So, I'm going to take delivery on a used 2012 CAT 259B3 with enclosed cab. I'll be doing a lot of brushing and mulching which is likely to produce a lot of combustible material that could get inside the engine compartment. That condition plus the ever present hazard of a broken hydraulic lines makes me very fire conscious, especially onboard fire. Just to show my age..I remember as a kid seeing red buckets of sand hanging near the engine room on the local ferry....not meant for but used for cigarette butts! What's the best setup for my new rig? CO2? Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
20lb dry powder would be your best bet IMHO. Finding somewhere to mount it not so easy .......
Am thinking about mounting outside on the back with maybe a protective shield I can fabricate....
Yair . . . Dickeyjoe . As Nige says dry powder is probably your best option but plain old water worked for us on dozers where dealing with fires could be a daily occurrence. We weren't restricted for room and carried cream cans on the floor plates and later built fifty gallon tanks in the canopies. I reckon on your machine one of those pressurised water jobbies you charge yourself with an air compressor would deal with most of your problems. You could just buy a suitable size LPG bottle and make it up yourself . . . you could still have a smaller dry-powder on hand if you had to deal with oil. The point I make is you don't want to be popping an extinguisher every time you get some smoke. The main thing of course is to do some basic modifications such as flaps of fireproof fabric over seams and joints and around the exhaust to stop getting stuff in there in the first place. Cheers.
Scrub, the problem with a skid steer is there are so many holes it's pretty much impossible to stop stuff getting into the engine compartment. Sorry to say there isn't even enough room around the silencer to lag it with a fireproof blanket. The O&M Manual is interesting though. Under the heading "Daily or Every 10 operating hours" is the requirement to Inspect/Clean the engine compartment - "Inspect the engine compartment for dirt buildup or debris. Remove any dirt or debris from the engine compartment. If necessary, remove the lower access panel in order to clean out the engine compartment. The air conditioning condenser is located at the back of the engine compartment. Cleaning the air conditioning condenser will maintain optimum performance of the air conditioning system. Use low pressure water in order to clean the condenser." I wonder how many owners/operators actually do that ....?
I have a 226A and a 259b3. Some window screen over the air intake areas worked wonders. You will still get leaves and what in there just not like before. Dry chemical extinguisher would be a must in that operating environment.
Yair . . . Gotcha Nige . I just goggle imaged the machine . . . man they have some stuff jammed in there! Had nothing much to do with skids but remember the first one I ever saw. I don't recall the make but I think it had a petrol engine and the whole engine/ pump assembly slid back out of the machine for maintenance and service. What struck me was the potential with hydraulic drive to make machines modular and easy to work on . . . as I see it ain't necessarily so. (big grin) Cheers.
Thanks a bunch guys for the comments. I like the screen idea... I will also try to incorporate a compressed air blow out as step one in the daily clean out routine, before pressure washing the undercarriage. I'm working on my own place and will be returning home daily, because we do have teenagers around in the summer looking for trouble. Nothing like a piece of machinery to attract the attention of young males.
It seems like 99% of salvage skid steers are fire machines. What other causes besides brushing seem to catch most of these things on fire? Please excuse the ignorance? Junkman Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
You don't want just any dry-chem extinguisher, you want one with a minimum rating of 10-B-C. Typically the 1-A size is the most common for vehicles. The B-rating is for burning liquids: oil, diesel, gas, etc. The C-rating is for electrical fires. Also consider a AFFF fire extinguisher. I carry a 1-A 10-B-C on all my equipment. While I don't have a fully enclosed cab on the skid, it's mounted vertically at the left rear corner of the cage with a piece of foam rubber glued to it in case my head finds it. Been lucky so far.
see my comments above regarding cleaning out the engine compartment daily to remove accumulated trash. Do you....?
Any comments out there mounting an extinguisher to the outside rear of the skid engine compartment door? It should be safe and handy for where fires are likely to start. And it won't overheat on the outside. Or not?
A good idea in principle, but if an expected fire is most likely to be in the area of the engine bay it doesn't make sense for the operator actually to have to expose himself to risk to get at the fire extinguisher to put it out. I wouldn't expect an extinguisher to overheat if mounted on the outside of the engine compartment door though.
Good point..Nige. So, if a fire does start on my machine where I am both operator and owner , (now there's a real conflict of interest!) won't I want to try and open the compartment to put out the fire? Am I wrong that with diesel there is less risk of explosion?
You could always mount the extinguisher on the roof of the machine with a protective cover in case something falls on it? I would also recommend keeping a water extinguisher available or even put a 25 gallon sprayer tank on the roof with a small pump in case you start one in the bush by accident.
What I was trying to say is you need the extinguisher in a place where you can safely access it so that you can have the safety pin pulled, the nozzle deployed, and your finger on the trigger - and all of this BEFORE you pull the engine compartment door open. You are correct in that diesel (and lubricating oil for that matter) are less likely to explode. However the engine compartment only holds a certain amount of air and can to a certain extent subdue a fire burning by somewhat starving it of oxygen. The act of opening the door to attempt to put the fire out would allow more air in and therefore the fire could flare up right in your face. That's why I'd want to be 100% ready with the extinguisher before opening the door.
Thanks, Nige.. . I better practice getting quickly to the back of the machine, get my extinguisher in hand and only a then open up the compartment. Response time will be very important if I don't want to be left with only salvage..Hmmm, maybe I should do my brushwork only in the rain! Tuff Stuff Xtreme 17500lb Wireless Waterproof Recovery Winch
Or do what the O&M Manual recommends and at the end of each working day open up the compartment and clean out any flammable brush material that may have accumulated there during the day ...... shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes.
Yup.....
Yair . . . Dickeyjoe . As I mentioned up thread we used to deal with fires on a daily basis and I will say again that nothing beats good old water for suppressing fires that start from trash build up. The only place that should get hot enough to ignite should be around the exhaust and then, depending on airflow within the enclosure you could end up with multiple fires in different parts of the machine. As others have stated a pressure tank could be mounted on the roof with guarding. Once you have a fire you have to wet the whole machine down . . . as soon as that fan starts you are just as likely to smell smoke again . . . most extinguishers are one hit wonders, got another one on hand? As soon as you are aware of smoke get the revs off (the fan stokes the fire) and shut the machine down as soon as possible . . . probably not all that easy in these days of A/C, a fire could be well alight before you were aware of the smell. I can't imagine with the sort of jobs you would be doing you would be too far from you ute/pickup and when I am stoking fires I always flood the belly-gaurds of the dozer with water morning and lunch time have a drum of water and pump handy on the back of the truck. You could do the same, as I have mentioned propane tanks are good. A hundred pound one two thirds filled with water and pressurised with air through a Schreider valve would be ideal . . . fitted with a gauge to check pressure daily and twenty feet of delivery hose. Just some thoughts. Cheers.
Actually I do. When I bought my 277c it had been used mowing brush, there were leaves, clippings and small branches EVERYWHERE! I just find it hard to believe that all of the fires are caused by brush/debris in the engine compartment?! Maybe so???? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
If you're not convinced after hearing Scrub's tales of bush clearing in Oz, nothing will convince you about the root cause of engine bay fires.
Sounds like you've dealt with your share of fire... Thanks a bunch for the water filled propane tank suggestion. I'm feeling my way into this. We get very dry after June, maybe even earlier this year, so all clearing work stops because of risk of runaway brush fires sparked by either cutting blades or even contact with hot exhaust pipes underneath. My real focus has been on dealing with an onboard fire on the skid itself which is a new machine for me. I think doing a lot of daily debris removals and keeping an eye on hydraulic leaks the muffler and engine block will prevent a lot.
Not as many as Scrub, that's for sure.
I have to agree with Scrubpuller I'm a Volunteer Firefighter and have been to several vehicle and equipment fires in the past and nothing beats water. Many years ago we responded to a track loader on fire that was being used to clear brush or something like that it had caught fire in the belly pan and despite several attempts at using powder fire extinguishers it kept burning. Our pumper at the time only had a 500 u.s. gallon tank on it and we had to fill it up three times to cool it down. The Fire Department I currently belong to has a quad with a 25 gallon sprayer tank and a little gasoline powered pump on it that we use for fighting grass and brush fires, something like that could be really handy even if it looks a little odd mounted on top of your cab but it's the only unused space I can think of on a skid-steer.
Would you go that way or use AFFF. All the fire suppression systems I've seen have been AFFF, except for the engine executioner systems fitted to fuel tankers. Either way, you definitely want a hand held Dry Chemical on board with you. If you have a dry chem extinguisher of any sort, part of your maintenance must include turning the extinguisher upside down and agitating on a regular basis to prevent the powder packing tight through vibration. Many a dry chem has failed to work for this reason. You're dead right though, no spare room on a skid steer.
Additionally to giving the extinguisher a good shake to get the powder moving on a regular basis I would also recommend removing the screw top and checking that the compressed gas cylinder inside has not unscrewed itself and is lying in the powder ............ some would say that by doing that you're voiding the test certificate, I would reply that I want the best chance of the extinguisher to work when I really need it.
Some good ideas on fire extinguishers above. Also keep in mind the best/recommended time to do the daily cleaning of the engine compartment is NOT before starting operations, but immediately AFTER shutting the machine down. While the engine is running, there is often enough air flow to keep the debris cool enough to not ignite. However 15-30 minutes after shutting down, the heat in the engine/exhaust will heat soak the debris high enough to ignite it. Have seen many machines that have burned after they have been worked and everyone has left for the day, only to be called later. Also, make sure you know both ways out of your machine in an emergency, even if the loader arms are blocking the door and the engine is dead from fire or other reasons. The loader can be lowered on all Cat machines without the engine running if you know how to do it. That will keep you from having to use the back window and crawling over the engine, if it really is on fire.
I would stay away from a ABC extinguisher because they are abrasive and a big mess when they go off. Ideally a water can would work especially with foam mixed into it because you can refill it and add foam easily (or use kitchen soap) but they are typically 2.5 gallons so mounting and storing it would be a pain on such a small machine. If it was up to me and my machine I would probably go with a 5 gallon rectangular aluminum tank like from northern tool mounted to the roof and pressurize it, then run with metal tubing and misting tips inside the engine compartment that can be discharged from within the cab. this would be safer for the operator and keeping the door closed will limit oxygen to the fire helping suppress it. another option that would work well and is small enough to mount inside the cab would be haltron which is similar to an ABC extinguisher but its a "clean agent" extinguisher so it doesn't leave a mess and won't damage electronics or the engine like an ABC could. I would also avoid a CO2 extinguisher because of the size and they usually only discharge for 25 seconds which is okay but not great if you have a deep seated fire like you would in mulch.
We have 2.5 gallon water fire extinguishers on everything in addition to any factory installed ABC extinguishers. I've had to use a water cannon 3 times now, both times the fire started on the machine i was able to get it under control and put it out. I haven't had to deal with any fires that have become oil fed yet, but i would think that a foaming agent in a water cannon would be better than an ABC for that too. Foam is what the professionals use on oil fed fires anyways.
Fighting a petroleum based fire with foam takes some special training as it usually has to be floated on to the fire in order to smother and extinguish it. There are also Class A type foams for fighting fires in wildland applications as well structural type fires like house fires. The best thing about using water to extinguish heavy equipment fires is that the water dissipates the heat where as the dry chemical and C02 does not, it is highly advisable not to try and tackle a vehicle fire if it is fully involved as the smoke can very quickly overcome a person not properly equipped with proper turnout gear and an SCBA. However back on topic there are foam products on the market made for home owners that come in containers with their own garden hose fittings and work much like a fertilizer sprayer that you use on your lawn. Ok now I found it though I recall coming across some companies that offer a kit of sorts that you can connect to a garden hose or 1" or 1.5" fire hose that comes with the eductor, special foam nozzle, and a container full of foam concentrate. http://www.scottyfire.com/equipment/applicator-equipment/8-gpm-foam-kit.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_fighting_foam
The first requirement for fires on equipment is a detailed insurance policy. Loss of equipment due to fire is a risk better carried by someone else. On the flip side of that, I have had a few machines in fleets where we were hoping a POS burned to total loss status. I've looked in a few skid steers and agree with all that there is no room to put the supply of retardant. One could put brackets on the outside back of the engine bay door and mount a tank there but I don't recall seeing many skid steers that didn't have damage due to backing into something. No matter which type of retardant you are using, it all has a cost and you don't want it just getting dropped on the ground because you backed into a tree. The other thing I've seen is that all the retardants I know of are corrosive to wiring. You spray that stuff through out your machine and you better get that stuff washed out before very long or you will be fighting electronic gremlins for the rest of the machine life. Probably the two best fire fighting tools are what we call a **** can and a standard number two shovel. The can holds five gallons of water, has back pack straps so you can carry them fairly easy and still use your hands and lastly a hose hooks to the bottom of the can and has a hand pump on the end. In most all instances dirt is the best and cheapest fire retardant there is. The supply is unlimited and said number two shovel the fastest way to apply. Keep them close to where you are working and you should have an even chance of saving your machine. I've seen a lot more fires put out with dirt and water than any of the commercial suppression systems.
On my 272c, I mounted an extinguisher in the back door and in the cab. I can't remember where I mounted the in-cab one (I sold it) but the one at the rear fit nicely in rear door using two bolts and metal extinguisher bracket. On my bobcat, I have an extinguisher in the cab and a spare in a holster. I've had a machine fire. Something melted a hole in the plastic fuel tank when I was mulching. The fuel sloshed around, caught fire, and two extinguishers wouldn't put it out. I worked like crazy to get the bolts out of the cab, lift the cab, and dumped my entire cooler's water into the machine smothering the fire. I was lucky that I was near my vehicle when I smelled something like burnt plastic and I was equally lucky that the fire hadn't yet flashed over when I was starting to look for problems. I know you didn't specifically ask but here's some free advice; The machine was practically new. I have been mulching for a dozen years and always keep my machine debris-free. We still don't know what got hot or how something got into the machine. Nothing of note was found during the fuel tank replacement. I did cover the tank with a fire-resistant welder's blanket and sealed up as many areas as I could. Cat pulls a lot of air through the inside of the machine. Sealing up the holes will help but then you have to watch for debris getting pulled onto the turbo or muffler or other hot areas. Dry brush, leaves, sticks, etc., will get even more dry and even if there isn't a spark, the gasses that are emitted as they "cook" can ignite or cause the debris to smolder which then provides an ignition source for other combustibles. I'm scared every time I'm mulching when it's dry and I spend an inordinate amount of time, each day, cleaning out my machine. Buy and use any "debris" kits that CAT offers BEFORE mulching and it will help but you will still need to find and seal up holes.