I am new as backhoe owner. I just bought this for my yard project. I feel it was very weak to move up on to a hill before. I had to push the fuel padle all the way down to drive it up. Yesterday, I tried to start it, it won't move either forward or backward no matter which gear. But the loader and hoe work fine though. I am trying to fix it myself, but no idea where goes wrong. Thanks for anyone who can help!
Simple thing to do is to check the transmission fluid in it. I'm not sure how its done on a Case 580 as we've owned Cat for the past 15 years.
I checked it. It is yellow and quite thick fluid. what should I look about it?
not absolutely sure on the case, but it sounds like you have water in the oil. Most of the hyrdaulic/ transmission oil is clear and at least the JD303 equivilant is roughly about 20 weight +/- so it is not overly thick and pours pretty easily. You need to change the fluid (probably all the way around) and filters. If that doesn't help, than there are plenty of Case guys on here that will help you out as far as checking it out further. Most backhoes don't have much if any power in the upper gears. If you get it into the 1-2 gears and it still won't make it move than you have some problems.
Sounds like possible water in the fluid. I would drain it, flush it then fill it with the proper fluid.
Thanks all of you. I'll do the transmission fluid and see.
I found these two caps in the cab floor. took the pics and upload here.
The stick from 1
closer
I'm not real familiar with the B series, mostly worked on D's and up. The caps in the pic look like they're for the gearboxes, your describing a problem with the fwd/rev shuttle trans. Look in the engine compartment for a dipstick around the rear of the engine, like you would see on an older car. Or you could get under the machine and you'll see the shuttle trans bolted to the flywheel housing, the you should see where the dipstick tube goes to check it. It should have Dexron or maybe hyd oil in it. Ggraham and Goose are good Case guys, maybe they'll jump in here.
the stick from 2
Yeah man, that's some nasty looking stuff! You need to drain your gearboxes and refill with Tractor/trans fluid. Might have to do it a couple of times to flush all that out. And you need to replace the boot on the gearbox shifter, that's a prime source of water ingress into the gearbox.
I guess that the 1 is transmission fluid stick and the 2 is torque converter fluid stick. The fluid from 2 looks not as clear as TCS hydraulic fluid, might be something wrong there? I might need to service both of them? For diagnosis, please let me know, if you want to see more other pic's. Thanks.
Hi, ATCOEQUIP, you are talking about replacing the transmission fluid in red circle spot 1 right? should I take care the fluid in spot 2?
Yeah, you need to replace both. You've got water in your oil. But we still haven't got to your problem of not being able to move. Even with water in the oil, you should at least get some movement at cold start up. I'm at the Case website right now looking at diagrams, I see the B model is nothing like the D series and up, which is what I'm familiar with. From what I'm seeing on the parts pages, the B series offered a mechanical shuttle or a power shuttle. I don't know which you have, nor do I have any experience with the B series so there's not much tech help I can offer.
Mine has power shuttle. Thanks!
I wish someone with experience with the B would jump in here. This looks like what you might have on your mahcine. It shows the convertor and the fwd/rev clutch pack. You can see the dipstick that looks like the one you have just in front of the 4 speed shifter.
I have Just bought a 580b and I have been fixing it up by changing all the fluids. My manual says that your No.1 dip stick is the transmission /trans-axle and it takes 80/90w gear oil. The No.2 is the power shuttle it take TCH or the equivalent universal tractor fluid. You should get a shop manual or operators manual from the net somewhere it would help a lots with all the right servicing issues
That's some good info right out of the book 100mileBob, the differential is using gear oil and the shuttle trans/4 speed is using TCH or tractor/trans. The oil is still secondary to me at this point, I'm more concerned with "not moving". When I look at the parts diagrams I see a pump that is driven by the torque convertor when the engine is running. When you select fwd or rev, the selector valve sends oil pressure to the clutch pack that you have selected, either fwd or rev. It's unlikely that both fwd and rev clutch packs have gone bad at the exact same time, so I tend to think they're not the problem. More likely there is a problem with pump, control valve, or linkage to control valve. I do agree with the first step, get that nasty oil out of there and get some fresh oil in it. Find the cheapest thing you can for now, because I'm certain your going to have to drain it at least one more time to flush that stuff out of there.
Hi 100mileBob, I notice that there are two number 2 plugs located on bottom as shown in the diagram ATCOEQUIP uploaded and both of them need to be unplugged in order to drain the transmission fluid out, right? Also, there is a third plug, the same number 2 part, but located on upper side, I don't know what that is used for? Thanks for help!
airr, you can get these diagrams at the Case website, http://www.casece.com/wps/portal/casece/LandingPage . Click; North American English, then click "search for parts". Type in 580B in the Model box and click search, then click on 580...with shuttle trans. You can take it from there.
Airr, Does your shuttle pressure guage work on the dash? If so, it should be in the green, engine idling. If it is, push on the clutch pedal(dump valve) and the guage pressure should drop to zero. Let your foot off the pedal and the pedal should come all the way back to the stop. Pressure on the guage should also return immediately. Shift to forward or reverse when idling, what does your guage do? It should only drop the width of the needle and then come back up immediately. If you don't have a working guage on the dash, you need to get one or buy a 0-500psi guage and a length of 1/4" hydraulic hose with it. Some 580B shuttle problems are a plugged pump intake screen. Debris can accumulate under the screen which is only the width of a finger above the floor of the torque tube. Phil
Well when I drained mine I called my local case dealer he said to drain both compartments. ther was just a little in the forward drain and the a lot came out the rearward drain. This is called the torque tube not the transmission. The transmission is with the transaxle at the back. Then I added 16 quarts of Case TCH ( universal tractor fluid)
Nice pics of the pick up tube screen Phil. I was hoping a "B" person would jump in here. The water in his oil is a problem, but I'm more concerned with him "not moving at all" at this point. I just don't know enough about the B to be of much help.
Thanks, hopefully he doesn't have any cooler problems. Most 'B' shuttle oil never gets changed until there's a problem, maybe it's just years of accumulated moisture. The 'third plug' airr is the timing window plug I believe. I don't believe the 'B' has a converter drain but it's easy to check with the front oil drain plug out, have someone turn the motor over slowly, while looking up in the drain hole. There is also a shuttle filter in behind the radiator grill and that should be changed too (NAPA 1518). Airr, when you reply, to answer the gauge questions, please include more detail about the how this problem came about. Was it sudden or gradual? I'm assuming it is a shuttle problem... does the machine roll easily? Phil
Same thing happened on my old 480C, I thought I had some pretty severe problems. I put one quart of dextron in and I was back in business. Like Atco said, look for a dipstick right below your side access panels below the frame, that's were it was on my C.
ATCOEQUIP, Thank you for your instruction! Phil, Thanks for your help! I'll do what you wrote here after I finish the oil change. Now, my backhoe has two compartments, torque converter and gearbox, fully empty. I drained them 24 hr each. : ) I'll buy the 80w90 and TCH oil tomorrow and fill it. Just heard that Walmart is selling the 80w90 oil for $12/Gal, well, pretty cheap. : ) 100mileBob, I drained a whole bucket, about 5 gal, from the torque converter. I use a empty TCH bucket for it, so I know. I don't know why you only added 16 quarts in it. I got more then 5 Gal out from the gearbox, because one bucket is not even enough to take it, I had to use a milk bottle to take the rest. Indeed, both oil coming out with some water.
I would put the cheapest oil I could find in it, at least for the first go around. I think once you get it going, you'll want to run it for a little to wash oil around in the gear case's, then drain it again. Might have to do it a couple of times until the oil runs clear, then you can put the good stuff in it.
Any suggested oil do you have? Today, I went to Walmart, they are selling a super tech brand, gear lubricant SAE 80W-90 GL-5. I've heard that the GL-5 can rot brass metal. should I use it? Another cheap oil I found is super tech automatic transmission fluid, can I use this for the gearbox? Thanks.
I don't think it really matters because we're not going to leave it in there anyway, all we want is some kind of suitable fluid to "drive the machine a little and mix/rinse the watery oil that's still hanging around in there. Then you need to drain it. If it's still fairly cloudy when you drain it, I'd do it again until the oil is clear. Your going to waste some oil, that's why I recommend finding the cheapest you can find. Once it drains clear, re-fill with the good stuff. ATF fluid would work fine for rinsing the gearbox/shuttle trans section. As for the differential housing (I assume thats the other dipstick toward the rear), you could use a cheap motor oil for that until it clears up, then re-fill with gear oil.
clean the water out save u money is what atco is sayying....filters and good oil last but you need and we need to know where and how water got there.... it helps to drain torque converter too but it not easy as explained above get some one to turn engine by starter but bump it while u look for plug on torque conv ... also first oils you charge make sure you get it hot not moving forward or backward just running at normal rpm shut it off drain after its cool oil is lighter then water and please do this cut filters open at top where the filter screws on show us what u see on filament inside separting then paper in side yes you will get metal in cutting it but in the v shaped grooves you will see metal or clutch
One likely culprit for ingress of water is that boot on the 4 speed shift lever. REPLACE IT PRONTO!
you guys really know your stuff!!! HELP!!! i am looking for a diagram or some instruction on how to time a CASE 580E rubber tire back hoe 4 cyl with injector pump.... i know it does not sound like i know what i am talking about and you are probably right!! i am trying to help my dad who is a little technologically challenged....lol i also tryed the case website and it wont let me do anything at the landing page.. any help is appreciated!!!
send a private message to either gggraham or goose and they'll be able to help you out.
how do i do that?
I can't help it, your avitar is cracking me up. It's like the dog is asking "how do I do that?" I'm a dog lover. Go up to the top of the page and click on the link for "Member List". Go through the list and find gggraham and goose. Then you can click on those respective members and find the link to send them a message. Play around with it, you'll figure it out.
thanks!! Isn't he just too cool that is my dog Rosco P. Coletrain...lol i was playing with it and it won't let me access the members list could this be because i am a new member? by the way thanks for the quick replys i thought this was going to take days... again thanks.
Don't fret about it, make another couple of posts and you'll be a junior member and have access to all the website features. And, by the way, welcome aboard.
You are great help!! thanks for the welcome and i am sure i will see you around.. i know i will be needing more help with my dad and his toys. you are my go to guy around here.... thanks again
I recently bought a 580 CK with similar problems. Mine however did move just real slow. Topped up the hydrolic fluid and it moved better.
I changed the filter in front of the radiator on my 580 CK and that seems to have made my TLB move better
I changed some of the hoses on my machine but could use some advise.
Was busy last week. During the weekend, I filled the TCH for the shuttle and 80w90 for the gearbox, after that I recalled that I need to change the filter in front the radiator. Then, I opened the filter housing and tried to bring the old filter to the dealer for a new one. But it surprised me, nothing in there. The filter house is empty. Anyway, I bought a new one this afternoon and put it in there when I go home. I start the machine, the first try was not successful. But after running for a while, it start to move. still kind of weak. It has no problem on a flat ground, when I try to drive up to a hill, I have to use left front (is this the 1st gear?) and push the fuel paddle all the way down. Of course, it is getting much better then it was before I change the oil for it. I check the the oil again after stop the machine, both oil looks still turbid and milky but much better then the one I replaced. How long should I wait before do the oil change again? I'll take some photo tomorrow and post here. Thanks.
Yes, go ahead and change it again. It's going to take several oil changes because you can't drain what's inside the torque convertor. Did you actually put TCH and 85W/90 in the machine? Isn't that a little spendy on the wallet? Like I suggested earlier, get the cheapest stuff you can during the "oil flush" period. Use the good stuff when the oil being drained is "clear oil". Avoid pulling grades right now. For now, you need to run around on flat ground for a short period of time to agitate/mix the oil, then drain it, and re-fill. You want to do this until you get clear oil in the boxes. If you have milky oil, especially in the shuttle trans oil, that's oil that has been emulsified with water. When your pulling a grade, the oil temp in the torque convertor goes up to temperatures that can boil water and turn it to steam, not good. Avoid hard loads or grades. Flat ground, focus on getting oil clear. You can't tell if you have other problems, like clutch packs, until you get that oil clear. And...order a new rubber boot for the 4 speed tranny lever from your Case dealer.
Rubber boot fix
the machine is not running. I do not know what meter the right upper one is. the right bottom one is trans pressure.
now the machine is running. the shuttle lever is in neutral.
Now, I am pushing the left clutch paddle
I don't know why it looks so sweaty.
Phil, How can I check this? This might be the big trouble to me if mine has this problem. Thanks!
When I bought this machine, I feel that it was weak to drive up to a hill, the angle is not very deep though. It getting worse later untill the last time, the machine completely stop moving. I hope it does not have other problem except changing oil. Today, I drained both torque converter oil and trans oil again. got the drained torque converter oil pic here. Also, today I found that this machine has the most powerful gear on front left, quite weak gear rear left and right front, the machine does not move at all on rear right gear even on flat ground. what are causing this?
Just a note on your gearshift boot fix, put a little silicone around the boot at the top, also. The unknown gauge is the amp gauge I believe. The trans pressure guage appears to be working. Next try putting it in forward, with the engine at idle and see what the gauge reads. Better to do it on a warm machine. Do the same with reverse. Note how quickly the needle comes back up. Checking the shuttle pump screen on a 580B is a big job, almost as easy to split the tractor, but somewhat easier to take the tank off. More later. 580B's were known to be lazy going up a hill. Lazy in general I think compared to later models. I don't know if they had a less efficient converter than the C model but there's a very noticeable difference. I just have to put mine in first gear(forward and to the left) to get up any hill, off road. To the right and back is 4th gear. You will do well to get a B rolling from a stop in 4th, unless you are on a hard level road and have lots of time. That is what your 'clutch' pedal is for, push it down while moving along in 2nd or 3rd, slip it into 4th, then let your clutch out and go. Very disturbing the colour of your oil, I'm glad you found the converter drain plug, I wasn't sure that the B had one. That would make 3 drain points, right?I would follow ATCOEQUIP's advice and get that oil cleaned up. Hopefully your cooler is alright, they were known for leaks. Do a search to check on that topic. Phil
Agreeing with Phil. The upper right gauge looks like an ammeter. I haven't worked on a B series, so I kinda guessing this stuff. The engine running trans pressure gauge in the green would mean you have good pressure to operate the shuttle trans clutch packs. Then you mention pressing the left clutch pedal. I guess the B has a floor pedal to operate drive pressure clutch? If so, the reaction is proper. It's not a true "clutch pedal", when you depress the pedal it opens a valve that dumps trans pressure so there's no pressure to operate shuttle trans clutch packs, which gives you a, sort of, clutch. The trans pressure gauge going down when depressing the pedal is normal, indicating pressure is being dumped. These readings also indicate you don't have a problem with the pick-up screen, I would think you'd have fluctuating pressure on the gauge then, could be wrong. With good trans pressure to operate clutch packs, but machine continues to labor to drive could be an indication of bad torque convertor or bad clutch packs. Is the drive weak in rev the same as it is in forward?
I tried this when the gearshift is in neutral. Putting the shuttle lever both forward and backward make the trans needle jump to left just noticeably little bit. BTW, my backhoe roll easily. I probably shouldn't expect any more on this regard. Phil, do you need to push the fuel paddle all the way down to drive up everytime or sometime? the color of the oil drained out might not be the real color cause the light was not good. I did not find the converter drain plug. I do believe that there is no such a plug in there. you mean the radiator, right? I checked. it is always full.
Exactly! Cool! I tried this also today. it behave almost the same I think. Today, I drained both tanks again. the oil coming out from trans box appears to be good. so tomorrow will be the last fill for it. But, the torque converter oil is still milky. but improved quite bit. When I drain the converter oil today, I put the shuttle lever and gearshift both in neutral and start the engine several times to let the torque converter get rid the old oil inside it. is this harmful? Thanks!
If it feels pretty much the same in fwd or rev, then it's not likely a problem with the clutch packs. Your charge pump is producing pressure, meaning, the pump is good and the pressure regulator is good. There's sufficient pressure for clutch packs, and they act the same in fwd or reverse. It's sounding more and more like you might have a convertor problem. There should be a test fitting somewhere to connect a gauge and check the convertor stall pressure, but since I haven't worked on a B, I have no idea where it would be. As for the oil in the convertor, your doing pretty much the correct way. Start the engine, let it run at idle, and the charge pump circulates oil through the convertor, which flushes the oil out. Since you have no covertor drain plug, this is why you are having to change the oil several times. The reason phil mentioned the oil cooler is because the oil cooler is integral with the engine coolant radiator on the B series. It's not unusual for internal radiator corrosion to comprimise the core and you'll get coolant mixed into trans oil. If your radiator is full, and the level never changes, you probably don't have a problem with the cooler. But it's something you want to watch out for as time goes by.
I got to agree, your shuttle pump/sceen is okay, assuming the dash gauge is accurate. There is a port to check for torque convertor charging pressure, I'll look in my manual and get back to you if you want to check it. Do change your shuttle fluid twice. As a side note, B's are very sluggish for a few minutes when they are cold, below freezing it gets quite noticable. In the B owner's manual it actually states, to correct this problem raise the machine off the ground with the outriggers and drive the rear wheels for a few minutes. I talked to someone who used to own a Case dealership and that is what he instructed new 580B owners to do, when they came back with that complaint. Can't remember where you are from, so I thought I would mention it. Yes I do have to put my gas pedal to the mat when going up a steep hill. Try the machine out for a while and see what you think. I don't think my 580CK manual shows a stall test, I'll check. I thought I had a B once that had good shuttle pressure, good clutch pack discs, yet would hardly move. I'm going to look back in my notes. Look on the right side of your steering wheel housing at the serial # decal and see is there is a R or a T stamped after the serial #...so it might look like this: 580BCK 8775392 R Here is an old thread for B lovers. The sweaty look on your block looks like a fuel leak. I have to admit that my B is growing on me, even though a D is my favourite. Phil
The converter charge pressure should be between 30 and 40 psi, measured at the allen head pipe plug, beside the converter temperature sending unit. This check is done with the engine warm and operating at 1500 rpm, in neutral. Removing the shuttle cover(where the oil level dipstick is located) will give you an interesting look at the shuttle unit itself. Use a 3/8" 12 point socket to remove one of the 4 bolts. If the shuttle has no band around its drums then it's a Twin Disc unit(ugh). If there is a band then it's a Rockwell. The rear drum/disc assembly is forward gear. Twin Disc units are touchy, hard to work on and cost more to fix I think. Burn discs can sometimes be seen by looking down through the slots in the drum, but I can't remember for sure. Phil
Forgot to include the picture. This ones a Rockwell. Phil
Hi I have the same problem with my 580b. I have changed filter an fluid and installed a pressure gauge to replace the dash gauge. My pressure in neutral is only 155psi and when it is in gear and shuttle forward or reverse the pressure drops to 30psi. When I apply the clutch while in or out of gear the pressure drops to 0 psi. Is this a bad pump? What should the pressure be on this gauge in neutral and what should it be in gear in forward or reverse shuttle?
Phil, Thanks for the picture and the instructions. I saw there is a black seal just underneath my machine shuttle cover. Just as you said, this machine getting more powerful when I run it for a while. It is old machine, about 67xx hours. I got its service manual, I'll study it for a while and see what can I do. Now, I just don't know if it has problem on the driving force or it is what it suppose to be like this. It is good idea to measure the pressure though but I just can not have it done soon. I also changed the engine oil and filter. I bought the fuel and air filters and going to change them soon. My machine also have cylinder leaks, three of them leak badly. So, I am going to handle this issue first for now. I bought a special tool which is for taking the gland off. I tried it, but found that it is not as easy as I thought before. the gland is really tight. the tool has 3/4" hole on it but I have 1/2" break bar, add a 1/2 to 3/4 adapter make it even harder to do. Don't know if I can do it or not.
see the model plate
the tool for taking the gland
Hope this can help you.
airr, check out this thread to help you take your cylinders apart.
Johnnye, My book shows checking the clutch pressure gauge as follows: With warm engine, in neutral, at 1500rpm, engage forward.......... then reverse; pressure setting should be between 170 and 190 psi. If the pressure is too low or too high add or remove shims under the pressure regulator valve plug until the specified pressure is obtained. The shuttle/converter pump can be checked at the converter oil filter, just in front of the rad. "With the transmission in neutral and the clutch engaged, engine warm and operating at 600 rpm, the pressure gauge should read between 275 and 325 psi. Increase the engine speed to 2250 rpm and the pressure gauge reading should not exceed 500psi". This pressure is checked at the upper connection on the filter housing, by removing the line and attaching the gauge to the housing. You probably have either a plugged pump intake screen or a bad shuttle pack seal(s). Both would cause the clutch pressure to drop like that. I'm guessing that if you test at the filter housing and it comes up good that your pump is probably okay, that test dead heads the pump so to speak. Let me know and include a little history of the problem please. Your clutch pedal is working okay and 155psi is enough to drive the machine. Airr, see if your book has the shuttle drive machine shown also, not just the hydrostatic machine, and show pictures of all 3 shuttle/converter pressure checks. If you've got a hydrostatic manual in hard copy, that would be a rare book. Unfortunately your decal does not have the T or R stamped on it, same with mine. ATCOEQUIP, Hats off to you on the gland removal technique . Phil
Gland moments Forgot to add this link. Phil
Airr and Phil Thanks for the info! I will try these checks this week. Is the shuttle pickup tube screen accessible with a long magnet rod, by removal of the shuttle dip stick cover plate? The history of my machine is,it runs great but the lack of mobility has been increasing for a while, it now only travels a short distance and no inclines at all. After a little warm up it will travel on flat ground in forward and reverse shuttle in 1st , 2nd, or 3rd gear for a few minutes.Then it starts to loose all travel. I can put it in neutral shuttle for a minute and then back into shuttle and travel a little more at a time for a short while! I can hear what sounds like the pump priming up or building pressure when I take it out of shuttle. And when it is running parked in neutral I can feel the discharge line to the filter vibrate hard and and sort of shutter or bump. Thanks again and all info is much appreciated.
The reason I brought that thread back up here is because I've used that technique many times over the years, and, it's worked everytime I've tried it. I'm certain there's a great number of folks on this forum who take cylinders apart, and there are times they can be a PITA! This technique can make life a whole lot easier for a bunch of you guys, that's why I wanted to share it again.
ATCOEQUIP, Thanks for the link! I like your trick. Since I have never done it, even never change a hose for the backhoe before, so, I'd like to let you see if what I am going to do is correct or ... let me brief what I am going to do here. Also, I 'd like to hear your other recommendation on cylinder fix. This is the one I will work on first cause it is smaller and might be easier to work with.
next, I need to disconnect the two hoses
next, How should I handle the hydraulic fluid. can I just use this rubber plug to block the hose?
here is where the cylinder leaks
So, I just want to replace the part 7, which is D36969. instead of ordering a whole seal kit.
ATCOEQUIP, please comment and make a complementarity if need. Thanks!
This is going to take a couple of minutes to wade through it, I'm workin' on it.
Phil, my service manual is on a CD, not a physical book. The only pressure check page I found in the manual is the page I uploaded here. I don't know what "shuttle drive machine" is. explain me more if you could and I'll try to find it.
Johnnye, re post #68 My feeling is that a partially plugged intake screen will be slightly more noticeable, on the pressure gauge, when cold, and clutch pack leakage is more noticeable when warm. Checking the screen means removing the big plate or cover I think you may have an air leak in the suction side of the pump, which should be more noticeable, when cold, or with the wrong oil type. A plugged intake screen would make that problem worse. There are several gaskets and seals on the suction side. An air leak is a buzz sound, cavitation is a whump, whump, sound. I feel it is probably worth the effort to pull the tank off, then the shuttle cover, to check the intake screen, first. If you want to split the tractor, it's more work but the shuttle clutch packs can be checked at the same time, and checking the pump intake screen is easier with the tractor split. Also the tank stays put when you split the tractor. You may have come to that point. I would do the pump pressure check at the filter housing first. This will help when you pull your pump apart to check for wear, and evaluate the relief valve. I have taken a few pictures to help me next time I have a B with shuttle problems. I'm going to locate and drill a hole under the pump intake screen to check for debris, then tap it for a 1/2" NPT plug. I think the seal kit from Case, for the Rockwell shuttle is $100 Can. and there are 7 gaskets and 4 seals that would add another $100 approx. The shaft seal kit is about $50. Clutch plates may be required. If you have a Twin Disc shuttle, you'll need a press. Splitting a B is no easy job, nice to have a hoist that will roll with the front of the tractor as it moved ahead about 3'. I will try and post some pics. Phil
Ok, you've thrown a couple of items in here. First, let's talk about the plugs/caps your going to need. I don't know how much money you have to work with, but if your planning on owning the hoe for a few years, I'd invest in steel plugs and caps, your going to need them for other projects on the machine. You can get them from any hyd hose shop, even most NAPA stores that make hoses. They are called JIC taper fittings and you have one o-ring boss in there. If not, plugs like you've shown will do the trick. The hose at the top of the cylinder is either a JIC #8 or #10, hard to tell in a pic. It should come apart, but, mositure can get in the threads on JIC fittings and cause corrosion, looks like that might be the case with yours. Try the wrench on it, if it doesn't give easily, (I'll probably get a comment from OCR or AtlasRob for this) but that's Ok , get a hammer. Give the hose fitting nut some taps right on one of the flats. Then move over to the next flat. After a few taps, it should wrench right off of there. Try not to disturb the 90 elbow it's connected to, that's an o-ring boss fitting, and if it comes loose, your sure to have to replace the o-ring. Which is not a big deal, but I doubt that corroded fitting is going to be very co-operative, you'll probably have to replace the fitting. Also, I could be wrong, but I think that's supposed to be a piece of tubing going down the cylinder and clamped off on the side of the cylinder. A hose arrangement like is there is probably OK though. The hose fitting at the bottom of the cylinder should come loose. That's an o-ring boss fitting and the threads are sealed by the o-ring, I don't see you having a problem with that one. The cylinder...man, that looks ugly! You will have to disassemble the cylinder. Before you take any hoses off, remove the pin that attaches the cylinder rod to the bucket, start the machine, and fully retract the rod. Shut off engine, and work you bucket control valve to relief pressure on the circuit. Take both hose connections loose, leave the cylinder can attached to the machine, this helps to "vise" the cylinder, your now ready for disassembly. It would be great if you could fab a spanner tool like others have done at this thread, but, hopefully, when we're done, you may be able to screw it out with just a big pair of slip-joint pliers. You will have to utilize my peening technique to prepare the gland for removal, do this first, but as corroded as that looks, there's one more step that would help a lot; do you have access to a good hot water pressure washer? If so, Spend several minutes going around the end of the cylinder, around and around, getting the steel of the cylinder hot from the pressure washer. The heat will expand the end of the cylinder. Between that and peening the end of the cylinder, she'll probably just screw right out. But before you do anything, I'm looking at the little hole in the side of the cylinder on post #73. There should be a screw there to retain the gland in the cylinder. It looks like corrosion may have eaten it away, can't tell in the pic, just make sure there's no screw or screw frags in there. As for the seals; once you have went through the trouble of getting a cylinder apart, replace all the seals, not just one or two of them. Yourself will thank yourself for doing this. Hey Phil, great pics. I think I'll stick with the cylinder problems and let you handle busting the tractor in half. :notworthy
"I think I'll stick with the cylinder problems and let you handle busting the tractor in half." I was trying to think of a more difficult job.............it was the time I had everything apart on a 580B shuttle, then got it back together and it wouldn't move. Took it back apart again to find that I had put a snap ring on top of a washer instead of underneath it. Here is a pic of the pump pick-up screen and tube, upside down. Phil
I'll add this picture of the view with the tank removed. Phil
Phil Thanks again for the info!!! I was able to check the discharge pressure at the filter housing last night. The pressure at a fast idle was about 175 psi and at high rpm only up to 195 psi. The pressure actually dropped back to about 155 psi for a few seconds when I first increased the rpm. I let it rum for a while to make sure it was warm. My pump starts out silent then goes up to a high pitched wine or buzz when the pressure comes up. I think I will start pulling the plates this weekend. I'm not really set up to split the machine in my barn, no concrete floor, makes for a dirty job. Hope to get concrete this year! Do you think I should go ahead and order the pump or check for an air leak or split pick up tube first. Thanks for the pictures, do you have one with the pump exposed while attached? By the way that looks like one of my shirts.
The pump bolts to the plate, in post #80, to the left of the pick-up tube. It is aligned with dowels that you can almost see in the picture. Taking the tank off is no easy chore either. It is meant to come off by removing the loader frame tube and pin that sits above it, something I've never done. However there is a post here somewhere showing someone who did it by sliding the long pin out and spreading the 2 loader frames enough to get the tube out. One can get the tank out without removing the tube but it's a very tight fit. To do this remove the complete air breather assembly and 2 fuel lines, drain and unbolt the tank. Remove the 2 rear tank studs, not sure if the front ones have to come out or not. Double nut the studs and use vicegrips to help get them turning. Remove the valve cover and you'll probably have to remove the rear rocker arm post. Put a rag over the rocker arms. Unbolt the steering valve assembly and remove, noting where all the lines go. Unbolt the front tank support and lay it down or remove it. You may have to remove the tank drain valve and fuel shut off valve. I've seen many tanks dented in slightly along the top, from removal this way. I wouldn't think about getting a pump until you have inspected it, the relief valve, the intake screen, the pump seals, the intake tube gasket, etc. Let me know how you make out. Phil
Man, I hate it when I do something like that! Like when you put a cylinder together, all finished up, and look on the work table and see that spacer tube that goes on the rod between the piston and the gland! :Banghead
ATCOEQUIP, Thank you so much! This will take some time to do. If I can do the 1st, I'll be able to do the rest then. : ) Thanks.
I quailed when I saw the pics Phil got here. I probably could never finish it if I disassemble the backhoe like that. : (
No problem, keep us posted. If your going to own/operate the machine, you might as well learn how to make some basic repairs. If you get in a pinch, put up a post, someone here is going to help you out. Getting back to those plugs/caps; I would try to obtain some steel JIC plugs/caps. Looking at the condition of the hoses in the pics, your going to need them for other hose repairs. Most of the hoses on your machine are going to be JIC flare. If you want to take a hose loose and plug/cap it and need to know what size JIC it is, it generally goes like this: the JIC #4 takes a 9/16" wrench on the fitting nut. The #6 = 11/16 wrench, #8 = 7/8 wrench, #10 = 1" wrench, #12 = 1 1/4" wrench. There are sizes larger than this, but I don't think they're on your machine. Also, that fitting at the gland end of the cylinder that has an o-ring boss fitting on the end of the hose can be plugged with a JIC male plug. JIC and o-ring boss are the same thread. You can remove the hose, find the JIC plug that fits the threads of the fitting on the cylinder, remove the o-ring from the hose fitting you just removed, slip it onto the JIC plug, and screw it into the hole on the cylinder.
ATCOEQUIP, Now, coming back for help , the gland is off and hang on the neck of the rod. My problem is that should I pull the rod out of the cylinder? I tried but I could not pull the rod out of the cylinder. It is so tight. I can turn, hard though, the rod by insert my break bar into the hold of the end of the rod. Left hand side tilt cylinder is even tighter than the right hand side one. I might use my truck and chain to pull it out, but, what concern me a lot is that how can I push them in later on once I replace all the seals? :Banghead I have to admit that peening indeed works!! Great trick! Thanks!
I'd say your piston seals are all fowled up inside making it tough. Once you get it apart, clean everything, and install new seals, everything should go together fine. Since you have the gland removed, that should have allowed you to drain the oil out of the rod side of the piston. Lubricate the gland and screw it back in, you don't have to tighten it up completely, but screw it in a good ways. Take an air nozzle, preferrably one with a rubber tip, put it in the fitting at the other end of the cylinder and give it a shot of air. This should make the cylinder extend and hit the gland. Now remove the gland and you should be able to wiggle it out. I've also had to pull them apart with a machine like you described. Keep us posted with the progress.
Phil I removed the pump this weekend. The pickup tube screen was completely plugged from the sides and had about 30% to 40% pluggage from the bottom. It was some old permaseal and some gasket material. Pieces of the gasket seems to be breaking down and falling into the shuttle tube. I inspected the shuttle pump gears, there doesn't seem to be an obvious problem, but I don't know what clearence there should be betweem the gears. The best measurement I could get is about 12 or 13 thousands clearance between the gears, on one side, with the other side of the gear tooth touching the other gears tooth. Do you have any information on clearance,or how to test the pump? I can turn one gear a very!! slight amount before the other gear moves. I would hate to reassemble my machine and still have a bad pump.The relief valve appears to be O. K.. Any help will be appreciated.
Before I forget to mention, make sure you replace both pump seals where the pump housing bolts to the adapter plate. Also replace the adaptor plate gasket and any above it that you disturb. I can get the part #'s for you. Make sure the pick-up tube gasket is replaced and the tube flange is filed flat before installation. Good place for a suction leak. Take the relief valve apart by moving the roll pin enough to take the washer, pin, spring and ball out. Check for a good seat where the ball rests and any debris lodged there. The spring has a free length of 1.90" and compressed to 1.27" should require 17.5-21.5 lbs. Checking the rest of the pump, new gears have a width of.749" to .750". Outside diameter of new gears is 1.707" to 1.709". Shafts have a new diameter of .4912" to .4915". Pump cover torque is 9-11 ft lbs and pump to adapter plate torque is 35-42 ft lbs. It's difficult here to you how much wear is too much. Hydraulic pumps are pretty fussy, anything more than a slight amount of end play in the gears and shaft bushings is too much. It's a $600 pump and that's aftermarket. If you're unsure try and get a mechanic you trust to look at it. Pump housings will wear too, the clearance between the outside of the gear and the housing is critical, and bushing/shaft wear affects this. Another point to consider is that a temporary fuel supply/ return would allow you to run the machine without having to put the tank back on. Be careful cleaning up the adapter old gasket. Look at my picture of the torque tube, the blue plugs cover the ports to the converter, the 2 rear ports go to the shuttle clutch packs. Phil
I forgot to add that gasket #16 can be put in backwards. If you have this section apart, ball and spring #20  can slide out or get cocked on assembly. I really feel it's worth the time to replace all the gaskets as they are still available, reasonable, and form seals between passageways. It's a lot of work to scrape these gaskets off , a lot of cleaning, and you'll need compressed air too. Gasket material falling into a cavity is too great a risk so I just take everything apart now. It's a good idea to remove and check valve #15 for free movement. The spring #14 behind it sets the pressure you see on the dash gauge. Phil
ATCOEQUIP, Out of town for ten days. Finally, I pulled the rods out of the cylinder using my truck. they are really tight. upload some photos here. Tried to take the bolt, on the top of the rod, off, but right now I don't have the socket with the right size. I guess it will take 1-1/8" socket, right? not metric. the progress is slow. Thanks.
Oh yeah, that stuff looks pretty nasty. I can see where the piston seals were beginning to be forced over top of the loader rings, that's what made them so tight to come apart. Once you get everything cleaned up and new seals on it, I don't thing you'll have a problem with reassembly. Yes, that bolt is rather, and should be, tight. I have the luxury of having a BIG vise to clamp the rod eye, an overhead crane to support the rod, and a 1" CP impact to knock the bolt out. You may find that bolt has a little red Loctite applied to it as well. I thing that's a two piece piston, once you get the bolt out, the piston splits in halves, makes for an easy installation of new seals as opposed to one piece pistons that you have to work the seals onto. Could be wrong though, it's been a while since I've done one of those. I'd say when get that piston off, and pull the gland off, you'll find the rod seal in the gland just crumbles into pieces. Keep us posted.
In addition to changing the fluids, change your torque converter oil filter (Carquest 85518 or Autozone WIX51518 or FRAM C1683) located in front of your radiator. When this filter gets clogged, you're going nowhere! Good luck. Tom
Hey Tom did this happen to you? I was curious because the filter assembly has a by-pass valve in it or at least I thought it did. Phil
Phil: Good point. As I look at the filter assembly, it has a spring that SHOULD allow a bypass if the filter is clogged. However, I've heard from other owners that if the filter is clogged, you cannot get torque to move the tractor. In the winter, when the temperature is below 32 degrees, I can't get mine to move at all - no matter what I do. So, in this respect, I believe that the bypass does not move. By the way, I'm having a problem now that I'm working on. I have no clutch pressure at all. I've changed the oil AND the filter and that does not seem to correct the problem. When I remove the temperature sensor and start the engine, oil SHOULD come pouring out of the orfice (unless I'm reading the manual incorrectly). Thanks for the comments (I learn something new every day)! ;>)
Pump etc. Phil: I'm new to the forum and I'm also a greenhorn when it comes to repairing my 580ck. But I feel much better after reading your, Atcoequip, airr, & other posts above. You guys really know your stuff! I'm learning much! Based on the above, it looks like I'll be pulling my pump this weekend (no clutch pressure) although I hate the thought of getting into it because of the tight space - splitting the tractor is not something I'd like to get in to. Reading above, it looks like pulling the fuel tank would probably be my best option. Thanks to you and everyone for all the great information. Tom
Tom, I have read somewhere to also check the filter if there is low shuttle charging pressure, so I believe that what you say may be true. Re the temperature sender, I believe it should be in the path of the oil returning from the converter at about 30psi. I'll have to look at my manual, something does not seem right there. That may be a good clue. Next time your machine is below 32 deg F look at your shuttle pressure gauge, assuming of coarse that your problem is fixed at that point. It will be in the green. The 'darn thing won't move when it's cold' problem is unique to the 'B's and was so disturbing to new 'B' owners that they were told by some dealers apparently, in the colder climates, to lower their outriggers and put the machine in gear. The rear tires would start turning slowly at first, and after a few minutes, the machine could be put back down on the ground and driven off. Some 'B's are worse than others for this problem, and I think they may have #80-140 gear oil in the rear compartment instead of #80-90. I believe one could possibly use a synthetic oil instead but be sure to get the right classification as there are hypoid gears in there. I was talking to a retired Case mechanic(friend) about the 'B' shuttle screen check, and I told him that the next 'B' I have with low shuttle pressure, I am going to drill. Apparently my idea was not a first as he has done it . Here is a picture of where I'm going to drill, on the left side, remember that the screen is the width of your middle finger above the floor, so keep a grip on the drill. Cast is very easy to drill. The case is about 3/4" thick. Use a variable speed drill for the larger bits, I would suggest the last drill size be the tap drill for a 1/2" pipe plug. There should be pictures of the screen and the inside of the compartment where the screen resides in this thread I think. Phil
Phil After more inspection and second opinions from people I trust we have come to the (hopefully correct)conclusion that my shuttle pump is O.K.. I am sure the pluggage on my pickup tube was causing a good bit of problems. But now I have disassembled my relief valve and found wear on the side of the spring. I made a crude pressure testing devise and checked the load release. The valve started releasing at between 155 to 190 psi. I'm thinking this pressure should be about 500psi, is this correct ? I'm looking at the info on pressure checking the shuttle/converter pump you sent (at 2250rpm the gauge should not exceed 500psi). Can you tell me the proper relief pressure? One other thing that came up in discussion with my brother, when making the pressure check you said transmittion in neutral and clutch engaged, did this mean clutch petal pushed down or released? Thanks for your time and reply's
Johnneye, The pump relief valve should start unloading between 275 and 325 psi at 600 rpm. The reference to checking for a maximum of 500 psi is at 2250 rpm. I think you should try a new spring in your relief valve or a complete replacement valve from Case, just to be sure. Hopefully it's available separately. 'Clutch engaged' means foot off the clutch pedal or released. "If Pressure is Low-check for a plugged filter, restricted lines, worn pump, low oil level or worn spring in the relief valve. If the pressure is still low, a washer,Figure 3, may be added. One washer raises the pressure approximately 25 psi." I have seen some badly worn B pumps with shafts loose and lots of end play, so I'm guessing the system is somewhat forgiving. Phil
Phil Thanks for the info. I have ordered the new spring and ball from Case they have to get it from California. You said adding one washer raises the relief pressure approximately 25psi. Do you know how much adding a shim to the regulator valve spring will increase its' psi? I don't think I have any problem with the regulator valve I would just like to know for future reference. Thanks again
Phil: Thanks for your help! I haven't been able to work on the tractor for a few days but hope to do so in a few more days (after the rain). In freezing weather, I've tried raising the rear tires off the ground and allowing the wheels to spin for about 10 minutes or so. I've also tried to "push" the tractor forward with the backhoe, thus "breaking" the wheels free. By the way, I don't know if I explained my problem sufficiently or not but I have absolutely NO clutch pressure - in forward OR reverse. Could the torque tube screen be that plugged up to result in zero pressure? Good idea on the casing plug. I don't have the expertise, however, to tackle such a job - I'd be afraid I'd get to a point that I would ruin the entire casing. Thank you though. Perhaps I'll attempt it later on down the road as I gain a little more experience. Thanks again. Tom
Phil: My tractor's name plate indicates the it is a "580ck" (no B or anything else). The serial number is 8349183. Can you tell from that number what the year is? Secondly, reading the above posts, it appears that I might be able to get to the screened torque tube without splitting the tractor by removing the fuel tank (as well as a few other items). I split the tractor about 5 years ago and I really don't want to do that again unless absolutely necessary (although I did manage to get it back together again and running). Any suggestions? Thanks! Tom
Johnneye, The clutch pressure regulator valve located in the top section of the 'B' shuttle valve assembly uses the following shims: "These shims are available in two sizes , 5 psi and 10 psi." #13 A38441 SHIM, .0209" Thk, Pressure regulating #13 A38442 SHIM, .0418" Thk, Pressure regulating I added a flat washer to my 'B' shuttle regulating valve recently and it moved the gauge needle from the line between the red and green to almost the half-way mark. Phil
Tom, My reference guide shows your machine a 1968 model. Would a plugged intake tube result in 0 pressure, I'm not sure, usually it's a gradual problem, starting with a slow build-up of pressure after a shift. I think if it were mine I would do the pump pressure test at the converter oil filter first, after checking the condition of the filter. Most have to come apart and taking the tank off is a little easier than splitting the tractor. If you have no pressure on the gauge in neutral your clutch pack may be alright. Phil
Phil: Thanks for the information on the year. I changed the converter oil filter in front of the radiator. I then disconnected the discharge line and started the engine very briefly to see if oil would come gushing out. It did not! I beileve that this would indicate either a very clogged system OR that the pump is inoperative. I'll take the tank off as a starter rather than splitting the tractor. Thanks again for your help. Tom
Disconnect both lines off the top of the shuttle valve assembly and check again, just to make sure there's not a blockage. Phil
Newbies Howdy, A buddy and I bought a 1974 580b with an extendahoe. It has a hard time moving forward and backward among other issues. After reading all this great stuff we are going to start fixing on it, but we might need some help. I will keep you posted. Rip
Welcome to the forum Rip3196. We seem to be keeping Phil rather busy with the 580B lately. You should make a post at the new members thread and introduce yourself. After you make 3 posts, you'll have access to all the features of the forum.
580ck Phil: Thanks for the suggestion on checking the lines prior to digging into the control valves etc. I did just that, disconnected the lines and blew compressed air throught the lines (with the filter in between) and, unfortunately, the lines were clear (I say unfortunately because that would have been the easy fix). With the lines disconnected, I started the engine briefly and oil came out of the power shuttle control valve. However, I expected it to exit the valve with a lot of pressure but instead it came out with just a little bit of "gushing". So, it could be the torque tube with a clogged screen. I would think that if it were the pump itself that I would get absolutely nothing from the discharge side of the control valve. Again, thanks for your help. Tom
Don't bet on the fact that you get a little gushing means the pump is ok. Obviously check the cheaper fixes first. I had an old ** ag tractor where the hydraulic pump was "ok" to do most things requiring the 3pt, however once I put a front end loader on it, it would not build the pressure to lift the loader even with it being empty. After pump replacement it was fine. I think a pressure test on the pump output would be warranted.
Update on weak forward and reverse. This post is so I can get my third post in to have full rights and post pics if need be. The needle on the dash stays in the green when moved from neutral to forward or reverse with a slight drop and immediate return. We are in the process of getting a gage to hook up to the test ports of the power shuttle control valve. Rip
Good idea to verify your dash gauge pressure. I had a 'B' once with good shuttle pressure and it was slipping in both forward and reverse. Phil
Rip, I got the similar problem as you have. Did you check the shuttle and transmission oil? My machine can move for now, but I will be back to check further on this weak moving issue once I get my cylinders done. Hope you and Tom can work it out and provide me more useful info on this fix. ATCOEQUIP and Phil, Greeting first! too much work are waiting for me. Well, just got the parts shipped to me. Part #: G32294. I found that this new seal kit does not include the leather v ring as shown clearly in the 2nd and 3rd pic in my post #93. Instead of the two leather v ring, it has two more plastic v rings in there. does this sound right? In addition, the new part 6 in this seal kit, please refer to pic in post #74, the outer wiper, does not fit into the gland, i.e its diameter is a little larger than the old one, does it matter if I use the old one? Thanks! I'll upload pics tomorrow if it is in need.
Hmm, isn't that a good thing right now? Yes, pics of your parts would help. It looks like your old seals might be the original stuff. It's not unusual for a mfg to update to newer style sealing components. As for the wiper, I don't know whats up with that. I can't tell for sure, but it looked like what we call a "canned wiper" that is a seal molded in a steel outer case that presses into the gland. If that's what you have, and the replacement is a canned wiper as well, just the wrong size; I believe I would have to question if they provided you with the correct kit. If all other seals turn out to be correct and it's just a matter of the wiper OD being larger, I'd have a machinest turn the hole to fit it. I'd say that wiper would like some fresh/uncorroded metal anyhow. In any case, you want a new wiper, that's the line of defense to prevent dirt and moisture from contaminating the rod seal.
I don't know what to make of your wiper problem airr. Usually if the inner seal is correct, then the outer wiper will fit. Just make sure the outer steel ring from the old dirt wiper is still not in the gland. It will look like it's part of the gland until you take a very close look, and these are not easy to pry out. I get mine from a hydraulics supply shop. I am up to my neck in mechanical problems too. Phil
the new piston packing.
the old wiper in the gland
the gland without outer wiper
oops, here is the pic
new and old wiper, groove side
new and old wiper, back side. there are some differences.
Looks like, if the black metal ring is taken out of there, see pic in #121, there is a chance that the new outer wiper could fit into. :<
Yep, your old one is a canned wiper, the metal "can" is still in the gland. Pop it out and the new one will probably fit. It's hard to tell for sure now that you've installed the piston seals, but that kinda looks like "V" packing.
Thank you ATCOEQUIP. Is there a way to take it out without ruining it?
the rings in the piston pic are all V shape if take a cross section view except the most outside one. the same are the old piston packing include the leather ring.
Yes, now that the seal material has been plucked out of it, the can metal is relatively bendable. Clamp the gland in a vise using a rag for a softener, place the edge of a sharp point flat screwdriver at inside of can steel as shown by arrow in pic. The steel will lift fairly easy and allow you to get under it with a twist back and forth motion with the screwdriver until your under it and just pop it out.
That's what I thought. Best I can tell by the pic, it looks like you've got it assembled correctly. V-packing, whether it's the old leather style or newer urethane style, works the same. You'll have a male V ring and a female V ring on the outside of the assembly with V rings inbetween. The female V ring will be flat on one side and an inward pointing V on the other side. The flat side of the female goes closest to the center of the piston. Then you stack V rings with the lip pointing away from piston center. Then you fit the male V ring with the V point fitting into the previous installed rings and the flat side farthest from center of piston. Thats pretty much it.
Fuel Tank Removal After reading post #83, I attempted to remove my fuel tank by removing the loader frame tube. The inner rod came out relatively easy but after that, I came to a standstill. I could not get the frame to spread far enough to remove the tube from the right and left frame. I loosened the bolts on the front frame near the radiator and that helped a bit. I loosened the bolts to the cab frame and that helped a bit. Don't quite know what to do here other than following Phil's other instructions (taking the rocker cover off, etc.). Oh, I did manage to get the shuttle control valve assembly off. All appears normal. I have two shims on the pressure valve. Will check the spring assembly later this morning. By the way, there are 2 springs, one inside the other, on #14 (refer to post #92). Tom
The B loader frames are rigidly bolted to the axle housings on each side with 4 long bolts. There are a couple of arms in there that support the hoe attachment, and are attached to the frames also. Not hard to see everything with the floor plates removed. I don't know if loosening off these bolts would give you a little more movement or not. Usually some of the bolts are seized in the holes. Taking the transaxle out of a B is a real pain. Possibly using a small bottle jack to spread the top of the frames a bit more, might do it. I've never done it that way, always struggled with the tube in place. If you PM the moderator he will delete a post for you. I don't think spring #14 is anything to worry about, seems to me it is a double, but even after a few months, I can't remember. Phil
Here is a couple pics of our gal, I hope. I am still new to this. We verified the dash gage for clutch pressure is working ok. I think our 600 psi gage is too big for measuring the power shuttle lubrication at test port D. The gage didn't move but had oil in the line when I took it off. What was the original problem with these models not wanting to move until warmed up and sometimes lifting rear wheels and spinning them according to the stuff I have read here or on other forums. Would it be a torque converter issue with oil needing to be warmed up and thinned out. What is the best way to confirm the forward and reverse clutch's are just not slipping? I feel it engage when moving the shuttle, but just not enough ooomph to move. Engine runs fine. I have read where people have just changed the oil and maybe put the right stuff in to fix this issue. Ours doesn't look like it has a cooler either. It might be a different radiator. Thanks for any information. Rip
It's beautiful Rip . I don't remember a specific port for the shuttle lubrication pressure but rather a converter charge pressure test port. I believe it was about 30psi. I'd have to check my manual because it does mention where the lubrication oil comes from. As I recall the shuttle assembly gets no lubrication pressure when not in forward or reverse, correct me if I got that wrong. I've been searching for years for a logical explanation as to why a B is such a dog when cold(below freezing). I've put my B in gear, stalling the converter, and after a few minutes warming the converter oil, tried to drive away, but it doesn't seem to make any difference. I explain it to myself as a converter efficiency issue. Case certainly solved it with the C model. The C will climb the hill behind my house with ease, with a B I have to flog it. If your B will spin the rear wheels on dry ground with the bucket into a bank, I suspect forward is okay, reverse should pass a test similar. Not sure about testing using the tach under load. I had a CK once with no oil cooler. These can be added in front of the rad, just enough room. I suspect a working temperature gauge sender could be installed in place of the sensor used to monitor high converter oil temperature, to get you by for a while. Phil
580bck This has been a great thread. I own a 580BCK shuttle trans with a lot of similar issues. When the weather is cool, I also have to lift the tractor and let it warm up in gear before it will move. The other day was running the machine and there was a fairly steady drip of transmission oil coming from between the engine and bell housing. Am assuming that there is a bad seal. I know that I will have to split the tractor to get at it. What should I look for as a cause of this problem? Will I need special tooling to do the job? While it is apart, are there any preventative things that I should do to ward off other problems that may arise? It will be a while before I'm home, away at a job. Thank you for your help.
It's probably the seal where the torque convertor connects to tranny. Heat is what usually gets these things over time, makes them get hard as a rock. Phil may be able to tell you of some things you should do while your in there. Welcome to the forum.
The B has a 'wet' bell housing. I think your gasket between the engine block and the torque tube(bell housing) is leaking. Could be the starter gasket leaking also or a line at the steering valve, so check this and check for loose bolts/nuts also. I had a small leak once at the corner where the oil pan meets the torque tube. I was able to remove the pan and replace just the lower part of the gasket. Keep in mind that any corner where a gasket overlaps 2 castings has to be clean to be resealed in this case. Wash the corner out several times using a paint brush and a strong degreaser like paint reducer or acetone. Blow it out several times with compressed air, then use silicone made for engine valve covers(black I think) to dab in the corner. Tighten the oil pan vertical and horizontal bolts together. Other maintenance should include a shuttle oil/filter change. Phil
Well, I learned something new today, I didn't know they had a wet bell housing. I wouldn't have thunk of that on a loader/hoe. :notworthy
580ck Phil: I spread the frame uprights as you suggested with a bottle jack and the crossover tube lifted out with no problem. I then removed the fuel tank with no problem. Then I drained approximately 10 gallons of hydraulic oil from the loader subframe and removed the crossover tubing. After removing the torque plate (illustration #30), I found the torque tube screen to be clean and unobstructed. I then took the torque converter pump apart and found the two gears to be tight with no apparent dings or wear. All other parts appear to be normal. (As originally reported, I had absolutely no clutch pressure). Any suggestions as to where to go from here? Thanks for your assistance. By the way, I'm also attaching two photos of the converter plate. The plate looks as if there is housing for a filter but no filter was found inside (probably because it is almost impossible to take the filter out once the plate is installed due to the loader subframe).
Phil: Did you download the diagram in post #92? If so, do you know the URL? Thanks. Tom
ATCOEQUIP & Phil: I just had the two tilt cylinder done. very satisfied! Now, the problem is that I found that the identification number on the LH swing cylinder I am working on is G102525, but I could not find it on case's part catalog website. I thought that it must be two piece piston because the tilt cylinder are two pieces. So, I ordered its seal kit together with tilt cylinder seal kit already. But, after I took it apart, I found that this swing cylinder has one piece piston on the rod. Actually, I ordered other cylinder seal kits as well, all identification numbers can be found on case's website and are all of two piece piston only except this LH swing cylinder. BTW, the gland on this LH swing cylinder is so easy to be turned, no hammer needed, and the rod was very easy to be pulled out of the cylinder, no truck needed . I don't know what happened to this swing cylinder before I bought this machine. The hoe had problem, each time, when start the machine and lift the hoe from ground, it always turn to the left such that I have to push the right foot paddle to correct it to the middle. I think this LH swing cylinder is the cause of that problem. I don't know if I should order a one piece piston kit for it or change it to two piece piston. My manual says that the bolt on the end of the rod is 1-1/4", but I found that this comes with a 1-7/8", well, have to find the right socket for it. Please make suggestion. Thank you.
Whoa, I'm a little confused with this one. The machine may not have two piece pistons on all cylinders of the machine, that's not unusual. You stated the left swing cyl has a one piece piston, what does the right swing cyl have? I don't know about your machine, but most I have worked on have single piston seals on the swing cylinders along with steel buffer rings.
Airr, If you go to the thread recently posted, "Front bucket on 580SE", Goose has answered a question on a similar problem. In the hoe valve body are secondary relief valves for each function, including swing, and I think your problem is there. However I have never worked on these. Tom, Here is the link: http://www2.casece.com/wps/portal/c...CaseCE&brandsite_language=en&brandsite_geo=NA Under Parts and Service, click catalog, then launch catalog, then enter 580, then select tractor. It looks like the filter housing used on the earlier farm tractors. One can see it on CNH under section 096. If you drained the rear torque tube compartment you will have about 3 gallons, the front compartment under the converter holds about a gallon also I think. Look at the bottom of the torque tube housing to make sure there is not a pile of debris where the pick-up tube was suspended. Check the integrity of the tube, and the gasket where it attaches to the adaptor plate. Check the 2 seals under the pump, you will have to replace them as well as all the gaskets. Check the relief on the pump. Follow the passages from the pick-up tube to the pump, and the pump to the fitting, going to the cooler/filter. Look for a place for a suction leak or any loss of oil. Have someone familiar with pumps look at the pump, for a second opinion. Phil
First pic with the old Olympus. Not sure how this will look. Shuttle in neutral. Phil
That is something new to me. Well, why some cylinders have two piece and other have one piece pistons? The RH swing does not leak. so I did not take it apart. That sounds like a good news to me. I need only buy the one piece seal kit for it. I thought that the pre-owner did something wrong to it before. Again, why the swing cyl use one piece piston in it while others might not? Thanks.
Thanks Phil. I'll check the valve system if necessary after fixing the cylinders.
Here is the swing cylinder. Should the black rings be replaced as the two piece piston V-rings? What is the pin at the end for?
Cool, pics are always good. Looks like pretty normal stuff. I can't tell for sure, but the outer rings look like what we call bearing rings, keep the piston from scraping the cyl can as well as keeping the piston seal from being mashed against the inside of the can. The piston seal looks like a typical Urethane high pressure seal. Don't even bother tryin' to pick it out of there, you'll probably slip and stick the pick in your hand. I just take a razor knife and cut the seal, blade going away from me of course. Then there should be a rubber loader ring under the seal ring. The Urethane ring, unlike and o-ring, is very stiff, you will actually stretch it getting it installed, then it will be too big in diameter (from stretching), and it doesn't shrink back to original size like an o-ring does. Some attempt to wrap the ring with something like electrical tape to get it to shrink back to size, never been very effective in my experience. A better way is an engine piston ring compressor. If it is, in fact, a stiff Urethane ring, here's what ya do. Leave bearing rings off, no sense working the piston seal over them. Install the rubber loader ring for the piston seal. Place the piston and the new seal in hot water, preferably on a hot plate to warm the water. You don't necessarily have to boil the water, but you want the two good and warm. Remove piston and seal, install the warm seal on the piston. Lay your piston ring compressor on its side, grease the inside of it good with assembly grease, slide the piston inside the ring compressor and center it up. Tighten ring compressor to compress ring into seal groove. Chunk it in the freezer until cooled. You'll have a perfectly installed piston seal. Lastly, install new bearing rings. Your ready. The rod sticking out the end is probably a deceleator. I'd say the hose connection at the opposite end of the cylinder connects to the end of the cylinder and not the side. If so, if you look into the cyl can, you'll probably see a small hole at the bottom of the cyl right in the center. Let's say you're swinging left, it would be pushing this cylinder in. When the piston nears bottom, that pin goes in the hole, restricting how fast the oil can exit the cylinder, which slows everything down. Makes kind of a brake when your swinging and get near the end.
Hey Phil, We are still trying to figure out if ours has a torque converter or clutch problem. If we have to split it, is there some upgraded parts we can stick back in there to make it more like a C model? How many things did they change to make a B a C? Thanks, great thread!! Rip
Rip, There are a huge number of changes made to the C. Redesigned might be a better word. No updates for your B torque or shuttle that I'm aware of, unless you have a Twin Disc shuttle clutch pack and want to put the Rockwell in instead. If your dash gauge pressure is good when in forward and reverse, and the gauge is accurate, the problem is probably in the clutches. Check the converter charge pressure. Converter problems with the B are not common, but shuttle problems are. Not that the B did not have a good shuttle. It did well considering operators seldom changed the oil in it. With the cover off the rear of the torque tube(where shuttle oil level is checked), one can look at part of the clutch disc assembly. The rear clutch pack is forward 'gear'. Phil
ATCOEQUIP, I haven't taken the rod end bolt off yet, in pic #146. It needs 1-7/8" socket and 1" impact wrench and a large air compressor to take it off. It is hard to get those tools for now. any other idea yet? This really discourage me. Thanks.
I feel ya bro! Been there...done that! There's always the hard way, we've all done it at one time or another. Looks like you have a pretty good bit of bolt head protruding out of the end of the piston. Put the rod eye back in the machine swing post and stick the pin in it. Have the rod sticking outward, like one of the outriggers. Stack good wood cribbing under the piston until it supports the piston/rod. Get a heavy pipe wrench, at least a 36", prefer a 48", and a long pipe that will go over handle of wrench for a cheater pipe. You should have enough bolt head to get a hold of and wrench it out. You might want to get a helper to put a smaller pipe wrench, like a 24", on the body of the large wrench between the adjusting nut and wrench jaw. This way he can keep the large wrench from "rolling sideways" off of the bolt head. Even if you mess up the head of the bolt, replacing it with a new one is cheaper than buying a big socket...1" impact...and big compressor.
It is as if there was a sliver of sunlight in the mass of heavy clouds which have been hanging for days. Just want to make sure that my manual says it could need more then 1k ft/lbs. to turn it off. the 48" pipe wrench can handle it, right? I already broke one 10" pipe wrench for it. Thanks for the help ATCOEQUIP!
Yep, I have one, Rigid brand only. I call it my "mo" wrench. If you wrestle that heavy thing all day...you don't want no mo! It's one of those tools I don't carry across the shop, I drag it! Used to use these things when I operated a horizontal drill rig. Got a drill string stuck in the ground once, the drill couldn't turn the rod a bit. The boss put a 48" on the drill rod straight up 12:00. Put an excavator bucket on the wrench handle to turn the rod clockwise. Turned it down to about 5:00. When he let it back up, the wrench went right back to 12:00. All it did was torque the drill rod. :Banghead
ATCOEQUIP, looked around for the 48" pipe wrench in online stores. Prices varies from this $25: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=1133 to the ridgid brand more then $200 . Can HF one do the job? anyone know the quality differences? of course I can rent one, but if the HF one is ok, I'd rather like to own it. Thanks.
I don't know, when it comes to putting serious pressure on one, I do nothing but Rigid. It's been my experience; if you want to do quality work...and do it safely, there's no substitue for quality tools. I think I'd look at renting one just for this job, just so you can get a feel for what it's like.
airr, There is a big difference in quality, I know personally Rigid is all I will buy,you would not believe the situations they have got me out of.but for 1 time use 200.00 is alot of money. kirk
OK I'll take you guys opinion. in my local rental store, $12 for the 48" and $6 for the 36" per day. I don't know what brand they have. I am going to take a look. hope they won't give me a HF wrench.
I'd just turn around and go back home...because you know it ain't gonna be a good day! :lmao
I once had a large bolt on an excavator cylinder rod, that I had no socket for so I made a wrench for it. Using 3/4" plate, I carefully cut the hex shape to fit the bolt head. By drilling the 6 corners first, it takes the guess work out of it. Then I welded a piece of 1 1/2" cylinder rod on it to accept a pipe. Another option is to get someone to loosen it for you. Phil
I have another trick you may try on any bolt that has been tightened with a lot of torque. Get a real heavy hammer or even a sledge hammer then hit the bolt squarely on the head about 10 or 12 times. You may have to repeat the pounding a couple of times to get the bolt loose. I recently repacked a hydraulic cylinder with a 1 5/16 hex head on the bolt in the piston. I was able to remove the bolt with an 18" pipe wrench on the socket. I also used a track bar by putting a loop of chain around the pipe wrench handle. I did try to remove the bolt without the hammer trick and it wouldn't budge. The track bar just bowed a small amount with me putting all my weight on the end of it. After pounding on the bolt it was no problem . I think the pounding causes the bolt to stretch a small amount. The hammer method will also work on drain plugs that are seized . I have done this many times and I have never seen a bolt that won't come out doing this. If anyone is wondering why I used a pipe wrench and not a breaker bar in the socket it was because I was afraid the breaker bar would break and cause bodily injury. There is just too much force stored in a bowed breaker bar when they start to bow a lot.
excellent thread many of the symptoms are the same as my old 580ck. my problem now is trying to determine whether the shuttle or converter is at fault sam
Shuttle Drive Pump - 1968 580ck Re: 1968 580ck: In regards to thread #138 & the attached "Pump Shuttle Drive Pump", I took the pump to a pump repair shop for evaluation and they were unable to test the pump. They did state, however, that it appeared the the relief spring and ball appeared to be out of place and that the ball seemed to not seat properly. If this is the case, it would make sense why I'm not getting clutch pressure. If the ball is not seating, the oil is simply bypassing the discharge port. I'll change the #11 assembly (see attached) and hope that this solves my problem. Any other suggestions? Thanks! Tom
the problems that you are going through with the shuttle/converter on your 580 sound very much like the one that i have. i have pulled the valve body and cleaned the screen . checked the spools and relief valves put in new gaskets but still have issues. i am still trying to determine whether the shuttle or converter is at fault before i tear it apart. did you ever reach a conclusion in your saga sam
Tinkerer, I have seldom seen that idea used but does work especially with bolts in large, heavy pieces. Tom, computer problems, sorry for the late reply. Check the pump drive gear key, if you haven't already. Oil the pump gears. Remember that the top valve body gasket can be installed backwards. Use care when installing this gasket as you will have the detent spring trying to get out or cant itself. It will take time to align the gaskets to get all the long bolts installed in the right place. Various lengths of bolts are used here. All gaskets can be installed dry. I myself put a very thin smear of black or blue silicone on the pick-up tube gasket, after I have filed the surface flat. Check the converter charge valve for any bind. Before installing the bottom adapter plate with the pump, on to the torque tube, remove the cloth that you have covering the passageways. Look for any foreign matter or remaining gasket material. Use an air nozzle( non-safety) to apply air to the two holes leading to forward and reverse clutch packs. I think I have a pic posted previous, showing these 2 holes. Using at least 100 psi and a cloth or similar seal to build pressure around the nozzle, observe the clutches move (through the rear cover opening). It will take several attempts. Dump 3 gallons in the rear compartment, to the full mark and add the rest after it has run a short time. If you use a temporary fuel tank, do not allow much air in your supply line as the injection pump will only handle a certain amount (before it get into the injector lines). Phil
Tinkerer: Thanks for the idea. Would this hammering hurt the rod, say might bend it? Just wondering, instead, have you tried to heat it before turning it using pipe wrench?
airr, If you hit the bolt square you shouldn't bend the rod. Those rods are really hard and much bigger than the bolt that is being removed. Take your time between hits. I have never had to use heat in more years than I care to look back on. Always-always use a good pair of safety glasses. I have another tip you may try if it is really stubborn that has worked many times for me on bolts and lug nuts. If the thing won't loosen try to turn the bolt or lug nut in the tighten direction. Evan though it won't appear to move I have had great success when turning it back to the loosen direction. Go back and forth from tighten to loosen. On lug nuts I am a big believer in PB Blaster. Spray them then leave them alone for awhile and sprayem again. Hope this helps !! I am attaching a photo of my latest cylinder repacking job with an 18" pipe wrench.This was after 10 smacks with sledge hammer. I have the hoe dipper down in a hole so I could anchor the eye end of the rod to the machine. It was hot out so I removed my safety glasses after the bolt persuading.
Great ideas and great picture. Thank you Tinkerer!
Tinkerer: I love the 18" pipe wrench and the long bar. Very creative! Hope it did the trick for you. In regards to my problem with the torque pump (which I suspect and hope is the problem), the local Case dealer wants $877 for the pump and a dealer in the mid-west wants about $525 for it - both quite expensive if that's not the problem. As stated earlier, neither of the two dealers in CT can test it out of the tractor. Oh well.... Thank you all for your earlier posts about the valves, springs, etc. You've given me something to think about. Tom
Does anyone know how to test a shuttle torque pump (A37570) off the tractor? My local Case dealers cannot test off the tractor. Do you know where I can ship it to be tested? The Case dealer wants $877 for the pump and I will do it if the pump is bad but I inspected the gears and they appear to be okay. Thanks for your help! Tom
Noob here (Tom) .. first post .. new 580B owner as of 2 weeks ago .. was reading this thread last week .. helped me find the right places to check my fluids Thank you airr for these pictures .. I will get some pics up shortly ... anyways, my trans fluid looked just about like your picture, so I changed it along with the hydraulic fluid last night .. then I used my hoe for about an hour without driving it at all, then shut it down for the night .. this morning I checked the trans fluid & it looks exaxtly like your picture .. my question would be how long before I change it again? Tom
Tloft, It's hard to get contaminated oil cleaned up, there always seems to be some compartment that holds a little. In the B model there are 2 compartments to drain, one under the torque converter and one little farther to the rear, both plugs using a 1"socket I believe. Even the filter housing has a drain. I am referring to the shuttle/torque oil only here, not the trans/diff compartment. Check the torque converter for a drain plug by looking up through the forward drain hole as someone slowly turns the engine by hand. I don't ever remember seeing a drain plug on a B converter, though. Lots of old oil in the converter to contaminate your new oil. Good idea to change it, makes them last a long time. If it's moisture it may disappear with use, extended use that is, as the oil must get hot to slowly vaporize the water in it. Don't forget to change the filter. Phil
Thanks Phil, I was already planning another change this week. Tom
Phil Just wanted to let you know that the problems with my 580b travel have been corrected now. Replacing the shuttle pump relief valve spring and ball, cleaning the suction tube screen and cleaning the shuttle tube of old gasket material has done the trick. Thank you guy's for all the advise.
absolutely fantastic! i have been following your progress and a post of my own going and phil has been a great help and we are still wading our way through it CONGRATS sam
Hi all, I think our problem with travel is also the pump. Can anyone explain the relationship of hydraulic pressure from the hydraulic pump and pressure from the torque converter. Looking at the diagrams is shows each one supplies high pressure depending on which diagram your looking at. I am just looking for a simple answer. Why did they need both? Do they supplement each other for volume? Thanks, Rip
Rip, Referring to the 580CK and B models, the shuttle pump supplies oil to both the shuttle clutch packs and the torque converter but for different reasons. The main reasons the torque converter needs oil flowing through it, is for cooling, lubrication, and to make sure it's purged of any air inside. Exactly why Case uses about 30 psi to pressurize the converter I'm not sure, maybe to prevent cavitation. The shuttle clutch needs oil to engage the 'packs', also to lubricate. Oil from the pump travels through the cooler and filter to the pressure regulating valve. " The pressure regulator valve regulates the pressure and flow of oil to the power shuttle control spool''(gear shift)'' and by- passes the remainder of the oil to the torque converter." Phil
Thanks for the information Phil, I think our problem is with the pump. With the clutch released I can't get over 145 psi at the clutch pressure test port with a direct reading gage. I put a shim in the pressure regulator valve and no change. Is it much trouble to pull the pump out? We have a hydraulic supply place in San Antonio and their website says they can test pumps. Also, our hoe doesn't have a cooler. I don't know if someone took it out and stuck in a different radiator or not. I thought about hooking up a gage to the filter outlet, but that looks like I might be just delaying the inevitable. Thanks for any help. Rip
The shuttle pump on a 580 B or CK is a fair bit of work to get out. Best to take the fuel tank off. If you are going to split the tractor to check the shuttle clutches too, then the tank can stay. However it is a big job to split a B or CK. Make sure the dump valve is returning to it's proper location when the clutch pedal is released...3.1". If your machine does not have the cooler (located in the bottom of the radiator) plumbed in, then it may have been leaking, and by-passed. A B or CK shuttle pump can be visually inspected, and measured also to determine if it's okay. It's my opinion that they don't have to be 'as new' to work, although most get replaced unless an obvious cause to the problem is found. I would do the filter pressure check before you go any further. It helps determine the condition of the pump and relief valve before you pull it apart. It is possible to check the pump inlet screen by drilling from underneath, but I have not done this myself. Phil
Excellent information Starting on a home project Case 580CK (1969) The information from the senion members is unbelievable.. Keep up the good work
Excellent information Starting on a home project Case 580CK (1969) The information from the senior members is unbelievable.. Keep up the good work
Hey Phil, Are you referring to the LH spool on the power shuttle control valve as the dump valve? If it is I can only get about 2 5/8" with linkage disconnected. I really appreciate your help. I am off to the store to get a gage and adapter for filter housing. Rip
I know this isnt the problem, but when I first got my JD 310B, it was sluggish, this was my first backhoe. Guess what the problem was:Banghead, Me, I had it in the wrong gear, I was trying to pull up hill in high gear HUMMMM :Banghead I worked the machine 8 years and never had another problem, guess it was a learning thingee for me:Banghead
Willis, My first backhoe was a 580CK. It only had 2000 hours on it. Previous owner never changed the oil and the motor was worn out with a spun rod bearing when I got it. It was a learning experience. Rip, You have the correct valve, I mistakenly refer to it as the 'dump valve'. I have added the dimension to check with foot off the clutch and clutch pedal fully in the 'up' position. Center to center 3.1 ". My paint skills are lacking . Phil
Gentlemen: Regarding the shuttle control valve, I let the spring and the ball fall out and don't know where they go when I reassemble it. Looking at the attached photo, I would guess that it is either hole "A" or "B". With the ball and spring in hole "A", the distance between the end of "C" and the casing is 1 7/8 when pushed all the way in. When extended, it's 2 7/16 from C to D. With the ball and spring in hole "B", the distance between the end of "C and the casing is 2 3/16 when pushed all the way in and 2 7/8" when extended. Phil or anyone, do you know where they go? (Note: The casing is upside down). Thanks for your help. Tom
Tom, Pull your spool out if you are not sure you are looking down through the hole at 3 different detents, at the spools end. Be careful of the seal lip. Identify the 3 notches or detents at the spool end (see picture). I'm not so sure it's either hole A or B. Put the spool back in and bottom it out on the stop bracket. If you don't see a detent through any hole, pull the spool out very slightly until you do. That should be the hole you want. Be careful installing the valve and gasket, with ball and spring in between, so as to not bend the spring when the bolts are tightened. The bracket on the spool is a stop, when pulling the spool out with your shuttle lever, so the spool doesn't come out too far. There is a bolt that is adjusted to just touch the stop bracket when you are in reverse, or is it forward? Install the valve and attach the gear shift linkage. Reach up and move the shuttle lever, you should have 3 distinct positions. Phil
Hi Phil, Well, I like pics so I thought I would send you these. I found the fitting I needed to connect to the filter housing. RPM made little difference on the pressure. With higher RPM the pressure actually went down. Do you have any suggestions of what I should try next? I know it is looking more and more like a split tractor. We are not going to do this, we will farm that job out. Someone was looking for a place to test their pump. Hydraulic supply in San Antonio says they can on their website. Thanks for your help, Rip
Rip, Your valve measurement looks good as does your filter pressure check. The pump is 'blanked' off in this test. Oil is flowing out a ball and spring relief valve. Not sure what to tell you about the pressure falling off as the rpm goes up. From post # 177: "With the clutch released I can't get over 145 psi at the clutch pressure test port with a direct reading gauge" 145 psi is enough to get your machine to do regular(not heavy) work, you shouldn't experience any slippage from the shuttle if this pressure is correct. I'm guessing your attempt to raise that pressure may not have worked because you did not use a thick enough shim or perhaps your valve body gasket(s) are leaking internally. Possibly weak control valve spring(s). What thickness of shim did you use? With your shuttle in neutral you should be able to adjust to get 170-190 clutch pressure from what you have told me. Is the 145 psi reading from the shuttle in neutral or in gear? Replace your shuttle filter if you haven't already and tell us what the machine is doing (all symptoms). Phil
Hi Phil, It has been slow progress here with so much other stuff going on. I put a .04 shim (washer) in there. Looking back at my notes this is what I had. (tach is broke so I guess at RPM) Released 650 RPM neutral without shim with shim 150 155 Released 2000 RPM neutral 145 (flux's) 150 (Manual says I should have 170-190 psi) Released fwd and rev all RPM's 145psi with and without shim How thick of a shim can I go before it would be bottomed out. It was a bugger to get back in there once I shimmed it. Is the shuttle filter what I hooked the gage into up front? I pulled it out and looked at it awhile back and noticed it had a bypass on it and I didn't think it would matter. It looked clean, but what do I know. The symptoms basically are in fwd or rev you can feel clutch engage and it feels like it wants to move and will barely when you give it more gas. Any incline at all and it won't. It feels like a normal clutch would feel if it were slipping real bad. I will read up on your other ideas when I get a chance. I really appreciate your help. Rip
Rip, I would try another .040"shim. I know it's a bad place to get at. Actually I have never tried installing a shim with the valve body in place, I'm not sure if it's possible or not. Replacing the upper valve body gasket is probably a good thing anyway. My only other idea is to replace the spring(s). Having no pressure drop when in forward or reverse is a very good sign. Feeling it 'shift' when moving into forward or reverse, at idle, is a good sign too. I'm aware the shuttle filter has a bypass valve but the manual says to check the filter if shuttle pressure is low. There was someone on the forum who changed their filter and it apparently made a difference. Rip, I don't mean this the wrong way but could you verify you are actually in first gear and that there is no drag on the brakes. A 'B' is a real dog going up a hill, they were known for it. Any steep hill(off road) requires dropping down into 1st gear. Will it spin it's wheels in 1st gear when digging into a pile of dirt? Phil
Hi phil, I can try another shim. I had to loosen up some of the linkage. The hard part is getting it started by hand again so I know it is not cross threaded. I used steel wool in the socket to because I didn't have anything that shallow. I can replace the filter also. By the way the pressure drop at the filter was minimal and recovered. The fluid volume maybe forces the relief valve open more momentarily. I have the gear shift in fwd left. We bought this for $1950 from an older gentleman that is losing his memory. He said he had a new clutch put in it, but doesn't remember when and was looking for the receipt. It has no brakes and rolled right off the trailer when we brought it here and I have also pushed it with my small kubota tractor so I don't think the brakes are the problem. It spins the wheels while up on the outriggers. When you say springs are you referring to the spring in the power shuttle relief valve and the other in the pump? Thanks again, Rip
Me again Phil, We have never been able to push dirt. It barely moves. The guy said it worked when he parked it, but I am not real sure about that. Rip
I'm not familiar with a B. Is this a model that actually has a clutch?
ATCOEQUIP, The CK could come either way I believe, direct drive with a clutch and mechanical shuttle, or torque converter drive with the hydraulic shuttle. The B, I think, just came with torque converter drive, or the rare hydrostatic drive. Rip's machine should have a clutch pedal but all it does is dump clutch pressure and apply the brake, if depressed. Rip, forget adjusting your clutch pressure, you've got a different problem here. The price was right though. I can't see both clutch packs being worn so bad that the machine doesn't move in either forward or reverse, but it's possible. If the rear gear came off the countershaft, and I recall someone saying that is possible, then you will only lose reverse, I think. Would you get the machine serial # for us? I'd like you to check the converter charge pressure. See if your test gauge will register roughly 30 psi, at the port on top of the converter pressure regulating valve. This is a small valve, to the right of the big valve with the spools in it. The allen head pipe plug is facing up, just 1"to the left and 1" to the rear, of the temperature sending unit. Book says to check at 1500 rpm and in neutral. I'm just want to make sure oil is in your converter. If that checks out, remove the rear shuttle cover, where you check your shuttle oil level. One of the bolts has a 12 point 3/8"head. Look in at the shuttle unit and see if the clutch plates look burnt. You will only be able to see the ends of them through the drum slots. Dip your finger down into the oil, does it smell burnt? Look for signs of something having been recently taken apart, a clue to what someone might have had apart. Look for signs of the tractor having been split at the joint just behind the cover you are taking off. Just some thoughts.....If you can feel your shuttle go in gear, a little lurch, then that rules out a sheared axle or differential problem, or does it? Does the machine actually move a bit? I'm assuming too that you have tried every gear. While the shuttle cover is off, transmission in 1st, turn the left rear tire by hand while the right rear tire is on the ground and see if the rear shuttle gear rotates. Phil
The serial # is 8720926 I checked the converter out charging out a while back also. It was in range except for the following: clutch released fwd/rev 2000 rpm aprox. should be 30-40 psi had 2psi Released 2000 rpm neutral should be 30-40 had 27psi Depressed fwd/rev should be 30-40 had 27psi Also on the power shuttle lube oil press, test port D the only thing out of range was Released 2000 rpm fwd/rev should be 15-40 psi had 0. I won't get to anything else until next weekend at the earliest. Before I take covers off I would like to pressure wash it and stick it in the garage. The guy we bought it from said he had a new clutch put in it and it worked after that. He is now in the early stages of Alzheimer's. We are in the process of trying to find out who did the work on it. Thanks again, Rip
ATCOEQUIP, I'm never successful doing quotes, so good thing there are still quotation marks. Removing the covers is an interesting idea. Wonder how much oil would fly up. I just threw the idea of a problem farther down the power train so we keep an open mind on this. Rip, No problem taking a break from this, perhaps you will turn up some info on the 'repair'. I talked to someone far more experienced in these shuttle problems than I am, today. Asking about any converter problems he had found on 'B's, he said only if the converter had a 2 piece turbine (riveted together). These would shear and fill the oil with aluminum pieces. The machine would then hardly move. We discussed the Twin Disc shuttle unit and he said if the machine had one instead of a Rockwell, then it could be burnt out discs on both forward and reverse, caused by the valves in the clutch housings sticking. I have worked on freeing up these valves, and I believe good clutch pressure while in gear does not mean these valves are okay. If your shuttle looks like the one in my last post, then it's a Rockwell. Pressures are probably okay as it specifies to check charge pressure in neutral. Port 'D'? I have no idea what or where that is. Part of the clutch apply pressure is applied to lubricate the shuttle clutch pack bearings, only when in 'gear'. Phil
ATCOEQUIP, I like that, sometimes it's just those ideas that get the problem solved. Your last line is the best: "So, somewhere down the line of the powertrain...something ain't gonna be turnin'."
Hello, I am back I took the cover off. It spit oil overboard when I started it. I put the cover on and peeked under from right hand side and it seemed to work okay. This is what I have. Clutch in, Neutral, Neutral: Center spins. Clutch out, Neutral, Neutral: Center spins. Clutch out, Fwd, Neutral: Clutch packs turn. Clutch out, Fwd or Rev, in gear: Slips. The clutch packs look good to me, but what do I know. Could it still be a pressure issue? Do you have an Idea of what I should do next? I have it in the garage now anyway. So does this model have a Torque converter, hydraulic shuttle and Rockwell clutch pack? Why were they so sluggish going up hill? Was it the torque converter just now able to handle all the weight? Thanks, Rip
Rip, I'd like to wait until I can see your picture. Should be fixed soon. Phil
Looks like you have a Twin-Disc shuttle, I don't have my manual right here to be certain. Reading back over your previous posts I think you are going to have to split the tractor and remove your shuttle, then disassemble it. There are 2 small dump valves in the aluminum clutch housings that become seized, that may be your problem, with those stuck, the machine won't go anywhere. I have heard from a retired Case mechanic that sometimes they could free up these valves without removing the shuttle. They are visible from the outside but I've never been successful at this. The clutch discs don't look burnt. Put your transmission in gear and rotate the gear at the back of the shuttle with a pry bar. After a few turns of the gear, the machine should start to move slightly. The Twin Disc shuttle requires a press for assembly and disassembly. It's tricky to work on and you should have a good mechanical knowledge if you do it yourself. A Rockwell shuttle will slide right in, in place of it. Yes your machine does have a torque converter, I don't believe the problem is there though. I don't know why the C model shuttle worked so much better, may be a less efficient converter on the B model, I'm not sure. Phil
Torque Pump WAS the problem! Phil: After many weeks and a lot of hours, I finally have my 1968 580ck up and running again. As originally suspected, the torque pump WAS the problem. When I took to pump to a pump repair shop, they indicated that the pump appeared to be functioning properly. Checking the tractor, all the passages were clear - the screen, tubes, etc., so the only thing that it could be was the pump. I ordered another pump (many $$$$), and proceeded to take the gear off the shaft. When attempting to remove the allen screw at the end of the shaft, I held the gear. Lo and behold the shaft turned! After removing the gear with a hub puller, I found that the "key" was broken and the gear was revolving on the shaft (which accounts for the fact that when the oil was warm, I could get torque pressure. When cold [winter], I could not obtain any pressure). Because the shaft was badly scored, I simply installed the gear onto the new pump shaft (with key, of course) and put all the parts back together again (fuel tank, hydraulic lines, etc.). And, believe it or not, I now have full torque pressure and I'm able to get some work done with it again. Thank you and all the others who assisted me with your expertise! Now on to repacking the swing cylinders! Tom
Excellent! Glad to here you got it fixed Tom. :woohoo That's a nice report back on what you did and what you found was the problem.
It's not my style, but I just have to give myself a pat on the back , from post #164: "Tom, computer problems, sorry for the late reply. Check the pump drive gear key, if you haven't already. Oil the pump gears. Remember that the top valve body gasket..."
Hi Phil and all, I put PB blaster in the dump valve holes and let it sit overnight. I tried it this morning with no change. I didn't notice I had the parking brake on until later and that the brake actually works. I decided I better change the filter because I would look pretty bad if all this time it was the filter. I researched the one I needed and it was a 25 micron filter for my year model and I got one at NAPA. The one installed was a 10 micron. I put the new one in and fired it up, took off the parking brake and it actually moved the best since we have had it. It doesn't move great yet though, only in first on level ground. I don't think I did anything to the dump valves with the PB blaster, but I am not positive. I guess my next step is to flush system and change filter again. I guess the filter bypass won't allow enough volume if filter is clogged? Would the difference in 15 microns have any effect on it? I wonder now if even the correct fluid is in the machine. What would be the best fluid to flush it with and for the final fill? Should we use the Case TCH or is there another suitable fluid? If you can't tell we are cheap. I don't want cheap to interfere with performance though. Thanks for all the help. At least I am starting to understand how it all works. Rip
Rip, The shuttle oil filter I use is Napa 1518 and I'm not sure of the micron size. Most hydraulic filters are 10 micron I believe. I doubt if your filter is the problem now and if a flush would help. I use TDH fluid from Wal-Mart. The last dump-valves(#11), I had to free up, was done by welding a stick of 3/32"rod on the end and pulling the valve out. This was with the unit disassembled. These valves are very intolerant of dirt. If you can be sure they are moving freely you are okay, otherwise not good, and it might explain the loss of converter oil pressure when in gear. If you are not sure of a good clutch engagement, and you should definitely feel it go in gear, then it's not good to drive the machine with the clutch discs slipping. Phil
Hi Phil, Any idea how I can check the dump valves for freedom of movement? Fwd and Rev act the same. What are the chances both dump valves would get stuck at the same time? I think I am still going to drain and flush fluid. If we have to split her we will save the fluid. I still don't quite understand the role of the torque converter since it has a pump. Do they just complement each other. I might try and reread the manual again. It looked to me that sometimes the pump was high pressure and sometimes the torque converter depending on which schematic I was looking at. Rip
The torque convertor is the means of driving the tranny with an engine. The two typical methods of driving a tranny is with either a direct drive (a clutch) or a torque convertor drive. The torque convertor is what allows you to engage the transmission, more exactly...to engage your forward or reverse clutch packs. The convertor "slips" when the clutch packs are engaged, same as with the tranny on a vehicle. Without this slip, you would get a horrid slam when you engaged the clutch packs. Then when the engine is revved, the convetor transfers the engine horsepower to the driveline. This is when convertor pressure goes up. The pump simply supplies oil to the torque convertor so it can use it to do it's work.
Thanks ATCOEQUIP. Rip, I have limited experience on the Twin Disc shuttle. I remember my friend saying that they used to get these back together and maybe forward or reverse would suddenly stop working while in the shop. With the cover off and an O-ring pick they would try to get the valve moving again, sometimes not successfully. As I recall, one cannot be sure that it is free, unless the unit is disassembled. Other than the difficult assembly, without the proper tooling, I do like the Twin Disc unit though. I'm meeting my friend who used to be a Case mechanic, on Friday. I consider him an expert on Twin Disc shuttle. I will pick his brain on your problem and get back to you Saturday morning. Phil
Phil, Your explanation makes perfect sense. I still plan on changing the fluid and filter this weekend since changing the filter made such a big improvement and I am going to peak on the cover again to see if it still slipping. Would I be able to see if the fluid is getting dumped out the valves with it running? Thanks for all the help. Rip
Rip, can't answer your last question, however the thought has occurred to me to pull the cover off with the shuttle stalled in either forward or reverse. I'm going up near Ottawa to see my friend tomorrow and I will ask your questions. It will be Saturday morning before I can post what he says. Phil
Hey Phil, How much fluid does it hold? Rip
you could try what we used in the automotive automatics, when i was with G.M., we put a pint of lacquer paint thinner in to dissolve the varnish in the valve bodies and on the clutches. after running for 25 or 30 miles we changed fluid and filter. worked almost always.
That's interesting carogator. Rip, the oil capacity for the 580 CK and B are similar, just look at the CK thread recently posted, for a lube chart, 15 liters I believe for the power shuttle. I talked to my friend yesterday about the Twin Disc shuttle. When asked about looking under the cover for oil leakage when the shuttle is stalled(shuttle and transmission in gear, brakes on, engine idling), he said yes I have done that and if the dump valves are stuck, oil will gush out there. A little leakage there is normal he said for lubrication. He thought it unusual for both valves to be stuck at once, usually just one or the other. He said the dash gauge pressure will fall off also, with a stuck dump valve (although that didn't happen with the shuttle I worked on). He said the rest of the shuttle unit was not known for any weak spots. After going over the symptoms, he said a torque converter failure would explain it, the machine will barely move in that case. I said you had found no aluminum grindings in the oil. He said it's going to have to be torn down, and the feeling I got from him was to disassemble the converter and check it too. Phil
Thanks for the information phil. I wonder what is wrong with the converter when they go bad. I drove it back up to the garage it would gradually slow down. I would put it in neutral for a few seconds and it would go again even in second gear. I too thought maybe the converter unless it is just not getting the volume of fluid it needs. I am also thinking about the lacquer and wondering if there is any seals or anything that it would harm. Then it is time to split it I guess. Rip
RIP we never had any problems about seals swelling or going bad. i am driving a ford E 150 van with 40,000 miles since i put in thinner and never changed fluid.
Gentlemen: Again, thanks for all your past help! I now have another question concerning the power steering pump. I keep adding power steering fluid to the reservoir and, after a brief time running, I need to add more fluid. There are no leaks on the hoses so where is it going? Is the bearing bad (no unusual noise), the seals bad and the fluid leaks into the engine? Any suggestions? Thanks again for your assistance. Tom
It's not unusual for pumps to leak oil into other compartments. I don't know of any other place steering oil could leak out on a B without being seen, except into the engine. Any excess side clearance in the input shaft should be suspect when you replace the seal(#26). Best to get the complete seal kit if available. Phil
what is the cost on all that....i think i have the same problem
Power Steering Kit I'll check with a few dealers on Monday and determine availability and costs. I don't expect over $50 however. I'll get back to you. Tom
I agree with Tom, best to check the dealer, he will probably want your machine serial #. CNH shows both the 580CK and 580B CK pump kits as A35970. Use can use this link to price Case parts: http://www.colemanequip.com/ModelParts.asp?page=&q=A35970&btnPartSearchSubmit=Search#partSearch
Well, this is my first post: I am in the San Antonio area (Spring Branch) and need some help! I have a 1971 580 CK B series. I have the same problem of no forward or reverse with the hydrostatic. It was working fine and then I noticed I couldn't depress the dump pedal and then about 20 minutes later no movement as I was reversing from pushing some rock. The clutch pressure indicator had previously shown max normal pressure and now only shows about 15% on the dial. TCH oil appears fine (I have added too much - do I need to drain it to normal levels?). The tires move freely (used the backhoe to move back and forth). Based on previous postings, I will replace the "torque converter oil filter (Carquest 85518 or Autozone WIX51518 or FRAM C1683) located in front of the radiator". I also replaced the dump valve spring since the spring was stretched and not returning the pedal back up. Now I wonder if this would be the cause of the problem (though I worked about 5 hours before the no movement problem)? I will also check the pressure levels of the pump by the radiator. Any further (Simple and cheap) suggestions for now?
Correction: I said "I will also check the pressure levels of the pump by the radiator": I ment check pressures at filter housing. Thanks.
correction Correction: I said "I will also check the pressure levels of the pump by the radiator": I meant check pressures at filter housing. Thanks.
Welcome Joe, Keep in mind when you mention the word hydrostatic that Case did make a rare B model in hydrostatic drive. Let us know if this is what you have. I'll assume it's the torque converter drive model with power shuttle shift, that you have. You mention a problem with the 'clutch' pedal not going down at one point, that is very unusual, I'm suspicious of your dump valve setting. If the cam on the pedal linkage does not 'pull' the dump valve back out of the valve body to the correct dimension, then there will be a loss of pressure. Check this out first. Shifting from forward to reverse does not require the use of the pedal. An overfill condition, I'm not sure about, depends on how much over. Easy to drain it down to the mark on the dipstick. Use the rear drain plug directly under the shuttle cover. Checking pressure at the filter if done by the book, is really blocking the output from the shuttle pump. Let us know how you make out. Phil
Thanks Phil Perhaps I am mistaking the power shuttle and the Hydrostatic - how do you tell the difference? I have the dump pedal on the left floor hinged from the top, I can use the left hand column lever to go forward, neutral and reverse. When I use the dump pedal it drops the pressure (or used to) and helps stop the BH. The clutch pressure dial is very old and discolored. The dial goes from about 10 am to 2 pm: is white until about 1 pm and after that it is colored green. The needle never went into the green and is now pointing at about 10:30 am. The serial number is 580 CK S/N 8679993 with a model 33 backhoe S/N 4192969. I have the Service and Operator's Manual but am new at backhoes. I grew up on a 830 Deere (propane) about 35 years ago, but this Case is 10 times more complex! All help is appreciated!
Hey Joe, Phil is gone for the night, he'll be back tomorrow. He mentioned they made a rare hydrostat drive which is why you using the term may have hung him up a bit. From what you describe of the "clutch pressure dial" (gauge), that sounds more like you have the standard torque convertor drive with a shuttle trans setup. Basically what you have is a torque convetor to deliver engine power to the drivetrain, then a shuttle trans which is hyd clutch packs that give you fwd and rev by the left hand column lever, and lastly a four speed gearbox to select drive range speed. Correct? Let's say you have the gearbox in any gear, and the column lever is in nuetral, engine at idle. You select fwd or rev with the lever and you feel a bump making the machine move. Correct? If so, you have a shuttle trans drive. The shuttle trans uses hyd clutch packs. When you select fwd or rev with the lever, your working a valve that applies hyd pressure to the selected clutch pack to make it engage. The "clutch pedal" on the floor simply dumps this pressure, causing clutch pack to release and giving you a sort of neutral until you release the pedal and deliver oil back to clutch pack. That's the pressure you are seeing on the gauge. The clutch pedal operates a spool on the control valve via linkage. As you move the spool in and out, it either sends pressure to the clutch packs, or dumps the pressure back to reservoir. As Phil mentioned, it's critical this spool is operated the correct in and out dimension. If the spool is pushed in just the least bit from where it should be, it will affect the pressure going to the clutch packs. I'll let Phil take it from here.
Thanks for the clarification! Thanks! You are right on all counts - I guess I do not have a hydrostatic though the previous owner sold to me as such. Not that it matters though. Hopefully tomorrow I will adjust the linkage and get it working. Your help is greatly appreciated!
Glad to help. Just trying to get all the details arranged for Phil. He knows the B Case, I've never worked on one myself, he can tell you how the linkage is properly adjusted.
ATCOEQUIP has done a very good job of describing the power shuttle. At midnight I was fast asleep, including the cat. Here is the adjustment picture. If you have the service manual that is good, it should show it too. I recall seeing a 1/4"bolt sometimes used, through the bearing, and double nutted on to the dump valve(flow spool). If you have to make an adjustment use a long, long extension, with universal and 3/4"socket, works well. The spring must pull the pedal back up to it's stop. I've had to add a second spring in some cases. The dimension with the clutch pedal at it's stop(foot off) is 3.1"measured from the center of the rear 1/4" bracket fastener, to the center of the cam bearing fastener.Phil
Phil; Thanks for the help. You mention: "I recall seeing a 1/4" bolt sometimes used, through the bearing, and double nutted on to the dump valve(flow spool). If you have to make an adjustment use a long, long extension, with universal and 3/4"socket, works well." When I read the service manual, I understood I had to adjust the cam so the bearing was at its highest arc, and then tighten the cam pivot shaft nut without turning the cam pivot shaft - and therefore your reference to long extensions and a 3/4" socket for the cam pivot shaft nut. Since the Cam bearing positioning adjustment is clearly necessary on my hoe, are you also saying I must also separately adjust the positioning of the dump valve spool given your statement "I recall seeing a 1/4" bolt sometimes used, through the bearing, and double nutted on to the dump valve(flow spool)." I understood that by adjusting the cam bearing positioning on the cam slot, that would set up the correct positioning of the flow spool. Do I need to make two adjustments?
A quick clarification Phil: I was rereading my previous post, and I thought I could clarify. The question is do I loosen the cam, then simply adjust/move the bearing on the cam arc track? Or, do I loosen the cam, then loosen the flow valve linkage and then adjust the bearing position on the cam arc track? It has been 40 years since I was rebuilding my engine and maybe I am over analyzing as I get back into this.:beatsme
Thanks Phil and ATCOEQUIP! Just as you thought...the new clutch pedal spring is not strong enough to pull the pedal up and spool out far enough. I yanked up on the pedal several times, and the flow control spool came out even further than it was doing so with the old spring. Now I now have more clutch pressure showing on the gauge (and tractor movement) than I had previously. I really had to yank up the pedal. How do I loosen the pedal up to help the spring? I will add a second Case spring unless there is another part the replaces the Case dealer's part. Any suggestions on a spring or loosening the pedal? Can I put some white spray lithium grease on the parts - will that help? Thanks a lot for your help - I had visions of a torque converter replacement in my head. Your suggestions reminded me to jump in and try things just like I did so 40 years ago on the farm! A life lesson reminder from two guys and a BH!
It sounds like you have one or more pivot points that are not working freely, like the clutch pedal pivot or the cam pivot. I've even seen the pin that goes through clevis links get stiff. Take your clutch pedal pivot. Over time, any lube that was applied to shaft/pedal upon assembly dries out. Get a little dust and rust in there, and next thing you know you can hardly operate that pivot. You could try some spray lube, but in many cases of assemblies like that your better time spent disassebling the pivot joint, clean everything, and reassemble with some grease. Try to take all the linkage/pivot points apart that you can and avoid changing anything that's an adjustment. You'll probably then find everything works great.
ATCO is right about the pivot point for the clutch pedal. Just unhook the linkage to see where the drag is. The pedal should have a grease fitting. Lots of spray lube will help over time. Any drag is too much for that spring even a new spring. This is a very simple mechanism. Wire the pedal up, unhook the linkage, then rotate the cam by hand to see where the bind is. There is enough room to add a second spring beside the first. Hooking the bottom of the spring is more difficult and requires making a bracket. The most successful one I made was a piece of 3/8" threaded rod with one end hooked to the extra spring. The other end of the rod went through a piece of angle iron bolted to the side of the torque tube, with a rather large bolt as I recall. I kept tightening the nut on the threaded rod and soon the pedal raised up to it's stop. No "I can't quite get it hooked" problem. The cam has a pivot bolt with an eccentric on it, so loosen off the nut a little, turn the bolt head, and it will move the cam forward or backward to give you the distance you want. Sorry to have confused you with the 1/4"bolt through the dump valve blurb. Just make sure the bolt that attaches to the end of the dump valve is ridged, by whatever means. You want the roller bearing in the cam slot to transfer it's movement to the valve without any play. As the clutch pedal is released and reaches it's stop(foot off), the cam will move the bearing to the end of it's slot, where it abruptly pulls the bearing(and the valve) to the rear, to the correct position(3.1"). It is advisable to replace your dash gauge, if not clearly readable, or at least verify with a separate gauge. Clutch pressure in neutral, and in gear, should be up to specs. Warm, cold, high idle, low idle, the pressure should be a minimum of 160-170 psi as I recall. Phil
580B won't crank My cousin has this tractor. It"s been sitting under a pecan tree for years. He"s trying to get it started. It has a new battery and fuilds. It turns over but just won"t crank. Fuel seems to be getting thru..... Does this thing use a glow plug? How does it fire? Where is it? All I see is a SENDER UNIT? Can anyone help??? Thanks, Thomas
Does 555b have an electrical transmission cut out? I have a Ford 555B with mechanical shuttle shift. There seems to be an electrical issue with the transmission engaging. A mechanic told me that there were no electrical parts, but today I was getting it to move or stop moving by turning the light switch on and off. The electrical system is all messed up and there are not lights installed, but clearly there is something electrical going one. Can anyone tell me if there is some electrical cut-out system on this model? Maybe something that is supposed to sense pressure, temperature, etc.? Thanks for any help. I'm a new user and could not post to a new thread.
Trasmission disengages as I increase RPM I have a Ford 555B with mechanical shuttle shift. When using the shuttle shift, the transmission is not staying engaged. Machine will start to move, but when I increase RPM it will all the sudden disengage as if I had move the shuttle ship to neutral. The strange thing is that I could get it to stay engaged by fiddling with the key or light switch. The wiring is all messed up and there are no lights installed, but there must be some sort of electrical shutoff or control of the transmission. Can anyone tell me what to look for? Thanks for any help. I'm a new user and could not post to a new thread.
I'm not sure where your defective clutch cut-out switch might be located. Not familiar with the 555B but I believe the only electrical connection behind the flywheel would either be a temperature/pressure sensor or a clutch cut-out. Disconnecting any wire temporarily from this area should prove out your theory, as a solenoid valve would be normally closed in this application, I think. Phil
RE: solenoid valve would be normally closed Thanks for the reply, I think I'll try disconnecting all power (including alternator) once the machine is running and see if transmission will stay engaged then. I don't think it's a problem with being too hot because it happens when that machine has just been started. The machine does not have a clutch peddle, would it have a clutch cut-out? What is the purpose of a clutch cutout? The only application for a clutch cut-out that I know of is on a car so that the starter wont energize unless the clutch is in. Thanks
I have to agree with Phil, cpelz. I've only worked on triple nickle Fords a couple of times, don't remember that much about them. What Phil is saying is that most all tractor/loader/backhoes have a de-clutch mechanism for various machine operations. One would be with the loader full of material and bucket low to ground, you drive machine to a dump truck to load it. When you near the truck, you need to raise the loader. You press the de-clutch button, this allows you to throttle the engine to raise the load quickly without the drive engaged. Another application would be to de-clutch to shift gears of the manual tranny when selecting higher gears for roading. The de-clutch is usually a solenoid operated valve in the area of the fwd/rev shuttle transmission. That would be between convertor housing and manual gearbox. What Phil is saying is look for a solenoid valve in that area and disconnect the wires from it and see if that makes your problem go away. If so, you can then operate your machine without a de-clutch (which can be annoying) or procede with properly repairing your de-clutch wiring. The de-clutch buttons are normally found as a button on top of the loader control lever, a small pedal or button found on floorplate around the area of brake pedals, and on machines like a later Case machine, there's a button on the handle of the manual tranny shift lever. There ya' go, that should keep you busy for a little while.
RE: de-clutch mechanism That all makes a lot of sense and would explain my observations and problems. I even think I've seen the solenoid you're talking about. I don't think I'll have a chance to work on the machine for a week or so, but I'll let you know what I find. Thanks so much, cpelz
Lots of great info here. I am new so tried to find a post that matched my problem. We have a 580BCK backhoe. Runs great but one morning went out to run it and it just wouldn't move. Initial thought was a shuttle problem but upon taking things apart we found that the Drive Pump itself had broken off the plate. Cracked right along the bolt holes. Once we fished the parts out overall we found the pump is in good shape. Can fix the mounting braket but the shaft is bent and apparently you can only buy the whole pump...not parts for it. Does anyone know where I can find a used pump or parts of a pump? Really just need the Main shaft as well as the relief valve assembly. Had planned on trying to fix all this myself being that money is tight and a new pump at over $700 is hard to swallow. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!
It took three weeks of searching to find, but these people have almost anything you want or need. Try MOTION INDUSTRIES, INC., you can enter their name +.com then find a local dealer, or if you know your part #, put it in
Thanks Carogator. I will give them a shot.
One has to wonder what caused the shuttle pump to break off in the first place. You will be hard pressed to find used pump parts, any good used pump will be sold complete, but you never know. Phil
Kind of a mystery to me too. worked with it one weekend, parked it and all was fine. Next weekend it wouldn't move and I never heard anything break or let loose. I dont think this pump is the original pump...so this could have been caused by someone, probably like me, working on it that didn't really know what they were doing. Either way I was able to weld the outer gear onto the shaft I have. Going to put her back in and see what happens. I live out in the middle of no where Texas so I am hoping to see if this gets me moving. Even if it only moves 10 feet I will know that my issue is just the pump and can save up for a new one. I would hate to spend that kind of money on a pump only to find out that I have even more issues. As much as I like the old Backhoe...and lord knows it runs great...I just cant sink a ton of money into it right now.
Clutch pedal and brake pedal On my 580b, when I depress my clutch pedal it pulls in my brake pedals. Is this supposed to work this way? I am having problems with my machine. I am new to this and seeking help. I also have to pull on the clutch pedal a little to get it to engage. Also my left side brake pedal feels like it is not working like it should. My brakes does not work or shall I say they need adjusting. The right side brake works but is very weak. So I am wondering if this is causing the problem I am having with little or sluggish power. Was wondering if brakes are holding machine back. The machine has a hard time climbing the slightest hill or when pushing into a pile it struggles. The motor doesn't bog down ,it just keep running at the same rpm(maybe a tad bit faster) The trans oil pressure gauuge reads in the green when in gear and clutch is released. When depressed it drops in the red or zero. I Just changed the filter in front of the radiator(torque convertor filter?) and my oil levels are ok. The oil does not appear to be comtaminated.
for those case pumps you can try to get used ones at www.tandhsalesinc.com Pavo, Ga 1=229=859-2643
HTR, I did have an old B pump at one time, if I think of it, I'll look for it today. Truviking, Yes the clutch pedal on a B is attached to one of the brake pedals, not sure if it's both or just one. A weak clutch pedal return spring is common for the B and any binding in the pedal pivot point quickly adds to the problem. Brake problems are common on the CK,B,C, and D. Fortunately they are not that hard to get apart. If a brake is dragging, the machine won't roll freely down a slight grade, or it will stop suddenly with shifted in neutral. Do you have good pressure on the dash gauge when in forward or reverse? Does it read the same as when in neutral? The B model is sluggish but when warm the machine should spin the back wheels when loading the bucket, in first gear. Phil
Phil here are a little more of my symptoms. I do have good pressure on the dash gauge when in forward or reverse. When in nuetral it reads zero and in gear it in the green section.The machine does move freely down a hill but thats because the brakes are so worn that there is not enough brake left to stop machine. When I press on the brake the machine will not stop.The brake pedals stick I have to toe pull the clutch pedal up(like you said worn spring). The left wheel does not spin freely unless I pull the clutch pedal and the LEFT brake pedal up. OK it might be enough resistance to make the machine feel sluggish but I did pull the pedals up when I was testing it on an incline and its still sluggish.
truviking: My local dealer found that the original spec. spring (B model)for the clutch/brakes combo can be replaced with the C series model of spring. The later model spring is the same length, much stronger and a direct replacement. Hope this helps.
Truviking, Hmm, before suggesting a shuttle assembly problem, I think I would verify your dash gauge, just in case. Disconnect this line at the top of the shuttle valve body where it connects and check pressure with another gauge. Should be 170-190 psi I believe. Check it with the clutch pedal all the way back(foot off), in gear and out of gear. Pull the rear torque tube drain plug and take a sample of the oil, any aluminum in it? Did your machine suddenly start acting sluggish or did you buy it this way? Will it spin the back wheels on dry ground if you push against a pile in first gear? Does your engine rev up okay and a little black smoke under load? Phil
Phil, This is going to take a few days for me to check because I have to order a gauge 0-300psi. Couldn't find one anywhere here. As soon as it comes in I'll check the pressures. I bought the machine this way assuming this was not a huge problem. Guess I assumed wrong. The back wheels will not spin when I am pushing into a pile in first gear. revs up fine and I do get a lil puff of smoke ubder a load. Previous owner claims the engine was rebuilt two years ago and was hardly used.
Truviking, Good to do this pressure test. If the shuttle unit has to come out then it's a good reference to have. Nice to get a 4' length of 1/4" hydraulic hose attached to your gauge also, the other end should be male 1/8" NPT thread. The liquid filled gauges are nice. A 0-500psi gauge would be okay too, that would work for the pressure check at the filter if needed. Some of the farm supply stores like TSC stock these gauges for less than $20. Shuttle problems are common with the B. They were very robust but lots of hours and dirty oil takes it's toll. While waiting for a gauge, with little effort you can take the rear cover off the torque tube and inspect the shuttle clutch pack plates. This is the cover with the dipstick in it. If they have been slipping, they will look burnt on the ends. If you do this check, attach a picture. Phil
580CK Torque Pump, Post #247 HTR: I have a used torque pump that has a scored shaft but I believe with a little buffing and replacing the shaft "key", it should work fine. If you'd like to inspect it and give it a try, email your address " [email protected] " and I'll ship it to you. If it works, fine. If not, discard it (although it should work). Tom
Hi Phil and all, It looks like gasket material on the screen might have been our problem. We are going to try and get the pump tested. Are these pumps reliable? She we be thinking about a rebuild or replacement at this stage. Is there anything else we should look at while it is torn apart? Thanks Rip
Here is some pics. Rip
Hello seen your fluid #2 should be gear oil , but i`d lift the machine using the stabilizers and go in 1st gear see if you have any tire movment with no pressure on them you might have shutle trans troblem usually cold it should get some movement . Good luck
Welcome to the forum Heavy386. I have a question from Rip to answer. The B shuttle pump is pretty robust and will tolerate a little wear. But because it's hard to access, one always looks it over pretty carefully. While it's out, and I'm assuming the tractor is not split, make sure the 2 sealing rings at the base of the pump are replaced. The pump intake tube gasket, of course, needs to be replaced, but check the tube's flange surface for 'flatness' with a file. Check the pump drive gear key. Remove the pump's relief valve roll pin and inspect the spring and ball, and look for debris under the ball's seat. I always take all the valve sections apart, but may not be necessary in your case. It's a lot of gasket scraping, washing, blowing with compressed air, that's after you've taken all the valve components out. And the spools seals should be replaced if spools are removed. Make sure the new valve body gaskets, top and middle, are correct for your machine serial #, there are 2 different top and middle gaskets. Be meticulous about cleanliness around the adapter plate surface on the torque tube. Any dirt or gasket material can easily get into the 2 ports leading to the torque converter or the 2 ports leading to the shuttle assembly. There are specs on the shuttle pump: min. 9.5GPM @ 2000rpm @ 110-130 deg F with the flow meter load valve adjusted to 200psi. Relief valve spring has a 1.90" free length and exerts a pressure of 17.5-21.5 lbs when compressed to 1.27". New pump gears are .749"-.750" wide, with an O.D. of 1.707"-1.709". New shaft diameter is .4912" to .4915". Phil
Forgot the picture
My neighbor's 580B wouldn't move either. I adjusted the clutch pull rod that is attached to the clutch pedal making it longer. Worked fine for 2 years. Must have got clutch wear on it, another guy adjusted it incorrectly, making it shorter, and then it wouldn't move again. The owner brought it back to me. I got mad, took a cutting torch to the clutch pull rod, cut it in half, and now it won't stop moving. Seriously, adjust the pull rod longer, not shorter. Give it some slack. Most big trucks have pull clutches just like the most 580B backhoe, not push clutches.
Hi Phil, I appreciate all the help you have given us. I have one more question. Where is the gasket material coming from and do you think we will have problems with it again? Do you have the dimensions for drilling a hole and installing a plug under the screen if we have the same problem in the future. Thanks, Rip
Good question as to whether or not you will have a problem again. Depends on how well you clean the bottom of the torque tube out. The only deteriorated gasket I have ever seen was the shuttle cover gasket. Someone made it too big and pieces were falling in. Silicone is bad for oozing out of a joint and later falling in. Someone may clean the old gasket surface and pieces fall in, such as on the starter housing gasket. Although I did replace the leaking engine to torque tube gasket on a B model and there was hardly anything left of it. The 2 upper studs had loose nuts. It's not likely that the adapter plate gasket or the trans to torque tube gasket would be a problem. I have re-attached a picture of where I would drill and tap for a large pipe plug, sorry no measurements. I have never done this but heard of it being done. The pump pick-up screen is the width of a finger, off the bottom. The casting is about 3/4"-1"thick and is well rounded on the inside also. Phil
Phil, Your comment is absolutely true about using silicone on gaskets. What is your preferred gasket compound ? Is there anything that will make a good seal and still allow disassembly without destroying the gasket ?
I use the sticky, goey, dark brown non-hardening aviation type sealer. I can still get it at the automotive store. I use it on many types of head gaskets(but not all), also on all flat castings. If disassembled within a few days, the gasket will not tear, but over time it's like silicone, you never know. Tin valve covers, oil pans, and thin aluminum housings all get the black silicone, but very sparingly. One has to be aware of every opening sealed around, and it's purpose, when using silicone. Locktite offers several products, like the 515 housing sealer, and the common 'red' loctite, that I use occasionally where there is no gasket. Phil
Case 580B with mechanical shuttle Hello, I am new this, so I hope I am doing it right. I am working on a Case 580B with mechanical shuttle about 1973. The clutch is shot, so I am replacing it. I put in new clutch, pressure plate, bearings, seals and refaced the flywheel. The manual talks about adjusting the release fingers on the pressure plate using a "Case" gauge I don't have. It also states that... "the fingers can be adjusted without the gauge. The height from finger tip to the face of clutch cover should be 2 inches". My question is where on the clutch cover should this measurement be taken?
Finger height on those pressure plates are factory set, I believe. I'll check my manual tomorrow and see what it says. Phil
Jak, You are quite right. The manual refers to the very rear(as installed) portion of the stamped metal cover on the pressure plate assembly. It might be irregular, with a few humps and bumps for the spring bosses, so just lay a straightedge across it and measure down in the center 'hole' to each finger. This measurement is checked after installation. It's important ,of course, that the height of the 3 fingers is the same. Lacking the A37956 gauge, eye-ball it as best you can, when centering the clutch disc, then bolt the pressure plate down evenly. Back the adjustment off on the clutch linkage so that the throw-out bearing is at the rear of it's travel. If you have trouble engaging the spline, try putting the tractor in gear and turn the flywheel. Phil
I have a 580B and have the don't move problem also, worked on one many years ago and it was the pinion in the rear end, might be this problem with mine but, I remove the transmission top and can reach in and move the bottom shaft a lot, bearing out I think so work that just began, this is going to be a long and costly project for me but when done it will be worth it, hope other come out better that me, Joe G.
Lots of great info in this post!!!! Im a new owner of a 580ck, and I know they are diferent, but lots of info in this thred that lets me understand how the system works!!!
Joe G, Remove the seat and floor boards, take the diff cover off and look at the ring and pinion gears. If the pinion shaft is as loose as you describe, there won't be much left of the gear teeth. I can't think of a more difficult job, on a 580B. If your pinion is damaged, you will have to split the tractor. You will end up spending a lot of time inside the cab. Phil
Phil, thanks for the reply sorry that I took so long to answer, I was hoping that it was the pinion gear only but when I reached in the transmission and could move the bottom shaft I knew it was going to be more than just a simpe pinion which is probably broken also, that would be the bearing in the rear of the transmission out, at leaste hope so, once I remove the hoe, front end, rear wheels, rear end the the transmission sounds like a piece of cake, well at leaste labor is free, hope parts don't kill me, thanks for you help, nice to be able ask someone that know, will keep you posted and will take some pics for the fellow like me who have never done it before, take care, Joe G.
had same problem. i thought the dipstick/filler tube under front of the seat was the transmission and was putting hydraulic fluid into the differential. it takes 85/90 gl4 gear oil. the dipstick under the steering wheel takes hydraulic/trans. fluid. now to the water in the transmission. i went through several attempted fixes and alot of $$$ before i found that most 580 have a transmission cooler built into the bottom of the radiator. from my research in the archives found its a common problem with our model. if you have anyway to pressure test do it. if cooler is bad phil gave me some great advise. the 2 lines coming from your filter housing ( front of radiator, bottom right, 4- 9/16 bolts) going into the bottom of radiator are your trans. cooler lines. buy an after market trans. cooler and by-pass the radiator/ trans. cooler system to the new after market cooler. the built in cooler is 10 inches so i would not go smaller. the bigger the more cooling.
thnakx for sharing great picture thread.........keep it up all the good work
Sorry about jumping into your thread... but a while back I saw where someone had come up with a way to fix worn out steering spindles with a pvc tubing sleeve. Any idea where to find that post?
Newbie needs help Ladies and gentleman of HEF, Short time 580 CK owner, shorter time lurker. Man, I wish I’d known about this forum before I’d taken the plunge and bought my backhoe. I’ve spent a lot of time reading the various posts and in particular this thread. The amount of knowledge and help available here is so unbelievable I hope I don’t embarrass myself. So here’s my problem, I have many, but according to the rules I need to post 3 times before I can start a thread. My 580 CK loses power in both forward and reverse. It starts to move and then stops when I attempt to pick up a load. In the picture in post #7 of this thread, there’s 2 plugs with dipsticks. #1(trans-axle) takes 80/90 and #2 (shuttle) takes TCH. What is the level of fluid on the dipstick? Do you check with/without the engine running? Can I substitute ISO 46 for TCH? I have a picture of another plug, under the gas tank, but about 8” behind the starter, that someone mentioned was for timing purposes, or is it for filling the torque convertor? I’ll try to post it. Thanks in advance for any information jim
Welcome to the forum:drinkup:drinkup "What is the level of fluid on the dipstick?" About one inch from the end of the dipstick(s), is a mark. That is the full mark. "Do you check with/without the engine running?"" With engine stopped. "Can I substitute ISO 46 for TCH?" Shouldn't, the oil Case recommends is suitable for use with clutches. "I have a picture of another plug, under the gas tank, but about 8” behind the starter, that someone mentioned was for timing purposes, or is it for filling the torque converter?" For timing purposes only. The converter will fill itself, if it has been disassembled; the compartment around the converter will fill(to it's level) within a few minutes, after a shuttle oil change. Hence the shuttle oil level should be rechecked after about 5 minutes of running and oil added if needed. Phil
Thanks Phil Thanks for the information. I bought an Ebay CD owners manual and most of the information deals with keeping everything greased, so any additional help I can get is welcomed. Is there anywhere that I have to add tranny fluid? And if so do I use Dexron(sp)? As allways any help is greatly appreciated. jim
Runner, I think both your questions refer to the use of ATF in your backhoe. I don't think Case calls for it's use anywhere, but I could be corrected, I don't have the operators manual here with me. Someone here on the forum has used ATF in their shuttle compartment with good results in cold weather, to help alleviate sluggishness. I have topped up power steering reservoirs with it. Phil
580 CK shuttle filter Phil, Thanks so much for the info on the ATF. I've dumped the fluid and it looked pretty gross. Not I want to change the shuttle filter but there's nothing in front of the radiator that looks like a filter housing. Could it be located somewhere else or that my model just doesn't have one? Thanks in advance for any and all help. jim
I'm quite sure even the early CK's used a shuttle filter in this location. Check again, the filter is inside the housing, marked with an arrow. Remove the 4 bolts to get the cap off. Phil
I have a early one and it has that filter. I guess the older it gets though a better chance that some PO was in there, butchering stuff up.
Filterless OK guys, here's the deal, still no filter. :beatsme And I don't see lines to attach one too. I'm open for ideas. I've changed the fluid with Case Transmission/Hydraulic fluid and still get the same results. Will move a little but stalls when I put a load on it. Appreciate all the help. jim
Runner, I don't even see oil cooler connections on your radiator. If your machine moves but stops when there is a load on it, it may be your shuttle clutches slipping or your torque converter not operating efficiently. Is your dash pressure gauge working? If so tell us what it reads, then reads when you depress the 'clutch' pedal, also when you shift into forward or reverse. Do you have any pressure gauges that can be used for testing? I will post a picture of the side of my shuttle valve assembly where the filter lines connect. What is your machine serial #(on dash right side)?
Phil, Thanks for your keen observation. I'll check tonight and get back to you. jim
Not even a shuttle valve assembly Phil This can't be good. First what I do know. Serial #8348690. After that things don't look too good. As you can see from my pictures I don't have a shuttle valve assembly and I don't have any pressure gages on my dash. I do have Temperature(works), alternator(works), Gas(no work) and Time(no work) gages. So what do you think, some type of prototype 580CK? If I still need to come up with pressure gages for testing, I can do that. As always thanks for any help. jim
580C CASE trany problems..confused..... I have been reading this thread for days now and I am absolutely confused.. I bought a 580C Construction King with no or very little mobility. It does not move forward or reverse, just an attempt. By reading here about the torque converter and trany it seems that the TC uses different fluid than the transmission. I in the past owned a trany shop (I did not do any work, I was just losing some of my hard earned money!) I have seen always the tranys using the SAME fluid, in the same housing. So my question: Why to use different fluid storages? I ordered the manual for the 580C but has not arrived yet and I need to get this baby moving in my yard (50 acres). The gauges are unreadable and I will follow the advise and install a 500 psig gauge, but I am not clear as to the diagnostics procedure. Can someone point to one procedure if available? In the schematics for the trany by CASE, I do not see the tubes that go to the floor of the cabin labeled #1 & #2 by the pictures in this thread. What I am missing?
Allnightrunner, Sure looks like a direct drive unit to me, you lucky dog you Either the motor stalls, or tires will spin, if you load the machine too much, if not, you likely have a clutch problem. As for the correct oil in your torque tube, I'll have to check. Bub, I'm assuming your have a 580CK, not a 580C. The C is a newer machine and does not have a dash at all like the one in nightrunners post. "So my question: Why to use different fluid storages?" By design the transmission on a CK is common with the differential; the shuttle shift clutches and the torque converter are common. I suppose there are many reasons, including the special oil needed for the diff gears, metal contamination from the transmission/diff gears, evolution of the machine, commonizing of parts from the direct drive model, contamination from failure, the list likely goes on, as to why they kept 2 separate oil compartments. I'd like to post a picture of the port location, used for the dash gauge. Will get back to you in the morning with procedure. Phil
My Backhow not moving 580C King? Phil: Thanks, I am not sure if I have a 580CK since all I see in the tag inside the cabin says 580C. It reads: construction king in white letters on the top of the cabin, just at the entrance door. Also I noted that I do not have gauge for the transmiss. or shuttle pressure. I have: Oil Temp. Oil Pressure Voltage Engine Temp. Also noted my trany has fluid just as if recently changed but with engine not running is full up to the end of the tube with measuring stick. I am concerned with 2 wires (disconnected) going inside the shuttle cylinder or selector right at the trasmiss. as per picture below: http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p1/electronmini/580CSelector-July_14-2010011.jpg On the right side of the transmiss. there is a T that takes or brings fuild from the radiator (probably cooler) that also has nearby 2 disconected wires and apears to have a little screw for a wire connection. See following picture: http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p1/electronmini/580C-Solenoid-1-July_14-2010012.jpg What is the proper procedure to check the transmiss. fluid level? Is it with tranmiss, hot, engine running, in neutral? Thanks..:usa........I am still waiting for the manual on the mail. Last one, how do I know if it is a CK or C or what? Hope the Manual will tell me what all those switches and knobs are:beatsme
Not even a shuttle valve filter A dog is one of the nicer things I've been called, but I have been told that it's better to be lucky then good. So I'll go with the thought that this 580 is a direct drive, motor won't stall and tires won't spin under load. Therefore it may have clutch problems. Could I have further caused the decline of the clutches by using the TCH, or is that still the recommended fluid to be used in dipstick #2 of post #7. I really appreciate your help. jim
Bub, You do have a 580C. The shuttle is one I've never worked on. Some on this forum have in-depth experience with these, and aftermarket rebuild kits are readily available. The wires may be for a clutch disconnect, the sensor in the second picture is likely a temp sensor. Oil used is TCH oil I believe and checked hot, in neutral, and idling. Phil
New to this forum but this thread answered a TON of my questions,
I also just bought a Case 580B and can't find the filler for the hydraulic system.
hey guys- got the service manual-torque tube reservoir is 16 Qts of TCH oil---------------------Transmission and differential housing is 17 Qts. SAE 90 EP @ above 32 degreees and SA 80 EP below 32 degrees- hope this helps! based on forum reviews and comments, a mix of Dextron ATF @ 25% and TCH tractor oil @ 75% helps lower the viscosity and reduce sluggish operation of the shuttle and transmission- I just drained mine and fill it with that ratio and my needle was about a third higher on the green-from what i can see and feel was maximum performance-NICE! no more hesitation even under load-very nice!Good Luck-
had the same problem-just yesterday-drained both plugs under tractor torque tube- got less than three quarts old dirty fluid! then i filled with one gallon of dextron three and two gallons of tractor fluid- guess what? its pulled me out of my field like a dream-really! very cool!Ive got the service manual- it says to use 16 qts of TCH oil- on the torqe tube fill.----------------------the number 1 cap in the picture- its for the transmission and differential gears- it says to use 17 qts. of SAE 90 EP @ 32 degrees-SAE 80 below freezing-my trans and differential is full of milky white exactly like air but i havent drained that yet- i only changed the the torquue tube and it make forward and reverse and smooth pulling out of a muddy field a piece of cake!pretty amazing!!!!!hope this helps
I also have a leak from where the engine block and the bell housing meet. I see Phil said it was a "Wet Housing" which I also did not know. Is there any way to crack this open just a bit to get some RTV or something in there to stop the leak. Mine is a fairly good leak.
Thanks for the pics!
MMH and PHIL Do you guys have a quick fix to cleaning the screen in the shuttle valve? I have a 580CK that moves real slow after it warms up. My guage seems to work OK but I'm going to replace it before I attempt the tear down of the shuttle Valve... Thanks again for all the info on this web site.... very helpful to all.
Love this Thread also, i was just dealing with some of these issues and theres a Ton of great information on this one Thanks
This thread is what I have been looking for. Fantastic knowledge and support. So here's my story. Bought a 580Bck 20 years ago. Used it for a few years, seal/gasket between shuttle/engine failed, burned up shuttle. Split machine, took complete shuttle assy to local Case dealer and had them completly rebuild. (About 2600.00 if memory serves.) Re-installed, worked like new for about 30-40 hours, and reverse just quit. Forward worked fine, no reverse. Pressure guage on dash in green when in neutral or forward, when shuttle put in reverse, needle moves to the left, well into the red, and no movement. This was ten years ago. As luck, or fortune would have it (depending on your point of view) I went thru what some refer to as a nasty divorce. One thing I did retain was my beloved 580Bck. (In retrospect, perhaps I should have given it to the ex, and kept some furniture, or dishes.) Well it is still mine now, and it still doesn't go backwards. It is now time to figure this out, and I humbly ask your help. I have worked on it previously, but time has dimmed memory, so I need to start from scratch. Any ideas? Thanks in advance. Steve
Has anyone tried drilling the 1/2" hole in the under the pickup screen to clean it? Mine moves slow and I was considering it but has not seen anyone who actually tried it. I may have missed something as this thread is a bit long.
First post here, but have used a lot of info gained here. In response to the drillng and tapping a hole below the shuttle pump pickup screen, I did that on my 1975 580B and it was night and day. I didn't take any pressure readings anywhere before or after, but after that fix there has been no problems moving the machine. The procedure described somewhere on this site along with pictures made it a fairly easy job.(My thanks to Phil and anyone else involved in describing this procedure.) I drilled for a 3/4" pipe tap and plug. The pickup screen is right there as described so be prepared to stop the tap drill bit from biting in and tearing it all to hell. I nicked the corner of the tube with the bit but bent it back to close up the gap. I think it will be fine. The previously described RTV silicone strands,etc. were cleared off the screen with scriber points, etc. I flushed the whole system out with diesel and put Walmart hytrans back in and she's been doing fine.
Would you know where i can find the thread about drilling the half inch hole to clean the screen ? i would like to try it on my machine Thanks
Hello Mike, I looked back and the thread I got the hole location from was "Case 580B shuttle pump..." on page 3.(Thanks to Ronspowertrain). The drill size for a 3/4" pipe tap is 59/64". I used a 15/16" bit and there was still plenty of thread for the plug. That's considerably bigger than a 1/2" bit when you're lying under the machine driling up into the cast iron pan. I used a variable speed 1/2" Milwaukee angle drill with my elbow braced against the ground and drilled in 1/8" increments. Like I said before be prepared to slow and stop the bit as you break through. Good luck with it.
Mike, You could make a sleeve out of tubing the correct length to slip over the drill bit. That would stop the bit from going into the screen.
Jvv thanks for that , and i am pretty familiar with doing things like this just not on a backhoe lol , and ive done several things to make a drill stop, if you go slow a piece of good blue painters tape wrapped around the bit or duct tape, or depending on the drill bit size , you can use a stop collar, if your not familiar with those they are awesome you just loosen the set screw move the collar where you want and tighten it back up, but thanks again im going to try and find the thread and see if i can do it , oh another thing im not sure if you guys do it or not but when working under my machine i take one of my booming chains which are 20 foot long and grade 70 and wrap it around the stabilizer pads so when my hydraulics bleed down which they all do on my machine it doesnt start going un level or even if a hose blew it wouldnt fall on me just a little idea if you havent tried it lol
Only my second post here guys so bare with me. I have had my 2 mechanics try to fix our 580b after pop's and I tried to fix our power steering problem.Trust me, it hurts to call someone out to help. We've been running it since 1980 and yes that's me on it at age 8 starting as slave labor...back to my problem. power steering is out. We have changed the pump, the lines, criss crossed the lines, gone through the power stearing cylinder and still nothing. It's worse than an old car without power steering trying to make a U turn. I got to use this thing to load pickups and screen topsoil everyday. I know she's got a few more years in her!!! Any suggestions???
Have you checked for pressure, seems to be the only thing left.
you may need a torque converter as I just had to do mine..Grey sludge means aluminum fillings from your torque converter
My 580B with shuttle shift has just started leaking trans oil from the starter seam and in between the torque tube housing and oil pan. Is this a fix where I pull the starter and replace a seal? If so, is this called a "starter seal"? I read where Phil said that the seal between the oil pan and torque tube could be repaired. There is a steady stream of trans oil leaking when it's running so I really need to get this fixed. Thanks in advance
Welcome to HEF kanui! What you are describing sounds like the gasket is leaking between the engine & bellhousing. Unfortunately, it requires splitting the tractor to replace it. Are the bolts that hold the bellhousing to the engine all tight? They may have come loose & caused the gasket to break. Tightening the bolts won't fix the leak but may slow it down a little.
This post intended for the gent who lost reverse 40 hrs after a shuttle rebuild but fwd works good. Don't overlook the possibility of the cap screw that holds the rear gear on the idler shaft under the shuttle unit that gives you reverse having backed out and allowed the gear to fall off. If fwd works ok and you suddenly lost reverse I'd check that first. I have had a few over the years do that and cleaning and drying and red loctite on the capscrew keeps em on there
Thanks for the welcome alrman. I cleaned the area real good then checked the bolts, all tight. I refilled the torque tube with trans oil. When I fire up the machine, the trans oil comes out at a steady stream at the bottom of the starter. Right at the starter seam. There must a be a seal inside the starter nose to prevent the trans oil from entering the starter motor. I don't know. I've never had a wet starter apart. Just trying to use common sense at this point but like I said, I don't know. The gasket between the bell housing and engine block is not leaking. It only looked like it was because of all of the trans oil on it. The only place I have trans oil coming out is at the starter motor housing seam. The gasket around the outside of the starter nose, if there is one, would not prevent trans oil from entering the starter nose. I would take it that the starter nose must be sitting there bathing in trans oil since this is a wet starter. Do you know if I can take this starter off and replace a bad seal in it? The starter works fine otherwise.
There maybe too much oil in the bellhousing, due to excessive leakage at the torque convertor. Try removing the starter, clean & dry the mating surfaces & putting some sealant on the flange. I've looked at parts listings between the mechanical (dry) shuttle & power (wet) shuttle & the main difference is a gasket & seal shown below. These would be to stop oil entering the armature of the starter.
I have pulled my starter and disassembled it. The 2 pieces that you have circled in the wet starter schematic were not in my starter. I wonder if it is possible that someone put the wrong starter on this backhoe and it has been leaking trans oil ever since? I wonder now if I truly do have a wet bell housing. The torque tube does have a drain plug right at the bottom of the bell housing so I assume it is a wet bell housing. This starter works good. I'd hate to spend $187 for a new starter and it still leak trans oil from the starter. The more I work on this, the more confused I get.
You will also need gasket #G46873 when mounting your starter to your power shuttle housing. I had the same problem with my 580B, missing a starter when I bought it, and had to use parts from 2 starters to complete the correct one. Seemed to me the wet and dry starter housings are different in this regard too, with a drain hole in the mechanical one. A good rebuilder can supply the plate and seals you need. Memory is a little vague but I think the drain hole can be blocked with weld. The solenoid seal is an elaborate one and needs to be in place to complete the sealed area. These starters are more challenging yet, when differentiating between the 9 and 10 tooth models, and the correct matching housings. Trying to learn more about this since mine has a gear clashing problem. I think I have a 9 tooth housing and a 10 tooth starter drive, so the .050" offset I don't have.The area under the torque converter should have less than 1/2 a gallon in it and not be any need to drain the forward portion of the torque tube to remove your starter, just make sure nothing falls in. Oil level is maintained by the converter throwing oil into a drain trough.
I spent the $187 dollars for a 9 tooth wet starter. I just got an email from USPS that the starter is in. I'll be picking it up in few minutes. If the weather holds out today, I'll install it.
Don't tell me it's snowing there too.
It's not unusual for Hawaii to get snow all the way into June. It's been raining though. Anyway, finally got the wet starter on and bam! Problem solved.
580 b case wont move some one help me
case 580 b power shuttle move good when i first start it when it warm up it will start to loose movment i have tried changing the spring and ball in the pressers regulator also changed fluid and found that trans cooler was leaking change cooler to external race care cooler sell have same problem can some one help me out with some more info i dont know where else to look for the issue
have to post more so i can use the site i all so clean the pick up screen
Hi I have my 580 torn down, and am ready to take the shuttle out. I remember reading somewhere the end play for the, but I can't find it anywhere. Can somebody post the clearance spec please. thanks Mike
Hi again that should read the end play for the shuttle, 580b twin disc.
You can download a service manual for the 580b here: http://www.minnpar.com/manuals5.asp...E 580 SERIES PARTS MANUALS&SSSFName=CASE 580B It should provide detailed rebuild instructions including measurement specs.
Thanks...downloaded the manual and found I am 20 thou out of spec.
Hey man I know I’m coming in a bit late but the answer to your dip sticks are, the number 1 stick is for the transaxle and uses gear oil, the number 2 stick is for shuttle fwd and rev and uses hyd oil, both look like they need to be changed. I hope this answers some of your questions.