Hi all, I have a Cat 315C (0CJC02798) that I am sorting through cooling system issues with right now, but really the questions I have are more general. 1) What is nitrite in coolant for, and does it matter? I have picked up some stuff on other threads regarding Cat stuff requiring nitrited coolant. I believe what I have in there now is not. Should I flush it out and fill with ELC? 2) What are silicates? What are they for, should I worry about mixing? 3) What else don't I know? Most of my background mechanically is automotive, and I don't remember much about nitrites. I do remember some about silicates, particularly the problems Ford had with silicated coolant in the early 6.0 diesels, but that was awhile ago.
My first suggestion if you are unsure what the condition is of the coolant right now is to get a coolant sample analyzed by your Cat dealer. 1) Cat off-road equipment specifies the use of a nitrited coolant meeting Cat EC-1 specification. Nitrites are part of the additive package that allow the coolant life to be extended to 12 years/12,000 hours provided that the coolant is treated at mid-life with Extender. Cat's own ELC product meets EC-1 spec, as do coolants from various other coolant manufacturers. For example both Prestone & Peak both manufacture an ELC, there may be others. Coolant is a bit different to oil, there aren't so many options around for suppliers. 2) Silicated coolant was used in the former DEAC (Diesel Engine Antifreeze Coolant) specification. It is NOT recommended to mix ELC and DEAC coolants. 3) A lot until you have your coolant analyzed. The attachment should answer most of your questions.
Thank you. I know what is in the machine now, namely cheap parts store extended life, because I put it in last year. It has about 400 hours on it now. I have checked into it and I am 90% sure it is "nitrite free" according to the bottle. If it wasn't going to hurt to leave it in another season I would ....
In your case analysis of a coolant sample would remove all doubt regarding its current condition. Can you post a photo of the part of the label that indicates what specs it meets.? BTW if you come across nitrite-free ELC that is generally for on highway engines and is yellow in colour. Coolant meeting EC-1 spec is generally a strawberry red.
I don't know of any on highway that hasn't been EC-1 for the last 8 years. At least Detroit and Cummins are.
I just looked at the bottles I have laying around the shop, and from trying to remember what I put in there and the color, (yellow) I am pretty sure it is Wal Mart automotive extended life. Looks like it meets ATSM D3306 and D 4985. Most of my other stuff that doesn't have Cat ELC has Peak antifreeze that meets EC-1. I think I was under pressure to get the machine to a job the next morning after we replaced the radiator and Wal Mart was all that was available at 9pm . . . If I don't have to dump it in the process of getting the machine running at operating temperature, I will figure out how to get it analyzed. What I don't understand is why Cat specifies nitrited coolant that meets EC-1, but the Peak "Final Charge" red specifically states both being nitrite free and meeting EC-1.
If it's yellow it will be nitrite-free ELC for on-highway. On paper, but have a Cat Level 2 Coolant Analysis analysis run on it and every time it will come back saying something such as "nitrites value low" or something similar. Been there, done that. For me the Peak "Final Charge NOAT" Coolant is far closer on paper to meeting EC-1. In fact that's what we used to use in place of Cat-branded ELC. https://www.owi.com/commercial/brands/final-charge/heavy-duty-coolants/final-charge-noat-5050
The attachment might help a bit. This is the Shell Coolant line. Two versions of ELC plus a DEAC. Note that the "Rotella Ultra (Yellow) ELC", which is the nitrite-free version, meets Cat ELC specification "for nitrite-free applications" - on-highway use in other words. The nitrited version "Rotella (Red) ELC" meets EC-1, end of - with no caveats as per above. I'm just wondering if OWI have got their EC-1 compliance data ass-backwards between Final Charge & Final Charge NOAT.?
Extract from Cat Offroad Equipment Fluids Recommendations.......
That attachment and links are very helpful. Why is there a difference between on highway and off? Is it related to off highway tending to run hotter for longer due to the lack of airflow? Why would nitrites affect that? Also, I have an early 90's dump truck with a 3406b. I haven't touched the cooling system yet, but I know it has green in it. It also has a Cat 9N-3366 "Coolant Conditioner" on it. Is this more than just a filter? What is the best practice for coolant type in this engine considering the newer coolants available? I don't even know if you can get green anymore very easily.
What is "OAT and HOAT"?
By the colour that sounds like DEAC. The 9N-3366 is pre-charged with solid SCA (Supplemental Coolant Additive) that slowly dissolves over time to maintain the additive package at an acceptable level. Typically the SCA canister is replaced every time the engine oil & filters are changed. An ELC does not require this. Simply dump some liquid concentrate into the radiator at coolant mid-life (6yrs/6k hours). Depending on coolant analysis it might not even require that. You could switch from the DEAC to ELC after a flush. All it would need is to get hold of what is basically and "empty shell" screw-on canister that is the same size as the 9N-3366 and install it in place of that. Organic Acid Technology & Hybrid Organic Acid Technology. Extended Life Coolants in other words. IAT - Inorganic Acid Technology was the old-school coolants (aka "anti-freeze") including DEAC.
A little history as best as I as I recall; the crap show on antifreeze started in the mid eighties and had to do with aluminum engines in cars. When the auto manufacturers decided that a good way to achieve CAFE mileage requirements was to make everything weigh less. Aluminum became the holy grail and erosion on aluminum heads became a thing. Standard antifreeze did not have the right additive package for aluminum and the coolant reacted and put pot holes in heads and blocks. The solution was to add silicates to the package which coated the inside of the passages and prevented the erosion. But then there was a problem for existing cast iron engines, especially diesels. Seems that the addition of the silicates and the heat cycles or something else would cause the silicates to drop out and plug up small passages in things like heads and radiators. So the diesel engine manufacturers said we have to have a "special" silicate free antifreeze and they worked on providing their own brands. DEAC was just standard antifreeze with a Cat acronym added that stood for standard antifreeze with no silicates added. Well sometime around the end of the eighties and beginning of the nineties, one of the three chemical manufacturing plants burned down which created a huge shortage and high cost for standard antifreeze. A gallon jug of unmixed Prestone costing around $2.00 US went to around $12 US. I don't know the full story from there but I think all that spurred the makers and shakers to do some more research and development and they came up with these extended life products. Dexcool as I recall was the product that hit the streets first somewhere around 1995. It looked and smelled like pee and didn't last as long as projected. It was in all the GM products from the factory for awhile. I've heard plenty of people complain about and dump it quick and put in standard. The color of the antifreeze is the standard for identifying hat it is as Nice explained above. The yellow is the basic product that was know as Dexcool way back when. The maroon colored stuff is know by Cat people as ELC and green is standard coolant. If anyone knows more on the subject, please chime in.
That pretty well summed it up John. I do remember the shortage years ago. One problem auto makers had with CAFE and trying to meet requirements that caused many issues was {especially GM} in engines like the iron duke was the engine coolant operating range was raised to 220* to 225* to meet emissions. Which caused a faster break down of the coolant at the time.
Red or yellow?
If an outfit was already using Red ELC in their off-road equipment I would personally put the same in an on-highway truck. If the truck was a single unit then it could have either Red or Yellow put in it.
When ELC came out I remember a Chevron rep tell me expect coolant leaks, the silicates acted like stop leak.
I saw a couple of truck radiators plugged with it.
Cat premix elc was $71 a 5 gallon pail last i looked at price. I feel it's a good value and super convenient on truck. This might be hair off topic but i like it.... Anything i feel is "worthy" i switch to elc and save the old stuff for topping off stuff not as worthy.... Just My 2 cents or 20 dollars not sure where inflation has us at today
$14.20 a gallon and it last for years. I've had people argue with me about getting the concentrate and mixing it myself. I have to remind people that labor is no longer $10 an hour.
55 gallon drum of premix ELC quoted $768.12 at Fabick Cat this morning. My buddy can order me a drum of Shell Rotella NOAT ELC for like $498 or something ... I think I will go that route.
I think there might be something to be said for the water quality in the pre mix also ... ?
The biggest unknown in those curcumstances is not the concentrate, it's what is being mixed with it......... How many people would go to the trouble of buying de-ionized water to mix with the concentrate.? Because in truth that's what it needs. Personally I would describe the difference between DEAC and ELC as being akin to the difference between the Mayflower of 1620 and the Starship Enterprise.
I carry concentrate and distilled water on the truck because there is only so much room to go around. A couple gallons of red, yellow, green, and blue coolant plus water to match but only as much water as amount of any one concentrate. Because it is unlikely that you will need to dump an appreciable amount of coolant on more than one job in a day. Also distilled water is good for other things such as batteries. Also I have a refractometer for testing coolant concentration so if the customer has been adding hose water we can use concentrate to bring it back closer to 50%. Also what if you have an engine full of mud and rust that gets flushed out with hose water, you will never get it back to 50% concentration with the water that stays trapped in the block. Need some concentrate to bring it up before finishing with 50%.
I don't really care to much any more when customers want to go cheap route but to entrain myself i just start talking about the price of cylinder liners and labor to change them and 3-4 weeks down time sometimes i recommend calling around junk yards for prices on used oils or coolants..... i told an operator one time i passed a 5 gallon pal on side of road on way to site maybe i can go back and there would still be some oil in it.... Technically if you treat you coolant and you get the full 12 years out of it it's got to be cheaper than non extended life and as far as always buying cheapest brand i realized if i raised my rates enough people don't call me because I'm cheap they call because they want it done right and in a hurry. But i still have some cheap customers they figured out paying the guy with experience to do it once is still the cheapest. Everyone is so worried about get stuff the cheapest they don't realize they have lots of junk instead of a humble amount of quality stuff. End rant
It's not the stuff from a garden hose that would ever bother me. It's what is in the stream or ditch that they got the water from that becomes a problem. I pulled liners from a 46A one year that had an inch and a half of sediment in the block. None of that water came from a tap I'm sure.
I sprung a bad leak on a water pump once and it was raining. Nursed it back to the shop with water jug and hard hat at every puddle and stream I came across. But I was careful to use clean water. All I got for my trouble was sent home the rest of the day because there were no spare trucks. Should have stayed where it happened and called for a tow truck.
Sometimes you do what you have to do to get you home........ I bet you gave the cooling system a good flush when the water pump was changed though.?
Any idea where such a thing could be found? I guess I have never seen one and I have looked around a bit the last day or two and am turning up nothing. I guess I could also take the filter housing off and make new lines, but the empty filter thing would be awfully convenient for this season.
The Cat 9N-3366 crosses to Donaldson P554071. I think Donaldson P554685 or Wix 24070 should be what you need, but I suggest to check with wherever you buy your filters from. The dimensions of the P554071 & P554685 are identical. Just one has the SCA in it, the other is a filter to pull particles out of the circulating coolant. It will need changing, but not as often as the 9N-3366 which would be every engine oil change. https://shop.donaldson.com/store/en-co/home?_requestid=1010727
Thank you, I can get that WIX number locally.
I'm not sure the Wix canister has a "filter" in it. I know the Donaldson one does.
4070 had a filter element in it 20 years ago when I last used one.
Where possible my preference is to remove the filter, head and lines completely. You can just leave the old "empty" filter on and not bother changing it in the future, but after a couple of years, they tend to rust through.
From what I remember there were valves that shut of the coolant to and from those filters. I seem to recall we just closed the valves and never opened them again after the rust made it through the tin.
When I was wrenching at Yellow/YRC freight the entire fleet of Volvos D-12 and D13 had the coolant filters removed and an aluminum cap installed probably due to the comprehensive PM schedule and use of premixed coolant that had the dca additive already included
Yeah any of the early DD13, 15 & 16 the cartridge coolant filter was to be removed cap installed and marked.
The way it was explained to me is the silicates in the automotive antifreeze were stable when the temperature drop across the radiator was in the range of 10-15 degrees. Heavy duty and truck engines will have a drop of 25-30 degrees in a shorter period of time. The rapid decrease in temperature made the silicates unstable and they would precipitate out of the coolant and plug the radiator.