guys i know it's a bit of a one way street, but I'm out in the middle of Western Australia at the moment in a very remote part of the world. The steering on my old 1972 cat d5 has locked up on the right hand side. I've pulled the rear inspection plates off and can't see anything obvious. I'm guessing linkages somewhere but all seems fine and operating normally. IN short, any other ideas?..recovery out here is a tad expensive!...thanks in advance.
I would start by looking at your right final drive.
If it is not a case of lost adjustment and you do see linkage movement but the clutch pac won't release I'd be checking for a failed (collapsed) clutch release bearing....not uncommon....or a busted clutch release yoke....less common. Niether one fun when in the Bush!!!!!
Please elaborate, locked up as in right side won't move or locked up brake won't function? jr
Mate Call Kevin Ward, CQ Dozer Services on 07 4933 3657. He has vast experience in remote repair on older units. He'll talk you through this OK. Tell Wayne sent you. firetrack
guys, thanks for your reply's. Firetrack...I'll make that call. I've raised the machine on it's blades and rippers and then engaged forward and reverse. left track runs fine...no movement out of right track..maybe an inch or so at best. Cant see any obvious problems with tracks/rollers and looking through rear inspection panels it seems that both steering compartments are functioning ok. My best guess at this stage is final drive. My wife and I prospect for a living and use the old girl to scrape away surface alluvials and detect for gold nuggets. I took some photo's on a digital camera and was planning to show you what we do as a bit of appreciation for some of my questions being answered in the past...I like to keep the ledger square where poss. When I get this all sorted out I'll post some pics and it'll show you new ways to loose money that I bet you hadn't even thought of!!!!...thanks again
Those old D5's (same as early D6 back ends) are fairly famous for busting an intermediate shaft which disconnects the final drive. I'd be more suspect of that than the finals but anything is possible.
mate, Please don't start a "mines better than yours" post of how to lose money with machinery!! I already know how to do that and if you show me more ways I'll probably only try them to prove I know better but really don't in the long run, Good luck with your back end. Have you drained any oils and if so did you lighten up the machine with any metal in the oil - never a good message. regards Firetrack
To rotate the track with the tractor airborne, takes near no power, you can turn a track by hand useing the brake drum flange with no steering clutch bolted in, so I would tend to think its inside the final drive, if it makes the engine load up it will be more than positive in this area, D5s have only the 2 gear final drives fitted, top pinion large bull gear plus 4 bearings is all you should find, if the brake band had set free or wraped it self into some new shape it would move one way?? if the engine does not load up just the track fails to turn it could be the splines stripped on the flanges, it is possible for the cross shaft bolts to possibly jamb up on something but I would think this would be a first,it is posible to strip out the final drive without pulling the sprocket, but you would have to remove the outer bearing carrier, this can be done without any fancy kit, but lets see how things shape up your end. think good things at all times tctractors
Seems pretty easy to check if you have the tracks in the air. With the engine running and in gear apply the RH brake (steering clutch engaged). If the engine doesn't load then the break is upstream of the steering clutches/brake.
righto...dozer's been recovered and as the truck was driving out the rain starts. Now we're in a fairly remote and rains not a good thing when it comes to getting bogged. Couple of inches later (and four days) and we're still here! Prob take about a week to dry out enoughto try and get out .....back to town and back to fixing dozer. Another question for the knowledgable, I noticed that comming up through the right hand steering brake there was a constant pulsing when you pushed down with your foot...I can't describe it better in words...but it was almost as though the drum around which the brake bands sat not running true and so it pushed back against the bands and this came back up through the linkages...it was a constant pulsing...if that makes sense. I have my theory on this (collapsed tapered bearing) but interested if anyone can decipher what I mean and shed any light. Thanks again for help...firetrack...Kevin was great...he was obviously flat out but took 10 min out of his day to help a complete stranger...my kinda guy.
That's exactly what happens if you break the intermediate shaft....you lose support (and drive) for the steering clutch assy. The bearing support runs from the crown gear shaft through the intermediate shaft with the outer support being the inner pinion bearing. Yes, these bearing can fail but the shaft/flange is a known culprit.
ok...I may be jumping the gun here untill I can pull stuff apart....i'm making some assumptions... but it may be exactly the same problem that happened to the previous owner some 50 hours ago. If so....is there anything that you can think of that would cause this to happen a second time?...other than excrement can happen?
These things come to mind: How hard are you pushing the tractor? Were the parts replaced with repo or original? What was the condition of the mating parts? Were the proper tools and press fit loadings used on assembly?
not hard dont know dont know dont know but gives me food for thought....old magnet....if you were a few thousand miles closer i'd buy you a beer or two..thanks.
Overnight Flash!!! When your in there be on the look out for anything that would affect the three component alignment (pinion flange/intermediate shaft/crown gear shaft) Get a runout check of all three, any hogged out bearing bores, flange runout etc. Believe I'll have them beers anyway....good luck.
ok, I thought I'd put up the diagnosis on here as you never know, it may help someone else. I know some of my terminology's wrong as I'm only a bush mechanic at best. I've stripped down the offending back end final drive. There is a flange assembly that is bolted onto the steering clutch assembly and splinned into this is a 10 tooth pinion. there is a bearing holding up each end of this pinion, one "midships" in the tractor chassis itself and the other end/bearing being in a cast hole in the final drive housing itself. The problem was simply that the spline in the flange assembly was stripped out..therefore...no drive. Now when I looked back along the line, what has happened after 40 years is that the bearing that sits inside the final drive housing has worn and there would be prob a couple of mm of slop...hence...seals keeping the brake compartment dry failing....wobbles in the drum and pulsing through the steering brake peddle and obviously enough play for that spline to poop itself. Interestingly I decided to pull the other side apart and have found the same wear in the same spot inthe final drive housing. So....the course of action is.....I'll find an engineering shop that can bring that slot for the bearing back up to spec...I guess it'll be a machine and sleeve???? All new bearings and seals for both sides....new flange assembly from USA for original problem side. New 10 tooth pinion both sides and all new seals. Even though we're dam near broke...I've found the cost of these parts not too horrific.....we've had to go classic rather than original..can anyone explain the differance???....my only question left is that on each side there is a big 49 tooth gear that is really the only part I would be leaving in....now one side has had some damage.....maybe 10% on the edges?...the other side seems ok but there is some minor pitting on the surface.....these two gears are over aud$760 each and will mean we wont be able to eat again....almost ever!.....I'm interested in peoples opinions...should I or shouldn't I...hard when there's no photo's I know. Thanks again for your help.
without seeing the gears I'd be leaving them in, for the work you have got planned for the machine to do it should be ok, glad that you've found the root cause of the failure, far too often people fix the symtom or failure, not the real problem causing the issue any tricky machining work click here Mike at MJS in wangara is pretty good value
Sounds all to familiar......line boring and bushing is the right recovery. Cat "Classic" parts are aftermarket that supposedly meet Cat's specifications but history has not been kind on heavy drive parts. Key item on salvaging the problem side bull gear is what the wear pattern looks like. If it is uniform accross the teeth it can probably be reused. If not, due to the misaligned wear it will rapidly wear a new pinion. Good used would be an option.
The Cat classic parts are as OM has already said aftermarket parts that you can buy from many outlets that dont have the big CAT price, the flange for the brake drum is pressed onto the top pinion, the top pinion bearings are pin located on the outer race with a dowl held in by a small cap plug to get the outer race from inside of the final drive cover without unbolting the cover will be a dog of a task, I would unbolt the complete cover and remove with the sproket still pressed on the hub, you will have to undo the dead shaft nut and pop off the outer hub carrier after removing the T/Frame, this will give you a good chance to check the bull gear and bearings. tctractors
Hi Tc...have done that to both sides...final drive housings off...pulled the clutch packs from both sides etc etc....pretty much stripped it right down....recovering the machine from where we work costs a lot and in fact not far off the parts I'll need to buy....so I'd rather do this once, well thats the plan anyways!. So the top pinion will need to be pressed back onto the flange assembly...that'll have to happen on the trqctor itself wont it?....I could get the bull gear shaft pressed back on elsewhere I think but It looks like I'll need someone to come out for the little one. Anyone out there that can give me a quick heads up about fitting those duo cone seals?..any tricks I need to look out for?
With the F/Drive cover removed it might well be possible to press up the flange to the top pinion outside the steering case then fit it in as 1 lump of iron, this can be done on a few CATs like D8's easily with the cover in place, its not the cover that causes the jamb its the bull gear, so assemble your scrap pinion and flange with the bearing housing and see if you can throw it in, I have done a good few of these little tractors but I have all the kit so I dont struggle " only getting paid", also check your dead shafts to make sure the key slot is at the top (12 o clock), it might be also worth checking the bevel gear cross shaft bearings, its the left hand bearing that knackers up, this allows the transmission pinion that is floating to travel out of kilter (to far) causing damage to the bevel gear etc, so you want no movement l-r on the cross shaft, shims sort this item out but you need a clear head so keep off the beer the night before, it is possible to press up the sprocket to the hub with the case chucked on, off the tractor in a workshop press, then you throw it all up in a large lump, its best to use lining up pins /long bolts as a help and pack the rollers for the top pinion bearing with heavy grease pushing them up to give every help in fitting onto the pinion stub,the Duo-cone seals are easy to poke in place, with the rubber bit on the steel bit, place it into the location and poke it home with a 3/8 long extension bar or a blunt old screwdriver, there is some fancy installer for this but I dont use one (not ever), finaly dont over press things together, on old crap its best to keep on the low side of the tonnage target else things might crack. tctractors
can you replace a fly wheel ring gear on a d5 without removing the engine? 96j
This is a very easy task on a D5, remove the 4 rubber drive couplers and keep on unbolting things till you hit the flywheel, check the location of the flywheel to crank (mark it with tippex) it is marked but it makes things easy,whip off the flywheel and remove the ring, a good hammer is handy for this task, clean up the location and get your new ring handy to the flywheel and check the way it has to be fitted as this little detail seems to get over looked, then its just a matter of heating up the ring and throwing it on the flywheel quickly it will contract fast so prepair the job well, then bolt it all together and check out the starter dog, the fly wheel task is best done from underneath the tractor so drive it up on some timber to save some pain, oh and it will need the back belly pan knocking down to get you head into the best spot, I would suggest that gloves are a good bet when you heat up the ring. tctractors
Test
54j, If your going to be mixing and matching used, new Cat and unknown internationl parts be sure to follow a good set of specs. closely. Especially the splined pressed hubs so that none bottom out beyond the gap recommended for the retaining nuts. Not a bad idea to back off a little on the press fits as tc recommends. Coupling together a three component shaft is always a red flag design wise and in this case the steering clutch doubles as a flex coupling to absorb an inevitable bit of misalignment. Also take up the topic of replacing the retaining dowels for the bearing races with whoever you contract with for the align boring. May be worth a conversation with local bearing supply house to see if an oversize or next size race can be utilized with the standard cone. Good luck, keep us posted.
righto...I broke the bad news to the boss (wife) and have decided to replace the bull gear both sides. Back to baked beans for us! (not the first time....wont be the last) My logic being trying to mesh new pinion with worn 40 year old damaged bull gear was bound to fail eventually. Will have to get local cat dealer to press fit bits together..in my book I've got the pinion to flange listed as 25-30 ton and sprocket to hub as 35-40 ton. When you say press on the lighter side..are we talking 10% or what? OM I dont quite understand what you mean about 'bottoming out beyond the gap recommended'...like I said..I'm a hack and a bit beyond my depth here!!!..In the service manual I've got for example where it lists the tonnage for the press fit it's also got the distance after the fit...ie istance-flange face to pinion shoulder after flange to pinion press fit of 25-30 ton .12+ - .03in. How critical are these gaps? If I'm getting Cat to press these parts up and give them these figures will they press up to them? Most parts arrive here on Tuesday and one bull gear next weekend......the fun begins. I've taken a few photo's and if I can work out how to post them I will.
Well, your going to have a fair investment there but done right it should last you a very long time. Seems your are on to the specs that I was concerned about. You have four splined press fits to deal with (depending on how far you have it tore down. All four have the same offset or protrusion dimension specs after press fitting at 0.120 +/- 0.003. This is ideal and it can be less but if any of the hubs travel up the splines to where there is no protrusion dimension they are unlikely to hold. This is where I was referring to "bottoming out" The four splined fits are 1. The coupling flange to bevel gear shaft at 20 - 25 Ton. (This pressing needs to be done on the tractor) 2. Steering clutch shaft to steering clutch hub at 15 - 20 Ton. 3. Pinion flange to pinion at 25 - 30Ton. 4. Sprocket to sprocket hub at 35 - 40 Ton. As far as backing off of the press fits it is the smaller hubs that are a concern as they have been known to split. If your having Cat handle the press work they should know to do this. Otherwise I would use 18 - 20 Ton on the coupling flange, 12-15 ton on steering clutch hub and 20 - 25 ton on the pinion flange. The sprocket is good at the 35-40 ton. All press fits are dry. Great to see someone committed to doing the job right, hope all goes well for you. tc if your reading this please comment on the press loadings or anything else as your the one that does this for a living.
G'day OM...it's the last two press fits only I'm doing....I haven't disassembled anything near the bevel gear....thanks for explaining that..it all helps. With the bull gear there was a choice of original at just over $2200.00 (plus freight) or the 'cat classic' at 760.00 plus freight plus gst (10%)...three guess's which one I took???? Trying to do the job as best I can with limited resources, out here the recovery is a big killer and at over $2000.00 a pop I'd rather try and get it right. Again thanks and I'll try to get some picks up.
Kind of thought you would go that way, I'd probably do the same. If the fits are good that's about all you can do, the rest is out of your control. How bad is the elongated bearing bores?? The inner bearing cage can be replaced, hopefully the cage has not come loose from its bolting and wallowed out the hole in the main case. How is the outer bearing bore?
Inner one is good...replacing bearings just to be sure and start off new throughout. It's the outer one that was the real problem on both sides. Where the bearing slots into the final drive housing (cast)this hole has worn and the bearing had prob 2-3mm of movement and like I said before I reckon this is what started all the problems. In the process of taking the housings around to a couple of engineer shops and seeing what they can do...getting this bit right is the real priority of the whole job. Go to bed.
Yair...hey guys is it not possible to side for side the bullgears? It's been along time but I seem to remember I could be done on some tractors...obviously it gives a better surface on the drive side.
54j, old magnet has all the spec's bang on (as usual) with the same thoughts on the press up, nothing worse than following the book to the letter only to find that you damage something by taking things to the high end of the listing, so in my language, as long as the inner spline bit does not come through the outer spline bit you are in with a chance, the nut or bolt has to have a tension effect on the goods, I think on the outer covers to the F/Drives its just the red gunge that is used as a joint (I might be wrong??) if it is coat both faces then fit together, if it has a gasket do not use anything else just the gasket, only use the CAT red gunge dont use silicone anything on this joint, as it will not stay within the joint face and leak like a busted fridge. tctractors
Thanks tc. 54j, Reminds me of the point tc brought up earlier about checking the bevel gear shaft bearings. This needs to be done to assure a successful repair, as well as a check of the bevel gear and pinion backlash. There needs to be zero lateral movement of the bevel gear shaft. Get a prybar in there along with a dial indicator setup if you have one and check it out.....now is the time. Backlash range is 0.009 to 0.016 in. Pictures would be nice but they really aren't that useful for checking the minute stuff. Scrub Puller, That is a possibility for extending usefull life if the teeth are worn evenly and the backlash is reasonable. The sort of thing that is done to complete a job or bring on the "For Sale" sign.
after a busy few weeks...all is well. New pinions, bull gear, bearings/races,all seals bolts and some other shiny bits. Took him for a test yesterday and low and behold he handles like a new tractor! Everything working as it should and tight as a drum. Back to work out in the middle of nowhere tomorrow and hope like blazes we can turn up enough gold to pay for it all!! Thanks to all here who have helped..it was appreciated.
Thanks for the response...was kind of wondering how it all went, glad to hear your back in operation.
i am new and dont know how to post on here but maybe someone can help me out? i have a 1968 cat d5 dozer 93j373 and the right track is not turnning anymore! when i pull the lever usually you have to pull the lever and step on the brake for it to steer but now you just pull the lever and no longer have to step on the brake pedal for the side lever you pull! a mechanoc told me he thinks the steering cluchs teeth got striped off is there a way to tell or to replace them? anyone able to help me out?