John Deere’s new G-Series motor graders offer the industry’s first choice of traditional console-mounted controls or armrest-mounted fingertip electronic controls, in addition to features such as cross-slope control, automatic differential lock and a rearview camera with radar object detection. Fingertip electronic joystick controls on the Grade Pro models mimic the industry-standard layout of motorgrader levers, with the addition of joystick steering on the moldboard side-shift lever in the center of the left console. But buyers of GP models still can use the steering wheel as conditions demand (all G-Series Deere graders have a steering wheel). Grade Pro units are grade-control ready, and can accept Trimble or Topcon systems (Leica soon). Six G-Series models, ranging from 185 to 275 net horsepower (41,000 to 45,000 lbs operating weight) offer a choice of front- or mid-mount scarifier, or a rear ripper/scarifier. The graders are powered by Deere PowerTech Plus 9-liter, Tier-3 engines with variable horsepower. They’re coupled to Deere transmission managed by Event-Based Shifting software. Rear axles feature automatic differential lock that engages on the roll. Three of the six new G-Series models – the 672G, 772G and 872G – have six-wheel drive with a precision mode for ultra-low-speed operations. All G-Series graders also have keyless start with multiple security codes, enabling owners to control who has access to the grader. JD Link Ultimate is also standard equipment. Video: Deere Product Consultant Mo Nesbitt explains to Construction Equipment how the controls work.
I like that (according to him) the controls have the same throw as the standard controls. That would definatly make the transition easier.
I thought this video of Deere demonstrating the affect of all-wheel drive was kind of interesting, too. Doesn't show as much on the flat because of YouTube's low resolution, but you can really see the change on the bank.
Wow! great videos! What a difference the all wheel drive makes. I really like the looks of the controls to. Transition would be easier compared to joysticks. Also to me it would be a good feeling knowing that steering wheel was there if needed. Thanks for sharing all of this!
Wow. That new JD Grader looks like it could be a good challenge for the M series CAT. I have heard that CAT motor graders are untouchable in the market but i like the concept of the controls in this new JD. They would seem easier to transition into. I also like the fact that they have a lever on the armrest to steer them and they also have a steering wheel. I dont have much seat time on a motor grader but i would really like to try both the M series Cat and this new JD to compare them.
The folks at Deere are very excited about these units. I personally think Deere has hit a home run with this Grader. They Have already significantly close the gap in Caterpillars maket share dominance and with the cool reception joysicks have been getting by some they feel they can continue that trend, But lets face it some people will continue to run Cat no matter what type of controls they have, you could have drummetts for control levers and people would still buy them.
I think Deere is pushing these pretty hard too. My dealer called yesterday saying he had one with standard controls on the lot. Expecting the new control version model next week. He asked if I wanted to Demo it and of course my answer was yes. So I'm hoping that happens. I'll take plenty of pics and videos. His only comment was that he didn't want a Cat Rep to have access to it.
The hit on the Deere graders was never operator comfort or the controls. It's keeping the blade tight and the center joint from getting so loose the seat back knocks your false teeth out. It is a nice looking unit and I'm looking forward to seeing one in the field.
cool vids, cool lookin machine, looks very operater freindly.Long way from pony startin, knuckle bustin 16. Would like to try one out before I pull the plug. 4 seasons [not the singing group] to go.:drinkup
I agree. Deere has focused on operator comfort with each model change. They have carried that from their AG line. I also agree concerning the blade and center pivot. In our D model they still use bronze inserts for the blade to slide on. I didn't think to add the "extended life" version when we ordered our machine and at 400 hours replaced the first set. I replaced with the extended version but can't tell yet how much longer they will last. The G model claims to have a larger and longer life center pivot system now so hopefully they've addressed that as well.
In all seriousness, Cat has had numerous issues with the joystick steering going Bat ****" in cold weather. I have photos of an M-Series grader that drove off the side of a bridge when a town employee doing routine snow removal lost steering, and therefore, control of the machine. It's not very comforting for some without having that steering wheel there... Cat's "fix" for the cold weather issue is to use their synthetic "arctic oil" which runs about $50/gallon. Go figure! Regards, Tony
You mean this thread? . Do you know for a fact what happened or are you adding more rumor and speculation to what has already been said in that thread? I searched all 3 pages for a post by you but didn't find anything. While we're at it, I heard that a while mongoose was sleeping in the cab and went nuts when he turned on the radio, it then jumped on the joystick and drove him off the road. I'd be interested in if that steering wheel is connected to the tires by anything more than wires anyway. Especially if they give you if an option of using the wheel OR the joystick, I highly doubt the wheel is anything but a pot connected to the wiring harness. Psychologically it may 'feel' safer but technologically it's not any different than Cat's system.
Nesbitt (the Deere grader product manager) says the steering wheel eliminated the need for "triple redundancy" in the joystick steering system. I don't know this for sure, but I think that implies that the steering wheel is a mechanical/hydraulic link to the steering system, rather than another electronic input. L
Interesting I found it very interesting that Mr. Nesbitt even refers to the Caterpillar G/H Series controls as Industry Standard. He states in the video “Everything is the same as it has always been, Industry Standard Pattern, been around for years”! That’s only true if you’ve been on a Caterpillar G or H Series; that statement does not apply to John Deere or Deere even though he tries to make it sound applicable. That control pattern/system was designed by Caterpillar back in the late 60s and went into full production in 1973. There were Caterpillar field-follow units using this system on jobsites in 1971. The first John Deere I personally operated with this system was in a C Series in 1997. The B Series I ran before that had a different setup and the John Deere I ran before that had some levers, which moved side to side and the one before that had toggle switches. No where close to what they’re using today. So when it comes to JD or Deere the industry standard controls have not been around forever. I’m sure they put lever steering on the left side for much the same reasons Caterpillar did, but now Deere has two lever controlled steering functions on the right (Leaning wheel & Articulation) and the third one (Lever Steering) on the left…... Interesting! I personally heard John Deere and Deere sales-people state that their motor graders had superior visibility out the front of the machine due to their tapered frame. I wonder what they’re telling people now. Why did they go to a Bridge Style/Arched frame? It doesn’t appear that the point where the linkage and lift cylinders mount is any higher? Did they gain any lift height from the C or D Series? I’ve also heard these same sales people state that Deere’s design was superior to Caterpillar’s. So I always asked, “If their design is really that good then why not carry it forward, why not build a machine to compete with the 14H/M? Why not build a machine to compete with the 16H/M? Why not the 24H/M, which has absolutely no competition? I have never been given any straight answers to those questions. I personally can’t wait to try one out. They do build a nice looking machine and have a good AWD system. The same could be said for Deere. There’s brand loyalty that goes both ways, it’s not much different than NASCAR, NFL or NBA. You love some teams you can’t stand others. Not from what I’ve seen. There are more operators that like them than dislike them where I’m at. Have you run an M Series or even sat in the seat of one? I’ve personally heard Blade Operators tell me they think Deere’s graders are a piece of %$#&*#@. I don’t think they gave the Deere a fair shake much the same way you’re doing. I'm assuming "They" refers to Deere and "maket" refers to market? If so; do you have some good sound PINS to prove this statement? Because if you’re taking the word of a salesman without seeing the true evidence yourself then you’re spreading bad information worldwide much the same way they do. Worldwide PINS were a well guarded number when I was there. Just because a county, city or even a state close to you has changed doesn’t mean the world has. Deere motor grader sales here in Alaska are still very limited, but I know that means nothing on the world market. They have never been awarded a state tender or even city tender that I know of. I can tell you this; when I last saw the numbers Champion/Volvo was number 2 in the worldwide sales and Deere was a distant 3rd, they were 2nd in the U.S market. There are 50 States, 3140 Counties list by the U.S. Census Bureau in the U.S. and 262 cities with populations exceeding 100,000 residences. That doesn’t even include all the cities with under 100,000 residences, small towns, township, villages and last but not least the CONTRACTORS in all these places. Nearly all own a motor grader and several own large fleets. Lots of motor grader sales! I really don’t know what the worldwide PINS are right now. I just see what’s going in this state and read about some others. Caterpillar still controls the market up here with Volvo as the main competition. Even when you look at PINS (provided you could get the real ones) there are numerous other manufactures that are effecting the numbers now that weren’t even selling motor graders a few years ago; New Holland, Case, Terex etc. etc. Regards, Randy
If you go back to the first thread and watch the video alot of your questions will be answered. The steering wheel is always live and it enabled them to make there electronics alot simpler. They don't have to have a triple redundant system because there steering valve has priority and yes it is a steering valve. As soon as I can scan a parts picture I will upload it to put that to rest. Also the individual controllers can be replaced one at a time so if something goes wrong you aren't replacing the whole joystick. These little controls have logged thousands of hours of testing in the lab as well as being field tested. Caterpillar opened the door changing controls, lets face it no one was going to make that change untill Cat did. Now they ( Deere) has just made it better, and simpler in my opinion. No one that I talked to was clamoring for a comletely new way to operate a motor grader, I think the Idea was to make it easier to incorporate the electronics or grade control that seem to be getting so popular of late and I think JD accomlised that.
I am not speaking for Mr Nesbitt But I think he was conceeding that Caterpillar has been the industry standard. And I think that control pattern went a long way to establish Caterpillar as the market leader, Cause face it Deere has made some very good contributions to what we now know as the modern motor grader. articulation first all hydraulic machine first all wheel drive and the standard for what is a very good all wheel drive system that even cat now uses. ( same concept, two seperate pumps, seperate motors, speed sensors to keep everything in sync.
The reason we were given was to make room for the mid mount scarifier. Also told they did make small changes to the lift likage geometry although you cant really tell by looking at it.
Quote: with the cool reception joysicks have been getting by some Not from what I’ve seen. There are more operators that like them than dislike them where I’m at. Have you run an M Series or even sat in the seat of one? I Know you know more about a motor grader than I ever will however I see nothing wrong with this quote Randy, If you go back and read what you wrote more operators like them than dislike them, how many didn't like the controls on the H or G models. They changed something that didnt nessesarlly need changing at least not that drastic. I am only expressing an opinion . It reminds me of the D5C hystat machine where you had to hold the lever in place to make the machine move and if you were going over rough terrain you hand moved and they machine was jerking all over the place and people hated that setup. They in my opinion missed the mark. Deere came out with the H series hydrostaic dozers which had a detent when you put it in forward and went on to enjoy good market share with that whole line of dozers ( in north america ). The Cat D5C hystat gave way to the D5G which had a very simular system as the Deere. First let me be clear I am not an operator I can run a machine but I am not an operator. I have run a 120M series and because I am not an operator I didnt have alot of trouble with it except for the steering. I just feel like with the steering they ( Cat ) missed the mark. There are lots of comments from very devoted Caterpillar operators on here and we even know some of the Caterpillar field tech's around home that tell us what a nightmare the steering is. If you like it thats fine that's why they make chocolate and vanilla. We have been hearing resistance to this new control pattern that didnt used to be there and we hope to capitalize on it.
You must forgive me I forget that this is a world wide forum and I get caught up in my own little world sometimes. When I was talking market share earlier I was taking about North America. And I am not going to quote numbers but I have seen them, and If you havent seen them in the last five years you would be suprised I think. I feel sure you have connections still and can find out for yourself and if they are honest they will tell you that we have gone form being a Gnat on the radar to a condor. Let me once again clarify in the sizes we compete in , I realize we dont make units as big as Catepillar but I think if the numbers were there after the success of late that could change. Just my opinion I work for a dealer not the Company. Scott
curious Randy I was wondering if you and Mr Nesbitt know each other? I know you used to work for Caterpillar on motorgraders and since Mo has been doing that for years also with Deere if you have ever crossed paths? Scott
As much as I believe an injection of fresh customer comments is good for Cat management to hear, let me ask you this -- is there a Deere product that you'd tell us bad stories about? If not, then is it fair for you to continually blast the Cat product? (I don't suspect that Deere's products are absolutely perfect and completely devoid of defects?) If so, then why aren't you sharing your entire perspective?
Didn't know I was speaking directly to Cat management. If you look back in some of my earlier post I have actually praised some Cat machines (G Model Motor Graders being one of them.) Just expressing an opinion as I think is allowed in this forum. As far as the bad stories about Deere I'm sure you dont need my help with that one. Besides I was commenting on Motor Graders. I'm sure that everyone is a little sensitive when it come to the comments some have been making about M series Graders on this forum. Bottom line is you never to hear these kinds of comments before and it has given the rest of us a little shot in the arm. Heck we have been sensitive for years now its nice to see the shoe on the other hand for once.
Even More Interesting Cat appears to be making the move away from the midmounted scarifier and wisely so. The 120 is the only Caterpillar motor grader I believe you can still order it on. Hence the move away from the Y Framed Drawbar and back to the A Framed Drawbar. The Y frame was necessary to clear the mid mounted scarifier. I personally hate that mid mounted scarifier with a passion and expressed this many times while there. What a great way to ruin a motor graders moldboard capability. I still don’t understand why they would do this for a mid mounted scarifier; they have a really nice blade lift linkage systems. It seems all a mid mount would do is limit the moldboard capability. I didn’t see it listed in their attachment guide, but found it listed on the build sheet. I found one picture of it, but can’t see it well enough in the picture to tell how it will clear the A Frame. Wanted to look and see if they had designed the arms to clear the A Frame with the pin in the far left or right hole. I would really like to see if you can do a 2:1 back slope the same way as before with a mid mount on a new G Series and not tangle the drawbar with the mid mount arms or do a reverse backslope and not hit the corner of the moldboard. I actually wing snow sometimes with the moldboard. I totally understand that the geometry has change, the system is now mounted at a totally different angle, but did they gain any lift height vs. the D Series. They claim 17.8” now. What was the Ds number? Interesting! My point about market share and studying the numbers is that I’ve seen too many use some of the numbers, but not all the numbers. Totally Hypothetical: Komatsu sells the same number of motor graders in 2008 as they did in 2007. Caterpillar sells less graders in the same time frame, Deere sells more motor graders, but the Komatsu salesman tells his customers they have increased their share when compared to Caterpillar because everyone always compares themselves to the leader. So did he tell the truth? Yes he did, but it wasn’t their machine that really made the difference (in this hypothetical situation). I saw this happening toooooooo many times. Some players have dropped out, but there’s a lot more have entered to effectively change these numbers. I believe this present economy will eliminate these players from the market, but it will take a little time. In regards to the D5C; I’ve spent time on one and didn’t hate it, but will admit I’ve always liked Deere’s small dozers and have stated this on forums before. That’s what I grew up running. That’s what my father and grandfather owned. I have spent a little time on a Deere H Series and told those that would listen; I thought it was a very nice dozer. I agree with you that Deere has brought some good contributions to the modern motor grader, but hydraulics, AWD and articulation are none of them. Champion, Clark, Galion, Austin Western, Huber, Warco, W.A. Riddel (marketed under Huber Warco after they joined forces), Aveling Barford and MBU just to name a few; all had hydraulics and some had hydraulics over 20 years before the 570 was introduced. Though they were no where near first with AWD they have been a leader in this one. They have a well designed and well protected (patent) system. In regards to Mr. Nesbitt; my predecessor Don Hess had dealt with him, knew him and had pointed him out to me. I was usually one day ahead or behind him (well planned) when visiting sites and in one case about an hour ahead. I knew he was arriving and left just before he and some other Deere personnel arrived. There was a lot of time and studying done before the decisions were made to change. We can agree to disagree because I say there was resistance to motor graders in general and still is in some areas. We saw this on numerous jobsites and at the mines. People didn’t want to run them. They wanted to be on other machines. Excavators where always popular. What was it going to take to attract the Nintendo Generation to want operate these things and yet not alienate the old hands? Levers? I don’t think so. Where there is little risk there is little reward. That’s the way it always has been and that’s the way it always will be. Regards, Randy
Customers desides who and which modell/produser that will gain or loose market share now. Cat has made a brave move. I know for a fact that they have gained a huge market share the last year.(over here) Of course their number in 2007 was near zero. That has to be taken into consideration. And many customers did stay veeery long with their G's before they changed. As for sales on worldbasis i have said it before: 50% is CAT. 25% is Volvo The rest is shared with the others.(Deere, Komatsu, Terex, Veekmas, Champion...) 2007 numbers. It would be interresting to get the 2008 numbers...
Agreeing to Disagree Book Giant Earthmovers By Keith Haddock page 93 and 94 Credits Deere as the having the first Articulated Grader and I qoute " In 1967, John Deere entered the Grader Market with the JD-570 this machine featured articulated frame and front wheel steering which gave it excellent manuverability. At that time no other manufacturer offered articulation in graders." As far as hydraulics what I stated was first all hydraulic. The statement I have often heard for years is we made the first all hydraulic articulated motor grader and I still belive thats true but I will research further. I also thought about some more first I have read about years ago and, you can correct me on this because I am sure you know this one Randy is the seven position saddle. Didn't the G models have a five position. ( when I say first I am talking amoung the major North American Manufacturers.) Have to excuse my small thinking, I have never been out of the country but once and that was on a ( cruise to the bahamas ). Bottom line is we could argue all day about who done what when, who was first, I was simply made a statement that Deere has made some nice Contributions to what we know is the modern Motor Grader, as well as many others It just hasn't gotten them anywhere untill maybe now. Agreeing to disagree but still good to talk to you Randy about my favorite subject, Motor Graders. Scott Whats the deal with spell Check? sometimes it seems to work and sometimes not.
500 Years of Earthmoving Scott I have Mr. Haddock’s books on my shelf also and have read that statement more than once, but I disagree and wouldn’t be surprised to learn if he got that information directly from Deere. 500 Years of Earthmoving by Heinz-Herbert Cohrs; Pg 118-119 tells it differently and so do some others. I have always considered Awful Western the first at articulation and so did many of the old hands. I have had this debate with others before and it wasn’t just Deere salesmen I was debating. Every operator I ever knew that ran an Awful Western (my great uncle being one) had nothing but phrase for them. They had a good share of the market back then and were actually very advanced for their time. 6 tire, AWD, AWS, and Hydraulic. In regards to physical mechanics Webster simply defines articulate as: 1. to connect by joints 2. to put together in a connected way. Therefore these other machines clearly qualify; both machine’s rear differential and tandems were connected to the main frame using joints and were steered independent from the front. Yes, I know what you’re thinking; they didn’t do it the same way it is being done today. That’s true; it’s not being done the same way, but the fact is they did it first. Have you ever studied the tracking numbers on these old articulated/rear steer machines? I built models (my personal hobby) and computer models and studied these numbers. Extremely Interesting. When did the word “articulate” first see usage in regard to heavy equipment? I also enjoy the debate especially when it involves Motor Graders. Good Luck with your sales and I will look forward to future conversation with you, but I ask that you do just one thing for me. Take a look at these pictures below and understand this is a gauge that I’ve used for many years when I hear someone say, “that aint never gonna work”. Years ago Scott I saw it on the news and I read in the most prominent newspapers and magazines that this was going to be the biggest disaster that ever was. It was going to wipe out the caribou herds, destroy the environment and leave Alaska in ruins. Some even still ridicule the thing to this day, unbelievable! IT’S BEEN OPERATING FOR OVER 30 YEARS and it was built by a bunch of Blue Color American’s. :usa Are they ever going to let up? When you see this thing in the vast openness and you really consider; this is the energy life blood for the West Coast of the United States of America it really is amazing. We fly for miles & miles & miles over nothingness and suddenly there it is; this little black line on a map that disappears as quickly as it appeared. That tiny line that numerous people said was going to be the biggest disaster has brought comfort and convenience to countless homes and communities throughout the West Coast of America for over 30 years (over 10,000 days and nights of operation). Thousands today will fill their tanks with petroleum products that came through this line. Yeah it’s had a few problems, which I’m sure you’ve read about, but you will never read about the millions of lives that it has effected in a positive way. No; I’m not a cyanic. I just admire those that ignore the nay sayers and push forward with great ideas against adversity. I believe that the M Series is a bold move, but it is a move I will bet on against the naysayers the same way I did with the TAP (Trans Alaska Pipeline)! You would be amazed at what this 16M has been through on the North Slope of Alaska this winter. When Phase III blows hit and all other machines were issued No Travel advisory we still had to go out and try and keep the roads open in case of an emergency and for fuel deliveries. Regards, Randy
great pictures Love the pictures Randy. Hope to Have a G model Deere on the 27th of this month to demo to a County. I will take some pictures also and try to upload them although, the scenery probably won't be near as interesting. Not too bad when the cotton feilds are in bloom though. Scott
Scott I will look forward to seeing those and hearing how the machine is being received by operators, owners and mechanics. There is some where in the book 500 Years of Earthmoving where they credit Deere with being the first to put the Articulation joint ahead of the differential, but they credit Aveling Barford & Austin Western with being first at Articulation. When I get time I’ll read through this some more and find it again. All the younger operators I know don't have a clue who or what Austin Western was! Regards, Randy
The new JD G series looks nice from the outside. Have to try one first though. Anyone has a picture of the interior of the cab? I've checked on the internet but have not found any pictures of the cab. There's of the new controls but nothing else. Are they scared to show it???? Randy I like your 16M
You're not speaking to Cat management directly, but there are various product groups who do monitor these forums. Traffic to this site is certainly not comprised only of us who post and act fanboish! You are certainly allowed an opinion; my point was only that I think we get the point. There's no need to jump in all the threads that feature an M-series "issue" and call out how great the Deere graders are. I am a bit cross on this on. On the one hand, people say that Cat is stagnant and isn't doing enough innovating; on the other, they blast Cat for bringing out equipment that attempts to address some fundamental issues in earthmoving. Machines will go through teething problems. Bobcat's the market share leader in SSL and CTL and its first-run CTLs had drive motor issues. The Case XT machines were renamed the 400-series in part, according to a local dealer, because their reputation was so tarnished at the outset. I just want to bring up that everyone has issues and it's fair to voice them, but I don't think it's fair to continually pillage the Cat product or brand. That being said, I agree with everything you wrote (even if I can't think of a specific Deere product that has been ridiculed to no end...) and hope that this is the last of my comment... I didn't mean to stir anything up in particular, just to call attention to the undue amount of criticism the M-series has attracted. [Edit: perhaps I'm in the minority here... , in which case like I said, I'll shut up.]
Credit where credit is Due I know I have been somewhat outspoken on the M series graders and to be perfectly honest I hope It aileniates some operators, but I am someone who can give credit where credit is due, and the older Cat G models made a lasting impression on me. I shared a story In a forum on here somewhere I dont know if any of you read it about how impressed I was when I attended and auction on a customers yard where they were auctioning of probably six or eight Caterepillar motor graders. Half were 140G's and the other half were 140H's. The I did a walk around on all of them Cause I was also going to put a number on them. I couldn't believe the condition of these G model graders. The H's had leaks between the valve sections, cylinders leaking and had new parts in diffrent areas all over the tractors. The average age of the H's were 10,000 hours and the G's were probably 16,000 best I could remember. The G models has no leaks all original components as far as I could tell ( starters, alternators, ect. ) Didn't look like there had ever been a wrench on them. Needless to say i was very impressed and I feel if they were still making that grader today my job would be alot harder. Im sure the H model was an improvement, I just dont know enough about the way they operate day to day to tell what that improvement was, just looking as an outsider. Im sure Randy can explain though. I'm also sure the same is true with the M model.
The cab is not a whole lot diffrent that the D model cab if you saw one of those except for the new controls ( option ) and a color monitor that doubles as a backup camera monitor if you have that option. I will see if I can get some Cab pictures and post them.
Time will be the Teacher Scott It would be impossible to make an across the board comparison, but I agree that some could be made. Many new comers to this business don’t realize that the G Models manufactured in the 90s were nothing like the G models manufactured in the 70s. I was actually surprised that they never changed the letter/I.D in the 80s since the machine went through some major changes. There were those in marketing that did not want to get rid of that G identifier. So without knowing years and more info about the machines you saw I would be shooting in the dark. I can tell you this over all; the G Series Motor Grader was the longest running Caterpillar product (22-23 yrs) and one of the most reliable. Just to list some major differences between early model G Series and later model G Series. The machine was introduced with High Standby (2500 psi) Load Sensing Hydraulics then in the late 80s switched to Double PC Low Standby (390 psi) Load Sensing Hydraulics. High Standby was originally used to make the machine operate like a mechanical motor grader. Low Standby was used to save energy by lowering parasitic and lower the temperatures. The old pumps ran higher temperatures because they were always under high pressure. This was the reason for the hydraulic dump valve on the cab floor of the early G Series. You held it down to start the machine in cold weather (I personally held it down every time I started the machines, warm or cold); it just dumped the oil back to tank under very low pressure. The 16G with their huge 60 plus gallon a minute pump would barely turn over unless you stood on that valve. I saw 2 machines shear the pump driveline from foolish people letting up on the dump valve too fast in cold weather. The point being the systems were very different and they operated very different. They used different pumps and totally different implement valves. This Double PC load sensing system also did not have the ability to differentiate between pressure demand and flow demand like the H Series Triple PC system. The hydraulics also changed from external gland to internal gland cylinders in the 80s. The machine was introduced with a pre-combustion/glow plug engines then switched to (D.I.) direct injection with no glow plugs in the 80s. These engines were very different and it was easy to tell which one you were running. The D.I. engines had way better power and generally were easier on fuel, but some of this was attributed to the lower parasitic of the Low Standby Hydraulics. Not having to turn that pump at high pressure all day made a difference. The machine was introduced with non pressurized cab then switched to a pressurized cab (govt. regulations) in the 80s. This was one of the most noticeable appearance items that change on the G Series. The two cabs looked very different. I personally loved that flip out front window on the early models, but it caused too many problems with creating positive pressure. The 14 & 16G circle and moldboard tip assembly had some major design changes in the late 80s. They also switched the tip system to full floating pins. Far more reliable and gave it 5 more degrees of range. There are several other features that changed through the years, but some are secret! My point is to show that the later models were very different from the early models. Probably more changes than you would find between an N Series dozer and an R Series dozer yet the G Series identifier remained. In regards to how the G Series compares to the H Series. I can only speak from my personal experience. We have 13,000 hrs on our 14H right now and it’s still running well. It’s started life as a governmental snow removal machine (equipped w wing and nose plow). Right now it runs two 12 hour shifts on the North Slope of Alaska. On the present oil field development project it does everything from tow 50 ton cranes up hills, finishes drilling pads to maintaining ice road. It constantly operates in sub zero weather some times as low as 50 below 0 Fahrenheit. In the summer we use it for haul road maintenance, placing borrow, screened gravel and crushed rock. We also use it to finish grade with. Last summer it maintained haul roads on an Articulated Truck job, hard road with lots of large rocks to deal with. It still has the original motor, transmission and hydraulic pump. I can’t say about the starter because I’m not always on the jobs where it’s at. It may have been replaced when I was not around it. We have had to put a new compressor on it. It has only had two valve bank gaskets replaced that I know of. When you see the temperature this machine operates in it’s amazing to me it hasn’t had more leaks. In regards to reliability and availability I would honestly compare it to the G models that I have run. Now comes the difficult part on making an across the board comparison. This 14H has far better power than the G models I’ve run. Of all the G models I ran there was only one that had the same power this 14H has. When you’re finishing crushed rock all day; that really doesn’t matter too much, but if you’re placing material with the machine for 10-12 hours a day. Now that’s a whole different story. I know this 14H has the power in 4th gear to push gravel all the way up through the circle if you’re not careful. Unfortunately some people aren’t careful. Most of the early G Series I operated couldn’t do that unless you were down in 2nd gear. Some of later DI engine G Series could do it in 3rd or maybe 4th. The later model 14H equipped with the 3176 could do it 5th gear. When I’m placing fill with this machine on a hill it has no problem starting out in 4th gear and backing up hill in loose freshly dumped material. Most of the G Series I ran couldn’t do that without slipping the inching clutch a lot. To start out backing up hill in loose material with a 14G usually took dropping to 2nd or 3rd to get started. So what I’m getting at here is; don’t just look at hours, try to think how many cubic yards of material did each machine handle. That’s difficult do. Though I don’t operate it nearly as much I know our 160H has around 19,000 hrs. The engine was replaced a year and a half ago at around 17,000 hrs. This machine has spent far more time in the arctic than our 14H has so I don’t see it nearly as much. I just repainted it this fall so I got to take a good look at the structural side of it then. Structurally it’s still in excellent condition. I do know the two operators that run it most of the time still love the thing. When I flew home for R&R two weeks ago our 16M had 2928 hours on it. So today it has over 3000 hrs. So far a retaining bolt for a steering cylinder pin came out, some dripping around some O rings when the temperature got to 50 below 0, transmission up-shift button went out (replaced under warranty) and numerous steering alarms when the temperature gets down around 30 below (even though it’s still steering fine) plugged air filters with snow (moved the intake under the hood). Plugged cab pressurizer filter with snow, cracked door window glass. It’s never left me stranded and I really enjoy running it. Just spoke with my boss up there this morning; it’s 52 below 0 with 12 knots wind so all machinery is parked. I return on Thursday. Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Time will be the Teacher….. Regards, Randy
Randy, All I can say is....wow Awesome transfer of knowledge. Thanks for the phenomenal post!!:notworthy
All the operator info is amazing to me but I've formed my opinions of graders on how much I've had to work on them and what it cost to accomplish that work. I've looked at lots of used graders of all manufacturers and found things good in all but lots of bad things also. I have seen the best service out of Cat graders. As I mentioned earlier keeping blades adjusted properly and having to weld up cracks in the circle carriers is a big issue with me. I've consistently seen Champions, Komatsu and Deere units with sloppy carriers and cracks in the draw bars. Another weak point that typically shows up is in the front axle. I don't know what the Deere uses but I would sure hate to see greased front wheel bearing anymore. Those are machines only engineered for grading the sides of county roads. I also like to the the tie rods and steering cylinders on the back sides of the axle. The use of plastic seems to be getting out of hand also. Plastic fuel tanks should be a no no. I find fault in all manufacturers for this but what can you do. If I see a fire in the engine compartment on any of these machines I'd probably give it a squirt with a fire extinguisher and then get away. On the Cats I've never liked the hydraulic pump being under the cab the way it is. It's hard to get at and definitly a finger getter when changing that thing. Maybe it's better on the new Deere? At any rate in my eyes the only test that means anything in rating a machine is the cost to operate it per the amount it accomplishes. What that involves is life cycle costs. I don't care how comfortable a machine is and how much operators like it, if it costs more per unit accomplished, no owner will want it. So now to put the Deere to the test. Just how is this new machine going to move the same amount of material as the Cat for less money? Just how far will Deere go to prove its machines merits? I really do look forward to seeing this machine in the field.
Randy, Guess I didnt realize how long a run the G model had. The ones that were at this sale were like 97 models best I can remember. They also had this old 87 Model 140G no cab just open R.O.P.S. It had been in the weeds for sometime because it was set up to do mostly paving work ( slick tires ect. ) and they mostly maintained county roads. So when I sold them some new graders this machine along with nine others were sold at auction. That old 87 model with no cab, slick tires, was about a 5 on a scale of 1-10 sold for $ 61,000.00 I couldnt beleive it. So as well as being reliable they hold their value too.
There Really is A Difference Scott The G Series was in production a long time. There are still a lot of them out there putting in a days work and will be for some time. There is way more than meets the eye when it comes to these comparisons. Many don’t dig very deep nor look at all the numbers when comparing. I remember pulling the brake packs apart, measuring all the disks, calculating all the surface area and figuring who had the most. This was all part of the “Life Cycle Costing Projections", trying to figure out who could get the most. We weighed transmission components, measured clutch packs and disk surfaces, we ran drawbar pull tests, closely monitored fuel usage, ran production studies in the dirt (the fun part) :thumbsup. There are a lot of things that people can’t see on the outside that have a long lasting effect. My favorite competitive demo was to show the moment effect that Champions 6 to 1 tandem chain reduction had on their tandem case. I could get the machine down in a ditch so the front tire was being held in place by the back slope, put the machine in a good steady ditching cut causing the engine to lug down and force a downshift, just as the transmission would downshift the front tandem tire would momentarily come off the ground and the back tandem tire would damn near go flat (during one demo it actually did break the bead seat and went flat) ops . Then I would put the Cat in the same ditch and cut as hard as it could, I would up shift, I’d downshift and both tires would stay on the ground :thumbsup . After the demo I would unbolt the tandem covers and show them the difference inside the cases. For years they thought that big tall Champion tandem case was for strength, no it was done so they could run that big tall sprocket inside. Every time I did this demo for a Champion owner the light bulb would go on rofessor , he now knew why his rear tandem tires were always wearing out faster than his front tandems. Now he knew why they were eating up chains. No one had ever shown them or explained why Caterpillar’s reduction was done inboard of the tandem case using final drives. There were many other demos like this, but you had to know what was on the inside if you were going to bring it out. In regards to the Hyd. Pump being difficult to change, can’t argue there, but the average on the G Series that I’ve been around is well over 10,000 hours on the pumps. I was on a Hi Standby 16G in the 80s that made it over 17,000hrs on the original pump and the machine was equipped with Spectra Physics blade control. I’ve never changed one on an H Series yet, which I believe is some what of a testament to the Triple PC system. Just don’t let the operators park the machine with the levers in float and leave it for long periods of time. Originally the pump was put under the cab to limit the number of hoses from going across the articulation hitch since Caterpillar has advocated using articulation as a working tool. They also wanted the pump on the same frame as the implement valves and the tank. Also for those that missed the other thread, Caterpillar has been using Axial Style Piston Pumps in motor graders for over thirty years, the other manufactures have all followed and some just made the change in the last few years. Caterpillar was the only one using three layer “Spiral Wrap” (XT3) hydraulic hose on their motor graders. The G Series Development helped drive the design of this hydraulic hose. It has been protected by patents for years. This was another fun demonstrable difference to show customers in the field. Many customers didn’t have a clue there was a difference between the machines hoses (braided vs. spiral wrap), hose is hose; right. Wrong! This hose was designed to work with the “Lock Check Valves”; another Caterpillar first, which all the other manufactures have now followed. This hose gave Caterpillar the ability to virtually have no accumulation effect while running high pressures (3500-3600) psi. The high pressures gave the required power from smaller diameter cylinders rather than lower pressures in larger diameter cylinders. This all led to clearance issues, visibility issues and a hydraulic machine, which locked in place like a mechanical. All noticeable differences when you operate the machine day after day and you’re trying to rub the paint off of hubs. In regards to the front axles Caterpillar pioneered the “Live Spindle Design” just for motor graders due to all the lateral forces that the machines are subjected to (that’s if they’re being run properly) . Last I knew they were still the only one using it? Caterpillar also was the only one using a “Single Ring Forging” for their circle. For many years the other manufactures used a rolled welded ring, which generally cracked. Are any of the other manufactures now using a forged circle or single ring forging? They weren’t just good at marketing; there really is a difference when you start to study them. I too had my doubts about the use of plastics or composite materials, but so far have had good performance from them. I had a broken Pewag All Square tire chain hit a 14H fuel tank a couple times before I could get the machine stopped. It did absolutely no damage to the fuel tank, but put a nice dent in the engine door. Time again will be the teacher on these components. There are a lot of plastic tanks out there right now and I haven’t heard much. One good thing; no more rust in the old fuel tank anymore. Caterpillar had a video where they showed a tire chain slapping an H Series fuel tank repeatedly as part of the testing. :Banghead Regards, Randy