The machine is a 1976 Cat 980B. This machine was purchased new in 1976 and has not been altered in any way, shape or form since it was purchased. All warning indicators, alarms, lap belts, lights, operator manual and any other safety feature that originally came with the machine are in place and all in good working order. The only modifications to the machine are the working red stop lamps that even come on when either break pedal is applied. My question is...... by looking at the included pics, can anyone see anything that would render this machine unsafe?
Welding that tube - whatever it's for - on to the ROPS legs would do it for me in a heartbeat. I've removed ROPS Certification plates in the past for far less than that.
Like Nige said, you can not weld on the ROPS. That would require a letter from the machine builder, the blue prints, and the cert of the welder that did it. Then it would still be a act of congress to ok it. Even a twist or ding can take one out of service, along with a full fender on one side and a half on the other.
One day I will recount the full story of how I removed the ROPS & Cab Certification Plates from 2 brand-new zero-hour D10R's (t'was a few years ago now) BEFORE the customer even had chance to get them in the dirt ............
Don't see anything unsafe Pete . So what's the story ? Did they write you some kind of warning ? Machine out of service over a canister welded to the rops ?
MSHA is very stringent about unauthorized modifications to any ROPS. As soon as you cut, weld, or drill a ROPS w/o 1" thick binder of approvals you have rendered the ROPS unsafe in MSHA's eyes.
I bet you were popular with the boys
While I understand that is the rules, per the almighty MSHA, I can't seem to grasp in my mind how the little bit of welding done there has done anything to make the structure unsafe or unsound. I have seen severely butchered ROPS, and am quite sure that the rules are in place to prevent them from being used, but to decertify a machine over a fire extinguisher mount, light bracket, or some other minor add on just seems wrong to me. Why can there not be a written exception for non structural items that obviously do not affect the strength and integrity of the unit? This is one more example of how "Safety" has gone from a way to keep you safe and transformed into a way for those in charge to keep a boot on your neck.
I'm sure its because of improper or unknown welding precedures often used. How many times have you seen a structural crack or break next to a weld that was added or next to a previous fix. An MSHA inspectoris not going to make the determination if the procedure was done correctly or not.
There's the problem. That "little bit of welding" to quote Jerry looks like chicken **** on concrete. Would you want your operator to be in that machine if it rolled over and the ROPS structure fell apart like a house of cards.......?? I appreciate that the above is a very unlikely scenario. However you guys invented the "sue the *** of 'em" culture. Would you feel like rolling the dice if you thought you could be taken to the cleaners in court...? A further comment about the welding itself. The welder has committed one of the biggest no-no's of welding on a fabricated structure. The welding is transverse to the structure rather than being longitudinal. To correctly weld that tube on the ROPS the welding should have been vertical, but then again looking at the welding quality I'd guess whoever installed it wasn't capable of welding vertical up.
Is this the weld in question Nige ? Looks like a standard single pass with a 6011 rod . They penetrate well and work good for mating two pieces of steel together on a first pass . Now the bead wont look as smooth as other rods like a 7018 or a mig but they are still a sound weld . On vertical generally weld downward .
No that is harsh......but so very true!:falldownlaugh So if the **** poor welder, had taken the ROP's off. Laid it down where he could have welded it longitudinally with his meager skills and remounted the ROPS it would be OK? Rick
If there was an approved procedure to follow for doing a weld in that location on that ROPS "pant leg", and he followed it - yes .............. td, I'm sorry I don't care what electrode it was done with - a) it's a very poor quality weld, maybe caused by the fact the welder has tried to fill an non-uniform gap (round tube to flat plate) in one pass, and b) it's transverse to the structure............. IMHO vertical down welding is for those people who are incapable of welding vertical up - "the last refuge of the scoundrel". Sorry, whichever way you slice it - it's sh1te ............
"If there was an approved procedure to follow for doing a weld in that location on that ROPS "pant leg", and he followed it - yes .............." Just too much government intervention here. I can understand that some companies and employers need to be forced into providing as safe as possible working conditions but I think we are getting a little over the top on things. The "approved procedure" part is what gets me. To me this should be straight forward, either you can or cannot weld on that. If you can't fine. There are other ways to mount stuff. Just makes this seem to me that the government is out of control. Rick
I was hypothesizing Rick. There is no approved procedure, never has been, and never will be as long as the "see you in court" mentality applies .......... the equipment manufacturers won't wear it. In this case I don't think it's your government that's out of control TBH.
Thanks for the reply's guys. 1st, its no secret that I have a short fuse, a big mouth and that I absolutely detest anything shoved down our throats by the federal government. In my opinion, everything from the EPA, DOT, IRS, NSA, MSHA, DOD, .....all of them have gotten way out of control. I know people are going to disagree with me and tell me to grow up.....but I really don't care. The fact that some worm with badge and gun suddenly has the power to determine if I get to eat dinner does not sit well with me. My tax dollars pay for these fools like the MSHA jerk who think they they are mightier than God . You would think that I just slaughtered a church full of baby harp seals the way he ranted and fussed about the "unsafe modifications" done to the ROPS. At that point, I just wanted to punch him in his throat. The machine was red tagged and a citation was issued. Oh yeah, truck drivers are to remain in the cab while being loaded. An extra set of eyes watching me load rip rap is not safe and is my fault. Yeah....I know, but seriously? I don't know how much the fine will be but the owner will fight it. We have a written report by a certified structural engineer bla bla bla who came to our yard and very carefully examined the ROPS, the welds and so on. The paint looks fresh because I removed the paint so he could get a really up close look. $ 300.00 later and the report is in the mail. Once upon a time, we were paid an honest days wages for an honest days work. We used muscle, diesel and common sense and we got the job done without some worm watching our every move. You need a smart phone, GPS and a lawyer to compete today. Obamacare, more fees and more taxes.... The war on terrorism and the war on drugs depend on us.:usa Well....thats all the venting I needed. Hope I didn't insult anyone..... I need to go out and purchase a few gallons of pig urine for the green/environmentally friendly particulate filter on wheels that the boss was forced to purchase before it goes into limp mode and the idiot light comes on........ informing me that I just may be an idiot.
Well, my first reaction was, "Hmmm.... Pete's not in the seat. I need to take a closer look..."
You've not done much welding have you? Bob
I like when MSHA red tags a machine, then tell you that you cannot work on it where its at and it not allowed to be operated.
1st off this whole deal is income potential . If the machine is involved in an accident they will point to to non standard modification and say this is a sample of how they maintain the machine and we need to make them pay so it's understood that non standard repairs get us paid . Weather or not a 747 fell out of the sky right on top of it or not . The company that built the machine will not ok what was done because they will not assume liability on anything . Way better to sell you something else . Government loves this because of the income potential . Maybe at one time it was about correction of problems but it's strictly income and that alone . What I want to know is ... How have you enough nerve to run a machine that old any way ?? Surely the EPA has told you that machine is too old to be run . It needs to be replaced with a new more better machine . Personally that pipe worries me way less that the unknown amount of rust that might be inside that the leg of a rops that has been around that long but that will never be addressed . I have seen a LOT of stuff buried over the years because of this crap . Cut something like that off and make it invisible . I can not suggest that but over the years Non standard stuff go's away before it's seen by the money changers
Me either. And big business loves this too, from the manufacturers to the large construction outfits. I believe the onslaught of regulations (at this point in time) are designed to put the little guy out of business - I call it the Wal-mart doctrine. Sure safety and environmental regulations are needed and our society demands them, but one can go to far and into the realm of insanity which we are seeing now. Usually the biggest players in any field are the ones lobbying Congress and Fed gov't departments to develop more regulations in an industry - from licensing to safety. The big corp's have the money and a board room of lawyers to comply with it - the small guy does not. Put the small guy out of business and there's more market share. Crony capitalism at it's finest and it's been going on for a while. Now to comment on the original topic - I see nothing wrong with it and it won't affect the ROPS one bit. If a weld that small affected the structural composition of that ROPS then that D6 cutting edge we welded on the bottom of my 953 bucket 7 years ago should have already been ripped off with 2000 hours of use or the bucket itself imploded.:cool2 That being said, never weld, drill or alter a ROPS in anyway if you want to trade in or sell the machine to another contractor - the value of the tractor will cut dramatically. Just my $.02 business advice, take it as one will.
Big business might like it but big contractors/big jobs get inspected way more often then small jobs. Big contractors do NOT like it either. They get picked on more than their share.
The 6011 rod works great for poor fit up's mating two pieces of steel together . It also has somewhat of a " fast freeze " effect when you step out of the puddle & come back for another lap . Bead has somewhat of a rougher looking texture compared to other rods . Penetrates & seals up great . I generally run the 6011 down hill on a root pass . Then climb back upward with 7018's on filler . Seem to have good luck with it . Nige , I understand & respect your position and opinion on the subject as far as repairing a rops cab or anything for that matter as you guys have strict rules & guidelines to go buy . I you waiver from it you may lose your job . Myself being I answer directly to customers needs on a given project allows me to make the decisions quickly and well .... Get the job done so to speak then move on to the next task . We are from two different worlds so it is always interesting conversing .:thumbsup And for crying out loud .... Grab a 5 pound box of E 6011 electrodes and give them a try on a small project sometime . I think you will like them
Yair . . . This post a little off topic but it may be of interest. There is a great deal of discussion about electrodes on here, the welding forums and on the internet in general. I believe that in his #23 post td25c sums it up pretty well. I should add I don't claim to be an "expert", and have had no formal training. However when required I was able to gain certification to weld poisonous gas pipes, heat exchangers, aircraft manifolds and various other specialised TIG and stick applications. I have never used wire feed and while I realise it has become the industry standard I have repaired sufficient Migged failures to be somewhat leery of the process . . . not the system itself but rather the ability of all operators to set all the parameters in order to put down an effective run every time. In my experience with a stick weld if it looks good it is good and in fact it can look 'orrible and still be good to go . . . not so with MIG. It can look good but it's just laying on the top with little penetration just waiting for that bit of extra stress to cause the thing to fail. Which brings us back to electrodes. For every day run of the mill, non critical fabrication the general purpose designation 6012 is adequate for a wide variety of applications . . . even on high tensile a good fillet with a 6012 is better than a Gorilla snot effort with low hydrogen fizz sticks. I rarely use them these days and even on fabrications such as stickrakes and implements utilising used cutting edge a properly designed joint welded with GP's is adequate for most farming and non critical applications. Here in Australia the best of the Chinese 6012 electrodes are about one third the price of the big name brands and have similar classifications. When we moved down here and I was chasing a source of supply of "Chosun" sticks and one of the sales men at a welding supply business went right off and reckoned they were garbage . . . I quietly asked him how many pallets of them he had burned in the last 12 months. I then went on to tell him I had just finished welding the hull of a 65 foot trawler and felt I was in a rather better position than him to offer an opinion of their worth. Incidentally, unless the specifications have changed on steel vessels (for survey) we need to weld both sides of the plate . . . in the US they were only welded on the outside. Cheers.
Not sure about the welding quality unless it got x-rayed, but I did not see a seat belt fitting in the cab seat.
I'm not trying to stir the pot here, but I ask you this - and by that I mean everyone who's posted on this subject. Would you be as happy to modify the seat belt mounting or air bag system on your personal ride..? To me whether it's a seat belt, an air bag, or a ROPS it's a safety aid that you have hoping you're never going to need it, but with the confidence that it can likely save your life if everything goes t1ts up. To quote Clint Eastwood - "Do you feel lucky punk?"
Nige , If a modification will benefit anything be it safety or to make something more productive then absolutely ! Run it past and I will try to help in any way I can mate . Scrub Puller , Totally agree . You know I never have burned a 6012 rod . I will have to try that . Found an interesting article on Millers web page talking about different rods . http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/articles/stick-electrode-selection/ You also hit the nail on the head about poor factory mig welds . They look good on top but may not penetrate well causing a failure . run in to this on some repairs . This snow plow attachment was like that . I ended up welding it back with continuous beads of 6011 rods & reinforcement steel . I've had a Miller 250 amp mig welder for 20 years now and like it but everything has its place . We still burn a lot of rods .
I just cut a broken shank off a bucket yesterday. I was carbon arcing the factory welds out and was amazed at the porosity in the base welds. Terrible looking stuff but the finish passes were beautiful. I'm surprised the welds never cracked.
OK, I can understand some rules. But in some cases they are just stupid. I knew a guy with a Huber Maintainer who got an OSHA fine because it didn't have anything to prevent someone from putting their hand in the engine compartment while it was running. Was built before that requirement for new equipment. If the machine was being operated the operator couldn't stick his hand in the engine compartment unless his arms were about 8 feet long. The only person would likely stick their hand in the engine compartment while it was running would have been a mechanic who would have to do it when making adjustments or bleeding the injectors. OK that's way far out there. I also question the welds shown. I understand that improper welds or exceeding the structural limits can make the ROPS fail. But that little bit? If the ROPS is that flimsy maybe it wasn't built strong enough in the first place. Rick
In a short private meeting with a ROPS manufacturer's representative to a Forestry group he told me with some pride that the ROPS manufacturers were doing everything they could to promote new engineering and testing standards for protective structures. Also working tirelessly to have OSHA et al require ROPS and FOPS on any machines that may somehow have been allowed to skate all these years, like excavators and off road dumps. I'm all for safety, but once again the fox is being put in charge of security for the hen house. After all it works so well when the banking industry regulates itself right? I have shopped around a bit doing research on getting some ROPS structures designed and built for my own production. The average seems to run right at $100K to design, fabricate, and test the prototype. Test to failure, no matter if it passes the requirements without damage, it MUST be tested to failure, according to their own testing requirements, which they are lobbying to become law! There are currently a couple lower cost alternatives which seem perfectly adequate to me, all engineered and legal, but I am sure the bigger players will if possible put them out of business soon. When it comes to welds on any structure, and I bow to Nige as he has shown many times on this board his experience with critical structure repairs and failures, the smallest weld can become a stress riser with resulting fractures and eventual failure. Just because something looks good and has been there for a while without failure doesn't mean it's okay.
I thought it was common knowledge that you can't drill, weld, or modify a ROPS frame? So really it is not relevant whether the weld is well done, poorly done, so small it doesn't matter, or whatever else - you just can't do it.
Actually no, it's not common knowledge. I learned that right here on this thread. Now about 8 years ago one of my son in laws and I discussed starting our own excavating business. We did some internet research did some talking to a banker and looked at machinery. Then the housing meltdown started so it never went any further. Not once did we see anything about ROPS rules for OSHA. So it really isn't common knowledge. I did learn that before you do anything a person should get on government sites and so some very boring reading. Rick
When you are working in a mining environment that is governed by MSHA you need to be more aware of the regulations and compliance requirements than most general contractors. MSHA is far more strict than OSHA. I have had to modify many machines that we rented to quarries and mines to make them MSHA compliant even though they were OSHA compliant in factory trim.
It should be common knowledge, it's usually in the safety warnings in the front of every manual along with the smashed finger and exploding battery warnings. Maybe the original poster will give the total that that weld ended up costing and none of us will ever even think of doing something like that.
OSHA/MSHA or the authorities in other countries like the UK Health & Safety Executive, it makes no difference. Here for the delectation of all HEF members are copies of the Cat old style (textual) & new style (graphic) warning decals that are fixed to every ROPS structure, plus an extract from the text of the Operator Manual. I'm sure other manufacturers have similar wording.
I guess you have never had any formal or pratical welding training to know almost all vertical welds on sheet metal are down hand welds and almost all stick welds on cross country pipelines are down hand welds. Bob
Never noticed those. We were looking at older equipment. Rick
Are you saying that the big gulp holder rolled out of the CAT plant? (which I would assume meets the certified welder requirment mentioned earlier if it did, even if it looks like chicken ****-factory approved modification if it did indeed get delivered that way). Or was it dealer installed? Or original owner forgetting he tacked that on himself? Alex.
Asked and answered.
You stated that it had not been altered,SOMEONE did with the weld on stubby cooler
Silicone on the back & Zip-Ties top bottom and middle =We don't need this thread.
Even if welding on ROPS/FOPS was legal, what would worry me is what you may not know. Did they mess up the weld and grind it until it was pretty? Did they gouge it? Is it full of porosity? And having tested ROPS in the past they are tested to destruction because it is difficult to predict all the variables - material quality, weld process, fastener installation, ect. - to a level high enough to withstand legal scutiny. You also want to know how it fails because that tells you how much margin there is and alot about the design. It should deform and absorb enery. If it suddenly snaps under load the design will not fail predictably when you consider the variables. And no company is ever going to take the risk to allow a customer to modify a ROPS, better to maybe lose one customer vs potential multimillion lawsuite. I'm sure a company like CAT or Deere has a couple dozen lawsuites at any one time. Even if you win you just spent tens of thousands on the lawyers and expert testimony. ISZ
Yeah icestationzebra , I get the whole MSHA guy showing up at the site to find something wrong with a machine . They have to justify there job in the name of safety . Got That. My question is , for anyone ...... From a welding & fabricating standpoint ...... Do you really believe that can welded on the side of the ROPS on Pete's loader has any effect on the structural integrity ?
My personal opinion is that no, the canopy will still do its job. That is my belief is that it would hold up thru one tramatic incident just as it is designed. Even if it cracked off I believe the canopy would do its job. But I also know that MSHA is absolutely by the book in their jurisdiction. Common sense never has and probably never will be part of any code enforcement. They will not risk the liability no matter how low it is. Around here there new enjoyment is busting the mom and pop gravel pits almost daily now. A friend who runs a one man operation uses an really old, small Manitowoc dragline that he uses to dig sand out of a wet pit got busted recently. His machine has every guard in place that it came with but they closed him down and came up with 6 more guards on gears back in the house away from the operator that they claim he needs before he can schedule then back for a reinspection so he can go back to work.
Yair . . . td25c. If the manufacturer had needed a lug or fitment in that position it would have been welded on with out a second thought so no, I don't think the "modification" has made any difference at all . . . particularly on a static member such as the post of a ROPS. I can though, see the need to have some legislation concerning modifications to structures and I guess the easiest way to ensure compliance is to allow no mods at all. (shakes head) Where folks can get into trouble (and I don't think it is covered by legislation) is "modification" to excavator and loader arms by way of welding on tabs and brackets for extra plumbing. I have repaired several booms and sticks from cracks that propagated from the welds on hydraulic line blocks and clamps. If such modifications have to be made I used to always put on (say) two inch round doublers ex 1/4" plate, get a smooth blended weld all around them and weld the blocks or tabs to them . . . copped a few snide comments about being an "old woman" but I could live with that. Cheers.
"If the manufacturer had needed a lug or fitment in that position it would have been welded on with out a second thought" Yes and no. Like you and others have said that little weld would almost certainly not make a difference. But if a ROPS failed and that weld was not on the certified test article the lawyers will have you for lunch - i.e. where else did you cut corners? The OEM would almost certainly have to test a new part with that addition. Two other thoughts. If your employee was hurt in a roll-over with a modified ROPS say goodbye to your business. And as far as MSHA goes how would you allow "minor" modifications? Is a 4" weld OK? What about 6? Certified welder only - how could you prove it? How close can it be to the attachment points? You get into unknown territory real fast. I've been on both sides of this coin so I totally understand your consternation, but you wont win this one. ISZ
Yair . . . No, no you've got me wrong ISZ , I understand . . . the only way to ensure compliance is to prohibit modifications completely. In the days before regulation and ROPS we had these built . . . to protect the operator and machine against falling trees and when rolling into gullys. The biggest problem was to beef up the running boards and brace them together in order to take the weight. It was a huge job to get steel in there in an unboltable fashion so components could be removed . . . yet years later when I examined approved so called FOPS and ROPS on similar tractors the bloody things were just bolted onto the standard components. For ever after I have tended to look at so called "approved" ROPS structures with a rather jaundiced eye. Cheers.
Sorry, not true. I've seen the **** we went through in order to get bosses welded on to ROPS structures by the factory. Literally it was a job of many years to achieve it. There are certain areas of a ROPS (such as the canopy part over the top of the cab) where to get a boss welded on was much easier. Others such as the support legs were an order of magnitude harder. Effectively a strain analysis of the structure had to be produced to figure out what were the no-go area for welding (usually came out red), what were classed as dodgy (yellow) and what were "safe" (green). Once that had been established and design engineering were happy with the changes the whole process had to go to the Certification & Legal Departments. I recall a model change one time where we had been bitching for years regarding lack of mounting points on the ROPS for GPS, radio antennae, fire system, numbers, etc, etc. From the time we were asked to indicate what our wish list was to the time the new ROPS design was certified was a hair over 4 years ......... and I still have all my old emails to back that up. I don't have a stress analysis for a ROPS but here's one of a tilt lever to illustrate the point. Scrub, I can only speak for my experience with Cat but the supports for a Cat ROPS structure are always welded to the machine frame, not bolted. A FOPS structure is totally different in that it's not designed to carry the weight of the machine in case of a rollover but protect the cab in case of something crashing down on top of it.
Sorry, got the wrong attachment ......
Yair . . . Gotcha Nige. Those graphics are fascinating and show just how complex this subject is. In my statement about the lug being welded I meant at the design stage and before testing. As you know I have been out of the game for many years but I well remember the boss and I pulling up and examining one of the new fangled ROPS structures on a nine G or H. We were surprised the mounting brackets for front legs were just bolted to the running boards and the back legs not much better, they were bolted to a bit of extra bracing. The structure itself was held on by four (I think) 3/4" horizontal bolts one of which was missing. At the time there was a rumble going through the industry about the ROPS and FOPS regulations and the insurance implications of running with non compliant structures. We had always considered ourselves to be well ahead of the game and were concerned the compliant but (for our purposes) completely inadequate structures offered by the manufacturers may be another expensive problem. In truth I don't really know what happened. We continued manufacturing "canopies" as they are known here and even today I see little welding works are still building canopies for scrub tractors and I can't imagine they have jumped through the hoops to get certification. I do see more and more machines with the added complexity of a scrub canopy constructed around the Manufacturers Cab and ROPS such as the maintenance nightmare here . . . perhaps though on the hi-track getting at things is not so much of an issue? I imagine this approach is taken to retain the air-conditioning . . . it seems these days you gotta have that air. (grin) Perhaps Queenslander or one of our other members in the scrub game would care to comment on the current situation? Cheers.
I feel the same way old-iron . Looking at it from a welding & fabricating aspect I would not even consider the can on Pete's ROPS a modification . Just a little add on to hold a water jug or fire extinguisher . All it has to do is hold about 10 pounds . LOL! Not to mention it was more than likely added for safety reasons to begin with ...... That's a bad deal about your buddy getting hassled . When you say they closed him down , I take it he can't move any material or operate the machine by some threat or another ?
When you see Do Not Weld stickers on a truck frame, do you weld anyway? In my limited interaction with MSHA inspectors, I have never had any issues. They are doing their job. Inspectors are skittish, if they pass something off and someone gets hurt, they can end up in jail. About 20 years ago, an electrical inspector in the NE signed off on a house not noticing the heat was wired 220 vs. 120 as it should have been. Homeowner got killed the inspector went to jail for 20 years. Here in Washington, several inspectors have been hung out to dry when they passed something off and someone got hurt.An inspector I know was one of these people, afterwards, he was thought to be the biggest a**hole in the world because nothing slid by him. But as he said; "once is enough." Corporate lawyers not MSHA are the problem. As others have said, with a "modification to the ROPS, any two bit lawyer would own you in a heartbeat if something happened and someone got hurt. If an operator somehow falls off the machine, it will be the beverage holder that caused it, even if he fell on the opposite side. Not saying it is right, but it is the way it is. Darn, I am glad I am retired now.
Scrub Puller - that looks more like protection from a meteor shower! :wink2 I would have to pull up the standard to be sure, but I beleive a ROPS only has to withstand the max GVW without crushing the operator. Forestry equipment gets into falling tree protection but I haven't worked on any of that type of equipment yet so I'm not familiar with the regs. If you are falling/rolling some distance into the gullies and/or dealing with trees then I would want an upgrade over a standard ROPS too! And a general comment about bolting vs. welding - there are some scenarios where a bolt will work better than a weld. Designing a weld joint can be a tricky beast. Fatigue life and ease of manufacturing are usually on opposite sides of the scale. By the way, do they expect a new ROPS or just remove the can holder? ISZ
Yair . . . Good stuff ISZ it's a great pleasure on this forum to get feedback from other parts of the world even if some of my views on matters are fifty years out of date. (big grin)
I have a real hard time believing that. Unless there was an outright payoff from the contractor to the inspector, or something similar. "Hung out to dry", sure, but even losing a job is pretty rare from what I've seen.
Only if it need's welded or cut in half to be lengthened .
I use to build remote television site trucks. We made the boxes and lengthened frames all the time. We added tag axles, and even did slide outs for under 25GVWR and up to 53 foot box trailers. We did a weld in frame for the length, then an inlay and over lay bolted in. The only modification we ever did to our process was to start doing diagonal cuts to frame instead of straight cuts when we did lengthen them. Kinda of a big rush when you pull a $120,000 plus rig in and start cutting it up with a torch!
That's cool 96_Bear ! My background is similar only we were stretching out trucks for grain & dump beds . Would build drive lines as well . Hence when I see threads like this I get a little confused from a structural welding standpoint ????? I get the whole MSHA inspector thing . Got that .........
Here's my cut and welded double frame I recently picked up. 10'-5" of flatbed and 18 ft of dump. It has never cracked that I can see.
This reminds me of going to one of our small gravel operations years back to change the Camel-back spring in an old Mack. One of the main leafs had broke and to keep running the truck which was only used to stock material in the plant the boss had welded the spring together! He laid a maybe 3/4 inch bolt inline next to the spring over lapping the gap in the spring. Then ran the weld along either side of the bolt. It actually held, he told me as long as the weld was inline with the spring it would hold pretty good, if if weld across it would just snap. Sounded like he had done this a few times before! Was fun fighting that old spring out with no jack other than the one bottle jack to hold up the truck. Working alone the only way I could get the old one out and new one in was one leaf at a time. Bottom leaf with center bolt first then stack one leaf at a time on the last one. I'm sure the U-bolts were far from tight but good enough for where it was working!
I to understand MSHA and a I do see there point from some of the things I now deal with FDA and NFPA. The first truck/trailer I ever worked on was the Monday Night Football truck. Was just a little company out of Sunbury Ohio. Not sure if I am allowed to post the link but the first part of the company name is Gerling. There is lots of pictures of work I did there. The company only had 30 employees.
That's interesting 96_Bear . So to put it all in a nutshell so to speak ....... Company buys a truck or trailer . People on the set say we need it to do this or that and then it gets handed to you to make needed modifications . Am I pretty close ?
Nice find old-iron ! Damn ..... You could have a barbeque and square dance behind the cab of the ASTRO ! Cummins power ?
Its actually a Chevrolet Titan. Pretty rare copy. It has all the options then that was available then. It has a 350 Cummins with a 13 speed. 177,000 miles on it right now. Was owned by a truss manufacturing facility and delivered trusses. Brought it home crusing at 72 MPH with some left. Just got classic plates for it today. Going to be the new toyhauler. It has a little damage in the back lower corner where they set the aluminum cab down on some blocking but otherwise its real clean. Looking for a body shop now to clean it up with new paint. I want Cat yellow, wife wants something else. If she pays for half it gets her color choice. Lighting needs some work but tires and brakes are good. It has hook ups for an air brake trailer also. I picked it up cheap so I can stick a bit into it.
That's cool old -iron ! Keep it up Bro . I got to say it ..... Man ..... I cant get over some of the internet nonsense on welding . After passing trucks on the road we put together 20 years ago and still hauling today pretty much puts it in perspective for myself . Don't have time to worry about some little can welded on the side of a ROPS cab . LOL !
Splicing a frame is completely different than gluing on a bracket or welding something on top of the frame flange. These kinds of things are just about guaranteed to create stress risers that will lead to cracks and eventual failure. Then you have to replace the frame rail or splice in a section, neither of which is fun or cheap.
Yeah lantraxco , I would agree with that to an extent . That was always the text book rule . But then again there are exceptions ............ One example is a factory built trailer with fenders welded on top frame flange . No problems with it . Then look at the mast section on the 750 Holmes , welded on flanges & across the channel in pretty much every direction . No complaints , Ernest Holmes got it figured out long time ago . Then on the other end of the extreme when I built the FWD oil field truck every thing got welded solid to the frame from the tail board to the front fenders . Similar to a crane chassis . H - beams welded rite in to the frame rails & suspension brackets . http://www.heavytruckforums.com/showthread.php?51-Fwd-Trucks&p=223&viewfull=1#post223 I like to step back & look how different equipment is put together , helps me make decisions on how to repair & fabricate .
Truck frames are often heat treated like a spring leaf, thus the decals warning not to weld on them. Structural steel will still have issues but it's a lot less likely to fail since the weld and what you're attaching are probably very close in strength to the parent metal. Cheers
Yair . . . To put things into perspective . . . welding a drink holder/fire extinguisher bracket onto a ROPS would not be an issue in most cases but there have to be rules and industry wide I guess it is simpler to enforce a no modification/welding/drilling rule. As I have mentioned somewhere (perhaps on this thread) I have seen cracks propagated by gorilla snot welds on brackets attaching hydraulic tube clamps to excavator booms so, as pointed out by Nige with the computer stress analysis pictures, this can be a complex issue. Cheers.
Oh man ....... I really done it this time .... Just hope we can it fixed before Nige sees it .. We borrowed the loader arm and while prying up some limestone broke it in two ( Dad was operating ) I didn't do it . Lets say a new one is not available or costs some crazy amount of cash . Would you guys weld it back together ? I know this is a safety thread but just throwing out some hypothetical welding humor . Have to deal with repairs like that from time to time . HeavyEquipmentForums
Funny welding stories Got it back in one piece ........ Paint is still wet . Years ago my Grandfather had some trouble with his dump truck ..... What happened is the set screw on the pto shaft driving the hydraulic pump came loose allowing the shaft to swing wild and snapped off the end off the pto drive shaft in the keyway . I was about 12 years old at the time & asked him " Why don't you take it to the welding shop and they could fix it " ? Grandpa replied " There is no way that shaft could be repaired " !!!!!!! We went to a junk yard and picked up a used pto unit to mount back on the transmission ......... And guess what ????? The end of the drive shaft had been welded up ... Grandpa ended up buying the pto and we mounted it on the truck .... I never let him live it down . Can't be welded ? LOL!
Don't worry td, I have thick skin ....... and BTW you wouldn't weld a total failure of that lever - it's cast ........ the recommendations on the drawing are for weld-repairing casting defects on a new lever, not for field repair. Back to Page 1 for a moment if I may. The simple fact is that a ROPS is a safety item and you mess with it at your peril, or at least you do since you Colonials have developed your "I'll sue the *** off you because I can and a jury is going to award me a gazillion dollars in damages" culture which the rest of the ambulance-chasing world has taken up with gusto. I agree that welding the fire extinguisher bracket on the ROPS most likely didn't affect its structural integrity, but would YOU like to be the person in the seat if it went over and the ROPS collapsed on your head, or would you like to be the person who did the modification that resulted in someone's serious injury or even death..? There are certain things I personally would not mess with and the case that generated the OP is one of them. When it comes to structures I'm much more willing to experiment. The caveat here is understanding how it was put together in the first place. Years ago we were told that a broken lift arm main plate couldn't be welded because the factory procedure required putting the entire structure in an oven to stress-relieve it. what did we do..? built an oven big enough for it that's what. I'll see if I can find some photos. I have no problems cutting frames apart but I do like to know a little bit about the metallurgy first and how it was put together. If you understand how it was put together in the first place then coming up with a plan to fix it is generally speaking a relatively simple process. Judging by the number of posts on HEF asking for advice regarding welding repairs for stuff that has been welded before and then (ohmigod who would have believed it) re-cracked leads me to believe that there are a large number of folks walking around this planet who should not be allowed within a mile of any structural welding repair because they are a danger to themselves and others......
Like the time we had a 769C truck from another quarry who apparently did not feel keeping the nitrogen suspension cylinders working and this truck had a crack in the frame right above the rear axle. This crack went from right to left and a couple inches down the side plate. Company hired in an outside contractor to repair it. A few minutes with a grinder, no preheating and a few quick passes and job done! I'll be the first to say I'm not a welder, biggest problem I had is when I got into this business is the shop had at least two full time welders and there was more wrench work than we could handle so if something needed a quick tack or major fabrication job the welders took over that part. Often regret not having the need or opportunity to learn that part of the business. But that being said I still feel, at least on the basic level, I can tell the difference between a good solid repair and a quicky "cosmetic" patch. Does not take a skilled welding technician to understand that a 1/4 inch deep groove in a 1 inch thick plate is not going to restore the integrity of a frame.
That's cool Nige ! I knew you would take it in stride mate .:thumbsup We just try to keep customers taken care of & happy . Last week I did get a good look at the mine safety bull crap. Went on service call to get a trucker out of a jam ... Pretty easy job . Guy kept thanking & praising us for doing it as the mine he was hauling in to would not lift a finger to help him . I thought " what the hell are you talking about " , this is what I do bro ...... Aint scared of the job .......... Damn Colonials ! http://www.heavytruckforums.com/showthread.php?263-Some-Holmes-750-action&p=1610#post1610
Out of curiosity,can the canopy on this old 980 be returned to service?
Officially the answer is no. Any ROPS with welding in non-approved areas such as the support legs should have the certification plate removed and the structure cut with a gas axe to prevent it being used again.
I finally got some time and went digging for photos. Do you think you could weld-repair this TD..?
Oh Nige ! Don't tell me you let my Dad back on the loader ! Got to keep a close eye on him .:cool2 How soon do you need it repaired ? Oh yeah ..... Sorry he broke it again .
That gave me a chuckle TD. A friend of mine has the same issue. His dad works for him and well he's rather a card. :cool2 I respect the hell out of the old coot but he deals junior fits.
Yeah CM , It's funny because it's true . That's Dad , gotta love him :salute He insisted the 15' bat wing bush hog needed new blades installed . OK , put them on then later that day I hear this god awful bang ! bang ! bang ! down in the woods ........ Yep he was testing out the new blades on some limestone .
Loader repair Nige , I forgot to ask ... Do want me to straiten the cylinder rod or replace it ?
Yair . . . Nige. What initiated the failure in the loader arm? Cheers.
See that dark mark in the corner of the lever just by the date..? It's a high-cycle fatigue crack probably caused by a defect in the casting. It will have progressed slowly until it got to the point where the rest of the structure couldn't support it at which point the rest of the section just came apart like a zipper. Let me find a photo.......like this one.....
Yeah Nige , I just figured it broke because they did not put enough iron in it to begin with ??? Might call Cat and ......... Inform them of the problem Mate .:thumbsup
Yair . . . Gotcha Nige. I could see the problem area just curious to know what initiated the crack. Back a while now the mainframe of one of the (I think) New Holland ag. tractors was a casting with similar gross section, but of course a little smaller and prone to breaking . . . the one I saw they reckoned was initiated by a weld arc and not subject to warranty consideration It was repaired on farm by welding and mechanical reinforcement by plates secured by bolts driven into reamed to size holes. Cheers.
What can't speak can't lie as the man says. I have welded some door tie backs to the rops frame of the D8's and some extra 'safety rails' on the D5H roll bar. Probably made things worse
Yeah nicky68a , from what I understand you made these changes to the rops cab to make it more friendly for the operator .Yes ? I aint going to let this one go .........:cool2 So I have to ask . Will you remove the rops cabs off & scrap them due to the additional welding & modifications or will you stand behind it and run the equipment ?:beatsme
You are right TD,and no,I won't be sorting the problem.However,If I was still in the game as a front line money earner,I would not be doing anymore welding to rops or dippers etc.A fair point has been duly noted here
Yeah nicky , Understand . I just look at it a little different . I don't see any problems with the modifications you made on the D8 & D5 if it made it more operator friendly or added some safety value . Did your welding cause any structural problems to either machine ? Myself , I have lost count of welding modifications done for customers & myself on trucks & equipment . One job that comes to mind is when my logger buddy bought a 225 Timberjack skidder . He had lost his older brother in an accident and wanted to prevent it from happening again . So we welded in heavy mesh screen on front , built a side door with mesh on top & sheet steel below . All got welded rite in to the ROPS frame tubing . Wish I had a picture of it but it looked something like this . Worked well for them . Just look ... Don't touch it as the paint is still wet . If you were to bring me a new 2016 model Cat D8 with a complaint about operator comfort , safety or special purpose that the dealer won't take care of I will gladly fire up the torch , & flip on the welder to give the customer what they need .
Well I hope you have deep pockets if heaven for bid an MSHA inspector does not agree with your modifications. If I want to modify something for my own personal use that's one thing but when someone else gets in the seat the story is very different. I, with help from the welder at work, built a custom front end for my sidecar outfit. It has been on there since 1993 and works great. If or when I decide to part with this bike I will NOT include this front end.
That Bike with the sidecar turned out really nice kshansen . I like it ! See .... Myself I don't differentiate between the two projects . The bike would be given the same care and attention as the dozer . I'm sure you and the welder did the same when building the bike . Both are the same to me when looking at it from a welding & fabricating standpoint structurally . We would not want either to ever fail who ever is operating it .
Ok , Time for some more hypothetical welding humor . Now that kshansen is retired from the quarry and trying to figure out what to do with all that time & money ............... He buys a brand new Cat D8 dozer to take on some dirt & clearing jobs . Gets a pretty good deal on the machine as dealer was motivated to sell . Only one problem .... He wants the D8 outfitted like an Australian dozer with full bush canopy & front tree pusher mounted to the blade . Dealer is reluctant to out fit the new 8 like this for whatever reason . Might void some warranty ? Who knows ? Still determined to outfit the dozer he gets it touch with some low life fabricator that calls himself td25c . td25c looks the job over ....... Sais yeah we can do that , going to cost such & such . Stuff like that happens at times . We could start on this in December kshansen , just let me know Bro .
Yair . . . td25c Sounds like a plan, I could come over as a highly unqualified consultant and cook the BBQ and keep the beer iced while you blokes cut and weld. (big grin) Cheers.
Yeah Scrub Puller . Your in the plan Mate ! :thumbsup Phase 1 is to relocate you to the Midwest states as we need a good cook and experienced consultant with wisdom in these matters . kshansen is flipping the bill on this project . Money is not a problem Mate !:cool2
That's furshure money is no problem cause I got none! Right now I be trying to teach meself to weld gud enouf to repair the snowblower before the white stuf get here! They sure don't make them to last these days. Dad bought this one in or about 1966 and seems he never worried about replacing the cutting edge when it got worn. Now the main body needs about a 3 inch section put in then a new cutting edge installed. Wife thinks I should buy a new one, looked at some at Lowes yesterday, $1,200+. For that price I can spend a few days out in the shop playing with my little MIG 120 volt welder! Then again that D8 would probably work to push some snow, including all the blacktop off the driveway and most of the state highway out front!
I hate it when that happens . Well , I better break the bad news to Scrub Puller . We were looking forward to that job . Your Dad's snow blower sounds like a good project . Gravely by chance ? Those 120 volt mig's are handy . Do you also have a stick welder ?
Not Gravely, Ariens, No Stick just the little Lincoln wire feed. Not going to be welding cutting edges on a 988H with it but for the small jobs I do around the house it seems to be good. Actually surprises me how good it does when I get things just right.
This is going to work out great ! With the savings of repairing Dad's 1966 Ariens snow blower you now have a windfall of $1,200 to spend on more welding equipment . This is how you break it to the wife Ken . I highly recommend the Lincoln model . Dad bought one for me over 30 years ago and we still use it today ! He must have been thinking ahead on that one . LOL ! http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200435113_200435113 And grab a good torch kit . http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200313416_200313416
Its amazing how well the little 110 volt migs work when you use a good proper wire wired 30 amp circuit without a extension cord. Good power really makes them rock!
This evenings project was a couple of deer stands . It's that time of year .:thumbsup Funny part is I'm not even sure who's they are ? People just dump off broken & bent up stuff & want it put back together . LOL !
We solved the "deer stand mystery " today ....... Buddy Bob called on cell phone .. " Hey .. did you see the deer stands ? " I'm like yeah , I saw them & got one ready last night . Got the other one done today . Made weld repairs at factory joints (red lines ) . And added additional bracing ( yellow arrows ) . Funny part of the story is I cut about 2 feet off the bottom of the ladder to get the tubing for the bracing . Oh well .... Buddy Bob don't need to have his ass up that high in the air anyway with a loaded gun . :lmao It was all done with safety in mind . LOL !