well, where to start. first of all it seems that there are basically 3 skid steers on the market. bobcat. jcb. and everyone else. there is quite a bit of differentiation between those 3, but i dont see how case, deere, terex, new holland, kubota, takeuchi, volvo(old school ones), cat, and komatsu are significantly different from each other. jcb is obviously different in many ways. bobcat has their transverse mounted engine which is what sets them apart from everyone else, true and tested pressurized cab on every machine (other manufacturers are making questionable claims), constantly lubricated sealed axle bearings that need no maintenance, dual cooling system that takes air from above, top mounted radiator with solid rear door. then there are all the other skid steers. basically the same with minor differences here and there. i dont see how anyone could argue that my thinking is not correct where you have 3 skid steer types. i see that terex is trying to sell their skid steers based on ground clearance, 1 mph of travel speed, and angle of departure. thats what they say sets them apart. well i dont find that to be all that significant.
I have to say Dave, you do have some interesting ideas.
Not sure where this is going but down is a safe bet. JCB I agree is different. If different is important to you, there it is. Radically different from anything else on the market. I will say that the new JCB appears to be well done overall. Historically however the North American market has not been to receptive to JCB's different approach given how little interest the machines get here in the 15 or so years they have been selling them here. The reason is complicated one is dealer suport issues, the other is I don't think that most people put much stock in the safety attributes of the single arm design. The arm then creates opportunities for others to dismiss it as being unstable or prone to breakage. I know those are unfounded but most who look at it, immediately dismiss it as a solution in search of a problem. IMHO My favorite: Bobcat Bobcats pressurized cab ads you take seriously, everyone elses is subject to scrutiny? Really? I love the transverse engine debate. Let me guess it allows the engine and pumps to work at different speeds and reduce fuel usage. Yea right. Prove it. Considering the additional maintence it causes, you gain nothing. I will take a solid direct engine/pump couple any day and apparently every other OEM would as well. Its a design with no ligitiment reason to copy. Different does not mean better, sometimes its.... just different. There are some new and excellent design changes that deserve some credit. Deeres reverseable cooling fans and their layout for the rad. and coolers is a great idea. No one does that in a skid steer and only the forestry ASV models do that in tracked machines that I know of. I am not sure how significant different is. To me its about productivity. I dont really care about whether everyone else does it the same way or not. If it makes me more productive, it makes me money. At the end of the day thats what matters.
Dave, No offense but it appears to me you are opening a can of worms!!! The only comment i will make in all these "obeservations" is the engine configuration of the Bobcat. You will never, ever, ever, convice me that that is a good idea. Also, If you said there is Bobcat and then everyone else i would say you were correct........... 15 years ago.
It seems I always agree with KSSS. The best machine is the one making me money. I can't think of how all the 'other' brands are the same. Have you really looked at them? They all have there own good and bad points and you pick what works for you as an operator and the work you do. I use New Holland exclusively and have since my first L555 that I got used in 1997. Are they the best? Probably not, but they are for me and I know what to expect. I don't use a skid steer to do real heavy work, I use them in tough spots that need visibility and balance. If I were looking for rugged, I would probably shop around. Whatever, they are ALL different.
yes. perhaps i have opened a can of worms. im just saying from the outside looking in, i think a rational person would come to the same conclusion. the reason i say this is because for some reason, even though bobcat has always treated us well, im looking to buy a skid steer of a different brand just because i feel like it; when i look around at my options they all look the same to me, and im aware of all the subtle differences. jcb is the only machine i could see having a reason to buy other than another bobcat. well, the transverse mounted engine was a better idea when it was first released than what it is now. it had big advantages at the time as far as serviceability, maintanence, and repairs. it has served bobcat well so i suspect they will stick with it. also it takes away the idea of putting the radiator right next to the back door, which i have always had a problem with. its hard to put a price on safety, most people are not willing to pay for it. i blew a hydraulic line today on the bobcat and found myself concerned about getting smashed while i had the cab tilted up sitting under it operating the boom for diagnostic purposes. skid steers are becoming like the auto industry, where everything is basically the same. i have noticed, however, that subaru has a dramatically different design for their cars and i really like what they are doing and the results they are getting. as far as extra maintenance, i dont remember ever doing anything with our belt in the last 8000 hours. our skid steer does not have a tachometer but im guessing the engine does not run at 2800-2900 rpm like i have seen other skids do. seems kinda high for a diesel. as far as the skid steer being productive and making me money because of how it performs, i could not really care less. if i wanted to be more productive i would simply drive more aggressively. i figure most of the time i operate the skid steer at about 40% of what my skills would allow. 100% would be an unsustainable pace. in a skid loader i look for something that sips fuel, is highly reliable with little maintenance and much abuse, and the most important thing i look for is how comfortable i am while driving it; i also like something thats easy to keep clean. as far as the transverse mounted engine being a bad thing, if im not mistaken until recently bobcat has sold more skid steers than everyone else combined so... pressurized cab: i believe bobcats ads because i can see for myself the daylight through all the cracks in the competitors cabs. im aware you can have cracks and still pressurization, but i have my 8 year old machine sealed better than some of these new ones. do any of these skids actually have a pressurization fan?? it looks like the new holland and case skids are pressurized just by looking at them. i long for the olden days when every manufacturer had a machine that was completely different than the next. that was fun, and people actually had a reason to be loyal to their brand. i have always noticed that the crowd is usually wrong and if you do the opposite of everyone else, that is the right thing. i try to employ this strategy in life and it seems to be working well. for example, when the dow jones goes from 12,000 to 6,000, instead of taking your money out like everyone else, you put as much money in as you can. most of the best ideas all throughout history came from people whos ideas were different. maybe this is why i like the idea of a skid steer that is different than everyone elses. such people are always made fun of and ridiculed, or pushed to the side. it reminds me of dr edwards deming who had the peculiar idea (after world war 2) that if you want to be a successful company, you have to create a very high quality product. he tried telling this to american companies like ford and chevy, but no one listened to him. the japanese heard about him and invited him over and all of their companies did what he told them to do, and you know the rest of the story. just an example of why i like different thinking.
From a mechanics perspective, not an operator, the Bobcat machines are overall more difficult to perform repairs (not including engine oil and filter change) simply by their design and component layout. That doesn't mean they're a bad machine, just a pain to work on. And I'm yet to be convinced that the Bobcat machines that use electronic joystick control modules controlling servos on the drive pumps is really that much better than pilot operated controls that have proved over years in many machines to be reliable controls.
i dont like anything that is electronic on my machines, but you are hard pressed to find anyone doing it another way these days. if companies would take the time to make things mechanical and nice at the same time, they would have something.
Dave On one hand you cite BC's position in the market as proof that all their ideas are better than the competition. On the other you say that you prefer to "swim against the current" that the under dog many times has better ideas and that you are not influenced by the direction of the masses. (granted those were not your exact words but I did not feel like cutting and pasting). So which is it?
yes, i figured someone would notice that. surprisingly bobcat is swimming against the current with their transverse mounted engine, and it has been successful. but i was just saying that it cant be that bad because they have sold so many of them. i do believe the transverse engine gives you better fuel economy. any time you throttle an engine back you gain efficiency. i wouldnt argue that bobcat is so sweet, but i would argue that jcb is.
One major area of difference is front to back weight balance. From what I've heard, JD and NH are 60/40 which makes them more stable than the typical 70/30 going uphill without a load. Of course the 70/30 helps the lift ratings. Another thing: put a door and tracks on a JCB. Now try to get out.... Yeah, you can cut the bottom of the door off, but the cab kind of gets filled up when it's muddy.
huh????????
There is a lot more that goes into efficiency then the position of the throttle. Such as optimum rpm for full hp and torque, speed of pump to make needed gpm. Cutting the throttle may use less fuel, but when considering the machines efficiency as a whole its much more complicated than that. I really wish you would run a JCB then tell us how sweet it is. I dont care if its not the right size machine. Looking at a brochure only gets you so far and I think you have taken it way beyond that.
The JCB has side entry with a door. OTR tracks and a side door are not compatible, tracks would block the door from opening. When I inquired about that I was told that I would have to cut off the bottom of the door. Of course in a muddy environment the cab would end up filled with mud.
I think that the CTL has a different door compared to the SSL. However, I would guess by looking that the ingress/egress out of the CTL cab isn't anymore convenient compared to other OEMs. The ingress/egress out of the JCB SSL is much easier, but the bottom of the door extends down below the line that would represent an OTT steel track.
I think that your observations are very generalized and short sighted, unfortunately Dave. There are numerous differences and positives / negatives to each manufacturer's designs. By your blanket statement there would be no discernable difference between the Deere and (previously offered) New Holland lift design and say a Cat or say Case vertical lift? Not even close, each having different characteristics and appeal to different buyers. Just one of dozens of possible examples. The more posts you make, the more obvious it becomes that you are not familiar with the machines you choose to comment about. All Bobcats's are pressurized? Never ran a pressurized S185 or any other non-M Series (less than 1/2 of the lineup at this point).
Yes. The thread title is "skid steers", that's what I was responding to, not CTLs.
Gotcha. I'd like to be enlightened on how the new JCB skids do work with OTTs.
Get used to it :Banghead While I enjoy Dave's enthusiasm, he doesn't seem to offer the specifics to support his assertions beyond broad brush statements. I too was unaware that I was selling pressurized Bobcat cabs for those almost 9 years of selling.
k45, that's what I thought, but wasn't sure....to clarify the OTT discussion on JCB's.... The prior models (series I and II Robots) did offer a door kit which essentially was the CTL door and some panels that covered up the opening remaining at the bottom. Obviously, this kinda defeated much of the benefit of the side entry. Although the safety factor of not ever having to climb under a raised boom still remained, as did the visibility. For the Next Gen. machines, they have eliminated this option all together. For better or worse, we cannot do OTT's. Now, on our factory CTL's, I will say that I would disagree with the above comment that they aren't any easier to get in and out than a standard skid over the bucket. The Next Gen. models have a suicide door, so you are stepping on the low side of the track, and they have also added an actual welded step to the undercarriage frame (which seems fairly insignificant, but makes a world of difference). As such, they are quite easy to get in and out of, and still provide unmatched safety and visibility. For the record, I FINALLY received my first Next Gen. model Wednesday night (a 260 Wheel, Cab, A/C, 2spd, Hi-flow), and I can honestly say that I am down right impressed. I haven't been able to do much with the machine since it is brand spankin' new, but I did throw and old bucket on it and do some bucket loading/lifting exercises with it in grade 8 and road mill (not sure if that is the correct term?) and it has impressive pushing and break-out forces. I'll be updating with full results once we get them out on demos to customers, but I am very optimistic at this point.
What is the sticker price on something like that??
well sometimes people seem to put words in my mouth. obviously i was not talking about the old school bobcats when i was talking about the pressurized cab, and i assume everyone knows i know that. i hardly acknowledge that the non m models even exist, and am not happy the whole line has not been replaced yet; im not aware of any model ever that has been more dated, besides maybe the chevy astro van, but that was still sweet when they discontinued it. (that statement was a bit of an exaggeration just so ppl know) people say i don't know the differences between all the models. i know the differences. you cant run over the tire tracks with a jcb, that is what the ctl is for, unless you want to dukes a hazzard through the door. (that was a joke and not sure it would even work) i wish skid steers were tested at the nebraska tractor test laboratory as tractors are, so that fuel efficiency and performance arguments could be proven. either way it is well documented that if you run a diesel slower you get more efficient operation. generally belts are an efficient way to transfer power. again, i dont really care about this argument because many factors come into play. if i drove a jcb i imagine i would hate it because it does not have bobcat controls. (im aware this is a sarcastic contradiction) i dont see me making my way to the jcb dealer any time soon, times are getting busy on the farm. i could get into specifics, but that would be a lot of extra work, dont worry the info to back up all my claims is there, but i already write a lot on my posts. by the way, im looking into purchasing a japanese mini truck. i think it would fit in well with my exotic equipment strategy, along with my strategy of getting things done way cheaper than other people. anyone know any interesting info on the skid steer forum? obviously the subaru sambar supercharged model would be the most desirable. perhaps i will open another can of worms. i really dont see how anyone can justify buying a new skid steer. seems to me buying 2 used ones would put more money in your pocket when it was all said and done.
it is a statement for bobcat that they are still selling a 13 year old machine like hot cakes. the sweet and slow case vertical boom does not exist any more. otherwise you got 2 school of thoughts for your vertical boom. the underhand approach, kubota, bobcat, cat, terex, jcb believe it or not. and the overhand approach, new holland, new case, deere. unless you are breaking you boom arms in half, i really dont see why you would care which vertical boom you have in these 2 categories. i have always had a problem with the big black whatever it is on the cat sticking out past the back of the machine and up so high, seems like it would work great for demolition projects, looks like terex thought so too.
I guess ill throw fuel on the fire, bobcat would be without a doubt the last skidsteer i would buy for sure and the rest of them differ greatly the only two ive ever owned were case and cat but ive spent hundreds of in NH, deere, bobcat and ASV/terex belonging to generals that i sub for or rentals . The only similar machines i would agree to are deere/NH and some parts of CAT/ASV other than that they are worlds apart. And quit harping about your stupid pressurized cab, every bobcat i ever ran had a bent up rusty *** door that would barely bungy shut let alone latch and seal and it went along good with there jerky *** controls , noisy pumps ,drive motors ,stalling out damn engines and seesawin rocking back and forth out of balance heavy assend design . There just giving dave back a little of what he gives out nearly everyday
seen and heard of jcb's causting more for parts aswell, and that stupid brittish pipe thread, dunno if its a big deal for them anymore but it sure turned me off of the excavators. Every manufacturer has a advantage but its like a car take one for a drive and sort through the BS yourself. I belive they would all make you money !
I couldn't agree with that more! Let somebody else take the beating of buying new. I have never bought any equipment new. Probably never will either.
You're right deeretime i just wanted to get dave all roud up . truth is they're all pretty good , none are perfect some are just farther developed than others
These newest gen machines are no longer BSP. Most of the machine is built with US sourced parts to lower parts pricing.
hey now, generally i dont attack people when i am discussing matters. i feel like most of the time im respectful in stating my opinion. i have only gotten worked up when people who have no idea about anything bash on the new jcb skid steer when they literally dont even know it exists. at least i am pretty informed when i make statements. actually even tho i feel like i am pretty rough with my machines, sometimes i dont know how it is even possible for some people to have their machines beat up as much as they do. my bobcat has 8000 hours on it, has been covered in manure its entire life, and besides most of the paint being gone, it is like a new one yet. i think i had to throw a couple door seals on it over the years, and had to replace the door once because i let the neighbor use it. what is wrong with demanding a pressurized cab? it is 2011, what else would you have? i usually wear hearing protection while in the skid steer, quiets all the pumps right down. until now all skid steers have been too loud to safely run all day without hearing protection anyway. i dont know why you would ever stall the engine, its a hydro. i dont see how skid steer controls could be more smooth than my bobcats, i can make the drive as smooth or rough as i want. (i could see maybe if you were a beginner) ic i was cruising through the cow yard 7 miles an hour with the bucket and a cow decided to stick its nose out of a window just ahead of me. because of my sweet bobcat controls i was in full reverse instantly. i would suspect with many of the other control setups i would have sheared my cows nose right off. actually about 15 years ago before i had such an open mind, i drove an 1845c. i drove it for 60 seconds loading liquid manure and got out before i dumped my first bucket. i never experienced anything like it. uncontrollable. i suspect i would do better these days. is anyone entering into the case/new holland skid steer driving competitions? i would be more confident i would win if i was in my bobcat. skid steers are a rough ride, there is no way around that, that is y i hate them.
Just giving you a hard time dave , it was meant to to be taken more funny than serious i dont really care what brand people want to own . My only two real complaints about bobcats were the foot controls and the engine stalling so easily when under an sudden load i know they've changed control options but dont know about stalling i haven't ran a bobcat since 05 it was a new like 2 hrs on it new S185 turbo that stalled horrible when you were just getting buckets of topsoil out of a pile , you really had to be quick to let off the sticks . My old 1845C was probably stalled out 5 times in the 7 years i had it that S185 stalled probably 20 times in one day and it wasnt me i had been operating since 98 a friend of mine has a 863 like a 97-98 model thats just as bad it would have to be hard on pumps and the engine especially since everyone forgets to to throttle down and restarts at full throttle.
Engines, pumps, drive motors, loader valves, joysticks and associated components???
This reminded me, I found it alittle odd that JCB is using pilots in these new machines, but according to the JCB guy I spoke with at Con Expo they are switching to E/H next year. Maybe he was incorrect, but it would seem to be odd to have the first year of the new series to be pilots and then use E/H from there on out? JCBgm is this correct?
ah, alrite. so i looked at the case dimensions, and they are 4 inches longer than our bobcat, so a case will not fit in the barn. and whats with new holland and case being 70/30 split now? i see that the comparative gehl skid steer is a full foot shorter than the case/new holland, how do they do that? jcb is going with pilots this year, and eh next year. has something to do with emissions. i assume they wanted to make sure the first machines were good, and give them some more time to do research on the eh. i dont think there is any brand using exclusively US built Engines, pumps, drive motors, loader valves, joysticks and associated components... i have been running bobcats for 20 years and probably have stalled it 20 times total. i feel retarded when i stall my machine.
So 4" is the difference between making it into a barn and not making it into the barn. Really 4"? Guess you better hang on to your wore out BC cause the M's seem to be longer as well. Gehl has been running their E series for years now. I would imagine they will need to make changes to their chassis to meet the next tier requirement like BC and CNH have done. I understand the need for E/H by JCB. I just find it unusual to develop a new machine with pilots then dump them after a year and go to E/H. You now have to support 1 years worth of pilot controlled machines and the subsequent E/H machines. It would seem to be more logical and cost effective to release the new machine with E/H to start with. I am sure JCB has their reasons, I am just curious as to what they are. Perhaps the control system is a complete carry over from the last series .
My thoughts exactly. You might be disappointed when the new M series replaces the S185.
Yes, 2012 JCB will have selectable E/H controls....I asked the same question: Why not put them on when the new models were released??? No one really gave me a straight answer. Like you said, I'm sure they had their reasons. I can say that the current Pilot controls are very responsive and very smooth....and even their old series pilots were good too, so maybe it was just a carry over part???
i assume when the jcb smaller frames come out, they will be eh right off the bat? the jcb skid steer was previously very short, so im confident the new one will be a 60/40 split would be nice too. i would be surprised if bobcat messed with their dimensions. i think by moving the cab forward they can gain quite a bit of room. i think the 650 is the same length as the 873 was, and it lifts more. who voted for these people mandating emissions requirements? honestly, look at what is going on in the rest of the world, i think we have reached the point where the laws of diminishing returns has kicked in. spend the billions in other countries where it would actually make a significant difference on the environment if you want to waste money. every new skid steer we have purchased over the years has been 4 inches longer than the previous one. at some point it just wont fit anymore. i looked today at the space i have. the case is 2 inches narrower than a normal bobcat so maybe by the time you got turned around it might do it, one would have to get one out here. the small deere we tried a few year back didnt even come close. if it really came down to it i guess we could keep our 185 and then get a frame size larger for the new one. it would be inefficient and a pain though.
You would be hard pressed to find many people outside of some tree huggers, and the EPA who would disagree. The initial Tier requirements I personally think had value up to tier 2. After the low hanging fruit was picked, it has done nothing but cost everyone from the equipment and truck OEMs to the general consumer money as the costs for this has trickled down to the cost of the items on the shelves. The EPA is way too powerful.
It doesn't have anything to do with reason, or the environment. It's about control.
haha. are we allowed to discuss politics on the skid steer forum? what about donald trump running for president?
I dunno if we're allowed to discuss politics here...but I will mention that all of the political stuff going on these days caused me to rig up a mount and power supply for my Android phone in my 246A. Now I have 3G net access and streaming radio in my skid steer. Heh.
HEF is a politics free zone.
Ha Ha!!! I will vote for the radio but you can keep the phone and internet. My pea brain is overloaded with emails and the phone ringing all day...... My old flip phone gives me an excuse to be disconnected, at least a little bit!:bash
It's not a well known fact and it makes no sense; however, AED was a strong lobbying force for the more stingent Tier IV requirements.
what is not a well known fact, and what makes no sense? and what is the AED? and how do we get rid of them? this is clearly out of my realm of skid steer expertise... i noticed the local new holland dealer was selling new 1800 lb new holland skid steers (218s i believe) with air conditioning for 27500. i didnt think that was just too bad. load it down and you will be up to 34k tho. interestingly case does not have a 2000 lb machine like new holland does. (3k more)
Dave I believe your mistaken on that. Case has the new SR200 which is a radial lift machine and which has a lifting capacity of 2000lbs.
Associated Equipment Distributors (AED)...imagine all the new machines that need to be sold because you can't buy used ones, especially once everyone adopts the same clean air policies that CA and IL have.
I think NH gets the short end of the stick, the SR200 has the bigger motor but is more of a 'midsize' machine. NH doesn't have the bigger motor in the midsize machines from what I saw? From the specs I looked at the SR200 is basically the same as the 430/440 machines but is around 5" longer. The good with Case/NH is the volume which should help them be more competitive on pricing.
Nice, screw us over once we've invested our money in equipment...
By what my salesman says the case machines are very competitive in price, and yes the SR200 is the same as the 430 and the cabs are huge, they say 25% larger and after getting in them I would say thats about right.
Hehe...yeah, there is that problem. Can't get any work done if I spend all day screening, answering, and returning phone calls. So....I don't. I disable all notifications when I'm operating...except for a select few. The phone will ring if it's a co-worker on the same jobsite as me, or the Bossman. But really, I'm surprised at myself for not setting this up earlier. Now that the phone is there in front of me in the machine while I'm operating, other uses keep occuring to me. We work in heavily wooded and/or remote areas, very rugged terrain with no flagging, fencing, or other markers. The GPS and compass functions of the phone have finally been put to profitable use! Hehe... So basically my phone is connected in every possible way...except for the actual "phone" way. All data, no people. Eheh.
sweeeeeeet:d