My old Case 530 was my Grandfather's. I've owned since his passing in 1989. The tractor has always started and run flawlessly for all these years. After sitting for about a month, went to start and started up for a few seconds and quit. After checking all filters and screen filter in top of pump all found clean and flowing fuel. Then checked returned fuel line, all clear. When cranking found NO fuel coming from pump banjo lines. My pump number is DBGFCC431-30JA. Any suggestions will be grateful.
Loosen the lines AT THE INJECTORS.. THAT will get the air out of the system.. & you'll be able to SEE if its pumping..
Work the shut-off cable back & forth WHILE SPINNING the engine.. The metering valve might be hung up??
The lines at the injectors are rusted solid between line going through nut. Have soaked down with Blaster but no luck yet.
GOTTA use 2 wrenches.. penetrating oil doesn't hurt.
9/16'' on injector and 3/4'' on line nut. Got them loose with no damage. Blaster had been soaking for two days. Turned engine over for 10 to 15 seconds and no fuel at top of lines.
That's what I figured.. Time to take the top cover off & see if the metering valve is stuck..
Pulled top cover off and found very small black pieces (like coffee grounds) laying in bottom.
Aah yes, the dreaded carbon impeller brushes rotted out. If its like the RM that allis used, there is a work-around. Install a electric fuel pump in the input line, from the last filter, to the input of the pump. This will pump diesel, from the filter, through the impeller pump, into the injector pump... Er ah, you did check fer fuel, in the tank, dintcha?
The "flex-ring has deteriorated.. time to rip it apart.. no other way around it.. IF you wait to long.. you wont be able to control the engine rpms.. but then again, you cant get it started.. If you want me to do it, just ask..
Would this rebuild be possible doing it myself ? Just figured out to send these pictures from yesterday.
I don't know your mechanical ability.. I see where you've been scopein' out old threads where I walked guys thru rebuilds..[2015] If you can follow those posts, sure.. go for it..
Where would be a good place to purchase parts?
If you have a fuel inj. shop close by.. it'll save the shipping cost & wait time. Otherwise ebay is a good option.. some w/ free shipping & no tax.. always good to save a few bucks.
Take it off, send it to TPG or someone that does these regularly, let them look it ALL over internally and repair it where will last a good long time, you will not regret the money spent if you do not have to do it twice or three times as so many I know have.
Would you update to the 29111 weight carrier?
You can bypass the Check Fitting(just below fitting #5) by removing it, to operate the engine temporarily. I'd also add, replace the injectors while you're at it. Also, the Check Fitting will need to be replace. When the Flex Ring(#22) comes apart, it plugs the Check Fitting.
Not much to them.
Thanks for the help...........
That pump DOES NOT HAVE a check ball return connector.. Some information is exactly worth what you pay for it..
Yes, I've checked that out this afternoon. Thanks
SA. It may not look as in the diagram I posted. It may be a 90° fitting, or a "Tee". The purpose of the check is to prevent return fuel from entering the pump, blocking fuel delivery from the fuel tank return line, or injector return line. Of course, you might know that.
THATS NOT what the check valve is for.. lets not confuse the kid any more than needed.
What is it for PSG ?
The check is to maintain case-pressure near 3-4 psi, and also to preventing return fuel from entering the pump housing during low case pressure . Most, if not all pumps will operate without the check in place. When the governor flex ring degrades, particles of it become lodged in the check and slow, or stop the return flow. When this happens, the case-pressure within the pump will equalize to the transfer pressure. Once this happens, the delivery plungers move away from the rollers and no longer deliver fuel to the injectors. With that said, the engine will not crank and/or run.
That is exactly what happened to the stanadyne on my 180 Allis, pulled the fitting, cleared the choke and was in business to get it home and get the pump off for repairs. All I had to do was bring the timing mark up in the side sight window, pulled the batt cable so would not bump and dragged pump off. Pump gone thru, new transfer pump as well flex coupling parts, cleaned and new umbrella seals, back in business and doing well some 6 years later.
Found DB reseal kits on e-bay for $30.00 bucks shipped. Have not decided what to do yet. Neighboring town pump shop wants $450.00 to reseal.
Kit # is 24371> but theres more to it than just a kit.. liner, blades>standard or oversize, metering valve & shim> standard or o/s, delivery valve>standard or o/s & spring, pilot tube & epoxy, shut off clip, & a weight cage if your rivets are smashed.. > a T45 torx bit & an inlb torque wrench & the knowledge to use them. PM heading your way.
Rod, I'm not here to argue. but that information you have was written in 1960..?? Housing pressure, {case pressure,LOL} runs 8-12 psi. That info sounds like it came from a high school or tech school manual? & once again, his equipment does not have a check ball return, ANYWHERE in the system. So we're discussing nothing of any importance to the mans problem. GRANTED, the flex ring could have gotten into the small return line going back to the fuel tank & clogged it.. BUT.. HE ALREADY SAID, its clear.. POST #1.. IF you have ever read any of my posts concerning inj. pump diagnostics.. you would see that the primary diagnostic is to remove the check ball return fitting & run the engine w/o it.. I DO THAT for pumps THAT HAVE A check ball return fitting.. Thank you for playing..
I helped out a friend with oe of them roosta pumps kits are cheap ,knowledge to do it correctly is not, 450 i think is around what he paid to have his pump done also probably one of the cheapest pumps around to have rebuilt correctly .
"Roosta" Lol Being in the injection pump industry for over 30 years I've heard dam near every variation of pump names.. They crack me up, STILL. Lol The actual pump name{ before the name change} is Roosa Master.. My absolute favorite is> Rooster Masher... LOL!!! IF you can imagine, having a really bad day.. picking up the phone is the service dept.[friggin phone] & on the other end, a Southern Gentleman saying.. I gots me one of them thar Rooster Masher pumps & I thinks it needs to be gone thru.?? w/ a SLOW, "HEAVY" Southern accent.. It STILL cracks me up..
Case 530, Manufactured 1960-1969. Just know, we're all in the same boat here. I did find where this system does not having a check , so you are correct (this time) . No problem. Glad I could help.
Glad i could bring you a chuckle at 5:30 am
You for got to mention the half a bag of Redman tabacky he had to have in his mouth. I used to talk with a guy at one of our company's mechanics at a plant just north of Richmond Va., Dooouuug, or at least that's how he seemed to spell it! Maybe left out a few "o"s or "u"s. Had to wipe out my ear and the phone after a call from him! Great guy and I was lucky to actually get to spend a few days working down there with him and the other guys at that plant. Almost got to understand what they were saying 80% of the time!
I know whatcha mean.. I found myself finishing peoples sentences, just because I cant wait that long.. ESPECIALLY.. when they're telling you a symptom you ALREADY KNOW.. IIIITS got lo poooer'.. then..then.. then... iiiiit shut ooooff... NOOOW itititit wonts staaaat... THAT stuttering "I" will make my skin crawl every time.!!!! & THEN they gotta go into what they did & what they found.. ALL I NEED TO KNOW is> whats your address & phone #..
Ordered a DB service and repair manual off e-bay to study. Not sure what direction I'm going in yet. My or may not take the plunge. Was reading about a Bristol screwdriver, have a shop full of tools and never heard of that one. I guess, never to old to keep learning.
Stanadyne, {roosa master} went from a Bristol bit to a T45 w/ a support bushing..P#>21178 I highly rec. getting the bushing.
They don't update the manuals.. they send out service bulletins.. That's why that info isn't in there..
Where can I purchase the support bushing?
Dam! You guys are making me learn new stuff all the time! I had to do a Google search on this "Bristol Bit" and 99% of the images that came up were for something you stick in a horses mouth! At least it didn't show some thing for the other end! Then I finally found a picture that made a bit(pun not intended) more sense! I would have thought that was a spline drive but guess some guy over in Bristol England dessigned it and thought that was a better name!
It might be the same Guy that wrote the song Bristol Stomp!!!
Google> Stanadyne 21178.. geesh.. The P# for the actual Stanadyne "T45" is 24992.. just incase you don't have one.. THIS IS WHY people get paid to rebuild them..
That IS why I had mine rebuilt!!!
Step one; Like this (top of the page); HeavyEquipmentForums Step 2; Pay someone to rebuild it.
I'd suggest you take the pump to a InjectionShop for rebuild. If the cam screw splits/breaks while trying to remove it (it can be a tough bugger to remove) , you'll have bought yourself more problems. It's not as easy as using the Cam Screw Tool(bristle tool), it's knowing HOW to use the tool. Once the cam screw breaks, you have to saw the pump housing to disassemble it. MO-Money!!!
Man, you aint kiddin.!!! I've broken my share & it aint fun.. your heart sinks & you say some BAD words when THAT happens.. I've received pumps where the customer "tried" to o/h the pump & broken the screw.. & they "forgot" to tell me.. THATS WHY I tell people> it costs MORE if you disassemble the pump before sending it to me.. What a PITA THAT IS.. I've actually written/warned about it.. 1 guy that I was helping {warned him} actually came back to the site & told about breaking his & he had to take it to a machine shop to get it removed.. $$$$
Even the top cover screws will break off if your not careful.. & just TRY to drill, tap & helicoil THAT tiny friggin screw..in an aluminum housing..NOT FUN.. I had 1 customer "try" & broke the tap off in the hole.!! & THEN I got the job.. fun, fun, fun..
Ive been in this business 30+ years and I would NEVER try to rebuild an injection pump myself. Its cheaper to let the pros do it.
A person MIGHT get lucky and do the overhaul without a hitch, but I wouldn't suggest it. I've broke my share of cam screws and cover screws, but after a few time, you learn the tricks when disassembling. There's more to just rebuilding these pumps. There is the calibration and all that goes along with it. I had one customer how rebuilt his pump himself (JD 5020 tractor) . He was so proud of himself. Once he bled the system and cranked the engine, something jammed in the pump (metering valve - you know what I'm talking about) the engine began to run-away. He put the tractor in-gear, held the brakes and released the clutch, to try to kill the engine. By that time, the engine's tach had pegged and it wasn't a happy ending. He had parked his pickup truck in front of the tractor. Guess what happened. Yep, besides the hole in the engine block (connecting rod failure) of his tractor, he also had a damaged truck bed. It's a darn good thing no one was standing nearby.
..& lets not forget about the folks that "just want the pilot tube replaced".. "it was running great.. just getting fuel in the oil.." I gotta take it off anyway.. just let me go thru it.. NOPE.. it's runnin great.. OOOOKAY..its your call.. I put it back on..got my money.. & never made it from his driveway to the road.. & the phone is ringin.. This thing is runnin away!!! I cant control the rpm's..!!! I told ya.. WELL HOW MUCH IS THIS GONNA COST ME??!! twice as much as the 1st time.. {dumb-azz}
Good morning, Do you have any suggestions on where to purchase the support bushing #21178 ? I'm having no luck.
I have an extra set that I keep for "accidents".. brand new in the package.. Bit & bushing.. Click on my name & hit> "start a conversation" to discuss it..
I guess I'll do it.. geesh..
Update. Went out to the tractor yesterday afternoon to put some thought into it. Took the top back off the pump as before. Un bolted the throttle rod at the pump leaver. Moved the throttle back and forth, looking closely into the body saw that the metering valve was not moving at all. Just could touch the top of the valve with my finger. It was very slow to move. Sprayed some pb blaster on to it and started moving freely. There is a fine glaze of dried diesel fuel in the top of the body. Looks seemlier to the yellow glaze left from old gas in carburetor boils I've rebuilt in the past. Anyway, reinstalled the top of the bump, turned fuel on, bled top of injectors and she started, runs like it always has. Yes, I'm sure this is just a temporary fix .But I have piece of mind that no metal parts are broken and the pump rebuild cost will be on the lower end.
See post #3... Altho you got it running..Unfortunatly THERE WILL BE metal parts broken.. The black specks that were in the pump aka: flex ring: "WERE" keeping metal parts from banging into each other.. The flex ring is OBVIOUSLY broken & flaking off.. guess what comes next?? First will be FLAKES of metal thru out the fuel system, back to the fuel tank & in the filters.. THEN>> CHUNKS of metal thru the engine block, when the engine speed is no longer controllable from the injection pump being neglected.. Unfortunatly the cost WILL BE ON THE HIGHER SIDE if you continue to run this machine.. BUT HEY> congratulations for getting it running.. I've seen them run like that for months.. AND.. I've seen them run like that for minutes.. until the speed becomes uncontrollable.. & just a "side note".. You only get a couple of chances to shut it down, when the speed starts to increase on its own.. SO DONT keep starting & stopping it, thinking, "it'll get better".. Good luck.
Yes, I'm with you 100%. NOT going to work tractor. Just peace of mind that the pump was not seized up.
Along with Pumpguy's comments, keep a piece of flat metal, or a big towel rag, that you can stop the air intake with, on the tractor. You will only have seconds, to shut it off, if it runs away...
Got It....Thanks.....
Got motivated Monday morning and said it's time to reseal the DB Roosa Master pump. Took the small timing window plate off and turned the engine till the two lines were lined up. Then checked the flywheel to see where it was at 5 degree BTDC. Removed the injector lines and fuel filters, shut off cable and throttle rod. I did have to make a bend in a 9/16 box in wrench and grind down the end some to reach the pump nuts. Then carefully removed the pump. Next was to clean the out side of the pump. I've been looking for some small plugs to seal up the ports on the pump to no avail (I call them shipping caps or plugs). I used tape then to seal off the ports. Sprayed it down with carburetor cleaner and small wire brushing. Got her clean and blown off, now ready for disassembly. I then made a fixture to hold the pump. After making two designs I said the second one will do (as pictured). I set up a clean table to lay out my parts in order during disassembly. Had enough for today and called it quits. On Tuesday Started the disassembly and thorough cleaning of each part. Carburetor cleaner cleaned off the 50 year old diesel film. Then blew off with compressed air. This process took a lot of time. Yes, the cam screw was tight but came out with no problem. I used the Syanadyne support bushing and the t-45 bit for the removal and assembly. All the parts was cleaned and laid out on clean table. Now to get going on assembly. Started changing out all O-rings one by one on small parts. I but a light smear of Vaseline to help with installation. Next started on the pump assembly. I had to really pay full attention how parts go. I wrote down on table the placement of parts. Referred to a manual with pictures during the process. If you put a part in up side down, you are screwed. The only mistake I made was installing the pump assembly into the pump housing. I pushed the pump in to far. The o-ring came out the three set bolt holes "damn". I cut the o-ring and pulled it out the hole the 12 point bolt goes into. The o-ring is a 038 if anyone does this goof. The rest went really smooth. The last thing I did was a coat of paint. Long and stressful day. Day three went well. Cleaned and put the two cup seals on the pump shaft. lubed them up with Vaseline. Taking care to not flip the cup seal with some finesse. It went on without a problem. Got the rest hooked up and she runs like a top. Thanks to all....
More pictures.....
Just wanted to say a special thanks to thepumpguysc for all your help.....
Wow, forgot I signed up here. I been looking for this a while. Anyone know what the part number is for the Bristol tool? I agree this hits the highlights. Just went thru the busted screw, we had been lucky and we fixed a couple of these pumps but I hadnt researched anything,,, my research is hit and miss anyway. I came apon it shopping for the tools.
Is this too old to bump?
Bump??? It autta b taken down..burned and then buried.. lol