Situation: Residential removal/replacement of concrete flatwork where we are driving over the 4"-6" edge of the broken concrete most of the time. Turning 180 degrees on the concrete (we spread some loose dirt to aid in slippage) to load a truck and repeat till we get to a point where we can just go forward and backward but still driving over the broken edge of the concrete. I don't forsee much use in real muddy conditions. I also do snow removal and heard that they are just as good or better than tires for that.:beatsme Currently we have a Cat 262A and recently we have run into several projects where we had to rent (Cat 257B) to get the job done because of limiting the mess in a yard or the subgrade was too soft for our wheeled machine. The benefit of the track machine besides not getting stuck was that even though we always put in 2"+ of rock, we would have to put in more rock just to get our machine in and out to do what we need to do. I was wondering if anyone could tell me, with there experiences/expertice, what might be some of the problems with the track machines in this situation. When some repairs might start showing up? How much some of the repairs could run? How long (hours) I would expect to get out of a set of tracks versus tires (which we will have 1500 hrs on 1 set of Galaxy Bulky Hulks now). How much are a set of replacement tracks? Are tracks hard to replace? Recommendations? Any or all other information would be greatly appreciated and helpful.
I can tell you that if you're working on paved surfaces or broken concrete you're going to toast the tracks in a hurry. Tracked machines are highly specialized machines and should be taken as such. We had a 277B that I calculated to cost us right around $10 more per hour for undercarriage replacement than a comparably sized wheeled machine. Really need to be making up that $10 an hour in productivity or doing jobs that a wheeled machine absolutely cannot do otherwise you're throwing money down the tube.
Exactly what I imagined it might be and per hour was exactly what i was looking for. Tires are at about $1.50-$1.70 per hour and very minimal maintenance. I just wasn't sure wether the technology recently compensated for this situation and exactly how much it all costed. THANKS
Any type of hard material will shorten any manufacturer's track life. However Cat does not recommend the use of the MTL on any type of rock. Some Cat track owners are spending $8K + a year on under carriage maintenance. There are manufacturers out there that have steel ilders, rollers and even steel tabs on the tracks. Track life really depends on the conditions the machine is operating in. If traction/production (which equals revenue) is most important then choose a machine with an under carriage than can stand the most abuse. Regardless of track or tire, it all wears and needs replaced.
I have been talking people out of track machines for quite a while. I come from Fargo ND, which has some of the stickiest least abrasive gumbo for soil you will ever find. I have been told that the market there has one of if not the highest ratios of track skidsteers to wheel skidsteers sold in the country. I have seen a ton of people buy track machines because everyone else had one. Then I have seen them go broke, because of repair costs(this is on all the major brands). IMHO they do not work nearly as well for snow removal as people tell you they do. When doing snow removal you wear the tracks out very quickly. The only applications I recommend track machines for are landscaping, or other applications where you are constantly on soft dirt. I have seen so many tracks get shredded by rebar, rock, concrete, and other materials. In ideal conditions you should get about 3 times the life out of rubber tracks as you would out of rubber tires. Which offsets the hgiher price of tracks. I just have not seen many people who only use their track machine in ideal conditions, and I have not seen many people get that kind of life out of their tracks. You also have quite a bit more maintenance with a track system vs. a set of tires. For the most part the only people we sell track machines to already have wheeled skidsteers, and are using their track machines for certain jobs only. I am not aware of any of our customers who are still pushing snow with track machines, because the track seems to wear very quickly. The other thing to be aware of on a track machine, is from my experience they tend to depreciate in value much quicker than a wheel machine. So you have more initial cost, more cost to run per hour, and less value left when you decide to trade your machine.
I would say there is a place for both machines definetly. Tires or tracks. I do know from experiance and have owned both machines. That our Cat 257B skid steer with tracks plows better than any model with tires that i have ever used. But for some reason our Case (which i love) doesnt plow for beans , as far as traction. I think maybe the Cats tread profile or the suspended under carriage must make the differance. Regardless , i dont think tracked or tired skid steers should be compared becuase they are so different in what they will do or where they will work.
The tracked machines out here work well in steep ground or slick materials. However the wear problem is real big. It is very common for the cost per hour for the undercarriage to be close to the same as one would have on a large crawler tractor. The crawlers will do so much more than the wheeled machines but many owners don't charge enough for that extra capability. They don't accrue enough money to pay for the replacement parts and when everything is all worn out they can't afford to go to work. I haven't seen the resale value issue be as big as mentioned earlier. The problem I see is the condition of the undercarriage is the reason for the low resale values. A machine with a good bottom end will still bring high dollars, but no one trades them in or sells them outright with a good undercarriage. I have seen a few rubber tired skid steers with steel ecotracks installed. I'm sure they add strain to the drive train but think they also might be more cost effective in slick conditions than the tracked machines. Has anyone tried putting regular chains on skid steers for plowing snow? I was thinking that might be better than running expensive rubber tracks against gravel roads.
I ran a CASE 440 with heavy duty chains all last Winter. We pushed some snow but mostly it was doing clearing and excavating operations on a ski hill. They work great and if you buy high quality chains they seem to last. We were not operating on asphalt so the wear would of course be higher. They were very helpful in the mud as well. The key is buying top shelf chains. The lighter duty chains don't hold up.
I know an operator that just picked up a Takeuchi TL140 and threw on a set of 'winter tracks' which were cheaper than OEM. The winter tracks have a softer compound to stick to snow and ice which would not last very long on gravel. He is getting ride of his 257B which has been costing him 9000/yr in undercarriage maintenance. He estimates his annual costs for the Tak to be 6000 every two years.(talking Cdn dollar but things are pretty much the same now adays!)
The 140 is fairly strong machine. The owner of the 257 is most likely going to take a bath on the sale of his machine unless his undercarriage is in really good condition. They don't seem to bring much on the open market. I think the word is out on those machines.
We have a Cat 287 where i work. Recently the tracks and some of the other undercarriage components were replaced. The machine has close to 1,000 hours on it. I'm not sure of the exact cost of the replacement parts, but it was way up there. Our machine also gets used in all kinds of terrain, using it on asphalt/rock/concrete chew the tracks up. As others have said, you'd have to figure in X amount of dollars an hour for undercarriage repairs into the rate the machine gets.
I have a NewHolland C185 ctl with 300 hours on it , i use it alot in loose sand and can already notice significant u/c wear.
I had a Gehl CTL80 (Takeuchi TL150) very nice machine, lots of power, but the tracks were gone in 1000 hours. The replacement tracks and sprockets were about $5000 with labor. So for this machine the track cost alone was $5 per hour. I will not own a Compact track loader again until someone makes one with a steel undercarriage, and maybe rubber blocks on the track pads. The rubber tracks seem to hold up quite well on the excavators, but when they are put on a machine that has to move to work, they just fall apart. If you have a job where there is deep sand, or mud and you need the tracks, just make sure you have your rate high enough to pay for the tracks. RT
My salesman just returned from ASVs annual dealer meeting and said that ASV just announced an undercarriage program that reduces the operating cost of their undercarriage by up to 40% on all of their models. He also said that ASV just released a new RC60 that has a top speed of 11mph.
It really amazes me that nobody has built a CTL with a steel undercariage and segmented tracks with rubber blocks. Even Struck's kit machine has that kind of track, while real production machines play with rubber bands. And what's with PLASTIC track rollers? A steel, lubricated and sealed chain with rubber blocks in track pads seems like the best way to go.
Maybe it's a cost and machine weight issue. I own an RC50 with over 1500 hours on it. I have had to replace the rear idlers, but the tracks are still original. My machine weighs in at around 5,300lbs with a bucket and I'm sure that it would weigh quite a bit more with a steel undercarriage with rubber pads on the tracks.
Takeuchi offered steel tracks on the TL26 and no one bought them. Plus it was a hell of a ride. If you have not looked at the Takeuchi undercarriage I would recommend it. The rollers are larger and the track has steel pads the the rollers ride on. So you have steel on steel track design. It is by far the best track design on the market. But you won't get the ride of a cat. But you will spend a 1/3rd of the price to replace the undercarriage.
What do you base your 1/3 claim on? I can't speak for the CAT customers but I do own an RC50 with over 1700 hours on it now and the tracks are still original. I do know that the Bobcat tracks (I was a salesman for 8 years) and the Takeuchi tracks last up to about 900hours on the high end and most ove the rollers at or before 2000 hours (especially the front and rear idlers). I see plenty of the larger ASV RC100s in my area and I'd be willing to say that the 1/3 the cost claim you make is probably stretching it a bit. I've even seen RC100 tracks with 1400hrs on them doing nothing but brush cutting. I'm not calling you a liar but I'd like to see you support your claim.
A set of tracks for a RC50 is $4,400 dollars. The rollers are $380 a piece for a total of $3040 a total undercarriage $7,400. Which will not last more than 2,000 hours. I have TL126, TL140, TL150 and the tracks for the TL126 comparable to the RC50 our $1800 a set and the rollers can be rebuilt for $50 a piece.The sprockets are $175 a piece The TL126 machine has over 3,000 hours on it and I bought it new. I have only replaced the tracks and sprockets one time. I have never rebuilt or replaced any of the rollers.
The rollers and drive sprockets should last a couple thousand hours on the Takeuchi's. That is why I bought a TL130. They are just bulletproof when it comes to the undercarriage compared to other track machines. I love mine and only complaint is the cab is a little loud when the door is shut.
This has allot to do with how the machine was run. When operating a track machine you can not run it the same as a wheeled machine. Their is a different way to run them to prolong track life. You can not just spend them in a 360 turn, even on dirt this is hard for the tracks. You need to do 3 pint turns when ever possible. When going into a pile of dirt you need to operate the bucket to fill it and not just ram the pile and sit their and spend the tracks in the dirt. If you respect the machine the tracks can last up to 2000 hrs. I have seen people destroy the tracks on a Cat 267 in less than 300 hrs. This is why rental company's don't rent the ASV or Cat MTL very often. Many rent out the Takeuchi's and Bobcats sense the tracks are built with steel on steel where ever contact points are.
I own both cat and takeuchi machines. Last year cat had a recall on the undercarriages. I was told by my cat service manager that the job would have cost almost a $21,000.00 if it weren't a recall. parts and labor. i have 3 287Bs left and 2 Tl150s. as soon as the cats reach the 3000hr mark they will be off my team. everything else i own is a cat but no more ctls
What about the Takeuchi, do you like it? I own a TL130 and love it's power and control over the entire machine. The dealer told me the TL150 would be a horse compared to my little TL130 so I am wanting to give one a try one day to feel the power.
ASV has come out with a complete package, that retails for 40% less than individual pieces bought seperately for undercarriages. The machine that will do 11 mph is a PT 60, but what would concern me is a much greater wear rate at those speeds. Who owns a Case CTL out there? Would welcome any feedback on these.
I love the TL150. it is a beast. I have owned a bobcat t300 and a handfull of cat 287s. my personal opinion is they don't compare. the only things i will say negative about the takeuchi is the ride is hard and it does more damage to the ground than the cat. not really good to run over nice sod lawns.
I have not seen too many case CTL in my area. I think since they came out I have seen Two running and that was it. For some reason not too popular.
I wouldn't worry too much about the ground speed and the wear associated with it on the ASV machines. The undercarriage sprocket and track are entirely different than the other types of machines because they are designed for higher speeds. There is a guy near me to the south that has an SR80 that does 12.5mph and he already has almost 800 hours and his tracks and sprockets look fine. It is true about the packages that ASV is offering. I have a little over 1700 hours on my RC50 and the tracks are still original. I have replaced the rear idlers but if I buy the package that ASV sells for the RC50/60 (now the PT50/60) my operating cost at 2000 hours will be around $5 per hour. That is hard to beat. I sold Bobcats for 8 years and I can tell you with a straight face that none of the smaller framed Bobcats T180/190 could come close to that cost. I think the RC50 package retails for around $7400 and it includes the whole undercarriage already assembled except for the drive motor. You just attach it to the axles. By the way I've always thought that the undercarriage costs of the ASV machines were blown out of proportion. I've neer seen an ASV machine that has needed a complete undercarriage change as many of the competitors suggest (even Bobcat when I sold for them) I sold against them for a long time, won deals and lost deals and the things that Bobcat put out against them didn't really materialize in the field. Because of that I ultimately ended up buying an RC50 even though I still own a bobcat skid. I always thought it was a matter of dealers changing out components that were still good especially CAT dealers that started to drive the perception that the ASV machines were so much more expensive to operate than the rigid style of undercarriage. These ae my opinions based on my experience selling over 200 bobcat tracked machines in the upper midwest where they are quite popular.
I'm assuming you must have meant bobcat dealers? I'm just a little confused by that comment since ASV and CAT have the exact same track designs.
My opinion is based on the fact that it always seemed that the ASV dealers knew more about their machines when I sold against them (especially explaining the differences in their uc to the rigid uc that Bobcat has) compared to the CAT dealers It was more difficult to sell against ASV than CAT head to head. Against CAT I usually just had to beat them on price or finance. My opinion was also that since most ASV dealers were small their service deptartments were more focused on the in ands outs of the uc and the local CAT dealer had their general mechanics working on their compact equipment. I'm not saying that CAT mechanics aren't good because I know they are but its much easier to focus on a small lineup of equipment than it is if you work on everything from a 216 skid to a D11. I'm definitely not bashing CAT but only offering my opinions based on my experiences in my old sales territory.
The cost is the same for me after 2000 hours versus my T190, both machines would need over $6000 in repairs and replacement, the only difference is my Cat will be cheaper as I can replace individual parts like roller sleeves and rollers with out wearing other parts down faster. If you had to replace a pair of sprockets on a CTL, the tracks would wear even faster to the point you would have to replace it at the same time, whereas CAT/ASV MTL's if roller sleeves from the "squirrel cage" have to be replaced, no big deal, it won't wear anything out any more faster than normal operating conditions.
Just make sure when it comes time to replace the rollers try to replace all at the same time. We used to replace a couple at a time on the 267 were I used to work and then it seemed to wear out the new ones twice as fast. Also we had problems with bearings going out in them and should have replaced all the bearings at once but the owner had us do them as they failed. This ultimately meant that after one was replaced another on the same side would fail in the next 20 Hrs. which meant pulling off the same track again on the same side......:Banghead You see the point. I say when they wear out just replace all of them and be trouble free. In the end you will have to replace those rollers anyways so why not do it while it is in the shop all tore down where you can get to the others easy.:drinkup
I was looking at the Case CTL'S before I bought the Takeuchi, I demoed one and was impressed with the performance, then I started asking around and herd to many horror story's for the amount of time that they have been out. A freind works at the Case dealer and confirmed that there has been alot of recall's, started stoping by jobsites and asking people who were running them and herd more bad stuff. Then I was talking to a diffrent dealer and he said that he would not take a Case CTL in on trade or a New Holland. In the end I bought the Takeuchi, More people recomended the Tak/Gehl/Mustang than any other brand, plus they had a better warranty and the price was cheaper than the competition.
What problems did you hear of specifically. The CASE ctls have been selling well up here. All of them have been 440 CTs. I have run them and they are without equal performance wise.
Put a Takeuchi TL140 up against that 440CT and it will blow it away. Even the smaller TL130 could give it a good challenge. Has anyone heard of any Final Drive issues with the Case? That is a known problem for first time machines new to the CTL market like Case is now.
Ksss, first of I want to say that I am a Case fan, We own a Case loader and have had a Case skidder in the past, I just don't want to get in a brand fight. A good freind of mine is a Case tech and has gone to Racine and went through Skid steer classes there, So I demoed a 440 and a 450 and really liked them, my only complaint was the narrow cab and I did not like how the front end floated on the 440 in the mud with a bucket full. I was pretty sure I was going to be the proud owner of a new Case especially having a freind that should know the machines. Then I got talking to others and herd about driveline problems, Went and talked to another guy and his had welds cracking on the booms, then my buddy said there were a few in the shop with bad motors. I just did not feal comfortable about buying a machine that I wanted to be keeping for a few years after hearing the problems I have heard. I do not like how Case is always changing there machines like they have the last ten years, I liked the Tak because it's proven and unchanged for the most part. I hated going Japanese but it seamed like the only way to go. The Tak was cheaper in price and had a better warranty, I will be buying a new wheeled skidder this year and I don't know what I want but I will be looking at a Case for sure.
No I am not looking for a brand war, I was honestly curious what issues you have heard of. I am a TK guy as well. I was part of the testing of the 440CT and the prototype machine overwhelmed everything else that we ran it against (TK140, CAT277B, BCT250). When I say that I am refering to excavating ability, other machines shined in other areas. That machine has been a barn burner here, incredible power in a smaller machine. The narrow cab is an issue that will not be going away anytime soon. It does not bother me as much but I wish it was wider. CASE has not changed enough in some areas in my mind. I have owned over 16 CASE machines since 1995. The cabs are finally getting the attention that they have needed for years. The series 3 machines are addressing some of the issues I have in general. Mostly the cabs are what I have issue with. We work these machines real hard in some very demanding places and I don't think any makes a machine more durable then CASE (at least in the models that I buy). I have never owned a CT or any tracked machine. I just bought a set of VTS tracks and plan on going that way instead of the dedicated tracks for now anyway. The guy that had a boom crack was that on a 445? The loader arms on the 445 and 445CT are going back to the 95XT/465 like they used to be. This change has been made on the series 3 machines. TK makes a durable track loader no doubt about it.
The design on the 445CT looks the same as the 95XT/465 but way smaller. The arms are very small almost too small in my opinion to be on a track machine which will be put in high demanding areas for work. If they are cracking then hopefully they will beef them up some. I am sure Case will address this issue since they would not want a reputation for cracking booms.
I did think that it was cool that they gave the 440 as much power as the 450 makes for a stout machine. I am pretty sure the guy with the weld cracks had a 440. He is a owner operator that does flatwork seams like a guy that takes care of his stuff and does not abuse, but tearing out concrete can be hard on machine's. could have been a lemon, any company can have them. Ksss have you ever ran a 420 wheeled mavhine? that is the size I will be looking for later this year, wondering if it is like the 60xt wich I did not like, I thought it was to tippy and jerky like small Bobcat's. Wondering if the 420 is worth looking at. I kind of thought Case went backwards on there smaller machine's from the 1845's. I will be using it to clean roads and snow removal, and other work that track machine's are not good for.
I have never run a 420. I spoke with CASE a couple weeks ago and was told that that machine has been dramatically improved. The specs as it sits right now is basicly an 1845C. I have not seen the specs of the Series 3 machine just was told that it has been made a better machine. Did CASE stand behind the loader arms? I would hope so.