I think that's the first time I've tried to spell dilemma. So, my problem is, my truck works just fine almost all the time, and does almost everything I need it to do. I've got an old '85 International 1954 DT466 Allison At545 trans. I inframed the engine a few years ago, and she runs every time I ask er to, and we go. Slowly. Anybody who's been around these trucks for 5 minutes knows where I'm going next. The trans. They work great for school busses piddling around town lightly loaded, totally worthless everywhere else. Mine's a service truck, and I'm running about 15K-18K gross. Just going around town, where 90% of my work is, it's just fine. I'll get there. In traffic (we get that here in Denver), it's real nice to have an automatic. But she won't tow up even the slightest grade over maybe 40 mph. Towing in the mountains... fuggeddaboutit. I feel that this rig has lots of potential, but that auto trans just really limits it. The engine is maybe good for 160-180 hp? I'm not exactly sure. It's a slow poke, but it's dead reliable. I don't want to crank up the engine because I want to keep it running. I'd rather gear 'er. So I look into the Spicers, and I really like the idea of a 6+1 in there. Yes they're hard to shift sometimes, I drove a 5 speed once. But with the SAE2 bellhousing, and the built in parking brake, that would be a more or less bolt - on solution. I find that appealing. But the Spicers are uber crappy. I even found a guy who tried to sue Spicer / Dana over that 7 speed. Something about the 4-5 upshift makes em go pop. I don't need that. I have this Super10 sitting in the corner here at the shop. It needs a splitter, a bellhousing, and some bearings in the back box, and a shift tower. I figure that would be made ready for around $2K. I'd have to install a clutch (Id have to do that anyway). I'd pobably have to install a crossmember because that trans is heavy as sin. Id have to come up with a driveline brake. Not just a lock valve for the hydraulic brakes, those suck. A driveline brake similar to the drum that's on the end of the current trans. I like the synchronized part of the Spicer. I like the parking brake on the Spicer, and the simplicity of installation. I like the durability of the Eaton (If I install that thing, I'll never need another trans). I don't like having to double clutch the Eaton, and I really don't like the idea of managing a clutch brake. Yep dilemma. Whaddya think?
Leave it alone and stop worrying or drop in the Spicer and move on yea 10 speed Eaton would be a dream bit that's like 3 times the work and cost to put together Of you really want to get the best Spicer option a 5 with a 2 speed rear end would be the way to go
A have rebuilt a few of the 6+1 transmissions. A local freight company has a fleet of P+D trucks with a variety of manual transmissions. We do a fair bit of work for them. Wore out syncros and jumping out of gear are the main reason they bring us the transmissions. If I'm not mistaken the 6+1 gives you one more gear on top which may not be of much value with 160 horsepower. Fuller makes a few medium duty six speed transmissions. You might find one at a wrecking yard with the park brake. You might even find all the needed clutch pedal and linkage pieces as well. Plus a flywheel.
Hp doesn’t make it climb. Torque does. I used to be a die hard manual transmission guy, but I’ve got 4 cranes now with torque converter transmissions, and I really like them. Three of them are grossing 55-65,000, with allisons, one is over 95,000, with a ZF. None of them are winning a drag race, but the lighter ones are surprisingly peppy, considering what they weigh. But all 3 of the small ones are 300-340hp with 1,000-1,100ft lbs of torque. The Dt is never going to be a sprightly speed demon, no matter what transmission you put behind it. I would leave it alone, it’s going to be a lot of work to convert for very little gain. My shop hill, and a bunch of roads around town are 12-16 percent grades, and I don’t miss the shifting one bit. All my road trucks are still manuals. If you still want to swap, check your rear gear ratio also, a lot of Allison’s come with super low rear axle ratios, because the transmission has such a high OD. You may have to change rear gears or whole axle to get any road speed. Your Dt is just like my old7.3 fords, they are super reliable, but the trade off is they just don’t perform like the new trucks.
^ and Denver is not helping at all^ That was my first takeaway. If the transmission can handle more power I would do what I could to make more.
How about an Allison MT-653? Those are a real Allison. With some digging, you can find them with the tail shaft drum brake.
Run it till the AT545 gives out, then swap in a a MT643 or 653. I’ve got two trucks that are both about 180-190hp, one has a 5+2 the other an Allison MT643. Grossing about 35k the truck with the auto is certainly slower, but were talking maybe 5-10mph less on the big 15-20% grades. They are both slow.
You would need around 8 gears to have the same performance in a manual as an auto and you still ain't going up hills fast. 330 HP N14 with a Allison 750 drd (4 road gears) moving 70,000#+ up hills here
I didn’t even consider another auto! That 653 has one more gear than the 545, and has a lockup in 5th (maybe 3rd and 4th too, dunno yet). That ought to be good for dropping those temps a little if the TC isn’t just spinning making heat. Also probably good for a few more MPH on the highway. Nice easy install too. Hmm… imma think about that one. Thanks!
The first gear in a 653 is manually selected, it starts out in 2nd gear. Think of it as a low hole.
That's how my 750 drd is. First gear is around 8-9:1 and has to be stopped to shift in or out of it. The rest gears is geared like a 740 with 2nd around 4:1.ive taken some big hills with my beast. If you have a sae 1 flywheel and don't spin over 2500, it would be best to get a 750
There's also Allison 3000 that could be fitted with an engine controller
There's a core MT654 not far from me. I called about it. If it has an SAE2 bellhousing on it, I think I'm going to go for that. The guy doesn't know if it has an SAE 1 or 2, he's going to call me back. I can still get rebuild parts for it. If that doesn't work out, I'll go find a 653.
I have a 653 but Its probably a sae 1 because it's on a l10
A external extra transmission cooler would help, if you are fighting trans. temps. Both for the extra oil and the cooling. Mount it up in front of the radiator if there's room, so the fan is pulling through it.
It looks like the L10 could have had SAE 1 or 2, and from what I could find, the 653 only came in SAE2. Maybe you and I will chat soon about it
Haha nice, supposed to be good I'll have to look at it some more. I'm pretty sure it's not a 750. They had the biggest feeder on that truck
That's how my 653 is set up, it's on the same loop as the filter
The yard just got back to me. They have a rebuildable SAE2 MT 654 with a brake. I’m doing it as soon as I get back into town in a few days. Awesome. Maybe then I’ll be able to crank up that 466 a little and tow anything without going as slow as Moses in a ‘58 Buick.
An MT643 would probably serve you just as well as a 653. They are essentially the same minus the extra deep first gear which you may not even use. I believe they both are rated for trucks up to 78,000 gross. I have the MT643 in an IH 4700 with a 190hp DT466 and it works good towing my backhoe, dozer etc, which combined weight is way more than what you'd be seeing in your service truck. It locks up in 4th gear at a certain speed/rpm which makes it feel like it has 5 gears. Also provides good engine braking.
I hauled freight back in the 80s in a Ford with a 290 Cummins and 6 speed Spicer. Here in the northeast I'd frequently get gearbound. I think you'll be just as disappointed with it as the automatic. The same company had Fords with the 290 and 10 speed R/R which were much better suited for our area.
I'm with @MG84 . MT 643/653 won't make much difference, but it sounds like you found a reasonable transplant already. We haul grain with an L8000 with a 7.8L Ford engine and MT653. If the grain cart driver gets carried away, that truck will gross over 60,000 pounds. While you know the weight is there, it'll run up to 55mph just fine. It doesn't get there fast, but it gets there. My L9000 has a similar sized box, same engine, MT643 and has crossed scales at similar weights before. It also got the load hauled just fine. I've never used the 1st gear in the L8000. Never needed it. Also, both of these Fords have external oil coolers in front of the radiator.
The 6xx allison is direct drive, right? The 3060 is double overdrive, 4th is direct, 5 and 6 are overdrive. I've driven them with 8.3 and they seem to lock up the torque converter in the lower gears so it almost feels like 12 speeds. They are completely electronic, BUT they were put behind engines with a P pump, so I know there is no engine computer, maybe not even a throttle position sensor? Kind of seems like that, because they will sit at shifting speed and not shift until you wind it out, but put it in economy mode and it shifts sooner and lets the torque work and shift right through the gears, more like a new International that wants to shift way low (supposedly locked in performance mode, but I have my doubts). The 3060 might be an option with transmission controllers from behind a mechanical engine, no idea on which pattern it came in.
You should be able to run a electronic Allison on a mechanical engineering with an engine controller with or without meCan so the engine controller can tell the trans what the engine is doing. Auto with a lockup is almost the same as 2 gears.
Yes the 6XX are all direct. I had really hoped for an OD trans because I’d like to go a little faster than 6O on the highway, but to have a strong auto that’s not going to drive me crazy installing, I’ll settle. Maybe I can fiddle with the rear gears if it means enough to me. The 654 is probably overkill, but I really like the idea of locking up every gear. That 545 that’s in there isn’t even rated for the meager torque the 466 can generate, so simply driving into the mountains with no load except the body, that trans really heats up, and I have to slow down even more to keep it from overheating. I have one customer who lives up a such a steep windey road, I won’t even take this rig up there. It has a cooler built into the radiator, which probably doesn’t help. Someone mentioned an external cooler, which is definitely part of the plan. The 654 is, as I understand no longer made, but I checked around and I can still get a master rebuild kit, and most hard parts are still available new or aftermarket as well, so I’m going in. I may have to change the flexplate, but other than that, it’s reportedly just bolt-on, and I dig that! Allison has what’s called a HUB account where I can get technical data. I applied, waiting to hear back. Maybe all the tech details are up there, but if not, I’ll buy a book. All in all, that super 10 would have cost $2K to get ready to install, and a clutch and driveline brake, I probably would be $5K all said and done. I think ill be at $3K with this Allison, and I’ll be able to sip my pumpkin spice latte while going through traffic
$600 for a 653, cooler, filter, and lines
I appreciate the offer, but I’d still want to go through the trans to make sure it’s ready, which means at least a soft parts overhaul. Not to mention a long day of driving and $200 in gas. If there wasn’t a rebuildable 654 an hour from my shop, we’d be dealin’. Thanks though man.
Make sure you get a torque converter that’s a match for your engine output. They are NOT all the same
Torque converters are different for engine brands as well. Get a trans from the same engine is best. Also make sure the trans is rated for the same rpm as your engine.
The old Allisons can have the valve body recalibrated by an Allison shop that has the test bench where they bolt the valve body with its tubes to the machine and adjust the pressures and shift points for your application.
Can they set them to just be locked in that gear like a manual valve body?
You do that with the shift lever. Whatever gear you put it in, that’s the highest gear the trans will shift in to.
No, I mean you put it in a gear and it will only be in that gear, no other gear will be shifted for any reason.
No automatic I’m aware of does that. Not sure though.
The newer electronic shift ones can, but the program has to be set for it. We have a Volvo with an MD3060P. I was reading the Allison manual for it and the end user programming options are almost limitless to allow the transmission to be tailored to each individual application. The only drawback is you have to have a laptop with the Allison software to do it. Our truck came with a PTO already set up, but the previous owners had it programmed to cut out if engine rpm exceeds 1100rpm. Thats a pain when you are dumping silage and your cycle time is neutered by the program. I get not having a PTO overspeed, or burning it up by leaving it on while driving, but none of our other trucks have a PTO speed limit, and we've never burned one of them up either. On a side note, I use the manual mode on our 2012 F250 when pulling fertilizer tanks or the grain head. In D, the Ford truck doesn't downshift early enough when you come into a hill causing rapid loss of ground speed. Switching to manual, I control when it shifts, and how far. I'm never towing far, so I tend to stay down a gear and keep the engine speed up for better performance, which tends to be less shifting overall in my application.
Any manual valve body does such as pickup transmissions, the Allison clbt 4460, dual mode transmissions such as Allison 750 and Allison 4500 ofs. My brothers company can program shift points on new Allison's, I might try to get a cheap 3000 or 4000 and program it for manual mode, much cheaper than a 4500 ofs
We use a 1990 ford F-7000 flatdeck (Brazilian 6.6l/Allison 545 to haul our 5 ton Deere 50d high into the mountains;including 10km up a mine road with very steep grades/terrible ruts…at this task when kept at 2300rpm it performs very well. The 2 speed rear diff has a low range of 8.17…the engine has a rated hp of 170. However the highway component of the 380km trip is at 90km/h at 2800rpm (tightened governor springs 2 clicks). In a more urban setting probably not an ideal setup! Too many times down the little fort hill (hwy 24) in a Dodge 1 ton… no holdback, no exhaust brake even; led us to a local auction purchase of a 1999 international 9200 with a cat c12….pretty small engine for a real trucker; but with 4.3 diff and a 13 speed really nice for our application. A 3 stage jake (even on a small cat) was a real safety feature for us. We used this setup last year on a 5700km round trip to some mining claims in the Yukon. Fuel mileage was actually pretty good as the towed load was only 15,000lbs. Maybe keep truck as is and consider the purchase of a heavier duty truck as an addition to your fleet? This worked in our case. Good luck!
Ours may be “special case” As we got a 51” Sleeper single Axle truck for less than the cost of the last 48re tranny rebuild on our Dodge pickup. The sleeper was really useful for our work in Atlin BC as it meant we could haul The mini-digger and have accommodation all in one trip. This unit has a diff lock so allowed us to travel 17km up an old mining road to our claim. The potholes did yield a very slow travel speed! 1.5 hours!