. Threw*up about 15x and almost passed out even more.. WAY TO MUCH, TO FAST!!.. I got 3 calls from the customer BEFORE I got home and I didn't call him back.. He NEVER mentioned ANY MONEY and never showed up at the job site.. I took a handful of pain killers and passed out from the pain.. Not feelin real sporty this morning either.. I'm just NOT physically able to finish the job..
Man you have got to take I easy. Costumers like this one aren't worth loosing sleep over little lone your health. The upside is your son now knows how to get the pump off it push comes to shove.
For someone who REALLY needed this tractor, which he acts like it had been an active member of his fleet, AND not having the decency to leave a good hot battery for you for an operation that requires many turns of the engine to complete, screw him! From my time on the forum, you have enough business from good customers and I'm sure many referrals from them to not need to deal with an a##hole like him. Force him to pay at least the quote, which I never do on older machinery as I NEVER know what kind of cluster * I'm taking on. Cut him loose and make sure he never comes back or make sure he knows why you don't want him as a customer anymore. I suspect that to anyone that knows him, he has a well earned reputation as you have experienced and will understand why you dealt with him as you may have to.
Tones> it was HIS SON.. and ALL HE KNOWS is how to bleed the air out of the system.. WRWtexan>> your exactly right.. I called and told him on Saturday, I'd be there Sunday.. and the guy I took w/ me, didn't have a kind word for the "man".. he said he's known this guy for 40 years and STILL didn't have anything nice to say about him.!!!! EXCEPT, just figure yourself OUT 1600.00.!!! My buddy said, at least the pumps easy to get back off if he doesn't pay ya.. Lol.. On a side note.. he hasn't called once today.. The way I figure it, I fulfilled MY END of the deal.. I bought this guy a pump and reinstalled it.. NOT MY FAULT his battery was dead.. I'll keep you posted, as I'm sure this isn't the end..
Pumpguy, Like others have said wish you were closer to here, I'd be there at the drop of a hat to give you a hand. I my opinion you have gone way beyond what a decent person would expect. Do take care of your back it's the most important thing to be concerned about right now.
You forfilled your end now call the phone company block his number and get some rest
If he doesn't pay take him to small claims court. And charge him then for the wasted time for two people. Chances are with his reputation the judge will know of him also and justice will be done. Good Luck.
"Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves."
I am not sure that attempting to collect the money owed from the original agreement could be called revenge. And charging for time spent after having a time agreed upon is a realistic charge. I do agree though that revenge is a dead end street.
Not meant as a criticism OIH. Just trying to provide a little balance.
Not to hijack the thread, but how does anyone if any do, quote a job on older machinery? I specialize in older farm equipment and even on a job I have done many times before (say an IH 856 clutch replace), if the customer asks how much it will cost, I tell them a close figure but they can't hold me to it. I never know what kind of rigging has been done or extra damage I may find once inside. I know auto mechanics give an estimate which they must call about if there will be a cost over run on, but what we work on doesn't play by those rules. Take pumpguy's project, as it has sat in the woods for years and he is tasked with fixing the pump and starting it, what if there are other unknown factors which could prevent his work from successfully fixing the machine? Or the knuckle dragging owner doesn't the decency to leave a hot battery for completing his work. His quote then is out the window. I will estimate a project's repair time but charge for actual productive repair time spent.
I would say there's a couple of factors in play here, firstly; Know the difference between and estimate and a quote and just as importantly make sure your customer does when you're discussing the job with him (and maybe more importantly, her) And secondly, experience. I don't care what anyone says, there's no way I could have done (professionally speaking) what I do now, when I was 25.
I ONLY gave him a price on a PUMP overhaul and installation.. I do this for a living and heard the engine start and run, so I knew the Head & Rotor, main pumping unit, was good.. so I gave him the "brother in-law" ESTIMATE.. And like you said, I ALWAYS call if something goes a rye.. BTW> he still hasn't called back.. the son must have gotten the battery hot enough to get the air out and he's riding around cutting grass.. Lol We'll see.. Thanks again for all the advice.. TPG
Has your favourite client coughed up yet TPG?
I haven't heard a peep from him since he got his 1600.00 pump installed.. [for free] I think I'll give him a call today. I'll bet the call goes to voice mail.?? Personally, its not a question of money, but that of reputation.. I don't want him hiring someone else to "finish" the job and then bad mouthing me.. 100.00 says he got it started and NEVER called back..!!!
Since when did you become a charity TPG. And another 100 says he aint gona pay.
He's going to bad mouth you to everyone anyhow, no matter what you'd have done, no matter whether there was a fire or not, if he'd have gotten it back the next day, its how these types operate. I'd take a portion of the bet saying your not going to get a dime, and still end up being the ahole. If I hadn't received payment, I'd send him the bill for the full amount, then take him to court, let the judge hash out what your owed, you have phone records of the harassment he gave you, show pictures of your burned down shop, if insurance is involved, you'll have that paperwork to show your waiting for them to act, if no insurance was involved, then ask the judge what you owe the guy. or what's fair? You have a receipt for the pump purchase, doctors instructions, a buddy to explain in court what took place, how things went down and if nothing else, let the judge decide what your owed, then there shouldn't be any moral dilemma on your part, what the law decides is how it goes down, end on decision. I'm not thinking it would too hard to prove you went above and beyond what anyone on earth would have done, how you were treated, and how things went down. I don't have a lot of faith in the legal system, but right now, I'm thinking your being had by a complete jerkwad, but that's just my opinion.
A heads up for you mechanics. A decent lawyer 2 weeks out of law school can discredit the typical disclaimers of "not responsible for loss due to theft, fire ECT". That's because under law you have a duty to safeguard a customers vehicle, equipment or parts. It's not their fault a shop burned, was robbed or taken by mother nature. All that disclaimer does is make some people think they can't do anything about a loss. This knowledge is based on being a former adjuster and having to settle claims due to those losses. The dividing line is betterment. That means that they are owed the value of what was lost. They had a used pump. What's the value of a used pump? Having to buy a new or reman one actually is betterment. So you or the insurance company has to eat the value of a used pump and the customer would pay the difference in a perfect world. Most often because in situations like this it take time and money to fight something in court the insurance company will often just pay the entire cost. Why spend 10K fighting a 1K write off plus having to deal with disgruntled customers, both current and potential? That's why you see things like the guy who broke into a home and then accidentally got locked in the garage for several days. While in jail for the breaking he sued the homeowner. The home owners insurance company paid 85K to settle as it was cheaper than fighting. Rick
Now that's just sick. Remember that the details often come down to state law, and as I was reminded recently, state law is less nanny state and more free for all the farther south you go. So your experience in MN and mine in WI might be similar to MI or New England, but it's a whole different ballgame in Texas. In this case, the customer would typically would have to weigh the cost of a decent lawyer against a new pump if he thought that's what he was entitled to.
Actually there is no such thing as a decent lawyer two weeks out of law school. Second, state laws determine what a business can be held liable for and many states rule that a contract for services can limit liability. That is why you sign work orders, which are contracts, at any car dealer, appliance repair shop and so on so forth. In this state, Washington State, when a business accepts property from a customer the term is called a bailment and the requirement is for due care and caution. So if a fire, theft, airplane crash, tornado, earthquake and on and on happens and negligence on the part of the bailee cannot be proven, then the bailor's insurance pays any covered loss. It is pretty cut and dried in most cases. The example of betterment is usually applied differently in most insurance claims I've worked on. In this state a betterment has to be measurable. You wreck your car and the insurance company finds a comparable vehicle of like kind and quality. The tires on the wrecked car have 95% of the tread worn off while the replacement car has new tires. The settlement would deduct the difference in the value of the tires. In the case of the fuel pump a likely settlement offer would only pay the cost of another core pump. There would not be a consideration of betterment because the insurance company would only need to make the claimant whole. A check would be written for settlement and it would be up to the claimant to obtain a working pump. The issue in this case is non performance of a service. Life gets in the way at times. The customer had the capability to take the asset to another shop when he learned of the reduced capability of the service provider and if the situation were dire, he should have done so. That fact that he didn't do that indicates the situation wasn't dire and would limit his ability to make the claim before a judge. At this point he received the asset apparently in working condition and needs to pay the bill. I am not an attorney but carried an insurance adjuster's license in this state for eighteen years. Payoffs that are described above is why the cost of insurance has skyrocketed. Anyone can make a claim and as long as it is kept below a certain threshold the insurance company pays it and dumps the extra costs on its customers. Pass a law that says the loser in court battles pays all costs and you would see the attorney bonanza of frivolous law suits go away in a hurry.
Boy isn't that the truth!
I haven't been on this thread in along time, so sorry for the delay.. I NEVER heard from the guy and I hold true to what I wrote on #24.. BUT EVERY TIME I THINK ABOUT IT.. I get sick to my stomach.. I never called him either, so I guess its a wash.. I'm out 1600.00 + time + labor and HE "probably" has a running tractor.. I'm STILL down with this back problem.. going on 5 months now.. The docs cured the sciatic problem THANK GOD.. that pain was unbearable... its a sad thing to see a 50+ years old man, curled up in a ball, crying..but they created more/different pain.. My left foot is numb, but getting better and I get an awful cramp in my "cheek"...quite often.. and the only thing the doc says is,.. You don't have THAT SHOOTING PAIN going down you leg tho, right??" "Here's another prescription, see you in 6 weeks"... But, back on track... I guess if the guy was gonna sue me, he'd of done it by now.?? I"M DEFINATLY NOT gonna persure it.. Who needs friends like that??? NOT ME.. I hope everyone is fine and in good health.. I'm around if you need me.. I don't get out of the chair much, but my fingers still work.. Lol {TPG**
Do not even think of past deal. You have enough on your plate. What about the shop,insurance and repairs? Post when you can good luck
Good riddance, often the best you can hope for.