I'm looking for a skid steer for farm and trail maintenance use. We live in quite hilly terrain so I'm looking for one with the maximum stability going up and down hills with an empty bucket. Turning around and backing up a narrow, twisty trail isn't what I want to do. I also want joystick controls. From some of what I've heard, NH and Deere have the best stability. I don't really need a lot of lifting power although a moderate amount would be nice to have. I had a JCB 1110 demo for a couple of days. Stability was poor. But I did like the controls. A contractor let me use his Deere 260 for a bit and it was much more stable although he had steel tracks on it which probably helped. He says that he has operated most makes and found the Deere to be most stable. I'm thinking toward either a Deere 325 (that's their smallest with pilot controls) and spec wise is like the 260, or a NH L170. I would appreciate comments about the stability of either machine, and any other general comments about them. Yes, I know the L170 is a considerably smaller machine, but it's also $8K less in price. I can get a demo of either the 325 or the L170. I don't want to go to a CTL because of cost and they lose traction in the greasy clay mud we get here. Thanks, Ken
Why a 325 vs. a L170 ? The 170 is tiny compared to a 325 I would go with the Deere over the NH any day but this is a no brainer on the stability question.
The power of the L170 is probably all I need. But Deere doesn't make any pilot control machines smaller than the 325. What is the "no brainer" regarding stability? Are you saying the Deere is more stable? Why? Have you used both? Thanks
You "have" to have pilot controls? The new Deere "D" series is coming out this fall and is supposed to have pilot controls. I have not run a 325 but have run a 320 and own a 250 and we have a 170 on the farm. The JD's have a lower center of gravity and is much more stable and is just a lot more machine.
Generally, you'll probably find Deeres to be about as stable or possibly a bit more stable than their competitors, including NH. On certain models, it's bound to be a wash, but chances are that if the NH can go uphill with an empty bucket, the Deere will be able to, too. The D-series probably won't be pilot controls; they'll probably be EH. If you're just doing some trail maintenance, I think the NH will be enough. If you're considering expanding the limits of a SSL and get even more out of it, the Deere is a better machine for that role as it will be able to handle more stuff you throw at it.
Double post. Mod wanna delete this?
Please excuse my ignorance, what the difference?
E/H stands for electric over hydraulic. BC, CAT and some Deere models use this method of controling the machine. Each movement of the control handle produces an electrical signal that is sent to the valve. Pilot controls is all hydraulic with no electrical interface. CAT's initial machines and B series used pilots. The C series uses E/H. E/H when properly executed allows for some great flexibility, allowing you to speed up or slow down the response from hand movement to machine movement, it also allows you to switch patterns without lose of performance such as you get with pilots on skid steers. Pilots have some advantages over E/H as well but I am probably going farther than you wanted already. I doubt you would see any appreciatable difference in machine stability between the two. Recently NH started using the CASE speced engines, giving them a lot more performance than they used to have. I doubt that a Deere will have a significantly greater performance capability than would an equally speced NH. I have never had a stability issue with my machines, and really never bought into the arguement that the NH and Deere anymore stable than any other. The operator sits lower in them so you feel like your more planted, but if you check wheel base numbers they are no longer than other machines in their class. The specs on this size machine around 2000 ROC with vertical lift makes for some interesting comparisions. If you compare the Deere 320 or 325, CASE 435 and 445 with the NH 175 and CAT 232 and 262 you find that Deere and NH don't have longer wheel bases than the others infact in some cases they are shorter than CAT and CASE, but overall they are neither longer or shorter than the others by no more than 3 inches. Overall the machines length on the Deere and NH are about 3 inches longer at the most and some are shorter. Comparing width is difficult due to tire options but they all can be speced nearly identical in width. I think the stability issue is a perception more so than reality. I realize that the lower profile may help with stability but over all I think the seating position has everything to do how an operator "feels" about his stability, more so than the machines actually capability to side hill and go up steep slopes. CAT machines have a high seating position which is like seating on a bar stool. Sitting in a Deere is like sitting in a bath tub. If the machines capabilities are identical the Deere will give you the impression of being more stable, even if it is not any more stable than a CAT.
Thanks for the explanation of the difference between E/H and pilot controls. I have a back injury and cannot move my left ankle, so foot controls don't work for me. The 260 I used had "hand controls" but they were extremely stiff. The contractor controlled the machine very well, but he has had thousands of hours of experience. As for "all machines being equally stable", I have my doubts. The JCB certainly was not. I've heard that NH and JD have a 60/40 weight distribution and "all others" have 70/30. I can see where some manufactures would go with the 70/30 since that would give more ROC and look better on the spec sheet. Nobody has maximum climb on the spec sheets I'm less concerned about ROC than uphill stability with an empty bucket. Somewhere on the Deere website (I can't locate it again), they claim to have put Deere, NH and Bobcat on a tilt table and slowly raised it. Deere didn't tip back until they reached 28% (or degrees, I don't remember which). Bobcat tilted at 20 and NH was inbetween. Of course this "test" was designed by Deere and didn't identify which models were tested, so they probably cherry picked the models. But still, I find it interesting. Thanks for all the feedback. Ken
Built this with me mates L170, you got to roll over it. Looking at buying skidsteer for building more steeper ramps at my place. I got no idea but heard longer wheelbase equals better climbing/stability.
Yes, longer wheelbase would help stability IF all else is equal such as height of the center of gravity. Monsta, your little hills look nice but I've got steeper pastures and trails here. Some of the pastures I have to mow by backing the tractor down the hill. The trails are in the steeper woods that can't be mowed
Keep posting on what you get and how steep you go. Photos? Those little hills are ramps for me mx bike. Your place sounds great. Hey I heard Cats have a foot throttle so you dont have to be on the gas everywhere as much. Seen as your not loading trucks. I dont know if this is a good option or not.
Thanks KSSS You sure do love your "Power Tan" Case obviously build a good machine but I have a hard time believing that it has the uphill stability of a Deere.
ksss covered the EH issue pretty well. The vertical position of the CG isn't the only thing that matters in perceptions of stability; the fore/aft location does, too. There hasn't been much published research in this matter, but it is true that Deere and NH are closer to 60/40 and the rest of the field is closer to 70/30. This isn't so much to help the spec sheet as much as it is to help the machine turn -- if you've compared the treads left by DE and NH skids on really hot asphalt to those left by other machines (Case, Bobcat), you'll probably notice that the 60/40 machines turn harder. (Granted the OP is on dirt and probably doesn't care...) I do believe there is going to be some difference in climbing ability among brands, but you'll reach a stability limit (SSL) or traction limit (CTL) long before you run out of power to climb a dirt pile. I hate to say it, but chances are, unless you throw a front axle counterweight kit on some of the 70/30 machines, Deere is going to be your best bet if you want the 325-size machine. If you're not hogging dirt, though, I still think NH may be a more versatile machine. What do you plan to do with the machine specifically? That being said, if you're really worried about stability or operator comfort, the best choice isn't a SSL (or a CTL for that matter)... you might want to consider a compact wheel loader.
"Front axle counterweight", tell me more. I had not heard of that option although I had thought about adding some steel to the bucket for more weight. I also expect that I'll add steel "over the tire" tracks, at least part time. Why do you think the NH may be more versatile? Moving dirt will probably be a minor percentage of the use. More for trail/brush clearing, some grading of trails, general around the farm use, etc. Yeah, I know that for trail work, a bulldozer would be a better choice, but I don't want to go there for cost, maintenance and weight issues. thanks
I assure you there is more to fore/aft stability than "feel". Try loading a BC, Cat, or Case on a gooseneck deckover without a bucket. Ain't gonna happen without backing up the ramp or some hills involved. Deere will do it in most cases unless they're counterweighted with 350#. Going uphill, they all will tip on their azz before the Deere. That's a fact and that's part of the definition of stability. A couple of years ago, Deere changed the control valves to a different supplier, which greatly reduced the effort on the "Case" style hand controls. I ran one and was impressed with the improvement. Should be a huge improvement over a 200 series machine. Might be worth a stop at your dealer to run one in a 317/320 if hand controls are a must and a smaller machine will do what you need.
I highly recommend steel OTT tracks, you will see a huge gain in stability. They are a nearly perfect counterweight.
I am not sure that is an option. I made mine for the back.
OOPS! Wrong picture. PS how do you delete a picture after it has posted?
To late now but edit go to manage pictures and when screen comes up it should also have remove option.
I know Bobcat used to offer front axle counterweights... I haven't actually heard of other brands doing it, but it was possible with Bobcats because of the long axle. You may just have to do what Cretebaby did, but put them on the front instead. I think the NH may be more versatile because it didn't sound like you had a specific need for the larger machine. You mentioned that ROC wasn't too big an issue, it seems like (and I may be wrong about this) you have some tight trails, and you don't move a whole lot of dirt. Grading doesn't require a huge SSL unless you plan to carve instead of grade; general use around the farm also doesn't require the use of a bigger machine. A bigger machine leaves a bigger footprint, obviously, but it also uses more fuel and fluids. These may not be important to you, but with the flexibility of SSLs in general, I don't know if there's a specific need to go with the bigger one "just in case" you might take on bigger jobs. That being said, that particular decision is yours to call, not mine. As for other factors -- you may want to test out a few things before you buy. The hill climbing ability, perhaps, but also visibility, operator comfort, ease of service, and dealer support. I will admit that NHs aren't always the easiest to service if you plan to do it yourself, so if you plan to avoid the dealer after the sale, you may want to get a preview of what it's like to get the cab of an NH up before you run out and buy one. Honestly, I don't think either machine is going to an incredible amount better than the other. I'm suggesting the smaller one only because it's smaller; there are other factors at play -- and you might not even agree that smaller is better!
Thanks :drinkup I will keep that in mind.
Your welcome.:drinkup
I recently got to run a Deere 270, or at least try to. It is so uncomfortable that after 10 minutes of moving trailers around I was happy to get out. That cab seems designed for little people- very bad compared to an old Bobcat. The turns sure sap the power from the machine and the tire wear and ground disturbance is more than expected. As for the operating characteristics of the machine it is hard to say, because it is one of the dirtiest I have seen in a while. There are so many leaves and dead grass near the engine I warned them to clean it up, or else it may become a John Deere barbeque pit.
You have back problems and you are looking to be a skid steer operator My 2 cents. If it where me? I would look for a good small dozer - See grey market thread. And adapt a hydraulic mower to it. Probably get in under 10K and have a whole lot more machine for you jobs. I use my left foot a lot on my manual trans model. Not sure which models would require no left foot.
LOL. I also ride horses. Actually my back is pretty good these days but I do have permanent damage so that I can't move my left foot. That happened lifting a kayak out of the water. Oh, I've thought about a dozer but from what I read, one should be a mechanic if you have one of those things, especially a used one. I'm not much for repairing equipment. Besides, a SS would be a lot more versatile and easier to haul around. But yeah, I realize that a used dozer would cost less (initially) than a new SS. But a new SS should have a lot less maintenance associated with it. Ken
:iagree
Sounds to me like you brought your preconceptions with you when you got in it. 10 minutes in it and you have an opinion on tire wear? Can't get an opinion on operating characteristics because it's dirty? Sounds like a pretty poorly maintained machine.
Has anyone had a ride on NH L190? Still priced okish against DE. Look good.
The newer 190's with the improved power plant spec very well. Don't see any of the 190's around here but a lot of the 180's. Not sure what year when they saw the upgrades.
It always amazes me how equipment is neglected and mistreated and still runs. As for tire wear I have seen how fast those guys go through tires. Some things don't take that long to figure out, and everyone has their preferences. Having a machine that is clean and doesn't leak oil is one of them. Don't get me wrong, there are some really bad Bobcats out there too. Sunday I was replacing hoses on a Bobcat that must have leaked for a while. It took an hour just to pressure clean, degrease and remove the leaves and grass from inside that 751. Instead of replacing hoses and fixing the control valve they just kept pouring in motor oil and running it.
If it's of any use you can check out the various specs and run comparisons at Spec Check . They have a huge amount of machine specs and a comparison tool. If you email them they can set you up with full access for a limited time.
Thanks but they don't list Deere! Maybe it's a European thing?
Deere went with servo-steering on the 325 and up. That made a pretty good difference in easy of operation. It sounds like you need a CT322 to me :my2c Finding a used low hour. low dollar 322 won't be all that hard to find.Over all both the deere and NH are close untill you come to service, hydraulic power, and horsepower. Not saying the NH doesn't have power. You see alot of NH 170,565,665,865,885, and a few 190/985's around here. But alot of NH converts as of late because of price,finacning, and machine differnce going to deere. Hopefully deere will go back to the 4045 engine in the bigger loaders. I really miss em.
I have owned Bobcat, Case, Mustang, and curently own a John Deere 260 which I use in my haying operation. If you are looking for stability the Deere is in my opinion the most stable of all the others I've tried. I load 1200 # bundles of small squares on flat bed goose neck trailers going up and down the ramps hundreds of times a year using pallet forks. The Deere is the only one that would back off the trailer empty without lifting the front tires. I preferred the Case otherwise for visability, getting in and out and fuel economy but my next one will be another Deere. I also grubb alot of brush and like a heavier machine over a lighter one any day. K45 why do you think a CTL does worse in mud than a SS. I put a set of tracks I made on mine when I clean the cattle yard and its the only way I can get around. Hope this helps.
A contractor I know has stated that the rubber tracks are very poor in the greasy winter mud we have here. Likewise, I've seen my mini excavator (with rubber tracks) slip in muddy conditions on a trail after a rain. I had to use the boom to pull it up the grade. I will be getting metal OTR tracks for the SS. From everything I've heard, metal tracks are the best in mud. Ken
I saw the same John Deere website video that showed superior visability and stability over all the other competitor's machines-but I wasn't sure if it was real or not because it was produced by John Deere-I'm also looking to buy a JD 250 or another machine of similar size
I'm also interested in adding after market tracks to my skid steer-any type or brand preference info would help
It's real.
Grouser bar tracks
Thanks for the advise, someone at my Bobcat dealer told me the same thing about grouser tracks
Here is what I am running on my JD 250 and 320
Thanks, my home made ones are steel as well and work great except for loading on an icy steel deck trailer (not fun). I'm suprised that the rubber tracks perform poorly in mud. Can someone that uses rubber tracks explain this?
751 fuel pick up how do i replace fuel pick up tube? access to tank? it looks like its under engine .
325 deere I'm a rookie in skids but I just bought the 325 deere and find it to be one heck of a machine. I am 6'1 225lbs and have plenty of room in the cab, I even pull the seat forward to get a better view of the bucket. as far as hand controls, the ones on mine are very easy and take very little to work them. It doesn't take much to understand how to work it either, 10 mins in mine and I was loading dump trucks with sand in a small work area. I have had mine up some steep hills but I really couldn't tell you the degree of angle. mine has air tires, and back weights, bucket empty but low to the ground. I ran mine 5 hours the other day and felt fine afterwards. I have broken my back in 2 places and broke my neck. I would like to say if your worried about roll over I would think twice about using any type of skid for that work. even a small chance. after all who hasn't pushed a piece of equipment close to its max.? you might find yourself trying to get that last tree stump up there out of the way and over you go. I think the wheel chairs they have now have hand controls that work like the skids. not trying to be ugly, but don't want to read about how you rolled it down the hill and what body part your missing.