Okay so I have the engine almost back together with just a few issues, mostly getting the cam gear back on was the most troublesome. I'm sure that others have experienced this as well on their first Cummins rebuild. Other than that it was pretty much the same as any other engine. I have the crank and cam timing set and now it is time for the injector pump, I have watched some vids on this and can handle the procedure without any problem. My issue at this point is, I am not sure if the timing is BTDC ort ATDC. The engine tag reads, ''Timing - TDC 17 Degrees'' Does the dash/hyphen mean BTDC? I am a little confused because I am used to seeing BTDC if it is before. I know probably everyone on the site knows the answer to this except me so I am asking this question at the risk of showing my ignorance about Cummins engines Thanks All, B-Crazy
That would be before top dead center. I think you'll find it runs quite poorly indeed if you retard the timing to 17 degrees after top dead center Why did you separate the cam gear from the cam? I've never had call to do that.
I've seen quite afew cam gears get replaced do to excessive back lash.. All ya gotta do is throw it on your propane grill for an hour & pick it up w/ welding gloves.. she'll slip right on..
I don't wanna get into a pizzin battle w/ anyone BUT.. The ENGINE will be at TDC & the PUMP will be at 17* Once u get all your gears on & dots lined up.. LOOK at the inj. pump timing pin hole, the one UNDER the pump.. With the engine at TDC, that hole in the cam gear should be in the window for the inj. pump timing pin.. What inj. pump do u have?? the Bosch VE or the CAV/Delphi.?? Either way, they should both be locked.. that's to say, the drive shafts on the pump should be locked.. IF you have a VE pump & the timing isn't locked & the gear isn't cut for a KEY.. STOP.. U don't wanna be doing this twice.. Get the pump timed & locked Just about every CAV I've run across has a key.. but u still have to know what LETTER to set it to.. if your flyin blind..
You should throw in a couple of 12 ounce sirloins too.
Not on THAT ONE.. u don't want the drippins' getting on the gear..lol We had another one for THAT..{seriously}
Thanks for your help Jacobd, I had to put a crank kit in it, so I had to pull all of the front end off, the can looked good so I didn't have to pull the cam.
Haha my mistake, I tried the grill thing (without the steak) but I only left it on for 30 minutes. So I didn't get it all the way on before it stopped moving. Hey I was 1/2 way there with it.
Hey Pumpguy, I have the Bosch pump. So if I am understanding you correctly, I will lock the cam gear with the pin that pushes in from the back cover and lock the pump with the pin where you remove the cap nut and flip the pin over and put it in place once I get the pump notch in the correct place. Once I have those in place I install the pump drive gear (aligning the mark) and then torque it down and this will be set at 17 degrees. The only reason the I would need to use a degree wheel or move the engine is if I want to add or subtract timing. Is this correct? If this correct it is much simpler than I thought. Thanks for the help
It sounds as if u have the Bosch in-line pump.. timing pin in the gov. hsg.. That procedure sounds like it will work..
Sounds good thanks for the help
I more little trick>> before u slip the PUMP drive gear on.. look inside the hole.. there is probably an indentation of where the key was previously.. That's to say, if your pump & gear ISNT keyed.
Hey that is a good idea, I wish I had checked back on this thread before I had it buttoned up. But now it is what it is, I hope setting it with the two pins and then locking down the injector drive gear is correct. I guess I will find out in another week or so when I have time to get back to it. It is supposed to be in the teens here some next week so I will take a break from it for a few days. If it is freezing weather when I get off work I am going to hold this recliner down so it does not get away. When it warms up again I will jump back on it. Thanks for the help guys.
Hey Guys, back again needing more help (looks like I am kind of like my adult children, I only hear from them when they need something ). So I have finally gotten back to the Case 90XT, I have the engine all mounted and hooked up (even those two !@#$%^& bolts at the bottom of the bellhousing ). It will crank over with the starter fine, I have run the starter enough the build a highway but it will not start. I have fuel to the injection pump but not a drop coming out of it . Are there any tricks, hacks, prayers that I can try before I remove the pump and start the disassembly? Hoping the PumpguySC will chime in too. Thanks All
Is your fuel shut off solenoid on the pump? Is it getting power?
Yes, when I turn the key on it does not move but as soon as I turn it to the starter position it opens all the way and stays in that position until the key is switched off. I assume that this is the normal operation.
It doesn't mean that the stroke on the solenoid is correct.. it could be holding THE LEVER still in the shut off position.. TAKE THE SOLENOID OFF..
Did u bleed the lines?? Starting one from scratch is a 2 man job.. 1 to turn the key & 1 to turn wrenches.. Leave the lines loose AT THE INJECTORS.. Loosen the RETURN line on the pump..{banjo bolt on the back side} NOW crank the engine till fuel squirts out the RETURN line & tighten.. BTW> there IS A DIFFERENCE in the banjo bolts.. The one w/ the check ball goes in the RETURN/Back.. The OPEN one goes in the INLET/Front.. Now that we KNOW u *** up..Lol.. Swap the bolts to the correct holes.. Once u get fuel to the return, tighten it up.. Now w/ the pedal all the way to the floor, crank till u get fuel out of the loosened lines AT THE INJECTORS & tighten.. Now off u go..
I'm glad you said that! I thought it was just me that had to do all that bleeding to light one of those buggers when they get a gulp of air.
Well with that being said I see that I did something right, I didn't swap the bolts around. I have fuel to the bleeder screw above the filter housing. I cracked the banjo bolt on the metal line feeding the inj pump I have fuel there so I tightened it back. I have the banjo cracked loose on the return line no fuel there I have the inj lines cracked loose at both ends, on top of pump, and at the injectors no fuel there However I realize that I will have any fuel at inj lines until I get it through the pump to the return line. Have I missed anything? Keep in mind the this engine sat partially disassembled for 2 or 3 years after the oil pump locked up and they cooked the crank on it. But just before the engine was running good injector pump and all. I am thinking about changing my site name from Bobcat Crazy to Case 90XT crazy because this thing is driving me. Well you know
Hey I should have said, I realize that I will NOT have any fuel at the inj lines until I have it at the return line on the pump. It is funny how one word changes things
If u have fuel to the inlet & nothing out.. Where is the fuel going.?? Its just a passage that the pumping plungers feed off of.. U have to be supplying at least 25 psi of fuel to the inlet.. Did someone stuff a cap plug in the inlet hole when the pump came off.?? {clear} Take both banjo bolts out & use shop air to see if it'll flow thru the pump.. IF it wont, u got something blocking the gallery.
That gives me some direction and something to work on. I will get back on that tomorrow after work, the pump could be full of dirt dobber nests as long as it was apart and I could have missed that. Thanks Guys for the help! Sooner or later I am going to get this thing fired up.
New update but still not running. I took the return bolt out, used the lift pump hand plunger, no fuel, ran starter, no fuel. I put a temp electric inline fuel pump on and finally got fuel out of the return banjo hole with trash. I ran a lot of fuel through pump in an effort to hopefully clear all trash from lines and pump, reassembled, still no fuel coming from fuel delivery valves on top of pump. I removed the 4 delivery valves, (yes I know that this is another no-no but it was no good like it was) (I watched several vids on Youtube and one guy said if you remove these valves you are screwed and it will never run when you reassemble) (Haha, so what, mine didn't run anyway) and found one part stuck tight in each (same part in each). I replaced valves and adjusted to where I have fuel coming from valves while turning engine with starter. If you are wondering I am an unusual person when it comes to working on machines that I am trying to resurrect for a few years dead and I am not afraid to try ''out of the box things'' sometimes I win and sometimes I lose, but I always try. I now have fuel to the injectors but still will not run on its own. Engine runs good when spraying WD40 and then just a touch of starter fluid now and then in the intake. It reaches a point where it seems that it wants to run on its own but it just has not done so to this point. Is there any way to know how to fine tune the adjustment on the fuel delivery valves for an injection pump rookie like me or is the only option to remove pump and send to diesel shop? Thanks All, Bobcat/Case Crazy
I would send pump away....everything i there is very finely set...my uncle andre has spent 100's of thousands to get his fuel and turbo shop set up....the clean room alone to work on the insides of a pump is cleaner than my kitchen at home.
Your screen name should be Bat **** Crazy..lol Talk about leaping before you look.. DAMMIT MAN.. Its not like there isn't anybody on this forum that wouldn't hold your hand while u *** up.. I'm ALWAYS around.. U shoulda emailed me first.. or at least "thought about" emailing me first.. Lol I think about 500 people on this board have my phone #.. u coulda pleaded insanity & one ofm woulda called me.. OK, enough of the scolding.. Whats the question.?? besides u don't know what the H your doing or talking about..Lol There are NO adjustments to a "delivery valve".. The DV sits under the DV Holder that u connect the steel lines to.. SO... U MUST BE talking about the "barrels".. that are held down by 2 nuts & washers.?? & THATS the equal delivery to each cylinder.. By moving them 1 way, u cut the delivery.. move it the other & it increases the delivery.. To figure out which way u gotta turn them for MAX delivery.. Put the steel line from/at the injector side of the line in a 2 liter bottle & spin the engine while u count to 20.. Check the delivery in the bottle.. NOW, & I shouldn't have to write this but I'm going to.. "empty the bottle" & move the barrels the other way & USING THE SAME COUNT.. spin the engine & check the fluid in the bottle.. That'll get ya in the ball park.. I would set them all to the max.. NOW.. what it the pressure of the electric pump your using.?? & if u say IDK.. I'm done w/ this thread.!! If ya gotta,.. LIE..
Hey hey PumpMan be easy on a rookie, I have been perfectly honest that I know nothing about injector pumps. You didn't just scold me I think that you cut me pretty deep. I hope that was a clean knife that you used. And to address the comment about my mental status, (being BS Crazy) even my Mother says that I am a little strange so if my Mother says it I guess that it has to be true. So you would not be the first to notice it. Lol If I were a professional diesel, injector pump, and electronics mechanic I doubt think that I would need to be on here asking questions of you Guys that know what many of the rest of us are trying to learn as we work on our own stuff, not to make a living at it as I am sure that many of you do with the awesome knowledge that you have. I don't have to lie about any of this stuff, just trying to see if I can figure it out with help from you Guys and I didn't realize that I could ask for a contact number to worry any of you Guys other that on here where anyone has the option to answer if they would like. The temporary electric fuel pump that I used to wash the trash out of the pump through the return banjo hole pumps seven pounds and is self regulated. I used this because I could not get fuel to the return line using the hand plunger on the lift pump or by using the starter even though the lift is brand new, and I think that it set me back $160 because I wanted to use good parts for the build. Once I put the temp pump in it didn't take long to get the trash out and get fuel flowing through the trough. I hope to get back on it tomorrow after work and try to figure out your instructions above. Though I think that your comments meant that I could not pour **** out of a boot if the instructions were on the heel. And as my knowledge relates to injector pumps that may be right ! But I hope that you understand that a lot of my comments are make in fun. And if I have offended you by being honest about my lack of knowledge and I-pumps I'm sorry that you feel that way about honesty ! Thanks for the help guys and the scolding, I'm a big boy and I can take it. B-Crazy
I think you got pumpguy wrong...most of us know not to mess with barrels on a fuel pump....that is the equivilant of taking your eyeball out with a rusty nail just to see if you need glasses...as am i sure most people on here cringed when they read your post....i give it ya though...you are ballsy
You mean that there is something wrong with taking an eyeball out with a rusty nail? Ok, ok I am only kidding! It is all in fun on my side. I just didn't know any better than to tinker with the barrels, and as I stated it wasn't any good the way that it was and below the barrels when I took them out I found some of the parts stuck and they were stuck so tight that they were never coming free on their own. The way I see it, the condition the pump was in I was going to have to remove it and send it to the shop anyway. So if I don't get it working I am in the same position as I was in the beginning. What is the worst that could happen? I could screw up something and have to buy a new pump. If that happens I was probably headed that way already. This one may have so much damage from sitting open out in the weather for 4 or 5 years before I bought the machine that it is not salvageable so I didn't feel that I had anything to lose by working on it other than some time and a little energy. I seems all my life I have learned things the hard way, I guess this is just another example. And I must like it that way as I keep doing it. When I was a child and I got a new toy I would play with it for a while put as soon as the new was off of it I would have to take it apart to see what made it work. I suppose that I am still the same, I just play with man size toys now. Again Thanks for the help Guys and no offense intended. B-Crazy
I WAS LMAO while I was writing those instructions.. I only with I was there to help.. U seem like the kinda guy I'd like to work with.. BEFORE U START>>Take the shut off solenoid OFF the machine.. so u can have HAND CONTROL over the shut down.. Push the throttle all the way WIDE OPEN & hold it.. now pull the shut off lever slowly .. can u feel the s/o pulling the insides{rack} back to shut off?? NOW let it go & do it again.. .. each time pull the THROTTLE BACK TO IDLE & SLAM IT TO FULL & HOLD IT while u slowly pull the sh/off lever back & try to feel the rack coming back.. The rack, IF ITS FREE, will return to FULL each time u slam the throttle forward.. & your FEELING IT w/ the shut off lever.. IF U CANT FEEL IT.. its probably stuck again.. DO THAT 1st.. no sense in moving the barrels around if the rack is stuck.. The supply pump HAS TO FEED A MINIMUM of 25 PSI to the pump inlet.. if not, there isn't ENOUGH FUEL for the individual pumps to pump.. Your "little pump" is not sufficient.. Does the back/return bolt have a checkball in it?? It SHOULD..
Forgive me for butting in here. But I am trying to follow this saga. The guy has a MW style pump, is that what we are talking about? At the beginning it might have been VE or CAV but then you decided it was inline? I don't have much understanding about those inline pumps, that is why I want to follow this.
Let me see if I can clear this question up, I am uploading a pic of the pump label. I guess I should have done this long ago. I may not even being identifying it correctly. Thanks Guys for trying to keep me straight on this. B-Crazy
Hey pumpguy I am posting a pic of the lift pump on this engine (not the temp electric pump that I used to was the pump out). This is the original type that was on the Cummins when I rebuilt it. I think that I am understanding you correctly that this pump should supply 25 lbs of pressure to the I-pump. But with all of the hand plunger pumping and turning the engine with the starter (if you recall I said that I have cranked it enough with the starter to build a highway if it were running ) I never got enough pressure or flow to get fuel to the return banjo. And I really don't feel any pressure building on the hand plunger. Am I missing something on this too? Thanks, B-Crazy
There is supposed to be a spacer that goes between the lift pump & the engine block (need to use 2 x gaskets) without the spacer the pump won't operate properly. Often the spacer is still attached to the old lift pump & gets missed......
HOLD ON.. I THOUGHT u had a P pump.. now I see u have a A pump.. DO NOT move the barrels.. actually u cant unless u take off the side cover.. IDK WTH your adjusting?? SOME models took a spacer.. call your local Cummins dealer & SUPPLY THEM W THE ENGINE SN. If u cant even get fuel thru the lift pump.. check that filter head that doesn't have a filter on it.... its got checkballs & **** in it.. I've seen those things so gunked up, they wont allow fuel to pass.. IF u use a supply pump that requires a spacer & u didn't put it on.. the rod gets smashed right thru the piston inside.. See if u can take the plunger rod out & look in the hole.. for a hole.. TRY operating it.. hold the body & push the plunger down on a table or floor.. a few times.. Does it sound like a RedHead having sex.?? Try putting your finger over 1 of the holes.. does it suck your finger like afore mentioned RedHead??
Thanks for jumping in I appreciate all and any help. I do have the spacer it was stuck to the block when I took the old pump off. Thank goodness the engine was not totally disassembled so I did get a few breaks like that one.
Okay Guys let me try to answer these questions and share a couple more pics that may make things a bit clearer. I realize now that as little as I know about I-pumps I should have started with pics. To address the lift pump, the funny thing is I have bought 3 of them because I didn't think the first 2 were pumping enough pressure. I am a slow learner but by the 3rd pump I decided that it was not that pump that was the problem. If you put your fingers over the holes on any of the 3 different pumps and press the plunger against something I can feel just a little sucking but certainly not like the Redhead that you mentioned (though I never had the pleasure of a redhead but I get the meaning). And seeing that I am at 38 years and counting with my brunette I had better stay away from the redhead and hope that my brunette does not read this post or it may be 38 years and done ! She may take offense to my using pleasure and redhead in the same sentence !!! Anywho unless I got 3 bad pumps in a row which is very unlikely the lift pump is not the issue. The spacer has been used with each of the lift pumps so I have not destroyed them , hey that is two things that I have done right. Let's not count the many thing that I may have done wrong yet, just let me feel good for a little while about 2 good things before I have to come back to reality ! 2. Getting fuel through the I-pump to the return banjo hole. I did get fuel through the I-pump to the banjo return hole by using the temp electric fuel pump that only pumps 7 lbs but not with any of the 3 lift pumps, so I still have not figured out why that is. 3. Checkballs in filter head. I will check on that tomorrow after work. 4. Barrels, I feel a little better knowing that I can not adjust the them without taking the side cover off because I have not removed any covers. 5. The 2 pics below. The first one (if I loaded them correctly) shows the top of the I-pump and I am pointing at the pieces that I removed and cleaned and unstuck the components below them. These pieces are what the injector lines attach to on the pump end. I was calling them fuel supply valves because in the YouTube vids that I watched they were calling them that name. I haven't a clue if that is what they are called or not . Hopefully the pic will make it clear to those of you who know I-pumps and diesel engines what parts I have been tinkering on. And Ionly hope that they are not the barrel afore mentioned. The second pic is of the fuel lift pump installed with the spacers in place. 6. The Redhead. On second thought I had better leave that one where it is!! Thanks again Guys! B-Crazy
Man o Man.. those pics are worth 1000 words.. I WISH everyone would do that.. The piece that the line screws on to is called the "Delivery Valve Holder" The piece that was stuck, under the DVH is called the "Delivery Valve".. THATS what u took apart & cleaned.. THATS NOT a problem as long as u tightened it up to the proper torque.. of 30-35 FT LBS.. I "think" we're getting to the point of, seeing if the rack is stuck?? I don't think u can remove the small cap on the FRONT of the inj. pump?? Its got 2 flats on it.. just the perfect size for either a 19mm{3/4} wrench or a 17mm.. IF U DO have room, unscrew that cap.. THAT will give u direct access to the inj. pump control rack.. IF u get the cap off, push the rack IN towards the pump.. it should spring back..{to Starting Fuel}.. IF IT DOESNT, the rack is either stuck or binding.. & you'll never get it started..
NOW on to the supply pump.. Rather than US GUESSING on your set-up.. snap a pic.. U might be able to disconnect the line going into the sp & run it straight into a 1 gal bottle of fuel.. I like to use an old antifreeze jug or oil jug.. NOW lets talk about the fuel PRESSURE.. That banjo bolt w/ the spring & ball in it HAS TO GO in the return side of the pump.. THAT BB{banjo bolt} holds the pressure in the fuel gallery so the pumping plungers have enough fuel to actually pump. IF u don't have enough pressure to lift the ball off its seat, there isn't enough fuel to pump.. THATS WHY U NEED the engines pump.. it keeps building pressure till the overflow valve "pops-off".. What "I" would do is.. Get a 5 gal jug of diesel fuel.. use the 7lb electric pump to feed the engines SP. from the jug.. and run the inj. pump return line back into the jug.. THAT WAY your recirculating your 5 gal of fuel.. We're almost there.. I can smell it..LOL..
Hi All, I finally got her going!!! It was the injection pump. When the shop got it disassembled parts of the inside were cracked where it had layed out in the weather, got water in it and froze. Once I had it rebuilt it didn't turn over a full turn before it cranked. I was surprised at how quickly it started. Thanks for all of the help and advice. It is running great! I do have an issue with the hydraulics working slow but I guess it is better to start a new thread for that. Thanks, B-Crazy
Hi All, I was on the site in the track loader forum and realized that I had not update this post and given a conclusion to it. Once I got her running good I was having issues with hydraulic system running slow and jumpy. I did ever thing I could to make sure I had not missed a simple issue causing this and I finally decided the main pumps were the issue. I finally decided to sale it as it was and invest my time in something else. I was able to sale it a reasonable price for the condition it was in, "great running machine, with rebuilt engine, all cylinders rebuilt, fully rebuilt injection pump by one of the best shops in our area" but still needing the hydro pumps rebuilt). The buyer came out and used the machine so he would know the issues it had bought it while he was here. He sent it straight to the Case dealer and the pumps rebuilt and any other small items that it needed taken care of. He and I talked after he got it back from the dealer and he was happy with the investment. He ended up with about $12-K in it with a rebuilt engine, rebuilt injection pumps, rebuilt cylinders, and rebuilt hydraulic pumps. This machine should give several years of great service. What did I learn? Do not buy a machine that has been disassembled and laying open in the weather for 2 or 3 years, even if I knew the hydraulics and injection pump were all good when the engine out. I knew it was a possibility that all of these components could be bad if I bought a machine with a bad engine that I didn't know anything about. But since I new this machine from the time it was bought new I thought the other components would be good. Thanks for all of the help and advice! This is one that I wish I had passed on! B-Crazy
Thanks so much for coming back with that update. Pumpguy and funwithfuel and others do so much to help and often nobody checks back.