Has anyone here lived through Californias regulatory spin up when they began to regulate off road equipment the way they do today? I’m curious to know how it was introduced and then implemented to the fleet owners. I do not believe where I am located is in any serious risk of seeing the same thing happen in my state but fortunes turn quickly in politics it would seem. I’m not seeking to stir the pot regarding is it right or wrong to do what CA did, only what to watch for if it does start to come our way legislatively and how CA handled it when they did pass the regulations. As I understand it they did offer to pay to update engines to be Tier 2/3 to offset the cost of the work to become compliant. Is that right? Curious to know more about this for folk who lived it.
Thing I don't get is I see lots of CA machines of old selling or rather priced for top $, and I know they don't have retrofit top tier engines in them.
California is in its own little world, has been for 50yrs or so. The US economy couldn’t bear the cost of outlawing all ‘non-compliant’ trucks and equipment.
They are trying really hard to do it in Canada, and it is driving the country into the toilet
In the Greater Vancouver ( BC) area, the regional government phased out older engines in construction and stationary commercial equipment by a yearly permit. Older T0, T1, T2 equipment payed an incredibly higher permit price than newer equipment. You don’t see many older machines around here any more. Cam
I forget where I read it, but I recall that for a while there many pieces of large iron, 657, 980 etc., were getting sold out of state to “non regulated” states like Arizona or Nevada for example. Can’t say what they brought but there was and still is a market for them where they can be moved to without out breaking the bank.
That sounds like what I imagine would be how a legislator could get something like this through in a state that is still more politically balanced than tilted towards one side or the other that may favor heavy regulation. Smoke screen it with a permit and fee scheme to make it palatable without saying exactly what they’re trying to do which is kill off older engines.
I was under the impression most of Canada was unregulated? Am I misinformed?
This is at the heart of my question. We have some older equipment (631D’s,D9G,D8K,D155-5) that isn’t exactly up to snuff for a company that makes a living off needing to have near constant up time and quick parts replacement but our old machines, they still get the job done when we need them to. Trying manage the overhead and accompanying schedule needed to support making payments that large month to month gives me heart burn just thinking about it. I guess that why they say construction; “It’s not for the feint of heart…”
I’m in the same boat. I’ve got a few new pieces of equipment, the stuff that get used everyday, but also have older equipment. It’s the stuff that I use a couple times a month unless I’m on a big project where it gets pressed into daily service. Still makes me good money, but not enough to justify the cost of new.
All the regulations hit California right as the economic crash hit. So they were constantly changing the rules. The rules were complicated, number of pieces in the fleet, horsepower per piece, rentals, hours run per year, special exemptions for ag/forestry and what county it was operated in. The rules for all these items changed all the time for years and are still changing. There was and is a lot of non compliance for those that can get away with it. That is my impression of what happened.
If they just left things alone time would do what they want to get done. I dont want to get a political deal started but its like the guy that wanted to ramp up gun control but instead he made everyone want a gun . I think he was getting kick backs from gun manufacturers.
Climate change is about power and only having the elite being able to do business and has nothing to do with saving the environment. If it was about saving the environment bottled water would be heavily regulated first.
Thank you for the reply. This is what I was curious to know about. I know in my time with Kiewit you could tell a machine that was at some point operating in CA by the red sticker to display its emission registration number on the side of the engine compartment (typically). This description sounds painful to manage. hopefully it never comes this far south... Did you have a role in helping manage this process with your outfit at the time?
I was doing trucks at the time and it was similar but simpler and also faster accelerated in trucks. They changed (relaxed) the rules as they went along. Some places just did nothing and as usual they came out on top, for a while. One outfit that had already spent millions to comply when the rules suddenly relaxed at the last minute when the state realized they were not going to get compliance, sued the state and won that they should have continued on the original compliance path, thus harming their competitors who did not comply on the timeline I don't know what I think about that deal. It was an ugly mess as usual.
H2o not the problem, 6000 plus jets loaded with tons of fuel at any one time over the US is.
You don't think millions of plastic water bottles thrown away every day doesn't hurt?
Thing about this is--------------------it wasn't just sad sack california businesses--it effected thousands and thousands and thousands of out of state trucking companies. * My company had a rule in dispatchers office for brokers calling wanting us to haul into california. {The only way a Tate truck will cross Oregon state line into California, is if the driver is held hostage with a knife held to his throat} which would usually end with broker hanging up never to call again.
Last time a friend had a truck shipment from ca, it was double than anything else he had ever had shipped
Not as heavy as the US, but new stuff can't be tampered with, they tax us on our carbon usage, and there is a push to eliminate fossil fuels (Never gonna happen) sooner than later.
Mildly interesting story, when I was working in Tampa on a reservoir project the owner basically made us stop buying bottled water. Any time they could find “trash” they’d write up a quality incident report. Got bad enough that management started giving talks to us lower level guys out on the grade to push us into forcing compliance with the men making sure water bottles were collected and trashed “correctly”. That was about as effective as herding cats, for good reason. In the end they just bought what seemed like 100ea 5 gallon water jugs, spent probably $30k to build a ice and water shipping container and hired probably 3 guys onto the safety staff to clean, fill and just ride around on the Deere Gators we had to distribute them and collect them. Project engineer said it would save money because of the spend we’d save on buying pallets of bottled water. I never believed it.
Our superintendent drove over the road after things fell apart in 2008/9. He told me that the truck he wasn’t legal to run into CA after around 2012 if I recall correctly. It’s was powered with an older Cat 3406B that was turned up and was pretty obvious that it was when he fed the fuel to it. No way to really blend in…
Both of my trucks came from California. I got an 86 Freightliner FLC in 2021 when the first round was implemented. Then, in Jan 2023 I bought an 03 Freightliner Classic with a detroit S60 from another guy in California. Then I also bought a 710G backhoe out of Santa Cruz CA that was gotten rid of because of CARB regs. I have nothing to add other than its a bunch of power BS. Also, look up into the sky, you will see chemtrailing, substantial evidence various groups are seeding the atmosphere, and knowing the current condition of things, the motives are likely malicious.
On the agriculture end----one thing that is a multimillion dollar business annually in the land of milk and honey is apiary's hauling their bees for pollination in the business of growing nuts. One apiary here-some 35,000 hives, spread over 5 states. When the carb levels reached the 2015 level this apiary took two 2007 Pete 379's with ISX Cummins to Cummins to have them retro fitted with DPF/Def emissions to comply. Cummins nailed them some $30,000 each--problem was both systems didn't work. Cummins backed out and the honey farm ate it. Both trucks got gutted and just ran the northern tier. They operate 8 class 8's, those two were sold along time back now.
Guys around here buy bottled water and then want to share it and have you buy it too. I have a 5 gallon jug and put free water in it and I don't cramp up in the summer because it hold like 2 flats of water in it. Company buys ice.
There was a time that some trucks were running around with those Cummins Cleaire filters installed and gutted with a letter behind the seat from the powers that be about being exempt because the filters did not work. It was a huge fiasco.
That's not what these systems were, a complete currant system was installed. I worked on these trucks, both were removed and deleted back to early 2002 ISX. The systems are still laying in a scrap pile at their shop. Plus I was incorrect low on price, it was $40,000 each.
Yeah but I bet PLASTIC KIDS TOYS, AND POWER TOOLS like chainsaws, drills etc. has those water bottles beat, then there are all the plastic parts on cars that are tossed as well. Those water bottles are a small fraction of the plastic waste problem. The real sad part is we all know that all plastic is from crude oil aka petroleum, so I say use all this plastic garbage as the fuel it really is. This plastic H2o bottle problem should not be a concern in the US as we have a recycle bin we put them in, so leave our bottles alone here and deal with the countries that do such polluting.
Lol hit a nerve!
Just on our news as a Edge notification, 21 states are now sueing EPA for forced mandates, seems CFR rules are treated as laws but were implemented outside of the base rules to do so. Any Coded Rule has to meet criteria against Excessive Cost upon Consumer, Business or Industry, arrives too severe becomes a mandate to legislate. That has been ignored for awhile and is headed back home as a penalty.
Plastic unlike other materials can be only recycled so many times. So yeah you are going to feel great recycling that water bottle they claim will be recycled through greenwashing initiatives by oil companies who help promote this idiocracy. Why, cause they profit off it, that plastic is going right into a landfill, only 1% of all plastic is ever recycled twice.
Most "recycled" materials goes to a landfill, I think it's like 70% as recycling centers only have so much capacity, they do have to start somewhere. Good to hear, iml don't know when scotus is taking on Chevron deference but when that goes we will be in a better shape, as it stands right now in 2027 truck prices will double.
That non recyclable plastic needs to be turned into fuel like mentioned above. Total polluting waste dumping it in a land fuel. I still bet there is way more Kids toys than water bottles, as far as plastic pollution goes. I'd like to see the containers of old used again for quarts of motor oil. Look at that huge plastic waste problem.
As I returned to trucks after retired had to laugh at the nonsense. DEF in plastic jugs, wrapped in Cardboard by the absolute Truckload as empties headed to the dumps. Urea made by refining processes of Natural Gas with the other product CO2. Uses gallons of water to sustain in solution inside Plastic saddle tanks with all plastic components or supporting materials due to the severity of corrosive affect of the crap. Sensors that cannot last, there or in the severe heat of the DOC systems. Specialized expensive catalyst beds mined at serious depletion of minerals, DPF units to be exchanged for renewed units cooked at over 2000 degrees to clear the contents using natural gas furnaces. The insane are running the asylum. Who in their right mind would concoct such a friggen mess?
Any time me or anyone can pull something out of the trash and reuse it and never have a problem that thing should be reused for what it was made for. Like oil jugs quarts,gallons,2gallon jugs and a million other things.
I use a cleaned plastic DEF jug for diesel fuel. Makes it easy to fill filters. I keep several full of bulk engine oil. Gimme my medal!
One of our local sled dealers used to have 2 stroke oil in a barrel and would refill your used jugs for a fair bit cheaper price than buying a new gallon jug of it.
Wish was that way for everyone but the truth is still there, truck loads of these head to the dumps weekly. I reuse jugs mostly as catch basins for oil seals or catching dirt wanting to keep off surfaces. Do not have anyone selling bulk oils close by where have considered ordering my common used stock by 30gal barrel loads. Biggest concerns is cross contaminates even after cleaned jugs. Plus the waste of cleaning them in soap solufions and rinses.
If only all these laws and rules were to actually reduce emissions.
This is a great place to start chipping and shredding. *
Your right they do make a good engine for a portable crusher or other portable recycling machine. Is that what you meant?
THOSE I agree with!! Mighty 2 Strokes have no purpose anymore. Never was any love lost while working on Driptroits, made me considerable money but also considerable grief as well ruined clothing as NOTHING removes DD Oil Stains. Electronic Engines came into their own in the 90s, all essentially ended up Four Stroke and gained MASSIVE Values for HP/Torque and Fuel Economy against loads hauled, only to be targeted by the powers that be as to destruction by ANY and ALL Means starting with CARB. NO2, CO2, Particulate levels all Miniscule but by targeting small owners and independents the ability to fight back disappeared against the CFR applied rules. Just intent to destroy by regulating to death.
End of the road for all including the yellow ones, the area was five times this size. It's fun watching one being snipped. Has a real nice popping crunching type sound then a little oily blood runs out as it's dropped on the mountain of others. *
I have two 671's and one will be used for stationary power someday. It's the definition of cheap and dirty.
What is the Bad of the Cummins X Class? Seems as they have a massive fail the old one is plucked a replacement hung. Cummins STL said old ones are shipped away where only getting New builds.
The issue with the ISX is/was in the cams/cylinder head design. 2010 the ISX was redesigned with one camshaft. Some are excellent others were born under a bad star.
DM--here's the thing---I would venture to say not many on here have spent much time walking through a yard like this, all the carnage tells a story--and one story is, there are/ were allot of yellow blocks like this one with the blue highlight that had holes in them in roughly the same spot. Series 60's it seamed most had holes in the area of #2 or 3#. There were some ISX's with a section of block about 12"x 20" blown out. The B Models were/are good engines-but not that good. *
Sad to see 3406 blocks in there. Good place for the Ford/ navistar 6.0 and 6.4 though.
Allot of 3408's laying at one corner, can't save them all.
Hey now don't lug the 6.0 in there
NOOOOOO! Just seeing those.........I almost creamed my pants. I made a hell of a living on those for many years.
Funny thing is I took that photo some 7-8 years ago, 85% was snipped. Since then it has completely refilled.
UGH....now I wanna throw up.
Just stick me a L10 in the back of that Ranger and send it over here before they snip it. Need at least 300HP one.
Can remember as CA subsidy bought up old Trade In HE, Oxy lanced engine blocks and base frames so of no use but scrap. Was big news for awhile. Thanks for info on the ISX, X15s seem to have a better rep but not by much. The IH MAXXFORCE mid 2000s were grenades on rubber, that I have heard from the Utility garage people I worked with.
Ah----It's great fun watching the snip--most six cylinder blocks give out a nice POP as the shear mashes through, black goo dribbling. All day long one after another, axle housings make a nice noise also. I was there last May right after I retired, they were working cleaning a row of old Macks and IH's. Operator grabbed a 70's Superliner Mack, snipped that cab off snipped the frame like twigs reached out grabbed that E9 V8 pile and sheared the heads off then snipped block and crank in one mighty POP. You could hear that old Dog howling with each cut.
Should note, our c15 showed the most marking on the number 4 rod journal and number 5 main, Was pretty superficial and cleaned off easily but a Low Oil Volume with the bypass and relief poppets showing excess wear was indicated. FOT at over 180 degrees oil pressure just two days ago at idle 50lbs, just under 80 at 1800. Need to get something attached behind it and work it awhile.
Like I said, maybe on other forums, that if you do a job working on things you love, but it is for someone else's business, you learn to hate it. Oh that 3406 the only use I had for them was to build a wood stove out of one. Never did but sure wanted to back then. There is so many not so good things about all the different brands of engines out there. They can all have issues. Especially when they have some difficult something that makes working on them not fun at times, yet the manufacture refuses to change that even when they do other major upgrades to the engine. Yeah its sad to see the good old stuff destroyed like that, just to be turned into some more china parts. Just makes it more expensive and difficult to get parts or complete units if you want or need one for something. I'd rather see all the disposable ill designed, aluminum junk engines they put in every car nowadays go into the smasher.
Everyone of those engines were junk nothing to rebuild-if there was a possibility they would have saved them-they are in the business to make money. Can't save everything.