Have 400psi compression in all cylinders, new injectors, working glow plugs, and fuel shutoff solenoid is disengaging as it should machine cranks and cranks with white unburn fuel smoke spewing out but will not start combustion.
more information please machine type model serial number recent history etc,etc,etc Mark
Bad fuel, out of time, weak airflow, it could be a number of things. As said above, need more info!
SOrry it is a Cat 3013NA or a Perkins 403D-15, 3 cylinder natural aspirated.. comp checked showed 400 in all three cylinders. has new fuel, new injectors, i'm getting feint spurts of fuel when i crack injector lines so its definitely getting some fuel. I know the previous owner used ether to get it to start. at the top of the governor cover there is some weird sticker that says "VOID VOID VOID VOID" When it does start it runs great, absolutely perfect... but then after an hour or so does the same crap, has to crank forever. I noticed the old injectors were leaking at the bodies which is why i replaced them. Please help
I would start at the fuel tank pickup sock, and work my way through the fuel system, checking each component, as you go. Sounds like it may have a cracked fuel line, sucking air, before the pump. If you google Perkins 403 d15, there is a downloadable service manual available. DO NOT USE ETHER on this motor!
Give me the pump #'s off the name plate.. in the meantime, loosen the fuel inlet line going into the back of the pump & crank the engine.. It should squirt fuel out of that line.. if not, you have a supply problem.. if it does squirt fuel, loosen ALL the lines AT THE INJECTORS, & spin the engine over.. wait for the fuel.. if no fuel squirts out AND your SURE you have fuel going IN.. the problem lies in the pump. Depending on the PUMP MODEL, there are a few things that could keep it from running.. that's why I NEED the P#'s..
So i have checked all fuel lines and installed a fuel priming bulb (check bulb) which keeps the feed (at the bleeder screw of the pump) packed with fuel. If you crack the bleeder it literally sprays out like crazy. how high a pressure should the fuel squirt out at? i'm seeing a wussy little drip plop out of the disconnected fuel injector line as i crank the motor. the CAT part number for my injection pump is 2526987 The pump i have is a zexel PFR 43000 (that number is on the casting). my next step was just to buy a new pump but i didnt think i needed to if i was getting SOME fuel to the engine cylinders. I linked a youtube video of whats happening
I work on these fairly regular but this has not happened to me. Nevertheless I think it is partially running out of fuel. Most of your description sounds like that. Maybe get a bucket and feed the injection pump banjo by gravity. Not 100% sure this will work but I think it will. Or feed it with an electric pump. If it is partially running out of fuel the plunger will have to come up in the barrel a long way before it pressurizes the injector enough to open and timing will be late but you will still get some fuel spurting. Also take the return line off the rear injector and see if the transfer pump is running good fuel back toward the tank. Clear line on there would be even better. Also boost up that battery, the last thing you need is a slow starter confusing the results.
I take back a little of the above, I see no return line from the IP inlet banjo on this one. But I take it you are sure you have good solid fuel to the pump inlet?
Yeah certain. When machine starts it runs great. Extremely hard to start though. Normally have to crank for for 30 minutes. Then it will start almost as if by accident.
I want to see what Pump Guy has to say but I say check pump timing by the spill method when it is not starting.
What checks have you done on the glow plugs?
In my experience the glow plugs are there for decoration, not normally needed but good thought. Maybe Cat did something different to where they need them on this model. That would line up with the symptoms. I have seen remarkably similar engines with different starting characteristics.
Do you see the small canister to the left of the injection pump?? 1 wire.. THATS the shut down solenoid.. remove it.. it either bolts into the block or screws.. NOW, hold the throttle wide open, and with the injector lines loose, crank the engine.. it should start squirting fuel, NOT dribbling. It sounds like the rack is stuck or the start spring is broken.. Once you remove the solenoid, you can look w/ a mirror or feel the control rack w/ a scribe.. Work the manual stop lever and it should move back & forth.. if not, either the rack is stuck or theres a broken start spring.. I thought you might have had a Delphi inj. pump.. they have "starting mechanisms" on the pump that will prevent them from running.. If it pumps w/ the solenoid removed, you found the problem.. no voltage or bad solenoid..
BTW> Thanks for the pictures.. it saved me ALOT of work..!!!!!
I would say check the electricals out, shutoff solenoid and glow plugs. Glow plug is hold key to left, for 10 sec max, then go for start. There is a big 50 amp fuse, in the fusebox, check that, too. The randomness of the no start condition lends well to an electrical prob...
Thanks ALL - THE GLOW PLUGS DO WORK, THEY TEST AT 12VDC AND THE FUEL S/O SOLENOID WORKS TOO I have functionally tested the solenoid (was one of the first things i've done) and have tried starting with the solenoid removed. My buddy fingered the fuel rack rod inside of the hole and it does push back out towards back of motor when depressed (so the spring does have tension). I wish there was a way to test injection pumps - what confuses me is that it runs so well . Normally this pump is $1400 from perkins, but CAT has one for $405 in Australia... i have been thinking about just buying it, but like the injectors - might be another unnecessary expense if i have engine or timing issues. If i have good compression it should start right? could the injectors be injecting on the exhaust stroke or something weird? or a injection pump gear shaft have a sheared keyway? i have no clue. I am worried that all the cranking will wash the cylinder walls and cause engine damage. As i have said, the engine runs great when it does start. The only thing that I can think about is that when I crank it with injector line off, barely any fuel comes out of the line or it dribbles. The injector feed banjo is packed with fuel and the prime bulb (directly upstream) is hard as a rock. Gravity feeding the injector pump wouldn't accomplish anything I don't think.
If you sheared a key in most cases it wouldn't run well, it only takes a few degrees off to do so. If your getting smoke at a good cranking speed from the starter motor then your getting fuel. Does this engine have actual glowplugs? Or is it a heatalator system on the intake manifold? If it's glowplugs, they have to draw 12 volts throughout the time they are engaged so try heating them longer, say 15-20 seconds. Make sure they have a constant 12 volt current to ALL of them. Also, the engine should be cranking pretty fast, so make sure your cranking speed is up where it needs to be. As long as a Diesel engine has good compression, fuel at the right time, and free airflow, it should run. Next time you have it started and running, check the crankcase vent and see how much pressure there is coming out. Even though you have 400 psi of compression, it just may not be building the heat for the fuel to compress and fire. Just some thoughts
So the video was at the last leg of the battery... i literally glowpluged (10sec) then cranked (30secs) at least eight to ten times until my jump pack and the machines battery started to die. Its getting fuel but could it not be enough? i put new air filters... should i try removing them? if its cranked that long you think it would be warm enough to not even need the plugs. i really hope its a fuel issue and not an engine issue, however i am uncertain about timing. but if it runs good, i still think it should start Guy at local diesel shop said I need to check my valve lashing and engine timing
Take an injector OUT, hook it back up to the line and crank the engine.. Does the injector fire?? DO NOT get your hands or any body part close to the spray.. JUST WATCH from a distance.. ANY pump shop can rebuild that pump.. they're VERY common.. & just because the GP's are getting voltage doesn't mean they're working.. take'm out and test individually..
To test the glow plugs, disconnect the wire and check them each with an ohm meter, should be a low number and close to each other, if you have a cheap multi meter it will basically be 0-1, but not open/infinite.
here we go again.. hahaha [delmer] If it fires the injector and your getting white smoke.. its either a cold compression or the timing is way out.. I find it awful strange that it WILL start sometimes & run good.. I've seen sheared keys on the pump camshafts before, I've seen bearings go/gone on pump camshafts before, but never one that would go back to the original spot and run good.. One more thing.. or 2 more.. is the inlet banjo bolt CLEAR?? If your just breaking it loose and haven't actually TAKEN IT OUT, do it.. I've seen things make it thru the line & end up in the bolt or the pump inlet itself.. Has the pump ever been removed??.. it looks like a new pump.. IF YOU HAVENT removed it and actually seen the condition of the pump camshaft, you might want to consider that also.. and check the end play of the pump cam also.. and check for stuck rollers on the bottom of the pump.. We're running out of things to check.. I might have missed it, but did you try to start it w/ the solenoid OUT.. not just checked BUT OUT?? You might be dropping voltage while cranking.. just remove it for diagnosis purposes..
Don't preheat longer than 10 seconds or you will blow the fuse. I take it you have replaced the fuel filter, and pumped up with the primer. I'll look through the manual, again. I have one of these little asv rc30's and it has been a good little workhorse. How many hours do you have on it? With mine it needed a pump rebuild, at about 2100 hrs, there was a big seepage leak under the 5 cornered bolts on the pump. Rebuild was about $100/hole, plus a little for parts. Easy, easy pump R&R, about a half hour, each way. Its a cartridge pump, metal gasket thickness is how you time it. Hardest part is the by feel installation of the rack lever.
Yeah, he tested the compression so I guess he's not afraid to take the glow plugs out. And maybe he did test them, but that's not what he said.
i did not test the glow plugs check resistance/ohms between what and what on the glow plugs? thepumpguysc: i did try and start it without the fuel solenoid installed - no go
It'll probably take you a few hrs to do all the checks I recommended, so I'll check back in then.. post the results.
still wanting to know where i should test the glow plugs - one probe at the 12v terminal and another on the tip of the heated end of the plug? I'm at work so I can't get these results till much later if not tomorrow
I test glow plugs with a DC clamp meter around the wire. If you do not have one or do not know what this means then skip this step. Just take out the glow plugs, [gently] vise grip or otherwise securely ground the hex part and apply 12v to the center stud. They draw a fair amount of current so no 10 cent alligator clips, have to use real wire. They should glow red hot shortly. If you want to do the ohm check it is also from the center stud to the outside body, should read a very low number, but the actual glow test removes all doubt.
No, do it with them still installed, that's the point. Check the ohms between the terminal and ground (engine block, or the hex part of the glow plug itself) The reading should be fairly close on all of them. Some glow plugs will burn out if left on, and the symptoms you have are easily explained by bad glowplugs, aside from Birken's view of this engine's startability without them. All other explanations get harder given the amount of smoke you're getting IMHO.
Thanks. You are all very helpful and i really really appreciate the input and level of response. I work far away from home and am always busy with kids so I hope to get some of this accomplished as soon as possible.
And don't take my word that this engine is startable without them because on further detail I can see some injection parts different than the Perkins branded ones I usually work on so it makes a lot of sense to have bad glow plugs.
My 3 cylinder Isuzu on my sawmill will not start without the glow plugs even a 85F, starts down too -5f with them.. Keep in mind some glow plugs heat up way faster than others, the originals on the Isuzu took 5 to 10 second, now that I've replaced them it can be up to 25 seconds when real cold. Steve
Very true Mt.Lake.. I worked on a "Universal Diesel" in a sailboat once.. The customer complaint was, it wouldn't start.. I checked EVERYTHING.. even going so far as to check the gp's w/ an volt/ohm meter.. I asked if he had the manual on the motor & as luck would have it, he did.. 2nd paragraph, after all the usual checks was, hold the glow plug button for 90 SECONDS!!! UNHEARD OF.. I held the button for 90 seconds, turned the key & she fired right up... EVER SINCE THEN, I PULL the gp's to SEE them activate.. that way, I can COUNT the activation time..[get red/white hot] I cant count the # of times I've seen the ohm meter test, bite someone on the ass..
I would really check out the glow plug function in this case, I think some machines came with a timer with the fast heat glow plugs and turned them off after 10 seconds or so, if the originals were replaced with the slower one and the machine turned them off after 10 seconds it won start. To test put a test light on the glow plug terminal have someone activate the glow plugs and see if they stay on or turn off after 10 seconds. If they stay on try running them for at least 20 seconds. Steve
Mmm. Omfg. All three glow plugs are bad
At least it is cheap and easy to fix. As for the necessary vs. unnecessary thing, a lot of these size engines are available in DI and PC versions. Usually a PC this size will not start without them (but not always). Usually a DI will depending on temperature. I don't know what this one is. I made this thread a while ago: HeavyEquipmentForums
WooHooooo! Do we have success!? Man, I need a drink now
Thank you all. Now I need a part number. Cat 3013na or Perkins 403d-15
Never mind. Found them on eBay for $14 each.
I counted 10 seconds till they got hot.. just keep that in mind when working the switch or listening to the relay.. IF it has a relay.. listen for the "click" off.. if it DOESNT click off in 10-15-20 seconds you stand a chance of burning up your new set.. Just something to watch out for.. good luck..
Glad to know the smattering of knowledge helped. If you ever need anything else, I'm sure all here will chime in...
Not to burst your bubble..IT STILL doesn't explain the dribble of fuel out of the pump tho.. I guess we'll see.. stranger things have happened.. BE SURE & post back after the new gp's are in.. Good luck..
Thanks... WIll let you know.. just trying to find quick shipping on these glow plugs.. FUnny you mention this... i have another ASV, an SR-80 with a perkins 804c-33T engine that smokes blueish color above 50% throttle if it's not the turbo, what could it be? no smoke on start and no smoke at idle.
Did you get those new glow plugs yet? Steve
I assume he got it started by now but I wanted to chime in here and say I just worked on one of these yesterday in the Perkins flavor. The glow plug wire is just dangling and has been since new 10,000 hours and 10 years ago. It is in an open shed and starts in the cold automatically and nobody has ever complained. It also has a continuous bleed from the IP banjo bolt to the injectors and supposed to be back to tank, but in this case they just teed it into the engine suction so no place for air to go if it ever got any...however it never does and has been running this way for years. However, if the Cat version will not start in the cold without glow plugs, I would guess it is prechamber/DI differences or some other injection difference.
3 pages & 47 posts & he never reported back.. nice.. real friggin nice..
Sure would be nice to know what happened, maybe he got sick or something. Steve
I see he was fixing hydraulic problems on another asv after last post. Need Help On ASV SR-80 - Hydraulic Gurus PLEASE HELP Discussion in 'Skid Steers' started by sepulchral, Mar 18, 2017.
Hello to all. I need help. I am having problems with my C1.5 engine (analog Perkins 3013). When I want to start the engine, it run ober maximum speed. I suspect the problem with injection pump. can somebody help me. I will be grateful for any information