Hey guys, do any of you own a Cat 299C or a John Deere 333D. Wondering what the difference between the 2 are, and any pros or cons between the two. Any input would be great Thanks
333... If anything is like the 332,Poor visisbility out front and to sides and out back because of the lift arrangement... Deere's lift setup sucks. 299... Much better visibilty, Less to bend/twist whhen pushing. I'd buy this one. Tak 150 or 250/Mustang MTL 325/ Gehl CTL 85... My favorite big skid. Good visiblity and extreme balls. The least to bend or twist because of the radius path. Case 450CT,Lots like the Tak,just less balls to lift with. The Tak/Gehl/Mustang and case where just some other options...
The deere 332 does have poor visibility. 299 has poor rear visibility. Ozz which machine had better visibility the case 450 or the 299?
You obviously haven't spent much time in a Deere and have never been in a D-series. It is nothing like a 332 except for exceptional power and pushing ability and some of the best lift capability in the industry. Front visibility is very good and better than the Cat to the quick tach, and to the rear it's not even close for Cat. Lift setup sucks? Anyone in the business knows that the Deere and New Holland style lift is the design of choice if a lot of heavy lift or pallet work is a requirement. Bend and twist when pushing? Push against the stops like a smart operator would and you will never see any flex whatsoever. Do it off the stops and you still will be lucky to make it flex under load.
but what is the cost on each machine.
I was quoted less than 60K for a new 333D with E/H Joysticks w/ creeper, 2 speed, a/c, quick tach, 84" bucket with bolt on edge, air ride seat, self leveling, chrome pipe, radio and most of the other goodies except high flow and reversing fan.
Does Deere offer ride control on these new machines?
Hmmm...I see you don't do maintenece... The NH setup has too many pins to get sloppy and the bar across the back kills your rear visibility. The loader arms are freaking giagantic across the sides and you can barely see your tracks. For using as a forklift,yes they are a good machine. I havent spent much time in a deere, but have spent a lot of time in an NH. When I push,it's generally against the stops but sometime you just can not. That's when the loader style comes into play. it also seems from your other responses you drink osme deere kool-aid. I personally don't care what I'm in as long as it's making me money or I'm getting paid to run it...
I just bought a second new gehl 7810 with everything you listed here plus ride control minus chrome pipe for 56k.
Not sure what that has to do with anything since we're talking CTLs here. A Deere is not the same as a New Holland. Even so, excessive pin wear and bending/twisting of the boom has never been a problem. Probably because of that gigantic, thick boom you're talking about. I've never seen a Deere with a cracked boom. The bar across the back is higher up on a Deere, so it doesn't affect visibility like a NH. You can see the tracks if you lift the boom about 2". I don't know what your comment about maintenance was about, but maintenance on a Deere is about as easy as it gets.
The thickness of the loader arms has nothing to do with the twisitng motion these loader arms are known for. The loader arms are massive because they have to be. The loader lifts at the rear of the machine. Same as the NH machines and some others. Compare other machines that position the lift cylinder further out from the rear of the machine and closer to the front. The cylinder position guides how large the loader arms need to be. The further the lift cylinders from the point of lift, the larger the arms need to be to compensate for the greater distance from the load to the lift cylinder. I prefer to have loader arms that I can see around. Having the fat loader arms right at eye level when in transport mode sucks on the Deere and NH machines. Maybe this is different in the D series but the orginal series is a visibility nightmare. I agree that when the bucket is all the way down and you can see fine. Put the arms up so you can move and visibility sucks.
KSSS ! ...couldn't agree with you more ! ....my first major skid was a Deere/New Holland...biggest and worst nightmare I ever owned .... and an electrical horror story from hell .....and did not know how bad the visibility was until I changed.... not saying that all are created the same ...But how many times does a guy have to poke a sharp object into his eye before you realize that its just wrong ...to all those that own one great, but it doesn't matter to me how many changes they make... never again for me .......JMO and $.02 worth
Most guys that own deere skid steers or a salesman thats selling them will give you that incredible LINE (why do you need to see your rear tires?) You gotta love that one. Deere makes a good skid steer but there visibility is just not there. Bobcat and case have the best visibility for skid steers
Customer has 9 tracked machines, All bobcat, t190-T300. They are leaving Bobcat as machines nto holding up. Demo'd them a cT332 deere, and Case brought a 450. Cat not invited. the case is winning strictly due to the left/right visibility. These were FULL LOAD machines with every option. Going to arrange to bring a D series Deere over before they buy. They are totally different but will it be enough??
Deere fixed many things with the D series but I don't see how they can improve the visibility. It seems to me to be inherent of the design.
yeah, I'm a Deere guy, just like a lot of guys on here and everywhere else have their preferred machines. My contention with your statements was that they were obviously not from experience, which you have agreed with. Deere and NH are similar, but also very different. Deere does not have a history of boom related or pin wear problems. NH historically fights with the slop and boom strength issue more. Guessing that's part of the reason they don't put a lot of hydraulic power to the boom and bucket. Even with the old style upper link with a lower crossmember the Deere design gave far superior rear visibility to the rear over Cat and some others. The D's now moved the crossmember up higher, so it's a non issue going forward. KSSS: As far as ride control, I haven't seen a need for it, but I know it was available on the 300 series as a dealer kit and would assume it's available on the D's as well for those that want it.
If you have not spent a day in a machine with RC you don't know what your missing. Its a productivity multiplier. You can run at higher speeds and keep the material in your bucket, much smoother riding. Well worth the money. I know that BC's version is kind of a PINA, I think CASE has the best system (I know Gehl has the option but I don't know how it works). With the CAT system you click it on and it stays on. With the CASE you hold the trigger in when you want it, which I like, probably because thats what I am used to.
What ride type of ride control do they have, as I haven’t been able to find any info on the RC in both the JD and cat specs? The loader I operate at the moment has ride control that works to cushion the lift cylinders with nitrogen tank and I must say when you turn the RC off your not in for a good ride lol….
For all that talk about the visibility sucking on the deere the only questionable spot is off the sides. Even at that I don't have the first problem seeing my tracks. If your complaining about having to raise the boom just a little bit you will never be happy. Can any manufacture's machine be seen out of all 4 sides... No. Can I see out of the deere better then the rest?? Yes. I don't need to see the tracks when the boom is down I just feel. Just like some of you have to feel how close you are when backing up to something or leaning forward to see your cutting edge. All the complaints I hear on here I never hear in the field or with ppl that own deere or non-deere machines besides the cab door on the 300-series. Now that is fixed so now what? Theres too much class or the machine is to gray.... I picked a Deere because it had 9 of the 10 things I liked not the other way around. IF you don't get a machine because it had everything you wanted/liked but one thing, you need a shovel put in your hand.
"Theres too much class " Thats some funny stuff right there. I don't think anyone will accuse that lineup of having that issue. Still funny though.:drinkup
LOL! I meant to say Glass. OH well
I have a gehl 4835,and it has a self levelling problem.when i drop the arms the bucket tips down.anyone know how to adjust it?
The Cat track machines, CTL or MTL do not have the Ride Control option. This is limited to he wheeled C-series only.
My name is tim.I have been operating ctl's since bobcat made the 864 which we were bleesed to have the number two machine ever made.I am also an operating engineer who has his own business grading floors for a LARGE concrete out fit.I also rent these and excavators to other contractors.I own a bobcat t-300,cat 267b,a deere 333d and a 332c.I can say from first hand knowledge that the cat is the worst,expensive and pain in the as. to own. this is the 267b.absoulut junk!I have been playing around with these and anyone who is worried about vision on the side of the tracks is a fairy of some sort!!When you go into the pile,you do go in on the side of the pile ,never straight in.Going straight is hard on the machine and stresses the crap out of the loader arms.I have never seen a ctl crack loader arms except a friend of mine who has a 2008 deere 332 with the pumps cranked up in a mason yard.he normally picks skid in excess of 6500lbs.cat makes a decent machine.Deere is much better and bobcat is overpriced and bulky.There is videos you can watch(fiction of course)of bobcat and some moron telling you that bobcat has the edge.these are b.s. videos. they compare machines that are not the same such as comparing a 5 ton excavators to a komatsu pc35 mr.the komatsu(which I own 14 ofis a 8100lb machine) why doesnt bobcat compare a 4 ton machine to this.I watch these videos and laugh to my self saying bring me there and I will run that komatsu right over your cra------ and make you look dumber than you already are.By the way I did own a ck 30 and a ck35 komatsu ctl but had to sell them since they would not pass nyc emissions test.Shame good machines and after you turn up the pump for bucket breakout,animal machines.Also any one who wants to drag race there t-300 against my 333d let me know
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PHjuzOUXnc
I like Deere better than Cat. The new "D" series from Deere are very nice machines..........No problems with any of my Deere CTL's...............
cat is spelled wrong; it shoild say"crap"
cat left out the letter "r"
Since visibility seemed to be the topic of discussion here, I thought I would chime in! Check out the video (about the 50 second mark) for the side-by-side visibility comparison...kinda cool to see them all at once. I have the individual videos, but they are way to large to post! Also, JCB offers smoothride on all their skid steers and ctl's.... http://youtu.be/UYUU_6r-n3Q I thought for sure Dave would have got to this before I did! No doubt the Deere machines are animals for flat out lifting, but there is a lot more to a ssl/ctl....all depends on your needs.
ah yes, well they keep pushing off the release date of my size machine. now they r saying feb or march.
Yes, they have been slow getting them to the dealers as well....Their biggest problem is finding (qualified) labor to increase production of the plant. That sounds hard to believe considering this economy, but apparently in that region, there is not enough skilled labor available???? Not to mention that every one that is going out the door is sold, so it is hard to keep any in stock. You are right about the small frame machines, although Q1 of 2012 has always been their target for release. I am looking forward to seeing these units as well.
Are they sold to customers or order machines from dealers trying to stock them?
by the way, any time i read a post i want to make a comment about how a new jcb would solve their problems, but after a while people just get mad. my initial reaction when i got in one was "how is this possible"
I think the issue is at some point you have to own one to really have an opinion that someone will listen to. Reading the specs and doing a demo only gets you so far. Especially on a machine that is a complete redesign, and add to the fact that JCB has stumbled big time on their skid steer line in the past, so for someone to come in and cheerlead for them without owning one or even a previous series, really makes it hard to read at times.
I'm sure there is some machines that dealers are marking retailed that actually aren't (just to get them quicker), but from my personal experience and talking with other dealers, quite a few of them that are ordered or have come in have been retailed. We are getting great feedback from the customers too. Are they perfect? No, but show me one that is. Not to metion when you look at where we came from (old ssl's and ctl's), to what we have now, we can now compete with any brand out there toe-to-toe. Couldn't say that before, so I am extremely happy with these units thus far.
Every JCB machine I have come in contact with, has been an unending headache. I now tend to be VERY skeptical of any JCB, no matter what the claims are.
well i will own a jcb in march (apparently). i dont see y i really have to own one tho to have a strong opinion. unless the jcb is broken down all the time, i dont see y i would not continue to love it. this is not really jcbs first time to the rodeo. they are not going to release a piece of junk when they are going through all the work they are doing to try to get north american market share. i was thinking the other day i might just have to buy a case because we kinda need to spend the money this year for tax reasons, but then sat in one and quickly decided against it. the difference between a jcb and others is so dramatic, they probably shouldnt call the jcb a skid steer.
Those on here are 95% contractors I would guess, by nature they are very skeptical of claims of equipment greatness, especially from a company with next to no penetration in the NA market and what there has been for skid steers has not been well received. While anyone can have an opinion on different types of equipment, continually beating the drum for JCB skid steers in this case requires much more than your limited interaction with them to be credible is all I am saying. Adding that your a farmer and not a contractor adds to the credibility issue. Not knocking farmers (grew up on a farm in North Dakota) but the type of work is different. Its America Dave, your free to love anyone/or anything you want, including JCB skid steers. The "they wouldn't release a piece of junk". While I kinda agree, that this series of machines "seems better to me" as well, JCB has fallen on their face with every previous interation of their skid steer. So if anyone in the industry is a position of having to prove their machine its JCB. So get your machine this Spring and tell us about it. I for one would like to hear how they run. Your taking a chance though, if its a POS (and even if its not) your resale will be lower than any other mainstream OEM in NA. That may not be an issue if you run it for 10K hours but if you need out, your gonna lose money. Farming being what it is, you can likely afford it, most contractors today cant. So for JCB and those that are willing to throw out money for one untested, I hope they run.
ah well u gotta remember bobcat and cat engineers teamed up to create the new jcb, thats the word on the street at least. so what do "contractors" do with their machines that is so hard on them? seems to me they would have larger equipment to handle the tough jobs. 10k hours is not an option on any of these new skid steers. im thinking you gotta trade before they are outta warranty, with all the tom foolery on them these days. you also have to factor in fuel usage, that alone should make up for your resale value problem.
Bobcat and CAT Engineers teamed up to create the new JCB? Not sure what you mean, but it sounds really really not true. High demand attachments like Concrete breakers, mulchers, planers etc all are much harder on a machine than running it with just a bucket attachment. Contractors spend much more time pushing a machine hard while excavating than do farmers or dairy guys. I will say that ag operations might put more hours them (especially dairy operations) it tends to not be as demanding on the machine as what would see in the construction applications. If your trading out that early than you are either buying an extended warranty or leasing them because the factory warranty accross the board is one year bumper to bumper and maybe two years on the engine. CASE was doing three years on the drivetrain, not sure if thats the case with the new machines or not.
i heard that from a reliable source. it only makes sense if you are making a skid steer in the us to compete with the us skid steers, to hire some bobcat and cat engineers to help you with it. i dont see y that is hard to believe. jcb has the 2 year bumper to bumper warranty. cat always had the 3 year warranty, i dont know what they have now. i do like the idea of picking up an excessively depreciated cat 242b2 to save money. i will reply later about the way i use my machine.
Actually, Dave is correct in both statements. JCB did, in fact, put together a new team to design the new skid, and there were people hired in from other manufacturers. I guess I'm not sure why that would be hard to believe either. It happens all the time in our industry. Additionally, JCB's have carried a 2 year full warranty/3 year structural warranty since 2007. As always, lifetime boom warranty.
Actually thats not what Dave said. He said that BC and CAT engineers teamed up to create the new JCB. That means to me there was some type of joint cooperation between those OEMs which makes no sense. Had he said that JCB hired former BC and CAT engineers to build the JCB, that makes more sense. I am pretty familiar with this industry. I am well aware of the swapping of engineering talent, I met a former BC engineer at the CASE proving grounds in AZ during the release of the Alpha series.
my goodness, i really dont know what to say to this.
If JCB really wants to market skid steers, I would avoid the comments of former CAT engineers used..... like I told a CAT regional rep who was crying that JD was stealing their engineers, CAT greatest marketing ploy to destroy the competition would be at least in their skid steer line, of letting those engineers go.
well lets get one thing sort of right;when we got the first 864 evermade,we WORN out the drive sproket in under 200 hours.WE ARE CONTRACTORS on long island and our operators are some of the best out there.We move anywhere rom 700-1100 yards of material normally using ctls.the cat was a piece of shi-! nothing but problems,the bobcats were a little better but the deers will do it with no real problems at all with the a/c on.Now I am not saying one is better or worse but the deers and bobcay t300 were better suited for doing this job with no b.s.We have a brand new 299c with the berco bottom(says so on it) and it is only used for fine grading or loading the small dump trucks.any thing else and it will break its self to shi-.Listen ,if you are moving alot of dirt all day every day buy a 333d and watch your bank account grow.IF you use your machine not as much(3-5 days a week) buy a cat.I f you use it less than that,buy a bobcat. BUT do not watch there video with some dip shi- tell you that there machine is easier to work on. Try replacing a battery in a t-300 in the field.See how long this takes you. or replacing the stupid belt that controls the fan!another great idea form north dakota.the best come from moline,ill.but that is my opinion.what the hell do I know?
Bingo !!!
Haven't personally had any experience with the D model JD's. Sounds like they've made vast improvements though. Spent many many hours in the JD 322 and 332. Although tremendous amount of power, they would have to rank up there in my all time loser list. Spent way too much time working on them. And, that cab was a joke. Didn't think the Deere boys would stay in that mode for very long.
I'm pretty confident that the rollers in the CAT undercarriage are not Berco, or Passini. I think they are made by a Korean company tha tthey purchased a few years ago to make rollers for their dozers. I can't speak to their quality.
I'm friends with a salesman for the large dealer up here in WI- Brooks Tractor and he said the new D series are better than the previous machines, but that they have had their challenges as well.
Digdeep:THE ROLLERS,SPROKETSTHE BOLTS ARE ALL BERCO!!!!!THE TRACK IS THE E X A C T SAME AS A DEER 332,322(WIDE TRACK)KOMATSU CK 30-35 DEERE 333D( THE F-IN BEST)).WE HAVE THESE MACHINES AND WE STOCK 4 TRACKS!YOU WANT TO KNOW ..................................THEY ARE THE SAME.Not made in china,korea or else where.As a matter of fact the deeres and cat I do believe are even the same sprokets.Komatsu has smaller BUT more of them sporoket bolts.On a deere the front idler goes around the teeth(sort of) of the track.the komatsu goes inside the teeth of the track.But you can swap all these parts from one to another if you had or want to make it simpler to get parts or carry parts.OH YEAH the crap (cat) bolts there BERCO bottom to torsion bars so it rides nice. if you run the machine hard and move ALOT OF DIRT the stretch alot and then the machine sits like it is lowered then you have bucket problems.
So your saying that the torsion bars stretch and cause the machine to squat? That interesting. The best quality of the CAT CTL I thought (demoed a 279C) was the torsion bar system. Interesting they start to sag after a while. No reason to get excited about someone disagreeing with you, its the internet, it happens.
Montauk1970..no need to go postal on anybody here :drinkup I also didn't opine on the reliability. I have to continue to disagree with you, although you are partly right. The "triple flange idler" in the CAT undercarriage is specially built for CAT from Berco due to their derailment problems. However, the other bogie components are definitely Korean made by the company that CAT purchased a few years ago to supply their dozers. Deere and Komatsu are Berco.
CAT is berco. says so right on it.so does deere.so does komatsu.Not one part on cat is korean. that "triple flange" you are talking about is the same as deere and komatsu.The only substandard part that cat ever bought was asv.I will let you in to a secret that was told to me buy the berco FACTORY rep.cat designed that whole bottom with berco parts and ALL the rollers were produced by them(berco) with cat specs.You do not feel that it is odd that they(cat,deere,komatsu) all have the same exact bottoms and track sizes?I can pull off a 299c track and rollers and put those on my 333d(the reason to keep the cat is for parts for the other 2)no matter to me .I will not ever ,ever,ever buy another cat and after telling cat this and cursing them out ,they still want to sell me another one and buy more cat products.Also it is funny that the new deere company is next door to cat.KSSS,if you load ALOT of dirt or heavy material,they can and do snap the torsion springs.hat it is ,is 4 round or square n(not sure) in a square box.and from moving alot of dirt,they get mushy and some times roll over(meaning the machine will squeeze the rubber and hence roll over)not one of there crowning moments!
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/business/01caterpillar.html You are correct. The front idlers is the same as Deere and Komatsu and is Berco (Italian made) and are sourced by the dealer through parts. The others are from the Korean company in the link I provided. Please provide photos of the other bogies that say Berco on them.
ahh yes the idlers are or were made there but according to h.o.penn cat these are on the d-series dozers.he said the under carriage is all berco.not jcs which is for the larger machines.when I figure out how to send pics i will send those of the word berco on the cat 299c we have.
Italian! they were or was made in new jersey.we bought all there parts for our 350 c and d and 450 john deere dozers and track loaders. I had a problem with the komatsu ck-30 we have and komatsu wanted something like 300 or more or less for a part and when we called berco for it directly the said that they could not sell us that part cause komatsu was the sole carrier for it.so they gave us one for a deere or cat not sure maybe new holland(same under carrage) and it was 75 dollars cheaper. the man on the phone was telling us that in his book,deere,cat,komatsu and new holland.......................all the same.different part numbers but same.tracks.same.this is why when you park all these machines together and line up the tracks they are the same length.and height and track pattern.deere and bobcat have little cuts on them but same.
Considering that the loader arms have to be raised on a D-series CTL to work on the engine, how do you work on the engine then when the engine fails, the machine is dead, and you can't lift the loader arms. Just curious, have you ever worked on the D-series?
Berco and a company by the name of Passini are both huge OEMs that compete directly with CAT, Deere, Komatsu, etc. for aftermarket parts sales. They are both most certainly Italian. You are correct to say that Deere and Komatsu utilize a Berco designed undercarriage, but while Bobcat may use Berco rollers now (they previously used Passini just as CNH did), Berco most definitely did not design their undercarriage frames. I can also tell you that the CAT and Deere tracks are not the same length. CAT puts more track length on the ground and thus uses a longer track. Go check out a spec sheet.
go check after market.they are the same length.this is fact and they have the same exact foot print!!! iown these machines,therfore I should know.cat has not got longer tracks.measure them.they are exact.cat track is no longerthan any one.
also deere has more weight on them therefore more tractive torque.if cat is longer,than how come wheni put my cat,deerer and komatsu together they are the same.mmmmm weird.
the numbers from the manufacturer can only be trusted if you are comparing machines of the same brand. i was recently duped into thinking that our bobcat was significantly shorter than the competitive machines. now i am not so confident. i never looked into it much, but if you get your tape measure out things start to look different.
it is a ploy that they play on you. As I was told by a bobcat person(cheif of engineering of the t-series) he told me face to face that they (cat,deere,komatsu and others) were all using the basically same undercarraige and moving the trailing and drive idlers.The original sprokets on the bobcat were just that bobcat.they were blowing up and destroying the sprokets then all of a sudden this stopped and when we aked the engineer(we have his cell number still) he asked us how was the BERCO parts.they all play games and if they ever came out right and told the tructh there sales would be down(cat)as for working on a deere with a stalled or not running engine,pull of the engine side panels and wala there it is in all its glory.
I very good friend of the family(yes that kind of family lol)Is a bridge stone construction and industrial tire engineer(sales man) and he gave us the low down on whats what with the tracks.komatsu,deere with the 17" wide track................same. the cat 299c...............same as komatsu.new holland............same .now they all have different part numbers but one mold.I am not sure about bobcat but the t-300 I do believe is also same.I will ask him next week.As a matter of fact ,I know of a man who bought our old komatsu tracks for his new cat.what a cheapo.If you park all these machines in a row you will see what I am saying.do the reasearch and you will see.All the same just different b.s in selling it to you..Never met a honest salesmen and NEVER TRUST A MAN WITH SHINNY SHOES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I called my buddy and had him measure his 299 tracks from end to end. Go measure your Deere tracks on your 333D from the front to rear and get back to me.
Deere vs Bobcat I was wondering if anybody has compared or ran both the Deere 333D and the Bobcat T770. I've put almost 500hrs on a Deere 333D and must say this is the nicest and most powerful skidsteer I've ever ran, and I've ran skids for 20 years now. The pushing power is unreal and the quickness and smoothness of the hydrualics and the whole machine. I've seen the bobcat videos comparing the different machines and some of it does look like BS, but some of it I agree that Deere has some weak points on it. I've always been a Bobcat and Deere fan and was just curious if the new M-series is any better than the new Deere's D series.
I don't know what's so compact about the Deere 333d. Holy cow the machine weighs in an a pinch under 14000 lbs add an operator and you are over 14000. Only 89 hp for that heavy of. Machine I would think it would lag quite a bit b
Deere 333D weighs in at 11,100 lbs and has a gross HP of 92, I can assure you it does not lag the least lit bit. Being the biggest skidsteer that Deere offers it still feels small and compact to me with big performance. John Deere 550J Dozer weighs 18,252lbs and only has 85HP so hows that work into your weight/HP comparsion.
You are right on the 11,100 lbs operating weight, I saw bucket break out force and that is 13,875. You comment about comparing a dozed with a CTL for HP is apples to oranges at best. What is the top speed of the dozer 4 mph may be? The CTL will do 12. You obviously have a chip on your shoulder about anything not Deere. Good for you. I didn't say it wasn't a good machine, just a huge "Compact Track Loader". Have fun
It is kind of hard to call it a Compact Track Loader when it is wider (without a bucket) than a D3 with standard shoes and almost as wide as a D3 with LGP shoes. With a bucket it and other brands are almost as wide as a 13yd truck.
To help you with your review I have a video of a JD 333D --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PujUUJ9v6LU and a video of the Cat 299C --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-jydW-0D7s Maybe seeing them in action will help.