Does anyone have any knowledge about building ponds on top of limestone shelves? How much clay to leave on top of them,,, etc.. Also, what is your preferred method of dam compaction? Some guys swear a scraper is better for compaction. I dont see how that gets the necessary 6-10'' lifts in the keyway compacted? I use a ride on padfoot roller,,19000 lb range. It fits down in the keyways, and covers the ground better I think. Any thoughts? The ashland pan that this other guy around uses only has 2 tires on the rear, (set on the outside of the bowl).. how does this compact anything when you get in a place where you dont have room to let the tires pass over every inch? Just wanting some opinions, We use a case 602 vibrating padfoot and I think it does a great job of blending each additional lift in with the one before... Thanks all!
The only ponds I have ever built have been retention ponds and it didn't matter if they leaked or not, since their job was just to slow down water and let the sediment settle out. These were the typical retention ponds you would see in a residential or commercial development. I was talking to one of the old timers in my area that has built many large lakes in his career. The last two he built the engineer spec'd a vibratory roller to compact the keyway and dam, those were the only two lakes he had ever built that the dam leaked. Up until those last two lakes, he had always used either scrapers or tandem dumps to roll the keyway and damn in. He blamed the vibratory roller for the damn failures, saying the vibration didn't kneed the clay together like a scraper or tandem would. Now I don't know if this is correct or not, just relaying what I have heard but there may be something behind what they are saying in your area about using scrapers too.:beatsme
We have allot of limestone in my area,if I see very many out cropings of it in the area of the pond or find it while digging test holes I generally try to talk the customer out of building the pond at that site due to limestone having so many cracks & layers in it allowing it to leak.Water seems to run through limestone like a screen door.If you build it I would say a minnimum of 3 feet of compacted clay on top of the shelf.We allso have allot of sandstone ,it seems to be very forgiving when building a pond that will hold water. On small ponds I build & compact them whith a dozer & farm tractor,on larger projects I use a motor scraper to build & compact.
I'm in limestone areas, as for shelves of rock, there are two thoughts here, one is whats below the shelves of rock, how thick are they and what type of clay do you have to pack back in with, not all clays are equall, next is the pond supposed to hold water, how much natural drainage is there into the pond and what conditions are you building it in, sloppy, bone dry, slimy, or just right? There are a lot of variables to hash over or give consideration to, I've done a lot that work and some that don't, it just depends on what the pond is supposed to do for the owner in the end, we build a lot of sediment basins that we don't want to hold water per say, with ponds below them that are supposed to hold water. Now all rock is not the same in all area's, in one area we work there are limestone shelves with a hard clay layer under them about ten feet down and those work great, other area's are limestone as deep as you can dig, not so good for ponds that you want to hold water, as for how deep the clay should be to pack back in, that 2-3 feet PACKED is about right, not measured before you pack, as for anything vibratory, I don't use them and wouldn't think they'd be ideal for packing anything around limestone if water is supposed to stay in the pond and not leak. Next is the debth of the pond, are you talking a few feet deep or 20 plus feet deep of water? it makes a difference and is the rock layer across the whole pond debth or just one corner or on one end or 1/2 or more the debth of the pond's finsihed debth, again it matters as to how to approach the problem. I use dozers and excavators to do everything, sometimes trucks are used but seldom, we pack with tracks as we build, nothing else, when we're packing clay back on rock, we move slowly and try not to vibrate much.
I always was told that dozers alone would. Not get the compaction needed for a dam. I am curious as to how a compactor won't to a better jOb than a tandem dump or tracks alone. Makes no sense to me but I'm asked to get other opinions, and appreciate the input.a roller can be ran without the vibration on too I guess. Some people on here say to add in 6 inch lifts and compact that as u go. So much. Contradictory info. Guess everyone has their own way. Interesting replies so far and I appreciate them! Thanks. Keep em coming
Growing up we built least one a year it seemed and always had the 860 JD scraper putting in the lifts. Best thing bout that was with the paddle you could break your dirt up and go with a 2 inch lift if so desired and didn't have to worry bout clumps. Just keep working your way across and packing as you go. Have had a few where we hit rock in the hillside and always dug as much as we could as close to the plan as possible and then start filling in with clay. Never in 60 years had my grandpa and dad had a pond leak from the dam but had a few that were thin on clay on the body of the pond itself that we drained and mixed clay and bentonite. Many times would have a sheepsfoot on site as well but the scrapers really did a better job. Built many lagoons as well, constructed much the same way and have never had any issues. Attn to detail is what really makes a good pond builder and knowing what the material you are working with. Trbo
Illinoisboy, compaction is a subject that has a lot of opinions and views, some figure it on an as pass basis and layer as they go up, others figure it as a total overall compaction and also moisture content as you go, if you don't have an engineer invovled, you can do about anything you want, if they are involved you have to do as they want done, some will say tracks alone are not the answer, others will tell you they are fine, it all depends on a lot of variables and what your working with as far as size of pond, distance you need to move the dirt, type of dirt, moisture content, machines available to work with, conditions your working in, and the list is endless. To answer your question somewhat, tires do a better job of compacting in most conditions, vibratory type compactors do an excellent job as well in most conditions, its the pounds per square inch factor you need to look at along with the height of the lift on each pass, toss in the work limestone and things get fuzzy, limestone fractures pretty easily, and has fishers and cracks in the layers, things that vibrate cause shifts in those layers underground you can't see, even if you smear or pack a layer of mud over them to seal them up, its the shifting deeper down that cuases leaks, now this is only one opinion from one dirt digger, others opinons may very. If you remove the word limstone from the equation there are plenty of other possibilities for compaction and buidling the pond with, no arguement at all, even faster and probably do a better job of packing, spreading and add speed to the operation, so to sum it up, everyone who puts in an opinion is right, from their perspective, its up to you to figure out what works for your circumstance and how best to approach the problem you've got and project before you. As for getting the pond to seal and pack the dam, I've seen a small ag tractor and pull scraper and skid steer and a small jd 450 dozer build ponds that worked for decades before, others were done with motor scrapers, some with just dozers and all the above done by the same outfit buidlng them all, the guy knew what condtions he was working with and used equipment accoding to what would work at each site to achieve the desired outcome the owner wanted, there is no one answer fits all type solution to every problem, the difference is expereince to draw from to know what will and what won't work and why. Best of luck
When this machine, a static sheepsfoot, will run a ten-inch lift in 3rd gear, a fill is compacted. http://www.ritchiewiki.com/wiki/files/Cat_815_-_facing_left.jpg
I was told clay or coheseve material need to be packed with a sheep foot or in terms Kneeded as a heavy ruber tire truck or loader will do and also the tracks of a dozer . Aggergate or granular material should be packed with a smooth drum machine. Remember compaction can be reached with litle ground pressure if small enough lifts are used. All of the ponds I have built have been packed with dozers, trucks, or a ruber tire loader and all dams have not leaked. Ihave never worked around limestone though.
Is this compaction you need being tested by an engineering firm? If you have a lot of fractures in your limestone simply smearing clay or bentonite clay is not likely to work very long you'll have to either line the bottom with a synthetic liner like what's done with some lagoons or even grout the fractures which can be quite costly. I worked on a sewer lagoon job last year and we used both a towed sheepsfoot compactor behind a tractor, and a self-propelled drum type compactor without the vibrator. Depending on what type of clay you have a single drum compactor can either be highly effective or not work at all I have seen situations in the past where the vibrator actually turned the clay into mud and made more of a mess than it's worth. Effective compaction of clay all depends on the type of clay, moisture content, and how thick you put the lift on. Most places I have worked 12 inches per lift is maximum other places less is preferred. Personally I prefer static compaction as with good soil conditions three passes are all that's needed and with even slightly higher soil moisture a few more passes with the compactor will get your compaction. I always thought the four wheel articulated compactors worked the best for this.
These things were slow, usually pulled by a dozer before somebody woke up to the cost and hooked an ag tractor in front. Slow maybe, but when those spikes rode on top of a fill, buddy, that sucker was compacted. I'd say one of these would be ideal for pond construction, particularly with limesonte in the ground. A vibratory sheepsfoot doesn't work as well a static roller in my experience. And if you leave the vibrator off, it just ain't heavy enough like the old sheepsfoot rollers. http://www.equipmentmartads.com/emaAdmin/uploads/Hunt-Sheepsfoot-3-22.jpg Now, I do like this mother, although it's more for reservoir dams than farm ponds. But it would do the job, no doubt: Austin Bridge used to have one of these Euclid sheepsfoots. God, it was a wild and hairy ride with that 671 Detroit screaming in your ears and dirt clods flying around like shrapnel. You ran it as fast as it could go and stay upright, backing out of it on the turns. After a six pack, however, it was kind of like driving a Ford on a dirt track. Got 'er done, though. http://www.purplewaveauction.com/i/a/2011/20111129const/C5168.JPG
I had a pond dug on my farm and we only used excavator and dozer tracks for compaction. I've got very good clay and this method worked fine. I know most of the time a sheepsfoot roller is recommended. Here is a great resource as far as anything you need to know about ponds goes. The guys on here are experts and very willing to help. They love it when you post pictures of your projects too. http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm
I have done it both ways. I think it is faster and easier to do it with out using a roller when we can. As far as roller getting better compaction than scraper or truck. I was on a job and was having a one heck of a time getting the roller to get the dirt to pass testing. So I had the guys just use the haul trucks to roll the same size lifts as the roller was. didnt have any issues when using the trucks. have done it many other time with scrapers to. it always seems to get a tighter pack with the wheels than a sheeps foot does.
Sheepsfoots work fine you just have to work the soil enough. And if you don't have the room to straddle your tracks you don't have much choice in that to use.