I have an opportunity to bid a job for the 240! A fellow has 3 adjacent farm properties, with fence rows between them. He wants the fences and trees out of there. The properties are about 1200 yards deep, and the fences are both about 1000 yards long. The plan is to move the trash to the back of the property and pile it. The fence rows themselves aren't that bad. In all there is about a dozen mature oaks. The rest are trees up to 5 or 6", a lot of brush, steel, wood, concrete fenceposts, wire, old culverts, some small rock and other refuse. Even better, the fence rows are only 1 tree wide so to speak (10 -15') at most. My plan is to grub from the side, moving from front to back of the farm. Bundle the scrub up and load into a dump trailer. Haul anything that will break down and compact to a dump area and pile. I can put the big trees on my float and haul them to the dump area. I have a good hyd thumb. The field conditions are flat like a runway, smooth and hard, and dry for now. Having never done a project like this before, i'm thinking 20 hours for the excavator and dump trailer working together. What do you think? Ken
. Don't forget your moving in and out time hauling to and from the job. .
i bet youre looking closer to 80-100 hours,.....1000yd is quite a distance. Pj
2400 yds x avg width 12' is 2 acres. Debris haul avg 1/4 mile. 2 operators working hard, maybe 30 hrs. with a real dump trailer no 5yd toys.
1000yd is 3000ft.....thats over 1 mile round trip, then you have to take ur time with the barbed wire as to not get it tangled in the machine...etc... I doubt the 30 hours but i guess it could happen if a guy had a artic truck or a end dump (minus the tailgate) Pj
The time depends on the mess density of the fencerow. Unless the fencerow is very clean, it'll take quite a bit more than 20 hours. I'd guesstimate 1.5 yards cleared a minute, with the junk piled in small clusters beside you. Whenever the dumper will come by you, you'll have to stop for a few minutes to load it. When I did the math/guesstimation, I estimated around 40-50 hours. I don't know whose estimate you should trust as they seem to be all over the place, ranging from 20 to 100 hours. P.S. Have fun. P.S. 2: Will you have to smooth out the fencerow after the junk is removed (i.e. fill stump and shone holes) or will the farmer just cultivate over the mess a couple times and take care of it? Smoothing out dirt with a digging bucket is a time consuming and inefficient pain that gives lousy results. P.S. 3: An excavator rake would be a very helpful attachment for such a job. With them, you can go down a foot and make long swipes, clearing up huge areas in little time with minimal soil disturbance/hole making. However, loading the junk onto a trailer with a rake will be a bit tricky (but its doable with a hydraulic thumb). I'd estimate about 30 hours doing the job with a rake. P.S. 4: I strongly suggest running a cultivator across the fencerow to spread out the fencerow's elevated hump. It may also bring out a bit more junk from the ground. This will be especially important if using a rake because rakes don't pick up much dirt.
try to work out a hard high bid... with the possiblity of a refund to the landowner if all goes well.. they have a name for it I just can come up with it at the moment...It's like Bob I'll do it for 200,000 but if I make a good profit at 180,000 ..I'll give you 20,000 back....Probably not feasible for a little guy company... plus the Whoops! factor....New window... are the oaks worth logging? the good thing is there is no quikie store for the truck driver to stop at every other trip I went to a job the boss said ... it's all pushed down .. just pile it up and burn... about 75 acres... 1" to 6" trees... I was there a month piling and burning... didn't finish it had to go somewhere else...It wasn't piling ...it was shake 2 tons of dirt to get 2 pounds of tree
Very true... Last weekend, I took out about 300 square feet of lilac hedge. After 5 minutes. all the hedge was yanked out. I was left with a big hole where the hedge was and massive piles of dirt held together by roots. It took 2 days of tumbling and dropping with a loader and manually yanking and shaking chunks from the piles. The excavator work was easy, but that was just a very tiny part of the job - it didn't finish the work... it wasn't even close. I still have some mess to clear there. If you're dealing with smaller trees, its often a good idea just to pull them out vertically (like giant weeds). It gets the trees out without disturbing the soil much. If you have a thumb, all the better because you won't need a man on the ground tying chains to each tree. Just grab each one while leaving it near vertical and lift them straight up out of the ground.
These are all great responses, thanks a ton. The concensus is it will take way longer, so i'll keep that in mind. The guy called me today, i told him 20 hrs maybe less maybe more. He isn't really that concerned with cost. It has to be done. So that leave me a lot of comfort. If i go way over, so be it. You'll never get good at estimating if you don't try. You're right on with the dump trailer minus the tailgate. I will remove it before we start. The dump is a tandem axle dump converted, 15' box. I told the guy to have someone pull hte logs out of those oaks, i can deal with the branches etc a lot easier than dealing with the whole tree. Once we get the fences out, he wants a ditch somewhere. So this is one of those jobs that get bigger as you go. Could make a few dollars at it. Ken
I've tried to make this post twice and once I get it all typed and hit post the database goes down. The thirty hours may be optimistic for a newbie; but I do a lot of this kind of work cleaning up logger's messes. His longest haul is 3600 feet but his shortest will be the length of his boom; so his average will be about 1800' , or just over 1/2 mile round trip. I would be using a 40 yd dump trailer with a barn door. Off road like this I would chain the door open and pile 18' high and 15' wide over the top; haul about 50 or 60 yds. I have a Cat 215c LC; at 44,900 lbs it's a little smaller than his 240. I use a 54" bucket with 8" teeth and a thumb; back along and rake the surface rolling and piling the debris toward me until I get a load. I just did a job a few months ago avg 12' wide and 5400' long; strip alongside a dirt road that hasd been logged but the stumps, trees below 8", trash, limbs, etc. were still there; had to be left so it could be disked. I did it in 2 days with my least experienced truckdriver (my 17 yr old). The hauls were 4000 to 9400'. I would not want the big trees cut down first because it is much easier to take the stumps with the leverage of the tree. Once it hits the ground put your tracks against or on the trunk and tear off the limbs. If its not too big you can break the trunk the same way, if it is too big saw off the stump and UPS it to me and I'll have it sawed into lowboy flooring.
HA Good one.. Thanks for the tip about tearing the trees apart. I was wondering how best to stuff a 30' tree into a 15' trailer. Your job sounds exactly what i have in mind. Should be interesting to see how it goes. Right now my biggest concern is what to do with the dumped material. I may be able to convince the guy to rent a dozer. Push it up and compact it. I'll be sure to post some pics. Likely heading up there this weekend.
good luck
what to do with trees and junk.... let them sit in the sun for a week or two, then dig a big hole. Then light them afire, diesel fuel and tires make good starters but you didn't hear that from me... lol
Not sure exactly where the farms are located but you might be able to find someone (another farmer maybe) that wants to buy the wood for winter stove or summer camp fires. Just a thought...I know ppl on Kijiji look for wood all the time... Good luck with the bid! Sounds like a fun job
problem with giving it away is this, not everyone has the same timeline. If you can burn it at a rate of 500' per day or get paid by someone for letting them cut firewood and only get 250' per day, or have to come back, its not worth it.
we have put signs up before.... where the trees have just been knock down.... FREE FIREWOOD You'll be surprised the amount of would that disappears... They did it when there was a burn ban in effect... or when they were trying to reduce the amount to be hauled... Haven't seen them put the free wood sign up for 3 or 4 years The Ashplund Tree service dumps their logs at the zoo ... it turns the parking lot into a zoo.... because the wood is cut into 4 foot or less lengths... the wood almost disappears as soon as it hit the ground Metal... sell it or let the thieves take care of it...
Status update: After a half hour and 50' of work, the water pump failed. We're making money now!
HAHA Welcome to the equipment business! I think everybody here has had similar luck. Tough break but at least its something you can get fixed easily on site. Good luck with the rest of the job.
GOOD NEWS! At this rate it'll take 24 hrs! Just remember repair time, greasing, talking on the phone, drinking water, snacks, and everything else you can think of doesn't count in my estimate! By the way; welcome to the real construction business
Trying to load some pics So far we have a little over 5 hours of actual clearing, and have done about 1600'. Working pretty good so far. The nice part is i can reach all the way across the fencerow, with machine on the smooth field. Very stable, and smooth. Lots of steel, rock, concrete, old wood, along with the brush and trees.
Looks like you're doing a nice job and leaving it smooth. I appreciate the respect you're showing for our natural heritage by planting that tree in your trailer.
yeah well, you know.... i thought it looked like it will make a good firewood tree in a couple years. WE are moving right along, a load every 9 or 10 minutes now. I was planning on using a tractor and blade to do a final cleanup. But it occurs to me now i should use a 10' I-beam. I'll get one tomorrow. Should do a nice job, and no flats.
Finally got the machine running again (bad relay) and spent a little time grading.
you really need to dump that trailer more often... At least every 10 years I-beam looks like the right tool for the job...
i spent the afternoon grading. I can manage 750' per hour pretty well. At 30' wide it works to about half an acre/hour.
lol.
watglen why aren't the fields planted? Were the pics taken this spring?
Too wet this spring, couldn't get it in. We had 5x the normal amount of rain this spring. It started raining and it didn't end.
just one dump trailer for the clearing operation? Are you having to wait for the trailer or are you flip flopping machines? btw, looks like your doing a super job up there.
When he is off unloading i am grubbing and accumulating trash ahead of me. By the time he gets back to me, I have a trailer load waiting for him. The haul distance is just under 3000 feet one way at most. At that distance i am waiting for him. As we move toward the back of the farm and closer to the dump pile, he quickly gets faster than me. Most of the time, he is waiting for me, i can't get a load accumulated fast enough. We are at the back of the farm now, and he is doing about 7 loads/hour. That beam really works great. I have seen a lot of cleared fence rows, and usually there is a ton of crap to pick up manually. The beam eliminates all that. I graded about 1500' yesterday in only a few hours. I just pulled a pile along with me as i backed up. Stump holes fill with the trash, branches, and chunks of wood. When i got a big pile of trash I dropped the beam and set the trash off to the side for pickup later. If it was only wood, I could have dug a quick hole and buried it, but it had a lot of steel and concrete.. You won't be able to use anything with a tooth for a year or too, but a quick disk, and you can plant it.
what is all the trash you are encountering? where did it come from? how did it get there? How many trees are you taking out in all? Love that pic of the tree in the back of the trailer.
Over many generations, the fencerows were used as a dump. So there is stuff in there from the turn of the last century. Springs and wheels from old horse drawn buggies. The wood is completely gone, but metal fitments can still be found. Old concrete, concrete fence posts, steel and wood fenceposts, steel sheet, metal pots, pans, old bbqs, car parts.
While i have your attention, i have a question. That bucket is a 2.25 cy, 54" esco. The machine was equipped for loading sand onto trucks at a "sand plant" in tulsa. By the way she digs, i suspect that the sand was already loose material. However, i use it in bank clay, dirt, sand. Normal excavation type stuff. I notice the machine really doesn't have the kinda power to crowd that much bucket. If i put spade teeth on it, would it dig easier? What kind of teeth would you recommend to make the digging a little easier?
I have been running Tiger Tooth on my machine. I am really starting to like them. Always used the normal Sharp Penetrator type before. I guess if i was still doing footings i would still lean towards Penetrator.
Another question for the deer guys, my neighbour runs a deere 230 with what i assume is a normal digging bucket. He clears trees and such, and handles them without a thumb. The bucket clamps against the stick. I have only run Komatsu and my Volvo, and neither of them will do that. Is the deere stick/bucket design intended to work this way, or is it just a fluke on his machine?
I do that with my 345 all the time. It has to be a decent sized tree for it to work.
My Deere 200LC curls the bucket up all the way till the teeth hit the stick (actually the cylinder can go even further but the stick prevents the bucket from curling further). It's quite useful for grabbing things, though I'd prefer to have a real hydraulic thumb for such work.
I retract my statement - bad memory . The bucket can touch the boom when the stick is curled in, but the bucket doesn't touch the stick. The teeth stay about 18" away from the stick when fully curled in. Still, it is possible to grab stuff this way.
One thing I'm learning is working on dry ground seems to be tuf on the chassis. I'm working in absolutely dry conditions. I'm watching the sprockets and bushings wear fast. Lots of steel on steel sounds. Plus it takes a lot of power to make turns. You can tell the drive motors are struggling. Much easier to move when its just a little slippery. And less wear.
Are you jump turning or just skidding a track?
You do have some slack in tracks don't you? Tracks too tight can cause this.
Tracks are per manual, that is 13" of slack when the track is picked up off the ground. And jump turning? Hmmm... Well, i do a bunch of different things. Sometimes i just push one pedal. Sometimes i counter-rotate both tracks, sometime i pick up one track slightly and spin it, while using the swing power to assist. Anything wrong with any of those?
it's a heavy machine on dry dirt, She's gonna make some "groans and moans" there aint much you can do about it, except shut the door and crank up the radio I normally try to pick up and spin the underbody with the boom as much as possible, I think that's what he's calling "jump turning" I never really knew it had a name I guess....but as with ALL big machines, try to NOT counter rotate whenever possible Pj
"but as with ALL big machines, try to NOT counter rotate whenever possible" ok, thanks. I didn't know that.
Close to done now I'm getting close to done finally. Been there for 3 weeks now. The farm is quit flat, and wet. There is a decent amount of fall for drainage. The problem is the upstream neighbours drain well, the downstream neighbours don't drain at all. So the farm is a gigantic collection point for millions of gallons of water. When I started ditching, there was a 2" rain the night before, and there had to be 5 acres of water, about 6" deep all over the back of the farm So i spent some time in the bush, trying to figure out where the water is supposed to go. I cleared a path and cut a canal to get the water to the outlet. Moved a ton of water in a hurry. The owner is going to be really happy.
I'm finally finished. It took 3 wks on and off. Mitch504 had it right at 30 hrs to clean the fencerows. The owner added some more fence and whatnot. Then cleanup/grading, and ditching. The volvo has about 60 hrs on it, and the Magnum has about 40. For me, that was a big job. The owner is really going to like it though, his drainage issues should be history. Thanks for all the input Ken
Feels good doesn't it? Now go get another one and keep on keeping on. edit: How'd you come out?
Figuring out the invoice, I put 37.9 hrs on the magnum and burned 567 ltrs I put 59.4 hrs on the volvo, and burned 1005 ltrs That was working as fast as i could go, at full throttle almost the entire time. I don't think we burned too much fuel. $2200 in breakdowns. About $750 for my helper I guess we made out ok. But you wouldn't be doing yourself a favor by giving people a break on the price. The way things go wrong, if you can't get a good rate, then leave it parked.
"if you can't get a good rate, then leave it parked. " I wish we could convince everybody of that.