Been a long while since posting but here goes with my dilemma: I have an older Mack tractor set up for pulling a mechanical folding neck trailer which it performed very well at in the past. I sold the trailer over 35 years ago but kept the truck. The 100K "Tulsa" winch and tail roller are still functional, but the cable should be replaced from age. The tractor has mostly been kept inside so in pretty good condition yet. I have recently purchased a 2006 XL mechanical detach neck trailer to keep it from being repossessed. This trailer includes a newer 3rd flip axle. I've not seen it personally, and a friend whom knows a bit about this type trailer acted as stand in for me brokering the sale. The trouble is, I don't have an air ride tractor and need to pick it up about 950 miles distant. I'm reasonably certain I could get it attached and pulled home, (it is road worthy) but I don't know how one would work to remove the neck without air ride. I've looked all over youtube and see several videos, but all have air ride tractors. Anybody ever ran across this type situation in the past and how to overcome? I have an older, (1979) Neway ARD-244 air ride suspension from a Mack tractor, but really don't want to swap it on the current tractor. Thanks for any help.
I hope others with more knowledge can chime in here, but the trailers I have been around with removable necks had hydraulic systems either self contained or worked off wet line on the tractor. They could use the hydraulics to attach and detach the neck and also lift the trailer so one could block up the front of trailer to slide the fifth wheel in or out of the neck of trailer. By "mechanical detach neck trailer" does this mean there is no hydraulics and it depends on having a truck with air ride system to raise and lower?
No hydraulics needed. Here is a link for a video of a different brand trailer but similar in operation. The "XL" trailer does not have the fold down frame for supporting the neck on the tractor but rather you use timbers to support it:
Problem is the OP stated he does not have air ride tractor.
Mechanical detach are the norm out here and some of them have to be older than the days air ride was common.
Mechanical detach are fairly common here too as they weight considerably less and the well is longer, (usually) than the powered type necks. I've not seen a spring ride tractor pulling one of these however, only air ride.
I have struggled with some of those and spring ride. With the correct 5th wheel height it is not terrible, just bad. One required having angle cut 4X4,s to back the tractor on. Then block up under the front of the trailer and pull out from under it. Then it could be backed into for hook up, no 4X4,s. Latch and back it off the blocks. If it is to low to get under you may have to do some jacking or get something else to pick it up.
I'm not 100% sure about this but could you do it if you had some of those steel ramps (for lack of a better word) that are mounted behind your 5th wheel plate on your frame rails. The extra long ones that extend back past the end of your frame? Just a thought.
The rolling tailboard will have to go, and you'll need ramps like bam1968 posted. The heavier the load, the more gradual / curved you would want the ramps to be. You may be able to add the ramps and keep the tailboard, depending how the tailboard is made, maybe angled ramps before and after the tailboard? I've never owned a mechanical, just helped hook and unhook them after unloading guys trucks.
Yes, lowboy ramps they call them here. Required equipment for actually using the lowboy, not required for moving it if you can get it attached some other way. See the last picture, spring ride and ramps. The drivers really back up quick and hit the lowboy hard if they have a good load on. But no Honda engine to not start, no wet kit required, no extra weight of any kind on truck or trailer. Just simple stuff.
Last photo is kind of what I was thinking and may be able to modify/extend or change what I have existing:
The only problem is, up here in the North country where we get ice and snow, you either can't get out from under the dam things, or get back under after loading.
I don't think getting under the trailer will be much of a problem but supporting the neck for detachment is what this issue seems to be. Seemingly, I would need to release the 5th wheel and pull forward to allow the trailer deck to set on the ground which relieves pressure on the retainers for their removal. I would then fit my timber across the rear of the truck frame, back under the neck latching the 5th wheel, and then pull forward with the neck residing upon the timber as it frees from the trailer. I'm thinking the sizing of the timber will need to be trial and error for the correct size as if too tall I wouldn't be able to reattach the trailer as the pins won't align, and too low digging into the loading area. Might be easier to rig up some type of adjustable flip down leg too depending upon the layout of the neck construction. The trailer has a large bale welded to the front and they used to pick it up with a chain and excavator. I assume this could be used to help get under it if need be too with the winch.
I don't know if the ice and snow is any different in ND but I do know they use them in the rocky mountain states as well.
You shouldn't need a timber if you have a sliding 5th wheel, you can back your tractor up so the neck is resting on the ramps and lock the slider before you pull away. I've pulled a few mechanicals and a long slider is your friend. I kept mine well lubed with dish soap. It's slippery and when it gets gritty you just hose it off and start over. The bail and winch would be handy if the ground is slippery or the load is heavy. More than once I backed a heavy load as far back on the trailer as I could to get the tractor back under the trailer.
The 5th wheel is fixed meaning no slider. I may change it however as it is high mount and the truck is on tall 11RX24.5 rubber. The trailer has 235RX17.5 rubber and may not run level when hitched. I think I have a usable slider on another truck but don't know anything about it operationally.
I knew a guy who had a Cozad in Alaska and that was his SOP, to move like a D8K all the way back so he could get under it with out beating the tractor to death.
Finally got that large windows update on the computer finished. Took many hours for it to conclude. Now have photos back. Here is my current 5th wheel mounting: I took the risers, roller, and rear fenders off the truck earlier to start to cosmetically refurbish to make it look a bit better. Here it is attached to another of my former trailers: I had trouble from time to time backing under the folding neck trailer with a good load on so installed a "Detroit Locker" differential in the rear rear to eliminate wheel slippage. It works well but can be a bit brutal bobtail. I installed new "peanuts" and cam into the automatic power divider to keep the drives in sync too so overall it gets under trailers pretty well anymore.
Heck, I forgot about your winch. Couldn't you rig up something using your winch to regulate the height of your gooseneck?
I wouldn't worry about the tall 5th wheel and tall rubber. Extra ground height on the front of the trailer when loaded is never a bad thing. You could make a attachment point for your winch behind the 5th wheel (about where the neck turns down) and a "riser" with a guide, above the trailer neck for it, and use it to bring the bottom of the neck up and let it down for reattachment.
It’s quite simple. To use an often overused quote.....” I’ve backed more miles under a trailer than some guys have pulled them forward” lol. Fixed 5th wheel is fine. Roller has to go because kingpin will hit on the way up as well as it will make the profile of your ramps so tall the neck with catch them in certain angles. Block goes under the neck after you have backed under it but before pulling away. Heel of the neck is still on the trailer so you’ll want it to slip in there with a little slack. As you pull forward the heel slides down the beam of the trailer and it’ll rest on the block. If you want the ramps to work as efficient as possible the roller needs to go or be relocated and the frame has to be cut to allow a nice gradual angle as well as getting them nice and low since you can’t dump. If they’re made right you don’t have to back under it hard. Get the trailer up and broke over on the flat part and then go easy until it latches in the 5th wheel. You could rig the trailer up to be pulled on with the winch like oilfield style but the kingpin probably isn’t removable so that’s one obstacle. I will have to do some digging but I think I have a template for the ramps I used to build. They are similar to Cozad which in my opinion are the best ramps out there. Several things to take notice of.....removable tails in case you have swing clearance issues or need to slide forward to get the weight up on the steer or pusher (not an issue for you) Keep them above the tires but not so high the neck will catch them in a turn, also you want them close to the profile of the tire but need a bit of height to keep rollers or crossmembers off the tires This set actually had a part that slid with the 5th wheel. I even had spacers so I could leave it forward and unhook without sliding the 5th wheel loaded. Those trucks had a 60” slide.
You can't see it in the photo with the hydraulic tail trailer but I had installed a nose roller on the upper deck that was almost flush with the deck. This allowed me to drag broken down equipment up the tail and into the well without destroying either the trailer or winch cable. There was also a 12K winch buried in the neck riser that I never used which was hydraulic driven and the motor was gone. 12K was a bit light for the requirements. Not against the riser idea at all and I'm certain the winch is mounted high enough on the tractor to clear the upper deck of the trailer. I'd wager something such as a simple roller at the horizontal to vertical transition of the neck allowing the cable to attach to the existing lifting bail would work well to adjust the height. This would require some kind of guide or restraint to resist the neck from wanting to pull off to one side during the operation. Chaining to the neck and tail guard would suffice for this if needed. Having not seen the trailer I really don't know how the fabrication is done in the neck so kind of guessing upon a plan at this time. The winch is currently mechanical, (PTO) driven but I have near everything to convert to remote hydraulic drive which would make fine positioning much easier.
Thanks for responding with the photos. Yous analogy sounds a lot like my thinking is. I was debating upon relocating the roller or doing away with it altogether but was undecided. Don't think I'll ever pull another mechanical folder so kind of unneeded for the purpose. I think I have enough room to extend the current risers another foot or so to protrude rearward of the frame a few inches. The idea certainly seems plausible. The king pin in the trailer I'm told is retractable? I don't know how this works and haven't seen one in person but that is what I'm told? I think the tail roller could be relocated between the risers and set a bit low for clearance. I use that winch quite a bit yet for dragging things out and about but it's always a straight line pull. Certainly are some good ideas floating here and a lot to digest. Really appreciate the help here guys. I'll be sure to update the thread as I progress.
The "retractable" kingpin just drops down through a heavy wall tube. Once it locks into the 5th wheel it's not going any where.
I asked for a few photos to post and here are a few of this trailer which needs the deck and some of the xmembers in the neck portion replaced. I'm told the 5th wheel plate needs replaced also. I've done a few of those in the past so don't reckon it will be much of a problem once opened up. Tires, drums and brakes are about two years old with limited usage as the prior owner had to quit running after falling on hard times: I had asked for a photo of the neck hanging detached from the trailer but he forgot to snap a photo of it. I'm told the tractor in the photos is air ride suspension.
Few more:
How much you want for the flip-axle?
I actually want to keep the flip as I anticipate a need. I'll get the one of the fixed axles to lift to save tire wear too. Thanks,
Other than paint it doesn’t look too bad. Whoever spec’d it did ok. 17.5’s, key slots in the top flange and double donuts are some handy things to have. You may know this....keep those little brakes greased up good. They’re the most temperamental drum brake I’ve ever dealt with!!
I see stake pockets all down the sides, but I guess I can't see the key slots in the top flange? What's a double donut?
Thanks kindly. This is a new adventure for me. I'm assured the trailer is sound but does need xmembers in the neck and the 5th wheel plate replaced from being thin. The balance of the trailer was looked over pretty good with the neck off and the deck resting upon it: All wiring is new and lights are LED units in a weather sealed harness. My other trailer has 15" tires with the 12.25" brakes but it's old enough to not have spring brakes, (1973) and you are very correct about keeping everything greased. Don't know how many times I've taken off with that trailer dragging a brake. I wound up rebuilding the trailer brake system complete because of that. This trailer has new drums, shoes, hardware, auto slacks, cams, and bushings. I understand he lost a wheel seal destroying an axle end and having a mobile repair service install a new stub. This has been several years ago so must be a sound repair. All of the fold out arms for the overwidth loads are in the center tool box of the floor. I'm told they are all there.
After closer inspection what I thought were slots are stake pockets. The double donuts are the paddles on the neck that slip over the pins on the deck. There’s a longer center to center on one to get a little lower deck height.
Thank goodness, its been hot today and yesterday, so I was worried I was missing something. Are these all separate pieces with just two holes, or are they a single piece with three holes that you flip each way?
Two holes on the bottom are your choices. Top is captive by a plate welded to the pin.
Would like to have had this trailer but a bit heavy for what I needed: Trailer was not mine but one brought to the shop for repairs. Wanted to give it a little workout prior to going back into service so loaded up my old "Yard Dog" and went for a spin.
I did not purchase this trailer as it is MUCH worse underneath that was either known, or worth working with. It had spent it's entire working career in the northeast part of the USA and Canada and was totally eaten up by rust in the main beams under the decking. The front rear axle had actually broken free from it's mountings but you couldn't tell till laying on your back looking at it from the side. As it still pulled straight the owner was going to run it through a "Richie Bros." auction to be rid of it.
So just for discussion, I watched a truck guy shorten a frame on a long chassis truck by removing the structural members and then cleaning it all up, changed over to air ride tandems as well. Whole set of drives from a junk yard with the frame attached, used the existing frame as a drill template and had all the air ride bits bolted up in an afternoon. Made it sound like there are truck wrecking yards full of suspension/axle sets just stacked in a pile.
There's all kinds of cut off's out there. They aren't free, but not horribly expensive either if you want something different than what you have. Last full cut off I bought was $2,500. It mostly depends how much work you can do yourself, vs. if you have to pay a shop to do it. Stretch or shorten frame rails. Dump truck guys by me pull air ride out of over the road trucks, to go to spring ride. There are other guys going the other direction, pulling old spring ride set ups from old working trucks, and putting newer style air ride in them, to ride smoother on the way to the truck show. Invariably, whatever you have, is not what you need, and you can't ever find the guy going the other direction, so you can just swap components with him. This is why I have a set of 3.55 Rockwell gears on a pallet in my shop.
He purchased what is known as an "air ride cutoff" from a truck salvage yard. It is entirely possible to do the swap in an afternoon if the installer is proficient, experienced, and has the correct parts to do the swap quickly. I've long lost count how many I've done over the years. In the case of Mack, many frame widths were 33.5" outside to outside. If a 1/4" rail thickness on the donor such as many Peterbilt trucks used and their rail width is 34", (pretty standard) the donor stubs, (Peterbilt in this case) will slip right over the Mack, (again in this case) rails for a perfect pattern. With the support members, (cross members) removed it is pretty unencumbered to drill holes through the Mack rails using the Peterbilt rail holes at templates. Of course you would need to measure and adjust frame rails to what you want your final wheel base to be. Weld the frames both inside and outside of the splice and add supporting structure to ensure a safe and strong modification and all should be good.