Yair...seeing as the U.S. and Australian way of doing things...and country size are similar I have always wondered why the Americans have the love affair with styleside pickups. For a work truck a (say) 4x4 F250 would appear to be as useless as t*ts on a bull. It's high and every thing has to go on through the tailgate. Over here most everything workwise is trayback drop sides. Any comments? I asked on another thread but I am curious as to the cost in the U.S. of a three litre turbo diesel 4x4 one tonner with an aluminium tray.
Over here most everything workwise is trayback drop sides. Any pics what does the truck look like??
the only thing we have here close to a 3 liter turbo diesel in one ton would the along the lines of an isuzu cabover. great work trucks. the smaller pick up style are not available with the smaller diesels yet. we can hope they will be one day. it wouldn't bother me to be able to have a work truck that got good fuel milage
The majority of pickups aren't sold as work trucks here. They're used as daily drivers and status symbols. The manufacturers are in a horsepower war to sell their trucks, in America more power means more testosterone. I bought a pickup chassis /cab and put an aluminum flatbed on it for my business. It works better for what I do.
Dang it Steve, please quit saying what I'm gonna say before I say it! Most of the "work" done by heavy-duty pickups in the US could be done by an Escort station wagon. The main "heavy duty work truck" selling points seem to be: 1. a bed smaller than the trunk of my '68 oldsmobile 2. an engine with more horsepower than my Macks 3. styling to make it look like it can drive over cars 4. a soft ride 5. a luxury car's interior I would love to have one of the practical trucks (or utes) sold in other countries by the same makers that sell puffed up fluff here. I bet I am now a pariah here
Yair...thanks fellers. I kind of thought that may be the case but it's refreshing that you would actualy come out and actualy say it. A few of the big rigs get over here of course but they're pretty scarce...you can drive on the highway all day and never see one. Most times they are under a fifth-wheeler...an ideal application. Talking to a bloke with a Cummins powered Ram and he said it had cost him about a hundred and twenty grand. Dont have any pictures I can post Dusty Roads but if you Google "Landcruiser ute images" you will see the truck that the Australian outback runs on. They used to be about a four litre six but for some inexplicable reason are now only available with a five(ish) litre V8. They pretty much are seen as top of the class with the Nissan Patrol (now 3 litre, down from 4.2). Most everything else is three litre or smaller. Common rail/turbo/aftercooled of course and run at under ten litres per hundred kilometers.
Pretty tough looking trucks,I like it.:cool2
Let me Google that for you.
OMG! I clicked on that link...and digger was controlling my computer! Now that's scary.
digger, that should have come with a warning. i am far too drunk for that.
Pickups: yEAH... so it would seem... sure makes it easy... :thumbsup ↑ ↑ ↑... Ya' neglected to turn my caps. lock off, though... :cool2 OCR... lol
I don't know from the pics I saw on that google search those tinker toy wouldn't haul my lunch box let alone the stuff I have piled in a full size truck.
Yair...why you need all that stuff Dozerboy? Work conditions here much the same as 'States side, the mines are just as big...a Cat. eleven is the same rig over here. We manage. Those Tojo's and most of the four cylinder diesels are rated to tow 3000kg or there abouts. If you need some thing bigger you get a "propper" truck...generaly that means Japanese or European. Intill you get into the heavy rigs I'm afraid the American stuff just won't cut it in the rough.
I'm leaving aside the freakout of digger controlling my computer :bash This is a quote from the very first site on digger's search; they were comparing a landcruiser ute and an f-350 that was jacked up and customized to the point of being unusable for any kind of work. I just thought this comment was interesting in light of our present conversation: "That little toyota that was posted would go anywhere and probably places that huge Penis Extension Ford could not." :salute
I don't know how you did that but you definitely have techy skills:notworthy Kinda scary Here is my truck thats why I said the utes look tough,guess I could put some add ons on mine like the snorkel but it never rains here:Banghead Gets me where I need to go:drinkup
Looks like gulf country truck but looks preety cool.By the way who is the manufacturer of this truck and model and make year of this truck.
Yair...still can't get my head around this one. An outsider looking in sees that you have 250 to 300hp vehicles that are called "one tonners"...and are rated to tow six or seven tons? When does a pickup become a truck...that is to say is an F250 a pickup when it has a style side body and then turn into a "truck" if its fitted with a flatdeck? Interesting to hear the different opinions. Picture of my new ride. This ones a Mazda BT50, you can buy the same thing at the Ford shop badged as a "Ranger". All the manufacturers offer similar rigs. They come in single cab extra cab and dual cab and have the usual grades and options. These days even the bottom of the range cheapseats such as mine come with air, electric glass and mirrors, crash bags and a decent enough sound system. They come in at about thirty grand with the three litre diesel (118Kw). You can option up a twin cab to well over forty thousand if you are that way inclined. As I mentioned they are legal to around 3000Kg with a braked trailer. Standard tray size for a single cab is 6x8 feet.
Yeah, I have the same problem getting my head around US descriptions of so called trucks. In Australia one tonne means a payload of one tonne and 2-3 tonne towing. And the cost!! Man I see a truck as a means to an end, carting something from A to B and not just me. You can see in the pic below my secondhand Daihatsu tipper & s/h trailer with home built crusher, my s/h JCB backhoe and my s/h Toyota Echo just to move my arse around cheaply. All this plant and vehicles, which can earn me reasonable dollars, would cost less than the equivalent of one new US style so called "truck", which here we would call a large pickup for a man with small pen!s. Now I may have more confidence in my manhood than many of my US compatriots, but on economic grounds how can you afford these so called trucks? Especially as daily drivers! In Australia we have a big range of Japanese cabover trucks and some Euro ones too which seem to be way more reliable and durable than the output from Ford, GM and co. And way more economical as well. And go metric. I don't want to have to keep figuring out what 10,000 pounds is in kilos AusDave
A 1 ton has a legal payload of around 1 ton can tow 12,000+ odd pounds. I use mine (F350) for everything from driving myself, my kids, plowing, hualing gravel or firewood, and just about anything else you can think of. I had a ranger it was a fine truck off road but there is no room in back to hual much of anything it is considerd a 1/4 ton truck not much payload. I have come off the scales at the pit with my 1 ton grossing 13 thousand pounds with the airbags I added at 100psi. Wouldn't recomend it though No need to do that anymore though now I have a 550. As for truck size equating to penis size one has nothing to do with the other. And getting kinda sick of hearing you aussies.:usa
Yair...Ausdave. The cost. That was the original point of this thread. I think you'll be surprised. C'mon fellers, what does (say) a basic 4x4 diesel F150 cost down at the Ford shop? Not intending to upset anyone...just pointing out there is a different way of doing things in different places. As far as equipment (particularly second hand equipment) goes you blokes in the 'States are laughing. An equivalent track-hoe or little dozer can be double the price here and from what I see on some threads on this board our hourly rates are much the same as yours...and dieso pretty much is double.
This is where I bought my currt truck back in 04. No 150's listed but you get the idea. http://www.truckpaper.com/list/list.aspx?ETID=1&pcid=2000711535&bcatid=27&dlr=1
Hi Scrub Puller, this isn't a basic F-150, but one with all the bells and whistles. http://www.lancecunninghamford.com/new/Ford/2010-Ford-F-150-ed8b41830a0a0002000ee9207fd6bf9f.htm It appears to me that Aussies use their trucks in their functional manner, meaning built to work out of. I think in the states, pickups are just an extension of cars the auto makers build. Hard to say when, but it's arguable that by the time the 1950's came around, US auto makers began putting a lot of emphasis into body style of autos with each new year model, each auto maker trying to make their cars with more eye appeal than their competition. That trend remains today with the auto makers. Pickups, on the other hand, were built for work back in the 30's right up to the late 50's. Then the auto makers started building pickups with body style like they did their cars. Chevy had the Fleetside, Ford had the Styleside. Yes, you could say this move took pickups away from their intended role...to work out of, and instead pickups were more about style and comfort. But we kinda embraced the improvements coming in pickups, to the point you'd be hard pressed to find even a basic pickup now that doesn't have air conditioning. But we still work out of them. Every day you see guys moving around with their work gear in the bed of the truck. Sure, if the task requires more load or room, we'll get an appropriate truck for the job. We use our pickups as a basic hauler that still offers the feel, ride, and comfort more akin to an auto, but able to do a heck of a lot more than an auto.
No to metric. We should outlaw it hear in the states. Jason
Hey, metric you will find very easy once you stop converting. It is actually a system. every measurment has a relationship. like one liter of water weighs one kg, Or how about water freezes at zero than....hang on boils at 100. Yup just a couple examples looks like it was thought out. How many inches in a mile. Can figger that out. centmeters in a kilometer. 100000, just like that no figering LOL muzy
Yair...thanks fellers. I'll have to have a think about all that. Atco, that F series is a lot of truck for the money. Just guessing but I think you would be looking at plus sixty grand here...they have to do a conversion of course so they can drive on the right side of the road...which is the left side...if you get my drift. Surprised at the tow rating though...2500kg, I thought it would have been more. You nailed it muzy. The metric system is simpler but us old(ish) blokes still tend to think in PSI and feet and inches...old conventions die hard.
You cannot get a diesel F150 in the states yet, so I would say priceless! What make and size engine can you get down under and how many MPG?
Actually Scrub Puller, the F150 is designed more for a comfort ride, more like an auto, but still be able to haul light loads that an auto won't do. Low tow rating is because of soft suspension and lighter weight components. You would want a 250, 350, or 450 if you want payload or towing capacity. The F450 gets you up around 24,400 lb (11,067 kg) tow rating if I'm reading the chart right.
If I can add a little balance here: We could probably, for the sake of learning something here, do without penis size discussions, and keep it objective. Scrub Pullers discussions and points about US style pickups is a common theme of discussion in the down Under when talking about "utes" and small trucks...and realistically its fuel economy which dictates the Aussie markets. However, for mind, the exact same type of argument can be levelled at the Aussie market. Our roads are full of dual cab 4 x 4's (utes) which are nothing more than status items. Builders (GC's) seem to buy a new one every year. It almost always is black with chrome wheels, tinted windows, chrome rollover bar and you can hardly fit a wheelbarrow in the back. They are "as flash as Michael Jackson" but about as useful for "real work" as a scrub rake on a tricycle. These vehicles will rarely go "off road" if at all and then its more likely to be on an annual holiday. In most cases a 2 wheel drive tray back equivalent can be purchased for half the price, with twice the pay load and better economy/maintenance for a "Daily Driver". What also makes this rather ironic for the Aussie Market is these flash dual cab utes are around the $40 to $50k range and are incapable of carrying a tonne. For the same money you can be a plethora of solid Japanese trucks (even with factory tippers) in the 2-3 tonne range. A 12' bed is common on these handy trucks. It all comes down to some people purchase for "needs" and some purchase for "wants"...and maybe some purchase because of the size of their..................bank balance!. A good mate of mine is an electrician and had a Nissan Navara dual cab ute. The Turbo Diesel (the most powerful 4cyl diesel in its class at the time...so the advertising said) was difficult to live with, terrible turbo lag and the power came on all in rush then it ran out of puff in a second. He had racks for all his conduit and stuff and towed a dual axle trailer. The vehicle was a good compromise for him and it worked for a living. It went Monday to Friday on building sites, always fully loaded. On weekends his family where mad keen on off-roading so it was always dirty and getting used for its intended purpose. He was an exception to the norm though and the Australian obsession with large "tough" 4 x 4's....that never go off-road (we call them Toorak Tractors), is probably no different to the American's Iconic "Trucks" with big V8's. You could argue that the Aussies do it a little more economically I have owned 4 x 4's all my adult life but I currently have a 4 tonne Japanese truck for work and the missus has a Subaru wagon for the kids and holidays. It works for us. My next purchase will be about function and value.
Trick to value is to let someone else own it first. My base model f350 new was probably 20k+ new... 4years later, little over half that... I do fancy those alum. flatbeds... not giving up my 7.3 diesel though sorry...
Lol...I reckon if I could afford to run one I'd probably say the same thing.
Squiz, I guess I was the first to use the "p-word" though two points in my defense: I was quoting another site's comment I found amusing; and our exalted founder said horsepower equated to testosterone levels first. What I was talking about was the amazing amount of people I know who's pickup size is intimately connected to their self-esteem. I am frequently suprised by the things people tell me about their big pickups even though I'm not interested. One man actually asked if I really thought my 45,000 lb (20,454 kilos to stop that discussion ) excavator would outpull a 4x4 f-250 diesel. Another man told me he knew the same machine would pull my loaded 4x2 C-30 service truck but if he got his empty 4x4 f-150 stuck we would have to get a diesel 4x4 f-350 to get it out. I own 9 trucks from a '93 shortbed Toyota pickup to an '86 Toyota 1-Ton to a Chevy C-30 to a quad-axle Mack lowboy tractor, (the C-30 is a service truck, not a pickup). Each truck has something it is best for. There is not much that a pickup hauls that the Toyota 1-Ton won't and it has more bed space than a "full-size" shortbed. It carries 4000 lbs (1818 kilos) effortlessly and gets 27 mpg. If you are going to haul a big gooseneck trailer it is not what you want. Probably my favorite truck was an '82 Toyota 1-Ton 4x4 with a 7.5' service bed, back when Toyota sold real trucks in the US. The small truck makers don't even sell a longbed here anymore, and very few full-size models are sold with a bed longer than 6', even at 10,000 lb GVWR.
Here's the differance too they (auto makers) don't sell a small truck that's a 1 ton. Toyota only recently came out with a 1 ton. Those small trucks you speak of are 1/4 tons here ie; ford ranger, chevy s10, nissan and so forth. The ford 150 is a half ton though there payloads have increased over the years now. Use to love them old 80's toyotas with the solid front axle, you couldn't kill them things. My only complant with them was there was no room in the cab, not to mention the body would rot out from under the motor that just wouldn't die. Now as for metric my problem is say someone says were making this building 100 meters high, so your building it 328.8' high.:beatsme Where as a hundred yards is 300'. I think metric is fine if you are needing a tighter type spec. But I tend to think folks who use it, use it wrong. As in something is about 300' but will use 100 meters instead of 100 yards. I just think metric is more confusing because nothing is acually even. again using meter a meter is 3.2808 feet, where a yard is 3'. Or take a kilometer thats 1000 meters again confusing that would be 3280.8'. More than half a mile but less than 3/4. It's a pretty exact number, where as again a thousand yards is probably more like it. Like the lake is up the road about half a mile opposed to up the road a klik/kilometer. Sorry for the rant.
About the penis stuff and metric system My apologies for any offence regarding the penis subject. In Australia our road safety department has used the small penis syndrome specifically in an National TV advertising program against car hoons. See YouTube - RTA 'PINKY' COMMERCIAL And I have come across pickup owners over here who are definitely in the bigger is better camp even though they can't get a park and complain bitterly about the poor economy and unreliability. And Squizzy is right too. There are too many four wheel drives in the cities and towns here whose main use is to muscle into the cramped carpark after school to pick up the kids. And I can't let the metric issue go. Do you know there are only three, 3, countries in the world who do not use the metric system ? The USA of course, the Burma dictatorship and Liberia, (where all those rustbucket, "flag of convenience", ships are registered.) A friend of mine imports resins and windturbines from the USA amongst other places. It's the bane of his life getting products in quarts and machinery with imperial bolts etc. If he can get another similar product from elsewhere in the world he does, as they will be metric. Seriously you folk in the USA are really missing out on export opportunities because you haven't fully got with the metric program on world trade. That may be one of the reasons why you have such a massive overseas debt. Of course large companies like Caterpillar do produce products in metric as it does trade globally and is aware of this. However it does leave you in the USA having to deal with two systems of measurement instead of one like the rest of us:Banghead Once again, no offence meant, after all this is a forum for opinion and like a bum, every one has one. AusDave
G,day PSD, your point is well made about your market and I think there is parallels here. Some of the so-called legal payloads rated by the manufacturer's are just a plain joke. I think our Nissan Navara is a classic. It is rated to tow 3 tonnes or thereabouts but if look at it you could have a problem if you then put a carton of beer and your dog in the back (and Rover has put on a few kilos...err pounds.). You might be just missing the point on the ole metric chestnut though. Metric was not designed to be easy to convert to an old system...it was designed to be logical. Even NASA comes unstuck when mixing the two: http://edition.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric/ I still think in Miles Per Gallon though and having grown up on a farm I still can't relate to Hectares....even though mathematically it makes sense. The point is the ISO standard is metric and nearly every country in the developed world changed to metric (if they already weren't) decades ago...so our kids don't have troubles converting metres to feet...they have no reason to.
Is that a metric "3", or English?
Well fiddle sticks, guess I'll say something about metric. :tong Geez AusDave, kinda cold comparing us in the states to Burma and Liberia, albeit the truth. The truth hurts eh? Nevertheless, why do we hold to an archaic system? Who knows for sure. I think one element is the sheer cost it would take to remove all reference of inches/miles/lbs in this large country if you stop and think about it. Just the cost of changing highway signs from New York to Los Angeles and all points across fruited plain would be staggering. As for me, being over 50, it would be hard to take me away from judging the approximate lenght of something in feet. Doesn't mean I reject the metric system either, heavens no, just old and set in my ways. Maybe it will change in time, but we Americans are a stubborn and independent sort, kinda been that way since we told the brits to go home in the late 1700's. But I will add this in defense of the merits of the metric system; it did not, does not, will not require fractions, thereby making it much more freindly to the calculator, whether it's the electronic type, or the grey matter type connected to pencil and paper. :yup
Guys there is no need to apologise for the penis measure....err.. references... Just wanted to make sure we kept relatively on track.I think the metric/imperial thing could go on forever too:beatsme
Yea believe me I get the metrc thing, it's just growing up with the standard system i hear meter and so forth and I start coverting to what makes sence to me. But like I said it is more acurate. As for the penis jokes i'm over it. But I must say there is probably some merit to those statements because some men/boys buy them as a status symbol but then there alot of women that own and drive a full size truck. And we all know they have penis envy.:drinkup
I use my truck for work, play and family transportation. I have never seen a Toyota or any other Japanese pickup with loads like these. I was over 24,000 lbs in each of these pictures. As far as metric vs. standard, I wish the US would make up it's mind. I don't care one way or the other but I am sick and tired of needing two sets of tools to work on my truck.
AAAAA-MEN!:exactly:iagree:cussing:
HAHA well said Copenhagen. There is definately some weight behind your Ford in that picture! This thread has really inspired a good rant so... I'm pretty tired of toyota and other Jap truck drivers telling me that my truck is a "waste of fuel" and "status symbol". I drive a Chevy 1 ton with a 6 inch lift and some pretty mean mud tires. I use my truck as a truck every time i drive it. It's seen thousands of pounds of gravel, steel, lumber, and concrete. Its had firewood stacked up over the cab. It's towed equipment, boats, snowmobiles, and motorcycles. I run a mobile welding buisness so it's been through the woods with my 800lb welder, torch tanks, and tools and sometimes it comes back with a bucket or hydraulic cylinder in the back too. At the end of the day it needs look presentable enough to meet up with a new client to discuss a job. Some guys can get by with 2wd toyota flat bed. Thats great. A yota wouldnt last a week in my world. The jap guys can complain all they want, but I've got work to do...
Not Picking On You I don't mean to be picking on you two fellows; Copenhagen and KevD, but you are a good example of one of my points: The emotional investment of this subject. Nobody was talking about you and yet you are defensive. Obviously if you are going to tow a bobcat frequently you don't want one of the trucks Toyota sells in this country. Can either one of you honestly tell me you don't know anybody like the girl who lives beside my shop? She drives a 4x4 f350 diesel crewcab and a heavy load for her is when she has the neighbors kids and hers in the truck. Her truck has no trailer hitch of any kind. I see a lot more of these trucks used for these purposes than for heavy work. My sister owns 4 F-350s, three diesel,one 4x4. They work for a living as she owns a 96 stable horse farm. I own a chevy ton truck with a service bed, for years I owned a toyota with a service bed, the main advantage to the chevy is space, and when the toyota had it's normal 2500 lbs of tools, welder, etc. (much less a trackhoe bucket on a trailer) you couldn't pass in a reasonable space with a jato rocket on the roof. The japanese makers haven't sold a commercial type pickup in the US since the 80's. The '86 1-Ton I still have has carried a 1-1/2 yd 4-n-1 loader bucket 200 miles at 70mph. My 93 shortbed toyota is mostly a cheap way to get to the parts store but it will carry what most f-150s will, it has no trouble with a ton of feed cause my father carried that every week for years in it. In other countries of course the Japs sell everything up to and including tractor-trailers and quarry dumps. One thing I think is strange is the popularity of working out of shortbed pickups. If anyone could explain I would appreciate it. Mitch:stirthepot or :deadhorse
Prob 10% of the people that buy the big 4x4 american trucks use them to there full potential. Alot of people buy them as a status symbol, I talk to so many people that think they need a big diesel pu. The new fully loaded king ranch ford diesel is something like 64K, thats alot of wood hauling and skid loader pulling to pay off. I have a 90 f250 diesel that stays parked most the time, I just use it to haul or pull a trailer when I need to. My run around and do everything vehicle is my 82 mercedes 240d diesel, it can be shiny if I work at it, but I stopped trying to impress people quite a few years back.
I don't get it This is what I and I think some other Aussies don't get:beatsme Why use a styleside pickup which is not even a tipper and an expensive trailer with a fifth wheel hitch to carry earthmoving equipment when you could use a decent tipper?? The pictures below show what I mean. If you move earth or just about anything a tipper is cool. A set of ramps and you can carry your skidsteer or excavator as well. If you have a skid and an ex you might then have a basic trailer so you can carry both at once. Though if you have a tandem tipper and not too big a skid and a mini ex you may stick them both in the tipper. Cabover tippers here mean a relatively compact, manoeuvrable but still powerful truck still with a big enough tipper to carry what you want. You can also have dropsides and a space behind the cab for other gear. Or a crewcab design for more people carrying capacity. You can have all this for about the same cost or less than a styleside pickup with a trailer. And you've got a tipper!! The cabover trucks we have are proper heavy duty trucks and would be much tougher than the Fords, Chevies and Dodges that many have on this forum. I would have thought because of the tough times economically in the US you'd all be looking at ways to save cash and increase efficiency, and I might be biased, but it seems over here we have some good examples of how to do this. You can also have you fuel & oils on the truck, leave it on the job and commute with a cheap & economical car and save more! However if you have a love affair with your pickup you may as well ignore this post.:Banghead AusDave
Just a few bits for thought: When I was a kid people towed boats, campers and small trailers with full size cars. They had big V8's (big back seats:naughty) and enough heft to handle a decent load. Now they are gone and full size doesn't mean anything near what it used to. So if you've got a regular Joe who wants to tow a ( ?toy? ) he needs to get a pickup. Now lets say that he can't afford to have an extra vehicle sitting around just to tow or haul because of the cost of: a) the vehicle b) the insurance c) the maintenance d)the tags e)etc. etc. Whats he supposed to do? Most will get a pickup and use it for a daily driver. So it gets loaded up with the nice nice stuff that you would have in a car. Lots of guys would get a sporty car to drive to work , so if you are driving a p/u truck why not get one with lots of HP like in a car. Also, last time I looked at getting a mid sized PU it was priced within $3,000 of a full size, carried/towed much less and got about 1-2 MPG better fuel economy. :beatsme As for the COE like AusDave pictured, I have seriously thought about getting one to replace my pickup for the business. However, they are pretty darn expensive over here last time I checked. I think that our prices for the styleside trucks that you mentioned might be a little better than what you'd pay. Just like the COE's are probably more reasonable in Oz. Economy of scale, public acceptance and product availability all come into play. I'd love to be able to buy a reasonably priced 1/2 ton with a smaller fuel efficient diesel that could tow 7-8000 lbs. But I can't buy what's not offered for sale here.
All good points AusDave, but what you have there is a work truck, that's about it. And a good work truck set up it is, handy as a pocket on a shirt, but it's a work truck nonetheless. It's not so much we have a love affair with pickups. It's really quite simple, we use pickups as multipurpose vehicles. Some guys use them strictly as a work vehicle. Others, to haul loads as well as load up the bed with baseball bat bags and take the little league team to the games. Might use your truck for work during the week, then hook a boat or camper to it for an outing. I wouldn't want to drive a tipper with a camper trailer hooked to it to the campsite, nor would I want to launch a boat with one, I'll stick with a 4wd pickup on the boat ramp. Also, we have a good number of roads that some of those loads you show in pics would be a height problem. Right down the street from our shop, on a fairly main road, is an 11' 4" (roughly 3.5 meter) railroad underpass. That excavator on a tipper would be a problem in that situation, whereas that ex on a low trailer behind a pickup, no worries.
You guys are ATE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Aussies you all have very good points but you are flurting on the side of offensive..... With that said, i think your trying to convert Americans to your ways are about as likely as us converting you to ours. I am not going to even try to justify the pros and cons to each point, (its all been said!) or throw any bombs at you (Keith Urban).... just kidding! I do like to see how other people do things though and i appreciate the ideas! I do have a royal flush of a concept. We have bought 3 hook type roll off trucks over the last 5 years. A International 4400, a Ford F800, and a Kenworth T-800. This is a piece of equipment that is only limited by your imagination. I am seriously thinking about buying a F-550 or GMC cabover with a hook this fall. You have a dumper, container truck, flat bed, utility truck, or whatever you want to mount all in one truck. On the metric conversation, i must say that i agree. Metric is the way to go. However if the metric system was our biggest problem i would be very happy! Not being a smart ass, i really do like the ideas being tossed around!!!
Yair...good discussion going here fellers. If you look back, one of the points to my original question at the start of the thread was the styleside or fleetside bodies...'specialy on a big high 4x4 they are a right royal pain in the ass. I reckon the big rigs would be a bit more practical if you could load some fence posts or mulch bales over the side...yeah, yeah, I realise you can use the lowbed gooseneck but man, thats a complicated way of doing a simple job. barklee...that hook truck setup sounds a pretty good idea. Do you have some picture
http://swaploader.com/cgi-bin/pro/emAlbum.cgi?c=show_album;p=Customer_Photos That is not the brand we have but they have the best pics. I dont think they have any pics of smaller trucks, but you will get the idea
Stirrin' the pot... Hi ATCOEQUIP, your points are well made and your contributions are welcome in this thread as you put some thought into your responses encouraging me to do the same. There are a lot of similarities in Australia to the US as well as some obvious differences. It's a lot drier here in many places and the ground doesn't freeze in winter. However both countries have families, do sports and other recreational activities such as towing boats. I think what has happened over time in the USA is that fuel economy legislation, which has affected passenger vehicles, did not apply as rigorously to light trucks. SUVs are in the light truck category as well so fuel economy requirements are not as onerous to many of the vehicles used by smaller contractors on this forum. Cars became mainly front wheel drive leaving SUVs as rear wheel drive options. In Australia we've actually been exporting some of our rear wheel GM cars in the past, which were rebadged as Buicks. Thats all over now with the GM shrinkage. But we've had the choice of Aussie made rear wheel drive cars, some of which come in 4WD, which are an economical choice compared to pickups and can tow about the same. However we have a lot of choice in light and medium and heavyweight trucks from mainly Japan & Europe. Trucks like Toyotas Hino brand and the extensive Isuzu range are very popular and can be relatively inexpensive. Because these trucks have to comply with fuel economy regulations elsewhere in the world they have good fuel economy compared to US pickups. A couple of photos below are from the US from a similar discussion on another website Forum thread. This truck has a tilt tray and roll on/off can capability. Versatile! A US owner of this type of truck which has a torquey 476 cu. inches / 200hp motor says "These trucks pencil out financially. They do not break down.... just don't. They are tough as nails and extremely reliable. Comparing an f550 to a Isuzu FRR is like comparing a Murray to an exmark. Got air assisted brakes? Got a jake brake? Got an inline six? Got 12mpg? Didn't think so." So it's just not me on the :soapbox I suppose what I'm really getting at is, bearing in mind what the rest of the world uses and finds most efficient for work and play, can you guys stateside find a more efficient way with the vehicles you could use to do the same job with less cost? Surely to do so would be a big advantage for survival in a down economy... The guys on the other Forum with these trucks seem to be doing well financially in the US. Keepin' the pot stirred:stirthepot AusDave
Barklee, thats a great point you have about hook trucks! Last summer i worked along side an outfit (we had the bid for one building, they had the one next door) that used one of these very effectively. They adapted an enclosed utility bed to work with the hook setup. So on day one they dropped off the utility bed with all of their tools. Then they dropped off their dumpster with a mini excavator in the back. The next day they hauled in some stone with a special dump body (think converted dumpster). Toward the end of the job they brought in a few hundred sheets of plywood on an adapted flatbed. You loose a little economy with the extra weight from the hydrualics and related components but being able to do the job of 4 trucks with just one certainly makes up for that.
That Isuzu is what i had in mind only in a crew cab. My only drawback is the turning radius and manuverability. I have never driven one but it looks bigger than a 550 and would be harder to run around with to pick up supplies. Also, maybe its the "American" in me but the "cool" factor is just not there. Its got no style!!!! I must say it is a logical choice though being that anything Ford made after the 7.3 diesel is just sad! I can show you a mountain of reciepts for repairs to prove it
Ahh yes, as far as style points go, on a scale of 1 to 10... ...cab overs are definately a negative 2 :usa In all seriousness, I never really understood cab overs. I can see the benefits of a low center of gravity and a tighter turning radius. But at a glance they look like they lack clearance for a flotation type tire up front and there really isnt anything in front of the driver. They obviously must be safe enough to pass government tests but i would feel a little safer with a few feet of steel in front of me. I'm also curious as to how well a cab over would push a plow. Seems like it might be a little funky. Do they make these is four wheel drive? I'm not trying to pick on anyone, just tryin to open up some more discussion. How does everyone else feel about cab overs?
i like the cabovers. particularly the larger ones equipped with the cat or duramax engines. for a larger med. duty their benefits outweigh the shortcomings. in my area the tighter turning radius would be a help. they seem to have great visibility as well. the smaller 4 cylinder cabovers are nice as well just don't have the towing capacity i need. with the use of smaller cabovers becoming so common among landscapers in the US a change is slowly happening. i've never seen a tri-axle cabover dump in the heavy duty range. it seems medium duty trucks in general are falling out of favor here.
Now there is some style!!!!!!!!!!!!!:notworthy
barklee I mean no offense but - "Style" and "International" are two things I didn't expect in the same post.:bouncegri I will admit that the 4000 series is much better looking than the 7000 series though.
Guy that services my plow has a cabover for plowing he loves it. Says it has agreat turning radius and he is looking right over the plow and can see everthing thats going on.
Ahh, your doing a fine job mate.
Yair...given the fact that lots of folks in the U.S. use a V8 truck as a daily driver (partly due to the down sizing of the car fleet) it's only a matter of time before the regulators mandate a reduction in pickup engine size...we're running low on oil guys. As an interesting aside...as far as I am aware there are no conventional bonneted light duty trucks sold in Australia...everything over a one tonner is cabover.
Already done, Scrub Puller. See this thread on the Obama administration's new pickup regulation . Question for the Yanks: If diesel routinely cost about $4.60 per gallon at the pump (as it does in Australia, if they were to price diesel in US dollars per gallon), and a gallon of gasoline was relatively the same, would you buy pickup trucks more like what the Aussies are describing? Question for the Oz: If diesel routinely cost about $.77 per liter at the pump (as it does in the US, if we priced diesel in Australian/liter), and a gallon of gasoline was relatively the same, would you buy trucks more like what the guys in the US are describing? Larry
G,day Larry, I think more Aussies would but not the majority. Combination of several things. First, old habits die hard, we buy what we are used to. Second, the larger US style pickups are very poor performers in soft sand and narrow sand tracks of our coastline where fishing is popular. In much of our coastline, away from the cities, beach driving is very common and the tracks to get onto the beach are normally rough going. Current model F250's are not uncommon here and actually sold quite well in 2008 when the pricing was keen. More than once I have had to sit and wait on my favourite south coast fishing tracks while a Landcruiser or Patrol hauls the F250 out of the soft stuff. The size and weight just work against them on our coast and in our desert tracks. We have many beaches that don't hard pack and you need to plow through the very soft sand often on an angle. You will see an F250 crabbing sideways on my beach near home rather than follow the wheel ruts like the lighter and shorter wheelbase vehicles. Where the US style vehicle has made in-roads is with tradesman who tow and want a multi-purpose vehicle with the extra space. A lot of our "grey nomads" have gone the pick-up road for the 5th wheel, to tow the "home" of their dreams on the "big lap" (Circumnavigate the continent). Interestingly, one of our most popular 4x4 magazines here has just run a nine month feature on a retired couple who bought a 2nd hand Mitsubishi 4x4 wagon and towed a caravan around Australia. The Mitsubishi was a V6 petrol engine and they only averaged around 16 miles per US Gallon. This was considered (in the magazine) pretty poor when compared to the current crop of European and Japanese common rail Turbo Diesels. I made note somewhere hereabouts that the US pick-up is very much a cultural icon and perhaps American's vehicle buying habits are a little more patriotic than Aussies. Aussies (it seems) like new things and technology...as evidenced by having the highest rate of mobile (cell) phone ownership in the world. Fuel economy is a dominating factor in our market (Quoting Australian Chairman of Pacific Dunlop {GoodYear}).
Pardon my ignorance...... but what is a "common rail diesel?" What kind of specs are on them and what kind of fuel milage are you getting? I have always found it funny that my Kenworth t-300 fully loaded with a mini ex on a trailer gets 9 miles per gallon and my 2008 f-250 with 3.73 gears empty only gets 13.3 mpg. Somethings really wrong with this picture. The crap about the emissions requirements is no excuse to me. With the technology we have today?????? Come on!!! I was reading last fall about a teacher from Philly that built an altered common Ford Focus to get 95 mpg running only on gas (no electric, no batteries). He also said that if he was given a grant for $400,000 he could guarantee to improve this to 125 mpg. Seems to me this is not hard to believe. Bet that would put a pretty big hole in the oil companies bottom line!!!! Suppose they buy this technology and put it on a dusty shelf somewhere?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_rail
Yair...CEwriter. Even at 77 cents a litre (in my opinion) the only possible application for American style pickups in this country is for pulling big caravans or fifthwheelers on the blacktop...and even then a European or Japanese two tonner will do it just as well and use less fuel. The American trucks are just too big and soft useless to hack it the rough stuff...and as has been pointed out why would you want one as a work truck when for a lot less money you can get yourself a tidy little 2.5 or 3 litre one ton diesel...or if you need something bigger a little cabover that is built as a propper truck.
Please point me to a dealer in the U.S. (preferably on the east coast) where I can buy a tidy little 2.5 or 3 liter one ton diesel. I'm not familiar with that truck offering here.
Yair...Orchard Ex, thats what we in Australia are finding realy strange...there are a few blokes who post here saying they would find such a rig usefull, I just can't understand why they are unavailable in the 'States...they are pretty much standard fare in Aus., N.Z., S.A. and so on.
Orchard, not to be a smart aleck, but how about Isuzu? theres a dealer in Charleston SC. Or, if you want 4x4 you'll have to go to mitsubishi fuso.
The reason they are not in the US is because they cannot meet emission standards set by the EPA, blame the US gov't not the manufacturers. The rest of the world is more lax but it looks like we may have some small diesel options in the future. The car industry is in the tank just like construction. For any manufacturer to invest a substantial fortune in engineering and tooling to make their current diesels meet US emissions standards is not likely at this time. Who is going out to buy a new 330DL and hope they have work for it?:cool2 I have a Tico friend of mine in Costa Rica that recently purchase an '09 Nissan Navarra (the Frontier in the US) crew cab with the turbo diesel, manual. It is a very nice ride, plenty of power, quiet and very roomy. He gets high 20's per gallon (my rough math from liters/kilometers to miles/gallon and relying on my spanglish ) and he has a lead foot. If I had this option to buy this truck in the US, I would strongly consider trading my F350 for one. During my time in Costa Rica I have been fortunate to be exposed to the diesel vehicle models we don't have in the 'States. Toyota Hilux, Landcruisers - old school '70's 2 and 4 doors to the new work models and high end version, 4 Runner and Fortuner. Nissan Frontier (old body style), Navarra, Pathfinder and Patrol. Izuzu Dmax. Ford Ranger. Mitsubishi L200 pickup, old body style Montero and Huntsman or Pajero. All these models have a diesel option or diesel only. Costa Rican diesel is 20% less than gas at the pump due to the less tax imposed on diesel - food for thought.:cool2
Where to get your Cabover proper truck Hmmm, I assume you have the internet in the USA. It took me about 5 seconds to find in the US the type of Cabovers us Aussies are talking about. And yes, they do meet emission standards. Go to here htthttp://www.isuzucv.com/news/ for Isuzu trucks. AusDave
Yeah there are plenty of automotive diesels suitable for work-pickup duty that currently meet US emissions standards. It seems there just isn't enough demand for what we here call pickup trucks (to distinguish the big-market F-150/Silverado/Ram 1500 pickups from Isuzu/Mitsubishi cabover trucks) with diesel engines. I don't have a lot of heavy work use for a pickup, personally, but I prefer to drive pickups for their occasional hauling utility (kayaks, canoes, home improvement). And my recreation tastes are inclining me toward a 4WD. I don't have a pickup right now because I choose not to burn that much fuel and the minivan hauls what I need (sure is limiting off-road, though). I'd be real interested in a 4x4 Ranger/S-10/Dakota (mid-size pickups?) with a diesel if it got me up into the mid-20s mpg. They just aren't sold here. Cummins is expanding a production line in Ohio, ostensibly to build light-duty diesels for Dodge. And there was a lot of talk a few years ago about the introduction of light duty diesel here in pickups, SUVs and autos. The initial introduction estimates have come and gone, though, with no products as yet. Mahindra keeps threatening to start selling a compact diesel pickup here, but can't seem to pull the trigger. And I'm not anxious to be any offshore makers' guinea pig. Note: Ford fired the first shot in the real pickup fuel efficiency war this week.
OOps got the link wrong. It's http://www.isuzucv.com/news/
We lost some posts to this thread during site maintenance. To carry on: Yes there are a few manufacturers that have met Tier II emissions - VW, Audi and a few more but what is the ultimate cost to the consumer on the showroom floor to "put the package together"? A press release from Ford Quote from the Ford article- The smaller pickups in question in this thread are the Toyota, Nissan, Izuzu,etc pickups (that the rest of the world gets to enjoy) and why they are not sold in the US. And yes the little cab-overs from Mitsi and Izuzu have been sold for years but they fall under different emissions standards (for now) than light trucks and passenger cars. From an Autoguide article - Jeep no longer offering diesel option- . So the US had a small diesel on the market but due to the cost of making the emissions 50 State compliant, they shelved it. If the current diesel production model Toyota Hilux, Izuzu Dmax and Nissan Navarra could be legally sold in the US market the manufacturers would already be doing so, if nothing more than a special order. I wish we had the small truck/SUV diesel offering in the US as most of the rest of the world does. I don't believe the hype that Americans are adverse to diesel as a fuel because of the smell or the difficulty in finding a pump. If they could increase their mileage by 20-30% and thus their amount in their pocket book, they would saying "smell? what smell?". Regarding the Mahindra, think old Koti tractor made in India with sheet metal wrapped around it and a heater. I have been around a few down in Central America. They will NOT go over well in the US market, take my word for it.:cool2 BTW - VW's R&D is really coming on strong. Their new crew cab pickup looks pretty sharp:wink2
Well it looks like my original reply to mitch from last night got eaten by maintenance but here goes.. Yeah Dave, I've got the interwebs here too. Now let's get straight just what trucks you Aussie's ARE talking about. The Isuzu's start at a GVWR of 12k lbs with dual rear wheels and a payload of about 3 tons. Is that what you are calling a "1 tonner" ? They also have a 5 liter engine. Sounds like a lot bigger than the tidy little 2.5 to 3 liter diesel that can haul 1 ton that I read about in this thread. I thought we were supposed to be replacing our stupid style-side pickups with efficient little flatbed SRW runabouts, not a dualie COE "proper truck". :beatsme You guys let me know when you figure out which of our trucks you're bitching about. Now do me a favor and take another 5 seconds on your fancy internet and find me one of those little efficient diesel trucks over here. Now does anyone have real numbers for a cost comparison on one of the COE's with a decent bed installed vs. a diesel "American" heavy pickup in work truck trim, not all chromed out. My buddy was looking at them last fall and they didn't pencil out for him.
Thank you for straightining this out!!!!!!!!!!!! :Banghead This has been "Killing me". Please show me the towing capacity and payload of one of the "tidy little trucks" you speak of. I have a Toyota Tacoma and i can tell you from experience that this is not a (work) truck. Unless hauling around your lunch box and a thermos constitutes a work truck! They have there place but hauling around 4 full sized men, enough tools for everyone to work with and a little material for the day is not there place....
I would like to know where these "tidy little diesel trucks" are sold in the US as well.....
Coming soon to a venue near you SQUIZZY'S Truck Sales...specialising in....Tidy Little Diesel Utes...err...Trucks! Ochard EX has nailed it!. I'll try and explain some of the reasoning however behind the various arguement. Firstly...those Tidy Little Diesel Utes as we call them are not real 1 tonners, despite what the Toyota Advertisements will have you believe. I speak of the Nissan Navara, Toyota Hilux, Ford/Mazda BT50, Isuzu D-Max etc. These are the 2.5 - 3.0 litre Turbo Diesel Utilities perhaps best described as Medium Duty. From my experience Americans would call these 1/2 or 3/4 tonne vehicles (just my take) despite the fact that in single cab chassis some of them are actually rated at 1000 kg payload. I challenge anybody to prove how a current model Hilux will carry 1 tonne everyday without the suspension collapsing after a couple of months....they all do it and that is without adding in corrugations and poor roads. The so called towing capacity of some of these jalopies is also very questionable because a lot of "car only" licensed drivers (in the Down Under) don't understand Gross Combination Mass (vehicle and Trailer). Nonetheless these vehicles work hard, can carry a tradesman's gear and are very economical to run. You can say what you like about the Japanese but they generally know how to design a reliable and economical vehicle......too bad they still haven't learnt how to build a suspension for Australian Conditions. The best test I could apply to these medium duty vehicles is perhaps to ask this question: "How do you think a current Toyota Hilux will go carrying a full 1 tonne everyday as compared to a 3 tonne Mitsubishi Canter carrying a its full load everyday; in terms of safety, economy and overall durability?" . Simple...the Bitsamisshing will go just about forever and eat the Hilux for economy on a pound for pound basis. One of these vehicles is a medium duty daily driver and the other is a real truck. In the Down Under, to get a Heavy Duty 1 tonner there is the 70 series Toyota LandCruisers (with 4.5 litre V8 Diesel), The Nissan Patrol Utility (with 3.0 litre TD) and the venerable Land Rover Defender in 110 (900kg payload) or 130 chassis (1300kg payload) both with the 2.4 TD from the European Ford transit range (and a cabin that came off the Ark). These vehicles are not too far off apples for apples with the F250 sized "pick-ups" although they lack the sheer room and comfort of the American Cousin. The Patrol and Landcruiser 1 tonne "Utes" are much loved by Farmers who, if the F250 wasn't a minimum of $40K more, would probably buy more of the American Vehicles.....due to the primary producers diesel fuel rebate. Getting onto Real Trucks...here is what makes it difficult for an Aussie to understand. Currently, I can get an ISUZU 3 tonne factory tipper, on the road for $47,990.00 Aussie smackeroos and to around $56K with all the fruit. The F250 starts at over $100,000.00 Aud...and the Lariat is $144,000.00......little bit of difference there. The ISUZU has six-speed or Automated for extra, Air-bags, Cruise Control, Central Locking, Sat Nav the whole works. For 50 grand less its not too bad a daily driver....but at the end of the day its a Truck and the F250 sized US pick-ups are cross-over vehicles that do multiple tasks. Call them what you will...its the intended purpose that matters. To compare the F250 sized pick-up to the Japanese and European small trucks is really not fair. They (The Jap & Euro small trucks) need to be looked at in terms of the F350-550 sized trucks....as I think was mentioned earlier in this thread. Its probably a shame that the Likes of ISUZU have not had more market penetration in the US. Maybe its to do with traditional buying habits, simple demand and supply or perhaps its something political. I wouldn't have a clue to be honest but I reckon if I was in the US and in the proper 1 tonne market I'd be looking more at what was most commonly available and had a decent support network. Of course if I was in the US fuel economy would be less of an issue due to the cheaper diesel pricing. Diggers fridge would be empty too...... Another thing I'll note about the current crop of medium duty utes in Australia. Its amazing how the owners of these vehicles over estimate their ability to carry loads...or rather, over estimate the weight of their loads. In our stone yard there is retail sales. These clowns come in with their flash utes (Nissan Navara's etc) and I occasionally get called upon to drive the forklift. "This thing will take a tonne and a half Mate no worries!" Should see their faces when you put seven or eight hundred kilos on-board and the suspension is on the bump stops, they can hardly see over the bonnet and steering is almost non-existent. They always tell me there must be 2 tonnes in that pallet so I offer to put a 1 tonne pallet of cement on to compare.....they always leave without taking me up on the offer. On the subject of emissions standards its complicated and without getting into the technical stuff there are major disparities. Firstly almost all the current diesel engines sold in Australian utility vehicles, with the exception of the Nissan Patrol, "could" or are sold in the US. The problem is that the engines are generally manufactured with Euro IV or Euro V at the fore. The fundamental difference between Euro and the EPA is that US mandates on levels of CO2 emission whilst the Euro regulates on fuel economy. Of course both set standards for specific emissions but its very confusing to try and compare the two. The fundamental flaw in the American system is the fuel economy can be reduced by adding an emission control. Here is an Australian document which shows the adoption of Euro 4 and 5 whilst also permitting US or Japanese certification in various areas....ultimately to achieve the same goal: http://www.ntc.gov.au/filemedia/bulletins/ADR80facts.pdf What should be noted is that the European Engine manufacturer's have (had this stuff rammed down their necks) been working on getting these emission standards and simultaneously improving the fuel economy, for a lot longer than the US. Consequently the Euro manufacturer's are probably well in front in that regard. As little as 6 years ago much of the Western World was claiming that US emission standards were too slack but the gap has narrowed to the point its not logical for the layman to argue who is setting a supposed "higher" standard. My apologies for such a long post but I'd hate a good discussion to be confused by the apples and oranges..
The Toyota, Nissan, Izuzu, and Ford small diesel pickups or their power plants are NOT currently sold in the US for on-road applications. "Could" they be sold, sure but what would be the retail price to get the engines EPA certified for their weight class? The EPA sets different standards for vehicles below 8500 lb GVW. Tier II standards basically require all models below this GVW to meet gasoline engine emissions standards, regardless of fuel type . The 8500 lb GVW threshold is why Ford, Dodge and Chevy/GM have diesel heavy duty pickups (and don't sell the smaller ones), there are different emissions standards for the heavier weight class. (Also why we get the bigger Izuzu COE's here.) When it comes to the EPA, nothing really makes sense. Then you have the DOT safety standards but that's another pandora's box. This article from Edmonds describes the EPA Tier II emissions standards in a little more detail. (there's a part 1 and part 2) Quote from the Edmonds Article: The article was written by the Engineering Editor of Edmunds, hardly a layman. Other References: EPA weight classifications http://www.epa.gov/otaq/standards/weights.htm Federal Code: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...=div6&view=text&node=40:19.0.1.1.1.13&idno=40 Tier II Emissions standards and implementation schedule: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/tier2stds.htm
Yair...well said Squizzy, an articulate and well put together post...sums things up nicely. This has developed into an informative and entertaining thread. Thanks fellers for all the posts. HOWEVER. If you glance back to the start of the thread I was asking mostly about body styles. I just can't get it through my head that a whole nation of otherwise practicle hard working blokes would put up with impracticle "style side" and "fleetside" bodies just for the sake of "looks". I saw an advertisment once (in some lovely green ranch setting) where the smiling rancher had his Chevy pickup with the tailgate down and loaded up with fence posts...I mean how crazy is that...and it seems that ranchers and farmers actualy DO run these vehicles in real world farming situations.
I think (and i may be wrong) that the reason that Americans use these as "work trucks" is the cost and availibility. There are so many people buying a truck to pull a boat or small trailer and using them for weekend home improvements, while still using it as their primary mode of transporation. Why these people think they need a 3/4 or 1 ton is beyond me but they buy them everyday. When you go to the dealer to buy a new one there are so many of these trucks that are built and in stock that its cheaper to buy a "style side" than to order a cab and chassis and put a flatbed on or utility box. From a functionality standpoint they are not optimal but there are so many aftermarket tool boxes and storage systems that its fairly inexpensive and easy to set up a truck that works for a contractor. As opposed to buying a utility box for around $7-$9,000 or a flatbed for $3000 and having to buy another $2000 worth of ladder racks and tool boxes. Not to mention the cost of mounting on chassis. I know that has been my reasoning for buying a "styleside" pickup truck in the past.
What I don't get, is what exactly makes the trucks so incredibly impractical and totally unsuited for what we use them for? We seem to have no issues with them whereI work for general use. In fact, we run over 1000 light vehicles and over half are pickup trucks. For the really heavy use trucks, we equip them with flatbeds strictly for durability. As for the small trucks you guys are talking about, I'd love to try one here and see how it makes out. The only issues I can see would be comfort for the occupants, lack of power required to do the job at hand, and parts availability.
So, you are saying the vast majority of small trucks or Ute's sold in Australia are delivered with flat beds? I guess that the reason we can use the box body is that our trucks are bigger, which makes the box bigger, and the whole rig more useful for real work. If we had to live out of a "mini-truck" box, then yeah it might be frustrating. We've run flat beds and they can be useful, but they are higher off the ground and you either have to chain everything down (including all of your small stuff) every time you move or build sides for them. At that point you are back to a box body, now a foot higher off the ground. The styleside or fleetside (depending on which company you buy from) is lower to the ground, lets you close the tailgate on your small items without chaining them down (unless there are light and prone to blowing out) and gives you a lunch seat right at butt height for free. Yeah you have to deal with the wheel wells, but with at least 4 feet between them it usually isn't that bad.
Yup. When the wife has a project for me to do at home (yuk) I can trip over to the lumber supplier and that 4 x 8 sheet of plywood fits nicely in my old '85 F150 bed...along with a few 8 foot 2 x 4 studs, couple of boxes of nails, a bottle of gorilla glue, some new sawzall blades, and a sack of ready mix cement. Shut the tailgate, don't have to tie anything down, and head back to the house. Easy as throwing a T-bone to a Rottweiler.
Pickups: ... You actually admit that, for all the world (wife) to see, and not... "Gee, honey, maybe latter, that stuff won't fit... might have to use something from work"... man o' man... Hey... what about some gorilla tape and a pipe wrench for... Ze Plane! Ze Plane! Ha!!... some mechanic... :lmao You are talking... just the bone, right?... :tong OCR... And... you're 4 days older than you were on your Birthday... lol
Well of course! The filet and strip are mine...dog gets the bone.
I'm gunna have some fun with this; From my view point it's hard for me to understand whats not to like about our pick ups. They are large (roomy) and comfortable. Little trucks do not fit as I am a full figured fellow.If I need a flat bed , I drag a trailer.As has been stated I can throw stuff in the back and slam the gate. (a few old pics some I have now or had at one time) And the main reason I will not own a small engine truck...It will NEVER sound like this!! YouTube - warrensberg mud run(mine)
you got a 350 or a 454 in that bad boy
355 with mods by Tiny LOL
SWEET!!!!!!!!!!!! U cant kill those old Chevys!
Holy Cow this is the mother of all threads. Tons of good info here. Lots of people who know lots more than me about the pickup market. But nobody has sufficiently described why i drive a big mother 4x4, and not a mitsubishi. For starters, i did look at a cabover mitsu 4x4 cab and chassis. It has a place in the world, just not my place. Here's why My old pickup is a 3/4 ton dodge 4x4 with big mud tires (heavy load rated), long box, extended cab. The big mud tires are so that i can haul a half ton of diesel through impassible mud to where i need it. Its a long bed because a short box won't carry 16' 6x6 posts. Extended cab so i can throw stuff back there i don't want to get rained on(or stolen). But the big one that nobody has mentioned is ice and snow. My truck is in 4x4 mode from Dec 1 to Mar 1. I just leave it in. If you only need it once in your life, its worth it. Many northerners have driven in blinding snow. You can't see through the windshield. There is nothing but white. I have literally driven with the door open so i could watch the line on the road beside me. We're talking zero visibility here. You've got your wife and kids in the car, miles from shelter, praying you don't crash into an unseen motorist or drift into the ditch. If you stop someone will crash into you. So you plod slowly along, hoping to catch site of a landmark or something to guide you, and your only solace is the live front axle helping to keep you on the road, and give you the traction to get going again if you need to stop for a sec. At that point you don't give a rats behind about fuel economy, reliability, purchase price, or any other detriment of four wheel drive. Other than a pickup, you can go with a subaru, and around here people love thier subarus for the same reason. As far as fleetsides, the big 3 use materials suited for the salt and snow damage. One downfall to what i call a landscape body (flat rack, dump, hinged sides) is that they are painted mild steel, and fall apart in the salt very quickly. They just haven't kept up with the automakers with the new coatings and such. The same is true for any sort of service body. My newer pickup is a 1 ton, diesel, 5passenger, long box. Again, short boxes are for blondes. Diesel for the fuel economy(vs gas) and also for the extra pulling grunt. 5 passenger because that's what was available. A point that has been made before, most of us use what we can get cheap, and well used pickup trucks are plentiful. The mitsus are not. I only bought the 1 ton because the price was so low i couldn't walk away. A good used pickup is so much cheaper than anything with a dump or service body on it. It's sort of the same as in Auzzyland except here the pickups are cheaper. The rear axle on the 1 ton is rated at 4242 kgs. Tires are rated higher. Around here, you can carry whatever you like as long as you don't exceed the rating on the weakest of the axle, rims, or tires. So you can see that it can carry a lot more than 1 ton. Also, there is really no limit to what you can pull, as long as you stay below the weight rating. So in theory i could hook on a D6 on a float and go. That would be crazy, but not illegal. Ultimately, the reason i drive a pickup and not a mitsu is this. The mitsu could do 99% of everything my pickup will do, but you can't take your girl to a wedding in it. So it will never be as universally useful as the dodge. just my two cents worth. :drinkup
Sure got quiet here in a hurry.
Yair...as I mentioned this has been an informative discussion and I reckon it's just a matter of what we see as important in our day to day lives. I could not imagine having a truck that had to be loaded through the tailgate...and of course for serious off road work the big rigs are just too soft and clumsy...our normal vehicles are about the size of a long wheelbase Wrangler...Rubicon in the U.S I think...which are seen a bit of wussy item around here but seem pretty good to me. If you are still following this thread Squizzy what suspension issues are you seeing? The blokes around here in the central coastal ranges don't study anything too much and most stuff seems to hold together...with the exeption of a couple of Patrols that have cracked chassis in the rear wheel arch...disapointing for what I have always seen as well built kind of rig. In another life back in the 'eighties I had an engineering shop on the Gulf coast and we used to fix a bit of stuff. I have to say though that it was mostly vehicles that had been wankerised with geriatric male ostrich "lift kits" and all that kind of jazz...like I mean to say, I've got nothing against a decent set of Bilstiens but some of the heroes that fit this stuff think it makes them invincible and they can pull a hundred clicks for hours over out of phase road train wooboys and expect them not to break...duh!
One of the issues raised above about fleetside trucks vs flatbeds is probably not as well understood in the USA/Canada. Most flatbeds here use aluminium flatbeds even on double cab pickups. So there's no rust or corrosion and you get more payload. They last so well you can transfer them to your next truck if it's a similar size. The versatility of the flatbed us Aussies are talking about is the fact you can access them from all sides for loading or unloading. Many tradesmen have a flatbed with a big lockable aluminium toolbox on one or both sides of the flatbed. You can then load a lot of other gear in the middle. We also can have heavy duty carry bars on the flatbed and sometimes from the front bumper so you can carry loads 6 metres/20ft long such as PVC pipe, steel, timber etc. You can also take the toolboxes off for the weekend and load up your recreational gear. Us Aussies like to extract the maximum from our pickups without high running costs. Remember fuel is dearer here and our distances can be vast. AusDave
Just curious, what is the loading height of the Aussie flatbeds? Metric is OK. In the US our standard flatbeds end up with a loading height a good foot higher than a our standard pick ups. We ran a 4WD one ton flat bed as a fuel/service truck for years and it was always a big pain because of the height.
These two quotes seem to contradict each other. Again, are most pickups in Australia sold factory equipped with a flatbed? How about what we call a service body? Are they popular? Or a fleet side with a multi-access locking cap for secure storage? Are the vast array of bed accessories available in Oz for the box beds that we have here?
Something you may not have realised, is that due to the cold weather and ice and snow we have here, road salt and de icer is something we have to deal with. This stuff eats aluminum, so saying it does not corrode is just not true. There is still a lot of aluminum used, but it will not last nearly as long here as it does down there. Add to that the fact that it is not as easy to repair aluminum as it is steel, and that aluminum is not as durable, and it kind of adds up against it. While we may not be able to load from the sides as easily, we also don't have to lift as high to get whatever we are loading into the truck box. Add to that the fact that we don't have to tie down nearly as much stuff we carry due to the box sides and tailgate, and we end up saving time fairly consistently. So, with the aluminum boxes on the sides of the flat deck, you're pretty much in the same boat as we are with the box sides on the pickups. As for unloading the boxes to carry recreational stuff, we don't have to take anything off, and can just load whatever onto the truck as is. Now, for the tradesmen that have boxes and such mounted on their trucks here, they could simply put everything onto a skid that mounts in the pickup box like most welders do around here. It's a very quick and easy job to slide one out of the box and have a pickup to use as normal....takes about 15 minutes on average. We also have many guys who have overhead racks for carrying long lengths of material, but that isn't really affected by the pickup box sides in any way. Distances travelled can be pretty great up here as well. It's a 15 hour drive for me to get home, and it's a 5 hour drive to get to the nearest city from here. Here, we like our trucks to do what we need them to do, and do it with a degree of comfort and safety. I'm more than willing to spend a bit more on fuel to have that.
7.3 diesel bring back the 7.3 diesel I have 2 with over 300,000 miles. No 6.0 or 6.4 will do that. AND he 7.3 isn't half bad to maintain for.
We feel that same about not being able to put something in the back of ours trucks without having to tie it down. My dog won't have anywhere to ride and he won't take to kindly to being strapped to the bed.
3 liter hahaha we have 6.7 liter turbo diesels but I guess it gets the job done well.:canada
One thing a lot of my fellow americans seem to be overlooking is the beds he's talking about that are in other countries are drop sides, like a tailgate on three sides,no more tying down than a pickup, but can load from anywhere, not just back
I know what your saying, we have those but they are called service bodies and they are work trucks here i know what your saying though, what was your question on this thread originally?
That's interesting, what we call service bodies here is the mechanics bodies, with the toolboxes made on on each side.
here too:canada ours are so immaculate and are on 1 ton dually pickups like the link here- http://www.signtechmedia.com/fleetmarkings.php look for the Waterous power Systems truck on the right column
Hmm seems to be a few misconceptions here. Corrosion: I live on the coast, as a matter of fact salt water is just 100m from my front door. We don't have problems with the aluminium we use corroding. One of my properties here has aluminium as the roof, many of the boats which sit in salt water here all day and all year don't have major corrosion problems and the trays on our pickups are full of salt from carrying fishing gear, boxes of fish and even seaweed for the garden. I know some alloys are not as corrosion resistant but I don't see 'em here. The aluminium trays used here are very durable. Because they are thicker than sheet steel and still lighter, they seem to have better impact resistance and flex. And repairs if you ever need them are no problems, just about any decent workshop here can weld alloys, and I'm in the country. Height & sides: Nobody here complains about height that I know of. If you've go a 4WD it's a bit higher, 2WD very reasonable height. We can load from all sides and they have drop sides so you don't have to tie anything down. The boxes on the sides I was talking about are an option you can put 'em and take em off as you like. Something you can't do on a fleet/styleside. Tradesmen love 'em, have them on during the week and take them off on the weekends for camping etc. So we've got the best of both worlds. Distance: I don't know about the USA/Canada but if I had to drive 15 hours to get home I wouldn't do it in a pickup of any kind. Maybe it's just me but a good car is cheaper, more comfortable and less tiring on a long drive, has far greater primary safety, (low centre of gravity, better handling), and better secondary safety due to crush zones which protect the driver. I leave my work truck on or near site and use a car whenever possible for long trips. I've done the sums and I'm way ahead in my situation. And I did roll my car in a a highway speed accident recently, got out without a scratch. Now I accept that we don't have ice & snow like many of you guys do and that can make a difference. But we do have weather extremes here such as extreme temperatures, floods & fires and bad roads. Now I know this thread may degenerate at times into a back and forth between mainly North American pickups and what we use in Australia. But don't forget, there was a time not so long ago when Australia tended to idolised what came out of the USA. We wanted and had big cars, big pickups and fast food. But times change and we seem to have been exposed to many more vehicle options in Australia than you have in North America. I have had a look online at your options. Whether it's pickups or cabover trucks, which are the most common types we have, you don't seem to have the types we have here in the USA & Canada. When you do the sums, whether you're in a small business yourself or managing a large one or even running a farm your overheads can kill your profits and your business. Many of us in Australia can't see how the pickups you have are make sense. And from a purely selfish point of view, the more fuel you guys use, the higher the price of fuel for us. And it's already way higher than you pay! Here's a couple of pics below showing some of what we have. And no we don't all drive something like these, they are just to illustrate what has been discussed and are part of the choice we have. The cabover light truck has small duals and drop sides for an extremely low load height. The other vehicle is a 4WD trades vehicle with a drop side aluminium tray. Dave
Yes you are correct! We don't have the smaller diesel options, at least in the USA, that you have down under. This is one of the reasons why- (excerpt from my post #77) I am sure there are some American contractors that would like to try out one of those Bongos like the one you have pictured above, if they could. The crew cab 4x4 version looks interesting as well. It's hard to compare 2 things when 1 is not available. Now I would love to have the chance to try out a diesel Hilux or Frontier, if we could buy them in the US.
I personally like the north american trucks better, but thats probably because I'm from Canada! That last one you showed AusDave looked weak in the rear end by having the rear axle so far forward. But I did like the cabover, it looks handy!
Those drop sides are neat, but they're what 10" tall? There hardly comparable to ~20" that we have. It may just be the way I drive, but I wouldn't trust much of the daily stuff I carry to stay in that bed. If not for my driving at least cause its in plain sight. Thieves have to go looking into the beds of our trucks to decide what they want to steal not have it all planned out from 50' away. My wife and I have made 24hr. drives in my truck and prefer it to a car. It isn't cheaper, but it handles great, and comfortable. I can recline my seat all the way back and sleep or crawl into the back stretch out. Its just about as safe primary, and has has just as many crush zones airbags. Plus it weighs 7000lbs. which also helps with being safe. Hitting a Roo in my truck wouldn't put it into a ditch or even slow it down if you didn't hit the brakes. I have seen nasty accidents that people in full size trucks walk away from all the time even multiple rollovers. You didn't really just blame us for how high you fuel prices are did you?