I have a 550H Deere dozer that has around 1900 hrs. How many hours should I get on the pins and bushings after having them turned? I have been told they won't last long after the turn because they are hard to get sealed back correctly to keep the oil in them.
I go with a rule of thumb you should get half as many hours one them as before you turned them. you got 1900, so you should get about 900-1000hrs, in the PERFECT conditions. If you are in sand or fine mud not even close. They can go dry at any time I think the biggest problem is there is not as much meat for the sagments to run on now so they wear alot faster. Lots of guys including myself won't turn any more it is not worth it
When I worked in the Virginia Beach area we would do a turn between 700-1200 hours due to the sand. At which time we would change sprocket segments and carrier rollers. Once the turn wore out we would have to change everything botom rollers, idlers, sprocket segments and carrier rollers.
Hello, we don't turn the pins & bushings in the smaller dozers either because of the price of getting them turned vs. Changing them. In my opinion you are better off just running them until they are worn out and then replace em. Thanks, kent
From my experience if you got to 1,900 hours and haven't already turned them it is too late. Look close and the bushings and you will probably find several that have already worn through. Has someone measured the undercarriage and given you quotes yet? The dealer should do that for free. Good Luck!
Ever size machine and working conditions are different. There is no hard and fast rule on undercarriages. The best method is to measure, measure, measure. Some places the bushings dont wear out before the links and someplaces its the other way around. Make your own decision on your own machine. You will figure out which is best for YOU!
450/550 H's and J's are one of the most common machines in our shop. 1900 hours usually means you have wore though the bushings. By turning the pins and bushings on your machine, you would end up saving quite of bit of money. If you have broken bushings, I would run your tracks until you can't go any longer. At that point, you will either need new pins and bushings or new chains. You need to price check, get a couple quotes. Compare new chains vs. new pins and bushings. Check your rail height and make sure your link height is worth installing pins and bushings. Your local John Deere dealer or track shop can measure your link height. We probably average around 1000 hours after the turn depending on what material you are running in. For all of you who don't think installing pins and bushings into smaller chains is worth it.... We installed dry p&b into D20 chains and saved our customer around $300 dollars. He picked his tracks up today and was tickled pink!
What was the total bill?
Orchard, chains came w/ pads bolted on them. $1022
What do D20 chains fit? Is that a model of machine or a manufacturer's number on the chains? I haven't seen a Deere in years get more the 2,100 hours on chains, turned or not.
John C., Komatsu D20P Dozer, same as the D21 Dozer or PC60 excavator. 2100 hours before the turn must be a lot of idleing time. We had a set of case chains come in yesterday off of a 850k with the extended life chains on it. These chains have the Rolling Bushing and all of the bushings are shot. They have only 1067 hrs on them. You can't do a turn on these, you can only replace the chains.
Can you not even replace pins and bushes on these?
Quicktrax, how much do you charge for doing the pins and bushings on a d20/d21?
Thanks for the information on the undercarriage, I was confused by all the information from the guys that come out and check if for you. Most don't even measure anything they just bend over and take a little look and say you need to have them turned. But they were telling me that 900 hours ago. One told me on the sealed tracks that you would only get around 200 hrs. after having them turned because they usually don't seal up good enough to keep the oil in them. I think I will just run them until they have to be replaced, I can't see any bushing that are worn through yet so maybe I can run for a while longer.
CPS, Noone has an aftermarket listing on pins and bushings to fit the extended life case chains w/ the rolling bushings. I tried to fit different pins and bushings into them but I have had no luck.
That's a bummer! can they be replaced with an other chain! or are they case only!
Some salesman judge by looking or feeling the bushings but this doesn't tell them the internal wear on the bushing and pin. If you turn the p&b's in time, you should get a lot more than 200 hours.
We've been putting the standard aftermarket chains and sprockets back onto them. The standard undercarriage last longer than the Case Extended life does. The pads have the same bolt pattern as the standard chain.
QuickTrax, There is a bunch of difference between Case rolling bushing chain, D20 Komatsu chain the the subject machine of this thread, Deere 550H. What is your experience with the Deere crawlers? The Komatsu D20 and Case machines are more along the line of toys. You run them until something breaks and then fix it as cheap as possible. I've yet to see one of these machines live long enough to wear out two sets of undercarriage. What are your thoughts?
Pin and bushing turns were the hot sales ticket years ago......... but my experience has been that it isn't worth the mess. Too much downtime, and too much labor, and you still aren't working with anything! Buy a good U/C, run it till it falls off!
John C., I completely agree with you on the Case. I think the Case crawler is like a kid in a grown ups world. On the other hand, I think the D20 or 21's are great smaller machines. Most of the D20 or 21's that I see are ranch or farm dozers and serve their purpose well. As far as John Deere Dozers go. I feel like the 450/550H,J, machines are good machines. I have seen a lot of electrical problems with them, other than that they are very reliable and hold up very well. I'm not an operator but I feel like Komatsu makes a better small to midsize dozer, I am judging this from the repair side. You said cheap as possible, you can always repair something cheap as possible. But the third time its fixed cheap as possible, its becomes expensive.
The question wasn't about the machines. It was about the machine undercarriage. What do you see with the Deeres and how does it compare to other manufactures?
John C., The Deere 450/550 is the most common machine in our shop. Berco makes the OEM undercarriage for Deere and Deere calls it Duratrax. Berco puts the JD logo on it for them. With that being said, If you bought enough undercarriage, you could have John C stamped on each link if you chose too. I think the OEM undercarriage holds up very well on the 450/550. The weight of the machine and the size of the undercarriage components work well together. I like how JD uses a complete sprocket instead of segments with exception to the 750 and up. On the aftermarket side, the parts are very cost efficient and widely abundant and hold up very well. Pin and Bushing groups dry or salt are readily available along with all of the other undercarriage components.
That's the kind of information being sought. So how does it compare to Cat, Dresta, Komatsu, Case and so on? How many hours are you seeing on the chains in total, turned and not turned?
John C., No two dozers run in the same material and wear at the same rate as you know. From my experience with this size (JD450) machine. We commonly see salt chains come in for a turn around 1500 hrs. After the turn, most salt chains get around 1000-1200 hrs. Running in really abrasive material will drastically reduce the hours you will get. After the turned p&b are wore out, we usually install salt p&b back into the links as long as the link height is good enough. If the link height is wore too much, its time for new chains. I know some people will disagree but with the 450/550 size machine, I am not seeing a difference between the OEM vs the Aftermarket Undercarriage. Hour meters don't lie. Most machines get roughly the same amount of time on the undercarraige. All machines have exceptions. I have a Kom. D65px-15 with 3370 original hrs on it that I am turning the pins and bushings on. This machine sat idling for probably most of those hours. I have seen chains in a sand pit wear through the bushings in 700 hrs. I have also seen bushings last 3370 hrs that haven't wore through. Like I said, all undercarriage wears differently and quite a few exceptions exist.
QuickTrax, I have been looking for at a D4G with 1600 hours that the bushings are measured at 50% worn and the sprockets are pointed. The bushings have not been turned. Track guy at the dealer says just replace the sprockets and run to destruction. He estimated 700-900 hours depending on operating conditions. Then if everything checks good just new pins and bushings and go again. Will be used in topsoil, no sand, no mud and some rocks. I was wondering does this sound like a good plan? From what I have read i know I will have accelerated wear on the sprockets but is there anything else I should be aware of that he is not telling me. At what percentage do you recommend turning for these machines. Thanks
qball98, We recommend turning the pins and bushings when the bushing is wore to about 90%. If you have Cat chains, the link# should be 6Y0935 or 6Y0936. Your stepped bushing diameter when at 90% will be 1.80" or 45.7mm. That chain can either have a stepped bushings or a straight bushing. The stepped bushing will have a lip. The straight bushing will measure 1.63" or 41.4mm when it is 90% wore. Some people don't like to turn the p&b's. That is just up to you. I would get a price for turning the pins and bushings and then weigh you options out whether it is worth it or not. If you are going to put Cat chains back on it, you might want to turn the p&b's because Cat chains are costly. I would get a price on new aftermarket chains and they might be cheap enough that it isn't worth turning. I have some customers that run the chains until they fall off then buy more over and over again. I don't recommend this but it is their decision. If you are only 50% wore and have 1600 hrs on the chains I would keep going and have them remeasured when you think its necessary. Keep in mind that most chains, Aftermarket or OEM come with whats called a "Wet Turn Assurance Policy". This warranty says that at turn time, any dry pins and bushings on lubricated chains will be replaced free of charge, this doesn't include labor. If you have an LGP machine, the warranty only pays 50%. This warranty only takes place if the chains are not past 100% worn. I hope this will help Thanks, QuickTrax
Thanks QuickTrax that does help allot I have been wondering what percentage you could run them to until it was time to turn. This is what Cat says the measurements are and it is a standard track machine. Pins & Bushings (External) Measurement (L) .37 % Worn (L) 44 Measurement (R) .35 % Worn (R) 52 Not real sure where Cat comes up with these numbers the decimal points confuse me a little because they don't tell you what unit of measurement they use. It looks like I should be able to run it for a while before I need to work on it. If I remember right it has the stepped bushings in it. Thanks again, Qball98
qball98, Your Cat salesman is using an Ultrasonic tool to measure. We use the old school Calipers. I haven't used the ultrasonic tool before. According to his percentages, your bushings should measure around 1.88 inches as long as you have the stepped bushing.
The ultra-sonic tool only measures one side of the bushing so you have to be careful when someone gives an estimate of how much is left of the bushings. The other thing I found odd about that system is that it doesn't provide a percentage of hardened bushing left. It provides a percentage of time you have left to run that side of the bushing. Even though the book will show both measurements with their percentages, I have found that I don't really trust that conversion in the book. It's probably that I believe my eyes more than an item of space age technology. I have used them and don't like them at all. They are best used by product support people as a sales tool. They are particularly hard to use on rough surfaces and small machines. Measuring track rails and bushings on a D5 and smaller is pretty tough to do and wastes a lot of time trying to get the thing to read the same thing twice in a row. I agree with QuickTrax about the calipers and rulers.
I haven't seen the ultrasonic tool in action but I have heard that all of the surfaces have to be really clean for it to be accurate. On a crawler, nothing is ever clean. I think I will stick with the caliper and ruler.