Need to move about 25K yards about 1000ft. The big question is if a motor grader can actually haul on any reasonable incline or if we need to solely be looking at a pull scraper with pull tractor? Approx area is 1-1.5acres and 10-12ft deep. We can ramp the ends and will finish shape with an excavator. Soils is loam soil, no rock. I have no seat time on a scraper but vids don't look promising on motor scrapers. They REALLY need the rear wheels driven to be any good IMO but one can do the job, that seems an easier purchase for us.
This is the kind of work I specialize in. Would go in with my D8K's pulling Cat No. 80 Pans. A short hop of 1,000 feet makes this set up very cost effective. If the going got a bit tough would put D7 behind to push while loading. Also need a dozer to spread the material as it is placed by scrapers. I don't understand how you think a "motor grader" is going to do anything on this job. Grader is great for finish work and placing aggregate but nothing else. For finish shaping I would use a small dozer with six way blade.
Greg, ima thinkn he meant to say "motor scraper" instead of grader.
TS14 can be picked up for a low price. they can move a lot of dirt fast and cheap. It would work get in that soil. After the job you will have it for other work. A plus side to the terexs is they are easy to work on and parts are easy to come by. just my 2cents on it.
Yeah a ts-14 is a good choice, I'd a well maintained "b-d" model the g's are electrical nightmares, or at least the ones i was around were. If your going with a wheel scraper, better figure on having a decent sized dozer handy, both for loading and if you bogg one. I'd rent the largest 6 way dozer I could find, large d-6 or deere 850 w/ rippers that way you can finish with it and push um, and rip if you need to. From experience, 2,000yds per day isn't outa line for that type of work.
In engineering school we learned to take people at their word gramps. Granted what was said didn't make much sense. Some places it can get pretty wet at 10.0 to 12.0 feet from ground water. If it rains while the job is in progress you are royally screwed too because when doing pond like that there is no place for the water to go. You will more than likely need a push cat before this one is done if using rubber tire machine. Job like this I will stick with Cat and pan.
Some places around here, you can get 9.0 to 11.0 feet of water at 10.0 to 12.0 feet from ground water.
Just exactly what did you just say..."? I never went to engineering skool. What'd he just say Greg?
Got me on that one gramps. Must be more of that southern English we don't always understand in the chat room.
I simply replaced greg's "pretty wet" with 9-11 feet of water, saying that in places here, rather than hitting water 10-12 feet down, you hit water a foot down, and it fills as fast as you dig. Around here, you don't dig ponds w/ pans, you use a trackhoe and a big pump.
After that I will say that no kind of scraper is going to work unless somebody comes up with a way to make one float which is the last time I checked against the laws of physics. You are right. Trackhoe, big pump and some kind of off road hauler.
The question at hand here is if the motor scraper would even get enough traction and enough power to climb out of a pond dig? Or does this push a guy more towards a pull pan and tractor? I like the integrated style of the motor scraper but heard a LOT of stories about them not getting the job done. I just don't want to waste my time/money here. Are there no motor graders with the rear wheels driven? Seems that would be a huge improvement. Upon closer review of the Terex machines, it seems they are push/pull machines. I am not sure which are and which aren't but I know the old CAT 613s and such are not.
A motor scraper should climb out of the hole just fine depending on how steep the slope is, but they are helpless in the mud. The point Greg is trying to make (in his down his nose engineering manner) (no offense Greg, had a bad time with engineers this month) is that it is just as important to know wether there is groundwater present as it is to know about rock. It affects your choice of equipment greatly. In good conditions a scraper is way more effecient, but with an excavator and rough trucks you can move just about anything.
We have test holes in the area. Water table will be between 20-25ft. We will be digging to about 12ft at the most. I would expect moist soil due to the soil type but certainly not filling up the hole. I had another dirt hog we know bring up a point that the paddle scrapers do a good job of dragging the soil up with the paddles but the pull pans require brute force to push all the dirt up. The rear wheel drive machines sure look appealing but also look like a maintenance nightmare. I guess if an old CAT motor scraper will do the job, that would be great news!
if it was my job I would use a big excavator and some Volvo articulated dump trucks. That way everyone is at ground level so no worries about water in the hole
Gentlemen, Looks confusing, so just could not resist. Just wanted to add some considerations to your original question about building a pond, the first answer you recieved is probably the best one. There does not apprear to be a lot a familiarity on your part with moving dirt. Motor scrapers are great when you have dry solid ground , no ground water, no rain clouds and a longer distance to haul, this is always been good method because your not handling the dirt twice, but to be effective you will need a push cat, twin engine or not. Taking the previous comments into consideration, does not matter how steep the hole or pond is, you can never cut steeper than the machine can get out of, any these machines are powerful and are designed to haul dirt up hill and down hill providing it is dry. If you want super steep sides after, then clean it out with a track hoe, and load that in the scraper, simple. If you have never ran a motor scraper and you attempt this task and it starts raining you will regret both choices the running the motor scraper and the rain. Rubber tired machines are NOT good in wet or rainy ground. When you say "we" are you attempting to do this soley on your own, or do you have helpers?? If you are totally on your own, and you want to do this by yourself with your own money, then a Cat and scraper, or take up the fellows offer about D8's and the 80 pans. This has been a tried and proven method since the 1930's-40's, our counrty was built with cat's and scrapers and motor scapers, you'll be a lot happier if it rained on your project. That is why pratically every cable scraper has been saved and coverted to hydraulics, Model 80 pans were last made in about 1954 and they are still working. If for some reason it all came to an end due to unforseen circiumstances, like huge water, or rocks then you can always use a hoe and doze it away after or loads trucks. Nothing wrong with Hoes and trucks, they are big production with lots of folks busy and you will still need a dozer for your project, these are best for severve conditions, or limitations such as, small limiting areas, slopes, trees, mud, rocks, lakes, narrow road building, communities, loading hauling for great distances. Same goes for also buying a hoe, you should know something about them, including running one, a Steel Tracked (Cat and Scraper for short hauls) in some folks eyes maybe slower but it is pretty forgiving, fool proof and very effective, and if you choose you could do this whole project all on your own. Good Luck with the pond Cheers!
To answer your question, you are not talking to a rookie dirt mover BUT, as I mentioned before, I have no seat time in a scraper. Does that mean I can't get the job done? I don't think so. I guess I am here to get a feel for their limitations. My experience is commercial golf coarse, municipal water systems and drainage, bridges, etc. I am just not a specialist in moving mountains which seems to be what dirt hog specialists do. The hoe will certainly be used for final shaping, that is a given. The main issue is my "help" will be limited. Mostly done myself in which a scraper can be a one man show. Once the bulk of the material is moved, I can get help while I run the hoe and can probably get a dozer (you call a cat?) out there to help shape. From what I gather though, a motor scraper or pull pan either one would require a ripper? Regarding wet ground, you are preaching to the choir on that one. I have dug ponds before but smaller. D3 and 950 loader did those but different situation.
OK, Sorry, was not trying to offend anyone, that is why I do not answer chat pages. I was only trying to point out all the facts to form a basis for the forum response from experience so anyone could understand, whether they agreed or not. I have already pointed out the limitations, so it is up to you. No, you do not need a ripper unless it is very hard or rocks, srcapers load better in firmer conditions, you will drop down the center cutting edge or sometimes called a frost bit to assist loading, they do not load wet dirt, soft stuff and or sand very well. Also, any scraper action needs traction, ripping losens the soil and will not delivery max traction, doent mean you can't get the job done, as you put it. Not to worry, I won't offend anyone else, only trying to help from experience and by owning a few of the machines, and operating, cable operated pull scrapers, cable operated motor scapers, hydraulic scrapers, twin engine scrapers, from 10 yards to 50 yards, from D6's to D9's pulling pans, motor scrapers, Letourneau Super C with a 250 cummins, Allis Chalmers, Caterpillar DW20 and DW21's, 627's, 631's, 641's, 630's, 657, Euclids,Terex, TS14, TS18, TS24, so last Forum chat here!
I was not trying to **** back at anyone, only trying to cover what I thought I did I guess. I don't think I explain myself very well though most of the time. Hard to get what is in my head into this keyboard. Thanks for the reply and opinions.
Oldtrucks1946 stay around we need some of the old timers to chat with on this forum you go back along ways and it would be a shame to lose your knowledge and input
If you are going to work by yourself then a paddle wagon may be the best choice. If you have traction they will load themselves. I have limited experience with pull scrapers but they do seem limited in their ability to self load very hard material. I prefer the hoe/ truck method for reasons I stated before, you can move almost anything anywhere. I bought my ADTs in the same situation as you, I had 30,000 yds to move, a hoe, and a dozer. I thought about scrapers but the ADTs gave me versatility in what I bid in the future. I do have to get pretty skinny to get a true dirt job, but can make it back on jobs suited to my fleet. You do need truck drivers, self loading would make a long job. I don't think anyone is trying to tell you what to do, just pointing out some of the unknowns that affect your decision. Its kind of like someone wanting you to give a quote on a pond over the phone without seeing the site, I just think of all the negatives.
Pond Building Crawler w/ hyd. converted pull type scaper (D8 w/ Cat 80) - Very effective in short distances. 1,000 ft. haul is at the outer limits of range. Cost to operate is higher because of steel undercarriage cost and you must have a good sized dozer (200+ HP and big bowl 18 + CY). With a good set of pads, the crawler can move dirt in most soil conditions unless you run into high moisture conents and water tables. Skill level need is above average to average. Works well on inclines. Difficult to rent the pull scraper, might have to purchase and then sell when completed. Plenty on the market and it is a buyers market. Self Loading Scraper with open bowl - Needs dry conditions compared to crawler scraper. Less operating cost than crawler scraper. Depending on soil conditions, might need pusher crawler to help load. Sort of a dying breed as has been replaced by excavator and haul trucks. Self Loading Elevating Scraper - Rubber tired, with chain loader and underloader. Can cycle quickly but with less capacity (11 cubic yards). Pulverizes soil and can compact with tires to get very good compaction. Can self load with out pusher. Must be skilled operated on inclines or it will end up as a side dumper. Difficult to build pond with because of running on the edge of slope. Works well in combination with crawler and pull scraper. Can buy inexpensively. Needs dry to medium moisture contents for tires to load. Ag Tractor and Pull Type Scraper Ag. tractor can be rubber tire or rubber tracked. Rubber track have higher operating cost than rubber tires but has more traction. Need dry conditions, sandy soils, topsoil, or dry/silty clay. Most ag tractors are not designed to operate as scraper haulers and were design to pull ag equipment at higher speeds. The scraper special tractors have been pulling scrapers and have been worked hard. Excavator and Haul Trucks Need experience operator on track hoe. Less experience need for ADT's. Need dozer to level and grade. High initial cost because you need larger excavator, at least 2 ADT's and dozer, but you can move a lot of dirt. Also the excavator can install overflow culvert which most ponds/dams have. The excavator is an efficent loader and can mix soils with different soil contents and has the best selection and control of loading material.
no need for a dozer why use a dozer when you have a big excavator ? Any competant excavator driver can do all the finishing needed.
If you are building the pond in lifts you will need the dozer to level the piles as you build. I agree a good excavator operator can finish grade.
I am from the UK, now retired and living in SE Asia. The terminology used on the forum is (excuse the expression,) is foreign to me.If this job was mine the excavator would dig to the required levels sitting on the top,,no need for lifts or piles. No need to go into the excavation at all.In the UK the only place you will see a dozer or motor scraper is on a new build motorway or similar. Most work is done now using the tracked excavator and articulated dump trucks like the Volvo
I really appreciate the continued thoughts on the the excavation. I am getting pushed back on the time line so probably still have a 2mo before I have to move on this. Yep, do have the 225 excavator to use. Not the biggest or fastest but paid for... I think the bucket (42") is about 1.2yd IIRC. As said, I might be flying solo for some of this but the decisions made are purely based on costs and time. However, to save 50% and burn a few extra days, that is a no brainer. I think from where we started this thread, we have changed to pond cut from not one, but two smaller ponds so actual haul distance will be shorter but 500 ft is still pretty realistic. I am still trying to calculate cyclic rates I think. As I might have mentioned, soil is sandy loam soil with more clay loam in some areas but certainly not 100* sticky clay. It should dig pretty easy. I am estimating 3 buckets/min or close to 216yd/hr if I am on my game. I would guess that is pushing it though. Maybe back that off to 175. SO... That becomes quite truck dependent or we are wasting time/fuel. Looking at a smaller self loading or "paddle" scraper, I think you would be very hard pressed to touch that actual "load" rate per hr including haul. I am estimating a 5min min cycle for 500ft for an 11-13yd machine. that is in the 140-160yd/hr range but is moved and done other than some minor shaping. Great thing is a one man band on this one if it works... For fuel, I usually go back to my hard math which I calculate the engine HP operating at 35% eff. For the 225 that works out to 140HP / .35 X746 x 3.412(btu) / 140,000 (btu/gal). That works out to a balls out, never give up fuel rate of 7 gal/hr. Probably closer to 5-6 gal/hr. I really have no idea on the scraper but probably much more. Maybe 15gal/hr. Looking at the dump truck fuel rates, it might be more of a wash of actual fuel used here or even the scraper being a better deal. Unless I can pull a jack from my hat, any ATDs are probably out but standard DTs can certainly work on this deal but with lower load ability. As already noted, 1 truck would not cut it if we wish to get done in by christmas 2012. hmmmm..... Still thinking on this. Maybe with the 500ft deal, that would move more in favor of a loader? That is at least cycle independent of the hoe and reduced at least one operating machine. the loader can also do some grade work too. Problem is I don't have one sitting around and I think at least a 950 would be needed to do much good here.
your 225 will carry a bigger bucket than 42 inch, rent a proper (we call a muck shifting bucket in the UK )big bucket
How big are you thinking? 60"? I was thinking of adding some side biters to the bucket that could probably add about .3-.4yds to the bucket capacity when heaping but I just don't have any other buckets to throw at it and they are not exactly easy to find..
60 inch is exactly what I was thinking.Have you tried renting a bigger bucket?