We need an engine for a D8N ASAP. The D8N uses a 3406. I spoke with a Caterpillar partsman and he told me that the D8N engines are special and that other 3406 engines (or longblocks) won't work. Does anyone know what is different about the D8N 3406 versus a truck 3406 longblock or other industrial 3406 ? Does anyone know where we might get a good deal on a D8N 3406 engine ? Thanks
Hi Someguy Do you have a serial number?
Not for the engine. Not yet. It just failed. I'm not at the jobsite. The machine serial number starts with 9TC.
The D8Ns use either a 70V (early) or 11N (later) 3406C. Both these are cat's standard off-road use engines fitted in numerous machines, but they vary internally between applications. If you let me know your machine serial number, I can find your engine arrangement number and then see what other machines this arrangement was used in.
Thanks for your help. The machine serial number is 9TC 01434.
Hey Someguy Your engine number is (should be) 70V25173. Arr 4W9497. The block, head, camshaft, cylinder packs and crank are fairly common, but I think you may have a problem finding a used motor with the same combination of these as your engine. For example, a 92U truck engine with a 9N3800 arr has the correct crank and cylinder packs, but the block, cam and head are different part numbers. Although it may be that if you look deeper into it, the differences are minor and can be worked around. If you're on a tight budget, I would advise that you phone around the wreckers, get together some serial and arrangement numbers of what's available and post them on here. We'll then see what's compatible. You will still need to change the sump, FIP, manifolds, turbo, front and rear housings etc. If you're in a hurry, I think it would be quicker to rebuild your old motor, unless it's totally smoked. What's wrong with it? As they say, you can have it quick or cheap but not both.
Good morning, Cmark. Thanks for your replies. You seem to know more about this engine than our local Cat dealer does. I really appreciate the time you are giving this. I don't know how you figured that out, but those are the numbers on our engine. I got them overnight. Apparently the 3406C is built with either 19 or 24 bolts for the bellhousing. Apparently ours has 19. Ours is also aftercooled. Apparently the intercooled and aftercooled blocks are different. OK. The engine in a D8N is only rated at 285 HP or so. Truck engines generally have more power than that. I think the cam, head, etc from a truck engine would be OK if the block fit and if the power could be turned down to a level that was OK for the D8N. I don't think we can work around the 19 versus 24 bolts for the flywheel housing or the aftercooler requirement on the block. Correct me if I am wrong. I'm waiting for callbacks right now. I have been avoiding wreckers. We are looking for an engine with warranty. Thus far I have only looked into engines with the same arrangement number (4W9497). Can you suggest arrangement numbers for other engines that may fit ? The FIP is toast on our engine. The back end of it was smashed when the rod let go. We still don't know why it failed. When the Cat was brought to the shop, its clear that the fuel injector line to cylinder #3 or 4 had failed and there is a hole in the side of the block (from a rod from #3 or 4 cylinder ?) That is all I know right now. I think they will be pulling the engine today. I am hundreds of miles from the jobsite, thus my information is sketchy. I'll update you as I find out more today. Would you happen to know what the part number is for a block for our engine ? Can anyone comment on a good non Cat engine rebuilder ? Is it necessary to use all Cat parts if we rebuild this engine ? Hole in the side of the block. Thanks
I've just been informed that the powers that be want a complete replacement engine ASAP. It has to have turbo, fuel injection pump, water pump, etc. They want it to have warranty. No longblocks. No wrecker specials. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
I possibly found an engine... serial number 70V25688. Arrangement number 5R6706. Will it work ? Could it be made to work ? Thanks
Hi Someguy As you know, the members of this forum are fond of the saying, you can have it Good, Quick or Cheap Chose any two of the above. Sounds like your boss wants it good and quick. Solution. Have your Cat dealer build you a new motor. Won't be cheap though. If you want it good and cheap(er), I know a company in the UK who will build you one to spec and do a great job. They export all over the world. It won't be quick though. As for me knowing more than the dealer does, all this information is available to them. It just needs someone there to put in a little effort. I'm a bit busy at the moment. I'll look into to the 70V25173 for you later.
"I'm a bit busy at the moment. I'll look into to the 70V25173 for you later." Thanks
70V25173 is a PC (precombustion) engine, aftercooled, from a 621 scraper. Your engine is a later DI (direct injection) non-aftercooled. Crank and pistons are the same, but that's about it. Look for a 41Z out of a 375 excavator or a truck engine, 8PN or 3ZJ. All these have the same basic block group as your engine. If you can find one, we may be able to progress from there. The bare block is part number 4P3720. What I'm saying is, find an engine with one of the above prefixes and we'll see what else matches your motor. As I mentioned before, you'll still have to change a fair number of components. Unless you can find one from another D8, either 9TC or 1XJ
Hey if your spending the big bucks better get an engine that will meet the emissions requirement of the future, else you'll be looking for an engine again in a year or so.
Good point...
Many, many thanks for this. I'm expanding my search for the engines you list above.
You obviously have access to the systems that give you this info, but I have to say very well done , for both the info and time you are obviously putting in to this. :beerchug I find it facinating how any major part can have so many different arrangements of major components to make it suitable for a specific task. To me an engine is an engine is an engine :notworthy :cool2 There again I suppose to the uninformed a digger bucket is a digger bucket is a digger bucket.
Hey Rob, thanks for your kind words. With the 3406's, (before the E series) when you boil it down there's maybe only 3 different blocks, 2 cranks, 4 pistons and 3 heads, but when you combine these with the many choices of fuel pump internals, valves and springs, camshafts, injectors, turbos etc, you end up with hundreds of possible combinations. Not made, you understand, to make life difficult but to tailor each engine to its application with different RPMs, torque rises, etc. For this reason, it's not so difficult to build a specific Cat engine from scratch using secondhand parts and the right information, but finding one ready built can be next to impossible. In reality, Someguy could take pretty much any 3406 of the right vintage, drop it in the tractor and make it go backwards and forwards, but he obviously wants (and rightly so) the correct engine for his application. With a will-fit, at best the tractor won't perform as designed and at worst you will get chronic overheating problems. The reason why I don't mind so much doing this stuff is that Cat have documented their machines so well that with time and access to the information and a few years experience, it's not so hard to do. This is also the reason why, IMO, they are leaders in their field. No disrespect to (for example) Komatsu, but just try to get the same level of information from them.
I'm still digging for engines. I've found a 3406E from a D8R. How hard would it be to make it fit ? Apparently there is a kit (Cat part #3080 326) to put a C13 into a D8N. The 3406E should be similar ? Thanks
I think your best bet is to go to your Caterpillar dealer and ask them what its gona take to fit an engine that is going to be a top of the line emissions certified one. If your spending so much and want to keep using this machine with the up and comming madatory emissions regulations you should consider doing it now. Else its going to be useless as a machine to use on a job site.
You can repower your machine with a 3406E. You would need a 263-5497 conversion kit minus the 256-7539 engine. You would have to convert your donor engine to the 256-7539 spec. The 263-5497 comprises (briefly) new fan, fan drive, belt tensioner, decel pedal, hyd cooler, engine enclosure, radiator, various tubes and lines. This would take you to tier 2 emissions standard.
If you look to the left, you'll see that I'm from Canada. I'm not aware of any off road engine emission rules up here. I think we've got a replacement machine to finish the current job. I think we are going to find a new block and rebuild our current engine.
Its comming just wait.
I know you say its easy, when you have the experience and access to the info, but that is still some impressive info in my opinion. :notworthy :drinkup
I agree
Cmark: can you give me a quick compatibility comment on a 3ZJ 1169238 ? Thanks.
Hey Someguy 1169238 Isn't a valid arrangement number as far as I can see. Can you check this?
That is the second half of the engine serial number, not the arrangement number. ie 3ZJ1169238 I don't have an arrangement number for it. There might be 1 too many 1s at the start. It might be 3ZJ169238 I've got access to a Cat parts system now. They have 3 serial number divisions for 3ZJ engines. 3406B Truck Engine 3ZJ00001-16181 3406C Truck Engine 3ZJ16182-60112 3406C Truck Engine 3ZJ60113-UP Either way, this engine would be in the 3rd group. Thanks.
The srerial numbers have 5 digits in the suffix, so are we calling it 3ZJ16923 or 3ZJ69238?
I honestly can't say. It could be either. It took a week to get that much information on the engine. They were pretty sure it started with a 1, so it must be 3ZJ16923. They must have doubled up the 3 and the 8 ? Finding a replacement engine for this thing was a big headache. If this engine works, it will have turned out OK. Our engine is on the way to the engine builder that did this engine right now. They are saying that this engine won't be compatible at all with our engine. I agree with you and think it will be, after we change the flywheel housing, etc. Cat part numbers are very confusing, at least to me. I spent a lot of time looking at what it was going to take to put a 3406E into our machine. Cat lists the starter, alternator, radiator, fan drive, etc. The 3406E we were looking at didn't come with those components and we couldn't figure out if our components would fit or not, so we backed off. The radiator was the killer. Anyway... enough of my blabbing... Do you think the 3ZJ engine will work ? Thanks
If your powers that be want a fast and complete replacement, I'd recommend that you contact a couple of different Cat houses and ask for their pricing on the exact engine you need. Funny as it may seem, there are tons of things different on all Cat products from one to another, even on things that, to the naked eye, look identical. Worst of it is that some of the differences do not become apparent until right up to the last minute as you begin bolting on the last items and they don’t fit right. That's when you slap yourself and say, "why did I do this to myself?" Been there and done that. Your best bet for a fast and relatively easy job would be an complete exchange engine in the crate. That gives you a decent warranty and it is guaranteed to bolt up. But for an early serial number machine like yours, there may also be some good used take-out engines available. I don't know if those would be in your immediate area. You can look in Machinery Trader, Rock & Dirt, or My Little Salesman for those however. Your local Cat house can also help you look for a running take out, might even find one with a thirty day warranty. There may be some freight involved and it may take some time to arrive. Having your dealer do a complete rebuild with a new or exchange block is also a good option. Warranty is usually not so good. But, the engine will bolt up and operate correctly. Make sure they do a dyno test! A lot depends on the shape the tractor is in and how much longer you intend to keep it. That makes the cost of the engine replacement come into focus. As I mentioned, swapping engines of the same basic model sounds like it ought to be easy, but it's rare to find two alike unless they are in exactly the same serial and arrangement number range. Actually, the arrangement number is the more important of the two with Cat. I've done a couple that worked out OK, they were on smaller Deere Equipment. I tried it on a couple of International loaders with bad results. I looked at doing it with some Cat machines, and in fact worked on one 651 that had it's D346 swapped out for a 12V71 Detroit. That was very costly and it never worked very well. Even trying to swap a newer arrangement number component into an older arrangement tractor is often not feasible even though the tractor serial numbers are only off by one or two digits. Good luck in your quest!
Thanks for the advice, but it isn't quite that simple. The arrangement used in a D8N is kind of rare, at least as far as replacement engines go. We were able to find 1 engine of the correct arrangement in all of North America. They wanted about US$22K for it, plus our core. And it would have taken a week or so to complete and dyno. And the warranty was only so so. The thing that broke that deal was shipping. It was down in Texas and we are in Canada. We'd have to pay shipping both ways, plus getting two blocks over the border, etc. Well... it turns out that unless you hire someone and pay them some pretty big bucks to take care of it for you, it pays to do this yourself. It would be nice to just swing by a Cat dealer and pick up a replacement engine, but money doesn't grow on trees. It turned out that they got the job done without using this dozer, so it wasn't a huge rush anymore. Have you priced out a genuine Cat "crate" long block with turbo, fuel pump, water pump, oil cooler and oil pump lately ? Our engine didn't have a ton of hours on it and it failed. Rebuilders told us they see it quite frequently on the 3406C. The suspected culprit is that one of the pistons lost oil cooling and seized. Apparently there has been a change up on the newer blocks and the truck engines so that this doesn't happen. The rest of the dozer is in good shape. We want a good engine for it. We did not want a "take out". We looked at all these options. We are either going to use the 3ZJ engine or rebuild ours. Shop time at a Cat dealer is extremely expensive up here. $200/hour. We were going to get the 3406E dynoed and have the power checked. It needed to be turned down. They wanted $2,000 just to do that. Can you imagine what it would cost to have an entire engine rebuilt and dyno'd at those rates ? We found a good engine rebuilder. They are local and they have done lots of 3406s. We'll be working with them. Yes and no. Most of the time the arrangement numbers refer to the accessories hung on a standard block with a pretty standard cylinder and piston kit in them. Details like cams and stuff vary, but not as much as you'd think. What does vary is the fuel pump settings, injectors, bell housings, especially on industrial engines, front drives, etc. It seems like as long as you stay in the same engine family, ie 3406C with the same block, a lot can be made to work. With the 3ZJ, I think the block, pistons, cylinders, heads, crank, oil pump, etc. should be fine. I'm not sure about the front drive and the pan. We'll have to put on our intake and exhaust manifolds, fuel pump, flywheel housing and flywheel. No big deal, as long as it fits. With the 3406E, it was a different story. The bellhousing and such were fine. But according to Cat it needed a different starter, alternator, rad, fan drive, etc. We couldn't find those parts used and they were very expensive to buy new. The 3ZJ engine is in the middle of a complete rebuild. We got it at a decent price and if it works, we'll have a completely rebuilt engine for our dozer. I've done one engine swap and people in my family have done several, all with Cummins engines. They've worked out very well. I briefly considered putting an N14 or ISX into this dozer, but that is where it ended. Engine swaps take more fabrication than anything. I'll let you know how we make out so that we can all learn something from this. BTW: I am very disappointed that we had this issue at all. I think its unacceptable for a modern engine to fail like this. I could understand the engine had lots of hours on it and it needed a rebuild or something. But the piston seized and it threw a rod and busted the block. That is an entirely different story.
OK. This is looking pretty close. 3ZJ16923 would be a 4P1224 arrangement. Both this and your 70V25173. Arr 4W9497 have the same; 8N9267 cylinder block group 4W2436 cylinder head group 7W3798 camshaft group I would go with this and get yourself a Cat reman crank and cylinder packs. Your FIP would have to be rebuilt to your 4W9497 arr, which is 0T6736. And you would obviously have to reuse all the ancilliaries off your old engine. Good luck.
Yeah ! I'm not delusional. They were in the midst of rebuilding this engine and have already rebuilt the block, crank and cylinders. Our timing was perfect. The fuel pump was just rebuilt. All we need to do is get a replacement governor drive, which this shop says they already have. Yes... and they are taking the Jake brake off their engine... needed to swap out the rocker arms for that, but they are happy to do it. I'll keep you informed. You've been a tremendous help. Let me know if I can ever do something to return the favor.
Failure in modern engines is pretty common for a variety of reasons. Bad metallurgy, bad machine work, mistakes in parts and component assembly, bad fuel, coolant leaks, any number of things and they can happen any time. You eyeball stuff, take and analyze fluid samples, listen to operator complaints and comments, watch, smell, and listen to the machine work, and breakdowns still happen. This doesn’t take into account operator abuse or mishandling. Concerning engine blocks, as Cmark mentions, as long as the arrangement number is the same, you should be alright. What happens if they don’t, and I forgot to mention it before, is that if they are different, than sometimes the little casting bosses, studs, and threaded holes for mounting components and attachments are positioned wrong, or don’t exist. That’s why I did mention that sometimes you don’t notice the difference right up till you are bolting the last items on and find they don’t fit or there isn’t any place to put them. Then what? I also mentioned that cost depends on where you are and how badly one needs the machine. Caterpillar does not stock components in the quantities they used to in their depots. Their stocking arrangements always followed machine populations and in older times, they usually had to ship by truck. Now a lot travels by air freight. I know some about getting stuff across the Canadian border, I made several trips over it last year and if your paperwork thorough your broker wasn’t correct, you were going nowhere. Now a days, there are other considerations on components like engines where they have to meet emission standards in one country or the other. That one is getting pretty bad. Not long ago a cement plant near Bakersfield, California had the front axle assembly go bad in a very new 988G loader. Rebuilding it by the dealer a couple of times did not help, it kept breaking. The customer was getting mighty upset so there was only one thing to do, bring in a complete exchange axle assembly. Guess where it was? Singapore. Yep, cost a fortune to get it back to the states (air freight), but it solved the problem and the customer was at least mollified. Cat, of course, picked up most of the tab along with the dealer. Point is, while you can take time, if you have it, to search around for a while to find the cheapest cost part or component, that’s fine, but at the same time you are losing production from that down machine. If the unit that is busted is your prime mover, than there are likely other machines down too with more lost production. The project schedule becomes affected, and up where you are, the construction dirt season is mighty short. So you weigh all the alternatives and take your best shot, and spend the best money you have to get things moving again. There are good non-OEM engine builders, and some not so good. Some will use non-OEM parts if they want or if you allow it. Some folks get by on that, I’ve had not so good luck that way. Warranties are also sometimes a problem, read the fine print closely. Any way you look at it, owning and operating large heavy equipment is not for the faint hearted or those with a small wallet. I hope things work out for you.
I think you misread his post. The arrangement numbers on these two engines are very dissimilar. The dozer engine arrangement number is 4W9497. The 3ZJ engine has an arrangement number of 4P1224. The 3ZJ engine is an intercooled 425HP truck engine with a compressor mount, Jake brake and a regular flywheel and bellhousing. The dozer engine is non intercooled, non aftercooled 285HP industrial engine. It has a special flywheel that fits the torque converter and a special flywheel housing and a special fuel pump governor drive. It just so happens that the block, head, cam and piston and cylinder groups are the same between them. One engine can be turned into the other by swapping the parts that differ between the arrangement numbers.
PM him, get his bosses name and get that man a raise :notworthy That has to be the most understated comment I have read in a very long time Good luck and keep us informed :thumbsup
D8n engine rebuilt So I pulled the engine out of my D8n and turns out it spun the bearings so I was looking around for another motor but not really sure what options of 3406’s I’d be able to drop in and what it would all entail here is the arrengment numbers for the cat
Your engine is the same arrangement number as the OP's engine. All the information in this thread will apply to your situation.
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