I've gone round and round enough that I'm dizzy, so I'd like to seek some advice. I have probably close to a thousand hours seat time on tracks, mostly on my little JD 350. But I think I've forgotten more than I know. Anywho, I want a machine that doesn't exist (the size of a JD 350 and the power and weight of a 955 or 977...!). We have a couple hundred acres here in the Ozarks where we grow rocks and cedar trees better than anything else. Except maybe for iris's (the flowers, not the eye-parts). I have multiple projects that need doing or am planning--and I can't seem to settle on the right machine (dozer, track loader) or size (D4, D6?). Maybe y'all could offer some insight from your experience. The projects are (in order of importance, time-line) to build a road (and by that I mean a trail, not something pretty with ditches, but something I can drive my JD 5075 tractor down (and up) with a trailer); to clear about 10 acres of trees to convert to pasture for a variety of walking food; and to, eventually, build a pond (or two) and possibly repair/rebuild a couple that leak. The setting: the trail needs to go up and down several steep hills, at least one of which will need to be cut in. The ground is rocky in places--but those rocks are generally loose (if they are just half exposed (like an ice berg), won't they just roll under a dozer blade?). The road will avoid most larger trees (past the scrub there are fewer small trees and are mostly 24" to 36" diameter oaks), but some medium-sized oaks are not avoidable (though I can cut those and grind the stumps). My initial thought was that a dozer with a six-way would be best for this task, especially being able to side-cast material on cutting in on the slopes. But, I have doubts that a six-way would be up to the task, especially if I run into many rocks. I have some other finish grading to do around the house where a small six-way would be handy, but I can do that task with my 350 and tractors (albeit not as efficiently). Second task: clearing. The areas to be cleared consist mostly of cedar (all measurements are in diameters, 2" to 12"), hickory and oak (2" to 18"). I'll keep the larger trees (anything above about 14") (except for cedar, they ALL must go!), but there are maybe just two per acre of the larger trees. The average tree and size is about an 8" oak. They are mostly blackjack and if not, they fork (like a trident) 10' off the ground, so are generally useless except for firewood. In these photos the largest trees are about 8". The biggest problem and what has me most befuddled is that second photo--about half of the trees here are third-growth out of a cutting and so you have multiple trunks (usually 2-3 but sometimes 4-5) growing out of the same root-wad. The photo shows three trees (6"-8") all connected at the base. How do you get this out without breaking off the trunks???? Third task is to build a pond or three and maybe fix some leaky dams (might rent an excavator to help with that task). But this is low on the priority list. Might get high on the list if the wife wants it more than walking meat! So--first question, would it be more reasonable to get a six-way, do the trail, sell that and get a 4-in-1 to do the clearing? In my experience, I won't go back to a GP bucket! That 4-in-1 on the 555 was fun! But I do have a grapple on the tractor, just not as powerful. What do you think is the minimum machine to deal with clearing what I've described (give or take a little)? I'd prefer to go on the larger than barely useful size. I know I can do the trail-building with a TL and a 4-in-1, but that might not be the most efficient option, though would it deal with the rocks better? (we grow 'em good here!). The biggest question, though, are those pesky multiple-trunk trees. I really don't know how to approach them. If I treat them as one tree, then it would be a 14" diameter oak (on average), and a 555 has a terrible time with those (been there, done that, blew a hose, not going there again). I almost think a good, large (JD 850) straight blade (with tilt) dozer would be the do-all in this case, any thoughts there? Other limitations: Budget for a machine right now is about $15K, maybe higher for the right machine, but no more than $18K. I'd prefer less, of course, wouldn't we all? I don't mind older machines (as evidenced by my 350) and I have a top-notch mechanic friend who owes me some favors, so between us we can fix most anything (as long as the parts cost don't go through the roof). I'd be very appreciative of any advice y'all have. I've read just about every "which machine" thread here and on other forums, but I'm still befuddled. Maybe I'll just hock the place, find a D10R and level the hills.....!
Oh, and here's my JD 350. Got her about 7 years ago and had to rebuild both sets of steering clutches and do some other repairs (the poor thing had sat for too many years!). Added an electronic ignition with a high-energy coil and she starts right up and runs like a top, no smoke, uses no oil, and 12xx on the meter (it was 0960 when I bought it). I don't doubt those are original hours--I'm the third owner, the second didn't use it, and the first was the Department of Conservation. She's as old as me, and I know how I feel after a hard days work, so I go easy on the gal. She ain't purty, but the paint's original and I've never found new paint to make a machine run better! (usually it's the opposite!)
I would personally go for a D-4 or 6 at first, most of the trees you are looking at have shallow wide root systems in rocky soils. My Brother In Law has a place outside Salem MO, is similar where the clear cutting left the trees more brushlike. Neighbor had an OLD 1956 D6C natural aspirated with hydraulic blade, did fine in the stuff but was low on power and hard to keep functioning with worn out rails, broken something almost every week just decrepit when bought. A later unit would serve well initially then trade up to a larger TL but keep the 350 for later touch up work. Get the big stuff down and brush piled, brush hog the smaller stubbly sprouts, sew in some decent grasses to keep erosion low then use the track loader to do finish work. Check with Zimmerman in Versailles MO, he tends to have some oddities he has to bargain to sell. I am trying to justify a bigger machine for my little farm, have two ponds to set up, lots of Honey locust to push out, rows of old cedar in older fence rows where the wire is almost all gone save the stems sticking out of trunks, just need a heavier machine to drive a bit harder faster.
DMiller, do you take 68 or 19 down to Salem? Our place is about 2 miles off 68 aways north of Salem. I want advice since I'm not familiar enough with clearing with a dozer. Seems to me that I can wrench a larger tree out with a similarly powered loader since there's more leverage. Would a JD 555 loader clear better than a 550 dozer? I'm thinking a D4 would be a tad small.
I'm somewhat biased but I would recommend a 977L, something that size would give you the weight and power to get through those clumps of trees. It would also with a bit of luck fall within your budget. And yes its heavy, difficult to move and hard on fuel but so worth it when you have that 3306 screaming and plenty trees ahead of you.... Nothing quite like a 50,000# track loader for clearing trees Also great for pond digging! Happy wife happy life!
I'm Thinking along the same lines as RustedHeroes . A 977L would easily do your work but would be a little overkill in my opinion. How about getting a 977 or a 955 with a blade and a bucket. Kind of the same idea as a 4 in 1 only better (in my opinion) only because the 4 in 1's that I have been around did not seem to be built heavy enough for the machine they were on and were either sprung or had some sort of issue.
CavinJim, Spend some time on youtube, quite a few excellent videos on 955's and 977's in action. Might give you a good idea on what they are capable of and help you make a decision.
Where do you find a blade for a 955? I would go for that combo! Would be great fun on a 977.... Kicking myself nowadays--passed up on a 977 for $3k that was in great shape. Didn't need it then. It was sold for scrap.
RustedHeroes, I spend way to much time watching crawler videos on YouTube! Looked at anight International 250 last weekend. It had way too many issues so I passed on that. Would have been overkill, too.
Then I see things like this: http://semo.craigslist.org/hvo/5907354958.html I think that would do very nicely--but, take a close look at the chains. It looks like the bottom rollers are worn out and are riding on the pin bosses and the idler is at the end of travel on the frame. But maybe I'm being too picky? But I don't know the condition of the hydrostats on this machine (would have to check that carefully, of course).
Same here...
My only experience so far has been with Cat machines, I must say that I have been really surprised with the amount of support that's still out there for the older machines. My first love was an early 955K and all the parts I ever needed were still available through Cat and or aftermarket. In my humble opinion I would recommend you lean in the direction of a CAT branded unit just based on my experience with parts/support availability Here's a pic of my old 955K, very capable machine and I sometimes regret replacing it with the 977L when I get into tight quarters. P.S I checked out the specs on that International 250... What a sexy beast!! :jawdrop
Chains look to be in great shape, bottom rollers for this unit are probably fairly reasonable. Hydrostatic transmission would give me pause... However it would definitely fit the bill for what you're looking for
Nice, beefy 955K, RustedHeroes. I like that cage. Yes, the 250 is a beast, it would take a mighty tree to slow it down! If I found the right Cat, I'd certainly jump on it, but I've also been impressed at the parts availability for my old 350 deere and we have a dealer close by.
Well keep us posted on how your search goes! I would love to be in the market for more Iron..... Best of luck to you!
If you are on 68 then you know where Mike Smith lives, he has the old Fiat Allis equipment south of Salem on 19. He once in awhile has a Cat or Deere, the dozers he had were getting a bit old sitting while price wasn't moving. Had two FD14C units and an 11B last time I was by. Our old place is actually near Gladden, down old county road south and west of there, dead end and nothing but hills trees rocks. Over four years with my 180D and a 8 foot bush hog I managed to clear just over fourteen acres of the 168. Got tired of fighting City Hall with Sis in Law so quit going down there. She could not understand why I would spend time fuel and money down there if I was not trying to steal it from them. Bad choice of words towards me.
I know how that goes, DMiller. Makes you not want to do anything for friends or family. I used to ogle those crawlers on 19 back when I drove down to map caves along the Current and Jack's Fork, but now that I'm closer I don't get down there very often! Gladden area is a lot like here so you really know what a mess it can be.
I only have experience with 977's with blades. A lot of times guys take an old D7 straight blade and retrofit it or have it retrofitted to mount on a 977. I'm guessing a D5 straight blade or maybe an old D6 blade might be a good size for a 955.
I would be curious to see pictures if anyone has some of a blade setup on a 955 or 977. A blade and a winch are on my wishlist... Santa are you listening??
Have you considered renting a machine for a week and rough in your roads and clearing as needed. Just looking at my 2015 rental guide from Cat. The rates go down on longer terms but you can accomplish a lot in a week with these new modern machines so i'm showing weekly rates. D6N LGP @ $3,150, D6K2 LGP @ 2,190, 953D track loader @ 2,900, 963D track loader @ 3,540. These are all near new machines and will work hard and fast. $3,000 for a week and get it done without breakdowns and delays might be the cheapest way to go. Our local dealer will cut some slack on delivery charges if one is flexable about delivery time to work with there schedule. Just a thought comng from someone whom only recently bought his first machine new enough to not have a pony motor. Good Luck.
old-iron-habit: Yes, I have considered renting, but my time is more limited than my budget (at least right now). Since I'll be chipping many of the smaller trees and branches and cutting the larger ones for firewood or lumber (I also have a sawmill), I won't be clearing all at one time. Same for cutting in the road--a few hours here and there, maybe a full day on a weekend. With my luck, I'd get a dozer dropped off then find a water leak in the house! Yikes!!! Just as I finished writing that I saw one of our water lines drip! (I'm no joking--a "T" is leaking and I don't have a replacement on hand...sigh.) Anyhow, I've had pretty good luck buying, using, and selling equipment. That always comes with a risk, but I'm willing to take that risk.
All the negative posts I see regarding hydrostats on the JD 7xx and larger machines has me spooked--but I'm wondering if that's an overreaction? I'm not going to be pushing a machine, especially something like a 750 or 850. I doubt I'd use a dozer or loader longer than a few hours at a time, and certainly not stressing it at that. All of this work is for myself, and I find that the more I get in a hurry to do something, the worse it gets. Keep it simple, go easy, and it'll be better in the end (and probably finished sooner, too!). I'd rather do something right than fast. Of course, right AND fast is better, but I've had to fix far too many problems where someone got in a hurry and took a short-cut and, well, you know the stories. So there's another question: if I find a JD 7xx or 8xx with the hydro drives and it fits the bill and they appear to be in good shape (no leaks, drives straight, etc.), then what is the real likelihood that I'll burn them up in another 250 to 500 hours of easy use? I know that's not predictable (and if I could predict that I'd have enough lottery winnings to buy a NEW machine! ).
I think paying a Deere mechanic to check one out would be the wisest move. Oil samples and cutting the hydro filters apart would be a good idea too. I don't think people are trying to steer you away from them just making sure you know that if the hydro(s) go it is REALLY expensive to fix them.
Here are a few pics of a 977L that I used to have. IIRC it was a 10' blade which was actually a little small for that machine but it worked pretty good. I apologize for not having any close-up's of the back of the blade where it mounts to the loader arms.
Looks useful, but does it tilt? Guess you could rig the bucket cylinders to do a tilt....
you can see the tilt arms attached to the blade in the 3rd picture Thanks for posting the pics Bam, its surprising how much the blade makes that 977 look like a D7
There is no tilt. I missed not having tilt at first but it didn't take long and I didn't miss it at all. Personally, if I were to go back to a loader with a blade it would probably be a 963C just because they seem to be a lot 'lighter on there feet' than a 977.
If insistent on getting a big loader, is a 977L on machinery trader sitting in Jefferson City. http://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/9188711/1973-cat-977l Lister is in St.Louis May consider an offer as has been on listing for awhile.
That 977L is quite a bit out of my price range, I really need to stay below 15. My brother, a mechanic, is going to look at the 755 Deere and put it through it's paces. He's not a big iron mech, but knows his way around 'em. When I called him he was servicing an FL10B. He's tempted to see if the owner might want to sell that one. Thanks for the heads up, DMiller. I appreciate it! There's a nice looking FL10 on the southeast Kansas craigslist for 9k. Needs an exhaust gasket and track adjuster...
I got into several acres of second growth oaks a few years ago. It was bone dry also which didn't help. Everyone broke off right at the ground. I thought it might not work but the guy sprayed it the next summer when the next growth had started and killed everyone of them. I'm guessing you aren't going to work this ground up as rocky as it is so this might be a good option. As far as equipment I favor a loader over a dozer, the 955 k's and l's are tough old machines with a lot of power. I take the teeth and pop out the smaller trees one by one. In that rocky soil they should come out fairly easy.
Hi gwhammy, I think I know that summer of which you speak--I was out building a shed in July and it was hot and dry. We lost a lot of trees to that drought! We're in a dry spell right now, too, and my in-law's pond (they live around the corner from us) is the lowest it's been since it was built over 30 years ago. After a considerable amount of pondering over the issue, I've decided that my highest priority crawler work is to get the trails built--hopefully before spring fire season. I have 5 to 6 miles of trail to do, and I'll be avoiding larger trees so it's mostly just pushing aside scrub and a few side cuts here and there. So--that means my machine of choice is a smaller (70-100 HP) dozer with a six-way. I also need to regrade our yard. They goofed when they build the house 30 odd years ago and left the fill above the sill! The foundation tops out below ground level!! Fortunately, the house is stucco, but it still needs to daylight above g.l., so I'll need to relocate about 200 yards of fill to somewhere more appropriate. Of course, that means stripping, storing, and restoring the topsoil (what there is of it!).... a dozer with a six-way will help a great deal on that project. So the search turns more specifically to a dozer, and I'm going to crawl over to the dozer forum and seek some more specific make/model advice there.
So I've basically given up trying to find the "perfect machine" and settle for a small dozer with a 6-way, when a 955K with a 4-in-one shows up on Craigslist! The grousers look really good, but those tracks look awfully tight! I can't tell about the sprockets, they almost look pointy, makes me wonder if the tracks started slipping on the sprocket and they cranked the tension up to compensate. Asking price is $14, which seems reasonable. Can anyone tell if that's really a K version of a 955? tctractors? It looks like the decal on the left has been torn so is missing the "K", but it makes me wonder.... Looks like some cylinders/hoses aren't house-trained, but I'm not too worried about those. Not sure I can talk the missus into such an investment with house remodeling looming and some job uncertainty on my part (I work for a federal agency that does climate change research so you can imagine... ), but it would sure fit the bill for years to come!
It looks like a K in the picture. K's were not near as well liked as the L series. The K series had a reputation of throwing rods out thru the block on occasion. Not sure if that reputation was real or imagined but someone here will know. I think if the tracks were slipping the pointy ends would be rounded off. They sure look tight thou. Was it backed into its parking spot with the slack on the bottom.
Excellent point on the slack being on the bottom, old-iron! I'll bet that's exactly the case. I'm hoping to hear back from the seller so I can arrange a look-see before the weather here is more like yours!
CavinJim old iron is correct, let it roll forward a tad when you go to look at it any slack rolled to the bottom when backing in will move back up top where you can see it.
If you do buy it or really consider I would roll under and look at all the potential break points, truck cross frame, loader mounts etc. Not to scare but with full sweeps, a four in one, the bend in the grill I take this to either have been in logging or demolition. As soon as get it buy a coffee can for now then either a rain cap or side directed baloney tip exhaust.
At that price if it's in decent shape that ought to be about the bottom of the market price. Use it a few years and get almost all your money back out of it. It wouldn't take much custom work to pay for it.
One other something something I just saw in the top photo. Three buckets of hydraulic or transmission oil. Check for leaks, CLOSELY! If the machine is leaking and they know where is best to find out now to save finding a major expense later.
I agree gwhammy. A 955 or similar sized machine with a 4-in-1 is what I'd moist like, but I'm finding they are typically out of my price range. I've had good experiences, for the most part, with equipment I've bought, used, and sold. At least I haven't lost anything! Those buckets caught my eye, too, DMiller. It does have a couple cylinder leaks which are not a deal breaker, would definitely need to check for more leaks. Though I have at least 8 hydraulic fluid buckets in my machine shed and shop but haven't added any to my 350 in several years. It was the three tractors, jd 555, and backhoe that were thirsty! Unfortunately, I might be postponing a purchase for a bit. Priorities, you know.... Cold here this morning (1 below) but I'm sure many other HEF folks are much colder. Our power blinked off and on most of the night and finally went all out at 6:30 this morning. Came back on at 10:30 just before I went to get the backup heater.
My old equipment leaks some or alot from time to time. Lots of buckets setting around. It seems loaders and dozers of age have this problem no matter what color. I've went threw up to 10 gallons a day on jobs that can't be stopped. Yes it was cold this morning, had to go to Columbia to make sure the equipment and dump truck would start tomorrow after setting all weekend. Secondary roads hadn't been touched at all, solid ice. Poor mini excavator wouldn't go so I put a battery charger on it for the night hoping it will go in the morning. The old mechanical cummins in the dump truck fired right off with no help.
You got more of that slick stuff north of here (I'm about 15 miles south of I-44). The most reliable piece of equipment I have is the 50 year old JD 350. It'll start any time, but it is gas. The next best is the 1979 Yanmar 1500 two cylinder diesel. Worst is the three year old green tractor! The newer it is, the less reliable. Guess that means the best would be the Flintstone car! You know Fred would have been a HEF member!
Went and looked at that 955K today... and bought the dern thing, at a little less than asking. Apparently they only had a half-dozen calls on it and I was the only one to show up to look at it! They've owned the machine since the early '90s and it has been shedded for nigh on 20 years. They've only put a few hundred hours on it. It's been religiously started it every year and moved it around, worked the hydraulics and all, and have kept the batteries good (the current ones are about 3 years old). The good: This summer it had all the fluids changed, new filters, new radiator hoses, new fan belts, and so forth. The rubber drive bushing was changed out last year as well as the bull gear. Best of all: it has almost new SALT tracks (verified by the 4-link measure being 100%)! The bushings are almost perfect cylinders and the rollers are all in fine shape (not a leak and the wear looks minimal). The triple grousers look almost new, too, so I think the undercarriage was replaced shortly before they bought it. No missing or broken bolts on the cross frame and no visible cracks. It started right up after a minute of preheat (outside temp was around 40F). The engine has no visible leaks. The service meter shows 03960 hours (I reckon it's been replaced at some point, I can't imagine that it has less than 4000 total hours!!!). The tranny shifted crisply and smoothly from N through 3 forward and reverse (no real hesitation there, could go from F1 to R1 and there it was). Steering was smack on--from a fineness to spinning on one track forward and reverse each direction. It was actually a real pleasure to operate. Even the return-to-dig and auto-dump-and-spread circuits work as they should. Even the rock-guards and track adjuster covers are complete and in-place! The mediocre: all of the hydro cylinders leak, and I expect that's mainly due to sitting. Those are a relatively easy fix. The sellers said it had been overheating so they cleaned the oil cooler (had been fairly well clogged) and cleaned the radiator. After spending two hours with them and considering that the main operator was very concerned that the fuel pressure was at the low end of the green on the gauge, I'm certain he didn't let it overheat. He even changed fuel filters (twice) and blew out the lines to try improving the pressure. If it drops too much I'll address it, but I don't see it as an issue. Same with any over-heating issue, though I think they solved that one with cleaning the oil-cooler. The bad: The only thing that gave me pause is the left final drive leaks at the oil pan gasket. The worst case is that the axle seal is leaking (I haven't looked at the parts breakdown yet to be sure of the right names, but that's what it should be). Considering that everything else seemed to be in good condition, I decided not to let that leak be a determining factor (hmm, might regret that decision at some point, but I can't imagine that it would be unfixable!). So, maybe I'll have to start a new thread on this adventure when I have the machine at hand in a week or two. I know I'll have a lot of questions for the good folks on HEF!
Awesome, is good to hear someone found a bargain that really is one!! My luck is just the opposite, only bargain I can find is the ones I offer others.
I would not be concerned about the fuel pressure being in the low green. Was that at idle or high idle? Them gauges often show a bit different from one to another. Look at where it runs with a new filter and accept that as good. Sounds like you got a decent machine. Good luck and keep us posted.
Ask me a year from now if it was a bargain! I don't know about you, but I always do my fair share of second guessing after a purchase and before getting to run the machine for a week or two. Old-iron, the fuel pressure is at the low end of the green at full throttle. It drops into the yellow at idle. I figure I might have to do something with the fuel pump and hopefully that won't run up too many $$. If the fuel filters were that clogged I wouldn't be surprised if the injectors need some TLC as well.
I ran a service (grease) truck for seven years and encountered hundreds of pieces of Cat equipment that had the fuel pressure in the very low side of the green. Even after changing filters and cleaning the pre-filter. Those machines had no indication of reduced power or performance. Never did we take one out of production to try and get that stupid gauge reading higher.
A little late but, here is a 977L. www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/20112259/1977-cat-977l