I purchased a Galion crane about a month ago that I have been restoring blind, (working on getting some manuals) but I had ordered a replacement starter for the old International engine ( oddly they had one listed for the crane at rate electric when I ordered it, but not now,)the starter I got is s physical match ,but only spins the engine around 8 rpms off a 1000 CA batt. Did these cranes use a starter different from the ones used on other applications due to the pump being constantly driven off the crank, and would anyone happen to have the proper part number for one of those? (Preferrably a gear reduction type Right now I'm on the edge of starting this beast, but, it's just not spinning fast enough to fire. ( it had actually been sort of running before the old starter melted down, so I know it can do it, it just needs a faster starter) Thanks, Robert
Check the new starter tag, it may be 24 volt instead of 12?
I was halfway wondering if the original starter was 24v (since the numbers ,"24" show up at the end of the part number, but I found no evidence of a series+parallel switch anywhere, so unless they just run 24v into a resistor to get 12 to the coil, or a 24v coil I don't know about and everything is wired wrong... I'm all ears on this one.. Including as to what engine for sure this pre historic 125 ( I know for sure now it is a 125 ¡has in it. This one is so old it doesn't have a cab, the delco ignition dates between 1933-56 Thanks
I thinks Lantraxco is saying make sure the replacement starter is not 24 volt as that would be the most logical reason for it turning so slow even could have been mis boxed Komatsu adsorbed Galion I know RMS in Shokopee MN had some parts information but not much available
Also, you say the old starter melted down... depending on how this went you may have other wiring issues now or maybe something else is not quite right that contributed to the first starter demise... How about some pics or at least a wiring diagram of how things are setup. Ps. we have had brand new starters appear to go bad when a brush sticks and slows it down to a crawl, have you tried giving it a few gentle whacks to the end with the brushes...
If you don't have the manuals, contact Aryhead in our forums .....he's top notch. I'd also call Contractor Cranes in Houston Texas.....they've supplied me with almost every OEM part I've been in need of (they'll have the specs on your starter, likely have one on the shelf).
I finally got some manuals in and I brought the old starter to my old faithful rebuilder of the last 25+ years and found a few things. The starter was WAY wrong for the engine, , along with some broken parts inside. He's redoing it in a hi torque 24v configuration ( and if that doesn't do it, I've found a gear reduction 24v that will fit the thing . I also found it was supposed to have a 4d-lt batt, one of those industrial monsters with both terminals on the same end and a 270 reserve capacity even the 1000 CA truck batt I have in there has about half the reserve capacity, in my experience with large engines, that number generally makes the difference between start or no start., needless to say, I'm rigging up for a total of 4 of those 1000 CA batts ( 2pairs running through a series parallel switch) with that setup I ough to be able to run down the road at 20 mph on the starter On a more serious note, I found a number of wires with heavily corroded ends to the point of inducing large resistance, a half cooked fusable link on main power line ( my manual shows a circuit breaker but it doesn't go back quite as far as mine it starts at 2985 and I have 1186, thankfully they changed very little, I replaced the wires and installed a panel breaker) direct shorts on old lines that were hard drawing current every time the switch was opened. Quite frankly it was a miracle this thing ran at all when I bought it At least I was finally able to match the engine for sure, I got an IH 264-6 manual and it was a hit!, only drawback is the manual was written for combines etc and no information on how to line up timing marks on that critter... But this too shall pass
Specs on Crane?
If this is a 264 cubic inch gas engine, that's not a large engine. It should start on any battery that will start a Yugo. It sounds like you're complicating things way more than you need to.
Engine isn't very big, but I has a massive 2 stage hydraulic pump permanently attached to the front of the crank. When adjusting the valves with plugs out on that engine you can normally turn I with the fan like most, no dice with this beast it's trying to push insane gallons of fluid through the system at the same time, have to turn it with the starter, even with plugs out. My neighbor has worked with a lot of heavy equipment for years and he told me any he ran across wih that pump setup were a beast to start and generally had hefty 24v systems.my starter rebuilder concurred, although he said he split 6-12 v systems with huge batts were also very effective
Unless it's down near freezing you should not have that much drag from the pumps. Guessing it's an open center system, most likely suspect would be a valve spool not centering due to sticking or something loose or weak in the centering springs.
Have you disconnected the crank from the pump? (Take about 10 mins, 8 socket head cap screws on the U joint). Once disconnected, you should be able to spin the pump by hand with little resistance. If you're having trouble with the starter on a gas engine....getting enough RPM...separate the pump and engine. My 150a is 12v.....I'm not sure they made any of the older cranes (Model 80, 125 or 150) with 24v. When Komatsu bought them out, they may have converted to 24v. Does the multi gauge in the indicator panel show this for you? Mine only went to 12v.
According to rebuilder, aparant problem is starter is supposed to be a high torque type, but neither the one on it or the replacement sold for it met those requirements, , armature was tiny compared to one that went in it, fresh starter weighs darn near twice as much ( just picked it up) well see what happens. My gauge panel is basically unreadable, I need to replace all gauges, , this thin is serial no 1186 best I can tell that makes it the 186th one off the line, there's a number of things on this one that are a tad more primitive than what is shown in the manuals
Been there brother....mine is #4510. Do you know the model? The ID tag is on the floor just left of the seat. Take some pictures of your machine and post here. There are a lot of Galion operators, "mechanics" in here....love to see these old beasts resurrected.
I don't think you'll be disappointed following the rebuilder's advice. I've heard the "high torque starter" story before, but it was always in such bizarre circumstances so I always chalked it up to too many drugs or something :beatsme I still say a 12V starter would work to start that engine, but maybe not any starter that will fit?
The rebuilder found marks on the starter that were from a boneyard. It likely came off a bus, and aparantly the high torque model is now unobtanium so he had to custom make one. There is a universal gear reduction job available in 12 or 24 v that hsas s head with multiple mounting holes..that's the next step , ( I hope I'm joking IIT actually started on the original one but it was fried inside)
Just found your starter....a little over $100. https://jet.com/product/detail/28ab...15&gclid=CJiolJzdmtACFcgLMgod62wHog&gclsrc=ds
That's the critter I bought from rareelectric ....,it has already burned up, I got half a dozen start attempts out of it. When I figure out how to upload pics from my phone you'll see the armature section is about 2 inches shorter than the original, and the rebuilder ended up rigging an armature that was about an inch or so larger in diameter and had to custom wind the coil to fit in the case. The thing weighs about twice as much as that one rare has.. I spent half the day making new wires yesterday to rig a series parallel switch till I ran out of light, about to go over and finish up and hopefully fire it. . ( it's been over 30 years since I've fooled with a S-p switch, it's a blast wiring one up cold with lousy instructions)
Wow! Have you bar'd the engine over to see if there is an issue with it? I would definitely disconnect the Crank shaft from the pump....see if either is causing an issue.
Well the fresh rebuilt starter spins that beast like a maniac. Only problem arose while trying to start, the ballast resistor got cooked from the excess amprage in the system, so back to Napa tomorrow for a heavy duty one. At least it's real close to running now.
No, the ballast resistor got cooked because the starter bypass is connected to it and was given her 24 volts while cranking? I think there will be a 12 volt tap coming off the S/P relay for that that's only hot when cranking but I can't swear to it.
Good thought, but I just double checked the wiring diagram I worked from and the resistor is getting.. Let me finish cooking this out before I eat my words.. Voltage from the battery hot from one... But you may be right when the switch engages, that puts that tap dead center between the two batts. Time to make some phone calls.
By the way, I had measured the voltage at the starter bypass on the solenoid on the starter and it was putting out a steady 12v ( and would have Fred right off if there hadn't been a bad connector on one end , which of course led to some fouled plugs... I think I'll buy a case of the things . remember the days when you could clean, dry out and stick plugs back in??
That doesn't make sense if you're bumping it to 24 volts on the main cable. Where would the starter get 12V? Heck yeah, we used to take our motorcycle plugs up to the only store in our little valley, they had gas and a small auto repair business on the side, the owner would stick our plugs in the sandblast cleaner and check them on the tester, which had air pressure to simulate compression and mirror at the bottom with a window so you could see the spark pattern. Yeehaw! LOL
Started coming down with nasty cold yesterday morning got a tad sideways . middle tap always gets 12v, but I found the error , fella was right delco instructions wrong, need to tap off #4 for 12v for starter bypass and need separate starter solenoid to switch the starter ( in other words pa paper came with switch and all subsequent pics on net wrong, finally found delco troubleshooting manual that shows proper setup, I probably fried my pertronix electronic ignition... Good thing I saved the points)
Crossing fingers, maybe the ballast resistor sacrificed itself quick enough to save the pertronix.....
Friend dropped by, we got it running with pump off, figures filter clogged. Fluid dirty and way too thick. Guess what I get to do $$$, not to mention plugged hydraulic tank vent
Glad you took pump off. If you need help, let me know....I went through much of what your dealing with while rebuilding the Galion 150a. P.s. Check that U joint the pump was connected to....mine was completely shot.
My friend knows his big unruly beasts. Hydraulic.filters 85+% externally clogged with goo. Fired it up and ran it for a good hour+ today my guess first time in years. It quit smoking and smoothed out nicely after a while, so I'm guessing the last two sets of rings are flexing now, has good strong idle, I honestly don't think the poor thing had been let up to operating temperature in ages I'll check that ujoint carefully, I brought it back to clean and hand pack with grease, I don't trust those zirk fittings that try to force grease all over creation, even with an air grease gun. We had a time getting it off, the little socket head bolts were overstressed , 2 of us taking turns over an hour ,needless to say, I bought new ones ( I still remember over 50 years ago when I asked my dad, an engineer, why Allen wrenches are always so short... Reason at time, so folks wouldn't overtighten things...somehow that gets lost on some folks
Finally got hydraulic tank drained today, probably first time in 30 years. About a half inch of muck on the bottom of each section, and screen so jammed up with crud, I ran out of cleaner and had to bring it home to clean it up. Good thing it was mentioned to look at that u joint, I thought it got fed grease from the zirk fitting on the collar, but those joints are greased on assembly, and sealed!,( I greased them at the open caps and pushed it through till it had greased at all points, old trick Having a bit of a time getting covers back on tank, going to get some studs tomorrow replace the short bolts.any luck at all it will be going in a couple of days.
Well as luck would have it, all that cranking was too much on the starter, cooked another, but not before getting the new hydraulic fluid through enough to free things up to where the engine can be turned by pulling on the fan now, a new gear reduction starter is on the way from rareelectric, ( part" 4149 gr-12v or 4149gr-24v if you want it in 24v, don't bother looking on website or attempting to call to order one, their phone people have no access to that number .I had to get it via email through their customer service guys, it's special order ) the picture looks like a real beast of a starter. They liked that one at 12v for this so I switched back and went to 3 group 31 batts, which will give me way more kick than 2 4d, and they fit nicely in the box on the right side. Any luck at all we will be whirling and spinning just right here shortly.
Starter was a bust. Rareelectric didn't bother telling the builder about the pumps and they built a gasser starter..good news I have contacted the builder, Imi performance as nd they are now working on one about 2.5-4 times stouter, full diesel rated that ought to be it ( the gasser one came close to spinning fast enough) if it works, I'll have him save the specs
3rd Starter? Post some pictures of machine.....a lot of knowledge in here to help, though with no pictures, blind proposition.
BobCatBob, I don't know what to say that I haven't said already. That doesn't make sense to me either, but then they do sound like cheap aftermarket starters so who knows? A genuine (Delco or Denso) should last just fine without the high torque, we're not talking about thousands of hours here.
He mentioned he disconnected the hydraulic pump off the front, the only resistance would be the engine and the torque converter off the back. If the filter on the torque converter is loaded, it will slow things down a bit. Without pictures or more detail, hard to help. He needs to call Contractors Crane out of Houston (Phil or Jake)....these guys had solutions that worked on every problem I had (and I think I've rebuilt or replaced every moving/wear item on my crane!).
The problem is Delco USED to make the original starter for this thing, , my local rebuilder knew about it and so did the guy building the custom job, problem is they discontinued making the big gear reduction starter with an offset for one where the starter mounts along the engine and only make the one for busses and such where starter is along trans, they are too long and would require major exhaust manifold mods . this absence of availability is likely why a number of people have put undersized boneyard starters on after a failure that and growing lack of decent rebuilder.
I called place mentioned and many others, starter is unobtanium in original form. Guy building custom one is sending it out on trial basis if it doesn't work I send it back, no cash. He wasn't too happy that rareelectric ordered a custom starter for me and didn't bother to tell him about the pumps on that thing, or he never would have sent the last one out.( unfortunately he's out of the loop on that one and only don't blame him at all, it'll go up on eBay someone with a IH travel all will get a good deal), I could try mail-order equipment boneyards for a core, but by now what I would likely end up with is more of what I already have.
Rldsl, I just sent an e-mail to Contractors Crane in Houston on your behalf. They'll likely have your starter and be able to troubleshoot your problem (they even had one of their mechanics call me when I was replacing the rubber support pads between the rear axle and frame.....those were a bitch). I purposely bought everything from them (all OEM or better) for the quality parts and help.....so as to not have to "rinse and repeat" as your going through now, it's frustrating....as none of this stuff is light (I think the starter is around 50 Lbs).
I would be curious to see if you get a different answer than I did when I called them. As in no go, salvage or rebuild. With my luck I could have got the new guy who is supposed to be stocking shelves and not touching the phone, a nd if they do come up with anything, real curious if it would be the same delco 1.3kw direct drive or clone that the entire rest of the world appears to ,( one that 2 starter experts 1 a rebuilder ive worked with for over 30 years and trust completely, he specializes in big truck and equipment starters and alternators )have told me wasn't the original, and would never start one of these )
At least new test starter arrived, I put it on and gave one quick spin, doesn't appear to bog down when the fluid hit the pumps, but it's been below freezing and that engine is cranky enough cold without the pumps attached, I'll wait until Wed for warmer weather to give a fair test fire
Has it been cranking fine for a bit until the "fluid hits the pumps", and then bogging down?
With the other starters, yes ,this one seemed to want to pull through, its about the same starter that is on my 92 ih 7.3 diesel ,just with an adapter )but since it's been down to 2 deg f last handful of nights and hasn't got above 30, I wanted to wait a few days for warmer weather to really try to fire it, heck even my Volvo's have been a bit cranky in this weather. Best to wait for better conditions for a proper test fire
Another thing I wanted to do before firing, is add an additional battery and run a separate circuit to the coil, as this new starter has such a whopper of a solenoid even switched through a switching solenoid ala Ford, delco heavy duty etc, it draws the voltage at the coil down too far ( most likely high resistance of prehistoric wires to the dash), but best to eliminate all variables, ID rather try s start with 12v at the coil , than 9
Should be a bypass terminal on the starter solenoid to feed the ignition coil with, straight off the battery until the starter kicks out.....
And yes, I have tested for this every step of the way, low coil voltage didn't happen till now.
This type starter ( nippindenso gear reduction) doesn't have a bypass circuit for ignition, only batt connection and solenoid trigger terminals, so I half expected to need another circuit., I figure best to run it off separate batt , juice goes to starter from main batts like a circuit wide open, ( path of least resistance) coil is by nature resistance and will get basically leftovers . easier to assure full voltage with separate batt.
I've also checked directly with delco, and the only starter they still make for Galion , fits a roller with a slightly different engine, and is only a 1.2kw direct drive, like everyone else. It's the same starter listed for a IH scout (and any IH app with a 264 engine), so like in most cases of catalog part number consolidation, it looks like delco killed the proper part first, then everyone else followed.
I had sent an email off to Contractors Crane as well just to see if I would get a different answer than I got on the phone. Well they worked on it for about a week and a half or so with updates, but came up with " discontinued " .he did send a picture of the original parts manual and that starter is much bigger than what was on it. Good news, custom builder is trying a shot at a 4.5 kW 24v job with a special offset to maximize gear reduction Since these starters are officially obsolete, I'm going to play guinea pig to help develop one that works
GREAT NEWS! IT LIVES! I owe Jack at IMI Performance , High Torque. ( www.hi torque.com ). a bunch. He has worked tirelessly with me on this project to get a workable starter , doing endless research through old delco specs and trying to com up with something that wood fit in there. What we have isca 4.5 kW 24v serious gear reduction uni tha spins the engine over just a tad faster than the idle speed. This s a Nippindenso style gear reduction starter ths particular unit weighs in at about 22 pounds On 29 Deg f day it fires right off cold , and even after an arduous day transporting back home on a less than ideal lowboy that required constant restarts, the starter never got hot I DD require a simple 24 v conversion with a series parallel switch, and runs off 4, group 31 batts that all fit nicely in the right side compartment ( just for giggles, and so the ignition wouldn't be subject to the usual voltage drop while cranking, I'm running the ignition off a separate bat in the compartment on he other side.)
Now that you have it starting good I'd reconnect, at least temporarily to the main battery system to see if there is any problem with voltage drop, if it spins over that good I don't think you will have a problem. I just hate extra non-essential electrical components and wiring.
You are correct, but I had earlier found the factory wiring going to and from the dash extremely corroded with with high resistance so, at least for now, it's a lot better off with its own circuits, until I have a chance to completely re- wire it from scratch with all new materials, but for now.... I'm beat .3 months of that beast kicking my hind end, it's time for a vacation I figure that'll last about a week before I'm fooling with it again,
Let's see some pictures of that beauty!