Have been in a new job now for about 4 months, all sounded good at the interview, then spoke to a project manager before I said yes and still sounded good. Well got put onto a different project, but even then things werent to bad to start with. But now all i seem to do is use the digger as a crane and then off to do labouring. Machine hasnt left the compound for 2 weeks. What would make sense is to move the machine and me to another project that needs a digger however seems that management would prefer to have machines sitting idle and operators on tools just incase next week the machine might be needed. Time to move on already I think. I am happy to get out of the machine and help but to be spending most of my time labouring is not what I was expecting. Ok just my little whinge.
I have been on both sides of the fence and it is just as hard to find a good employer as it is to find a good operator. In the rite context, when it is necessary I actually don't mind jumping out of my machine and putting out physically, actually kind of like it. It keeps me in shape and as long as the pay is the same and only temporary I don't complain. It certainly can get frustrating though, that's for sure. I worked for an outfit not long ago (not the one in my most recent pics and videos, I was happy there) that I was almost embarrassed to work for. It was almost all B.S what we did. At times sitting in the seat I wondered why my swamper had been there longer than I and was as good if not better operator than me. But yet he was in the ditch and me in the seat and the tasks we were doing made no sense at all. We were often both 'in the ditch' with the machine sitting when it should have been working or on another job that it was needed....and so on, I could go on. In the end before leaving think long and hard about it and consider the biggest factors. What am I getting paid for this How close to home am I Is there room to get past this point and advance my position in the company
I once worked with an older operator who had a saying for these situations. It was something that he'd picked up from an older operator that he'd worked with, a guy that was an old soldier-- I gets paid the same for marchin as I do for fightin...
Well i dont know if this is the case but i own an excavating company and sometimes it cheap for 2 peopple to be labouring then running the machines and these days its a coat throat bussiness anymore so we try to kepp the cost down and sometimes there isnt another job for the machine to go to, or maybe they haven't got approval to bring the machine in or many number of thing some times my operators get p*ssed at me cause there labouring and thens not whatthey went through school to do but as far as im conserned that it is part of the job like one operater quit cause i made him get out with a shovel and dig against a basement wall instead of using a 30 ton excavator. no offence but i fine the younger the people the more they think they should be able to sit on the a** and move joysticks all day but thats only going to happen when you get in with the big boys where you get in the machine dig the hole then load it on trailer and on to next site and one after another. another reason i keep machines on the job for the day most of the time or what ever is cause im going to need it later on why move it more then once in an out of the same job you know what i mean
The machine is on their job and the operator is on their job X amount of hrs per week, If they are paying the machine rate you are laughing
True lol I ownly charge for when the machine is running gets expensive if I just charge day in and out cause I get on developments where I get $185 for my hitachi 300 and its only used for 4 hours a day some times and then the rest with a dozer I wish I could get paid for every day the machine was on the job that would be nice
Fair enough, perhaps talk to your boss and see what the go is, this may be only a temporary thing while they wait to get other projects underway but if the job is nothing special you might as well pull the pin and try your luck with another mob, there always seem to be a few jobs for ex pilots about, if you got your tickets/licenses you should have no worries getting onto a seat somewhere. Remember by having skilled operators working as labourers, they are taking away a job from some no hoper, I was going to mention Elizabeth but you may be from there. I wonder if surgeons clean the floors when there are no operations to be done?
I think the situation here is that, to use a military setting, having a tank driver or helicopter pilot out the back of the mess peeling potatoes. Sure the specialist might not be fazed if the potatoes need peeling and there is no one else but to have years of training and then be stuck doing a job that takes two minutes to learn is a bit of a kick in the guts.
Some operators refuse point blank to get off the machine and labour.
It is O K if you got 2 machines on a job and get off one and on the other. but you get hrs a day on each. Put them on a job where you get 0 hrs on them a week then its a different story. They hired this man and machine, they took this man and machine to the job, they should pay for man and machine. Maybe I should call Molson's and see if they will park a beer truck on my lot for a couple of weeks just in case I might need a case
If they refuse to get off I hope there good at money mangement lol cause there going to be budgeting real fast I don't got time for jokes on my operations.
I can understand the arguement that you pay for a machine and operator but if the machine is not running, it is not burning fuel or wearing out but still costs money just sitting there. I have a standby/labouring rate which takes this into account but by the same token if I find that people get me on a job with a view to have me just labouring, I will soon tell them what I think. Far as the seat warmers go, most of these are union people who believe in one man/woman one job.
I give my operators $30 an hour so they can't complain and that price is wether they are sitting on the seat or standing on the ground I think its pretty fair.
The issue does not seem to be pay rates but rather doing the job you are trained to do, I understand your situation insofar that the job needs to get done and rather than have 2 labourers at 20/hour it's better for you to have one labourer and one operator on the job. However if you get your operators to spend 90% of their time standing in a trench you may well find that you will be doing a lot of job interviews and may well get a bad reputation amongst operators and then end up with the worst ones. I don't think it is fair to expect a professional plant operator to hang off a shovel the whole day.
I don't think there're that many that can afford that luxury in the current economy..
I make it clear to everybody I hire before I hire them that they are there to work, whatever the work is. Now, if they are an operator or truck driver, and I have operating or driving that needs to be done, of course I want them doing that, cause I make more money when my equipment is moving. But, if shoveling or sweeping is the work that needs to be done, I am not about to pay a man to sit in the cab and feel superior while I or somebody else work. I pay my people well and treat them with respect and have no trouble getting and keeping the people who belong here.
good point there sir. this industry has more time in idle than work. so i think they should understand.
Gentlemen, I know this is a bit of different situation than what you are speaking off, I know what you mean by trained professionals and etc. But really, can we really afford to be all that fussy about the work we're doing? Case in point, my curent job, it's a sizable job for me, started out almost all hand labor, 300+ hrs of it in fact. But being a one man show, and needing the work, I agreed. I found out later that if I had not taken the hand labor with the dozer work, I would not have gotten the job. Now most of that hand labor is behind me, and it's on to the gravy portion of the work. With all due respect sirs, I'd be very careful when playing the card of ......"I'm an operator, thats what I do, I'm not a grunt, sort of thing" If I were tired of being used as hand labor, I guess I'd be very careful of my next move and make sure when ya jump, ya come down on firm ground. I'm not saying anything bad about wanting to make sure you are doing what you are trained for, I just have a belief that their is darn few greener pastures at this current point in time.
Just figured I should clear up a couple of things. At the job interview it was made very clear to me what my role would be, and yes I get the same pay rate no matter what I am doing. As for getting out of the machine yes I am happy to do that and in fact that could be part of the problem. The company I am working for is a fairly large company here and do have operators who wont get out of the seat. The way things started was that when i had finished the trenching for the day i would get out the machine and do what ever I could do to help. Often this was getting on the leg rammer for an hour or so untill all the pipe was in and it was time to tidy up and remove the excess spoil. However now I am just going out and labouring right from the start as the machine I use is not suitable. I have raised it with the company whose response was a little hmm cake and eat it too. They want me operating however they also like that I am able to undertake a range of duties. My point is they didnt employee me for a range of duties and while I will always be happy to get out and help when needed I am not going to spend all my time on a shovel. Problem could be fixed soon as there is heaps of work out near where I am so just a matter of finding one with the same money etc. Ps, I dont live at Elizabeth am out at Angle Vale.
Look I don't agree with the attitude of the cabin queens, who think that because their primary role is plant operations, they do not need to get off their fat behinds and help out, I am saying that is the attitude of some and it is not generally appreciated amongst construction crews (especially when there is some hard hand digging to be done and people take it in turns). I have a few repeat customers who get me on a job because I am willing to help and am good with my hands, have a basic understanding of plans and am always willing to ask questions and double check if I am not 100% sure about something. If I didn't have have that attitude I would not survive in the small end of the industry. Same also applies the other way, if it is my job to dig a trench and there is a bit of hand digging/filling to be done I would not be happy if others stood around watching me, if they could help out. The point still is that if you are hired as a plant operator and spend 80% of your time labouring, you are going to feel a bit cheated and think about greener pastures. It's like cops are always complaining about the amount of paperwork they have to do, they would rather be out policing than sitting in the cop shop filling out paperwork. Most cops signed on to police and not fill out endless forms.
Hey there Hendrik, pretty much agree with all that you said there. Nothing wrong with getting out of the machine and most of us started on the ground and know what it feels like to be working with someone who wont get out. Havent really started looking yet but I have a 15 min drive home and pass 4 major worksites so think I have a good chance of getting work just a matter of dollars.
xrlentau6: I sympathize with your situation, I know what you're going through, I had a job working on a dairy before I was married, granted it was only part time work, but every day when I would get there I'd go there with a fresh attitude and a willingness to work, my thoughts were that if I can show these guys I'm capable of working hard and not afraid of the manual labor I'd more or less get "promoted" to better work as time went on. Of course I had the idea that I'd still have to get out and do the bull work too, but sometimes ya kind of think that there should be a bit of "reward" for your efforts and not taken advantage of. well to make a long story short the guy I was working for hired in some fast talking kid to do the gravy work, and the little S.O.B never would budge an inch to help with the shovel work. If he wasn't sitting in the seat he would not work. I hated it! I wrecked my back working there and finally had to quit do to constant strains on the back. The kicker of the situation is that when I left the guy had to hire in three more guys to do the same job I was doing. I can almost bet that the guys that you are getting off the seat to help really appreciate the fact that you help them. They will surely miss you if you decide to leave and they have to hire two extra people to do what you are doing.
I often work for a company doing groundworks on railway jobs,drive diggers,dumper,telehandler,swap between machines,get off do setting out,steel fixing,concreting,basically most jobs if machine not working,because I'm self employed operator this helps me turn days/week hires into 7 month jobs,just now the economic climate over here in UK means you get work if your useful,if you're not on a bulk muckshift you can't expect to sit in idle machine,plus it's more interesting from my point of view?
Which raises another issue, often you get this sort of situation where the boss has pets that get the good jobs, all the time. Sure if someone has been there a while they tend to get the better gigs but if this happens all the time, people do get annoyed and morale suffers.
We do underground utilities, urban, rural, steep ground, soft ground. Operators are a dime a dozen compared to good pipelayers/ leadmen. Usually the best operators started as pipe crew and get paid operator wages regardless of the job. In my experience the really top hands can operate and or lay pipe and or supervise the crew. Most of them care more about the pay rate than the job. Don't complain learn as much about the business as possible.
I have seen the young operators... they will let a laborer talk them into digging the one more bite... We were excavating near that old ciba geigy fiberglass pipe.. you cant even look at it without it breaking.. they were to hand dig the last foot... but the lazy 3 si's... kept inching him down.. now when you can see a valve bonnet .. experience would say stop... but they didn't...nor did the operator... they were wet little laborers.. they didn't have a chance to climb from the ditch.. they had to swim... 3 of the 6 fire pumps kicked on when the line broke... I think they are v-12 cat powered pumps I've seen the warm bodies that are a dime a dozen... they can barely hit the ground with a backhoe bucket... laborers are the same way.. most think it's easy setting in the seat of a hoe... it ain't... I'll shoot my tracks... if a laborer offers to help then that's fine.. there are operators that won't even touch their tracks... Years ago that was the laborer's job ..shoot tracks it was the hoe hoed ... the loader loaded.... and the labor ... well labored Mostly when you hire on .. you accept what the boss sets as what is expected of you.. for me it's an operator... if you want a laborer then change your ad..
our policy is that you are being paid for your time not always for your skill and anytime someone can get operator pay for general hand tool work they be thankfull because its a lot better than the couch
Unless your running a scraper or working at a mine your job is whatever your boss tells you it is for the day! I am a foreman i make 30$hr and i dont even batt an eye if my crew has little work or is slow we move over and help out our other crews. And alot of the time i am in the ditch or benching manholes... Why because i am Thankful that i am employed. And for that matter i love swiching guys around on my crew just so everyone can apreciate the jobs that have to be done day in and day out. Like i tell my guys you will never apreciate that machine unless you know where you will be demoted to, aswell as the labourors get a chance to deal with some of the situations that the oporators are in. To me it sounds like your in the wrong business Why dont you try truck driveing ... Or what i love to see when guys are sitting is Grease that machine and clean the damm cab out ! Best of luck
Guess the thing is work is not slow down here, understand that things around the world might still be slow but things here have really picked up. Prior to the whole GFC thing I used to work for myself as a one man operation so if the road needed sweeping I did it, hand digging by the house- i did it. I then went and worked for a pipelaying company and spent most of my time on the tools. I didnt complain as that was what the job was. After 6 months I was made a Team Leader where I tired to stay on the ground as much as I could and got other people to operate. For a few different reasons I started looking elsewhere and came across a my current job, " Plant Operator" the money is the same as I was getting paid and the hours better. As a "operator" I am alsways happy to get out and help as I think its rude to just sit in the machine and watch work mates and also helps to keep in some kind of shape. As for the greasing etc on the days when the machine is used I grease it prior to use and also grease and then at the end of the shift I wipe down the controls and dash etc and sweep out the cab. My issue is that I am lucky to use the machine 1 day a week so for the rest of the time I am just working as a labourer. Why? because the project manager wants to make sure he has a machine around in case its needed. Not sure thats the right thing to do with a $250,000 machine when it could be used at any number of other projects. But hey maybe I am not suited to this kind of work?
This thread has shown a few things: Whos a "Boss" Whos going to be a "Boss" Whos going to be doing the same thing.................... lts simple around here, you get paid well for your trade what ever that may be, you do what ever needs to be done to get the project finished, if you dont like it theres the door.
Im a small operation, albeit Ive got pretty good amount of equipment. When I put an ad for an operator- It says Operator-Laborer. If its for a laborer, it says Laborer -Operator/Driver. Like some of the other guys here, all my guys are expected to do everything. My #1 guy now grew up same as me, working for his dad-which means hes just as happy running an excavator as he is pulling a rake or mowing my lawn on a slow friday. Just thankful he punching in. As am I.
Im an owner and opererator, thats what you should consider. I do fencing and excavating. When I go to a job to quote I make sure that my equipment is needed. Ill hire a friend or family if there is grunt work to do. this allows me to operatate the machines and do what I do best. Im certainly not above getting out of the machine at times to shovel , chainsaw ,etc. But I did not get into this business to break my back, if thats the case I could do framing. To many of my friends who are in construction have had thier bodies breakdown now that they have reached thier 40's-50's as a result. The reason I got into this is because I saw men in their 70's operating the equipment and figure its a long term career that pays well. My jobs are relatively small $3k-$5k and so are my customers. I make it clear to my customers that Im not doing hard, chaingang type labour. And simply dont take on jobs that require that. Im not arguing with anyone here about what employees are expected to do and I respect that they get work for the employees. But for this post I understand your concerns. Owner/operator may be the way for you to go.
I think some people don't quite understand the original nature of this thread, the question was should an operator be expected to do an unreasonable amount of labouring, especially if this was not made clear in the job specifications? The current status of the economy is not the point and answering the question based on that is not what was asked. Obviously when times are tough and their are more experienced behinds than seats, you will try and hang onto a job, especially if the pay is good but in order to answer this question you have to look past that and work on the basis that there are other job vacancies.
You think this is bad just wait until you get promoted again to babysitter. If you are unhappy its alway nice to get the boss a crack at making it better before you up and quit. Just don't let him blow smoke up your butt.
I myself would stay as i know there is going to be manual labour envolved like look what kind of industery your in its not an easy one thats for sure. I'm an owner/operator and ive been down in the trenchs that are 7'-8' ft deep in mud up to my knees well my employee is sitting in a nice warm cab does it bother me no cause i know it part of the job i treat each person evenly. theres times when i'm sitting in the seat and there doing the grunt work but i swich it up
In my experience the operators where I was working would get out and give you a hand. The site super could operate all the equipment and also was in the ditch to locate the service with his shovel in hand. That works well. But if some one is hired as an operator, I would expect the majority of their time would be operating.
Thanks all for the repleys, all have at least been good to get me thinking. Guess where I am coming from is my last job, they didnt employe "operators" we where all employed as operators/labourers so it was clear that a good part of your job would be spent on the tools. The reason for this was they didnt want operators who refused to get out of the cab. The company I work for now is a bigger company and at the interview explained they have clear roles, pipe layers, labourers, truck drivers operators etc. No while more than happy to get out and help I didnt take the job to be a labourer. Times when you are trying to hand dig to expose a service I am happy to get out and help, or in fact do it all as ofter there is no one else there. As I think about it this seems to be the issue, a shortage of labourers. As there are so much work the company seems to have trouble keeping staff and this inculdes labourers. Have spoken to the company about it a few weeks ago and was told that they want me "in the seat" as much as possible but things havent changed. Its a bit like if you where employed to sell cars. You wouldnt mind giving them a wipe down and a hose off at the start of the day. However if all you did was wash cars you would find somewhere else to work. I must say one thing did cross my mind and that was am I a crap operator? however all the feedback has been good with my direct supervisor even saying I am worth more money. I am getting close to being 40, and feel its time to look after my self as I want to be able to still be working when I am 60 (would be nice not to have to). Have been in a range to roles in the past and like the idea of being about to leave the job at work with out taking stress home. Ok time to apply for a few jobs now. Thanks all.
the short and direct answer is to move on, if you feel they didn't hold up their end of the deal, move on, if the work is plentiful and you have the skills, what are you waiting for? move on. You have the best scenario, excellent operator, very knowledgeable at running a business, plenty of work, why not go back into business for yourself?
Hey guys an update on my situation. Of course I have been and spoken to management about this and have now heard back. The company has another project starting up soon and I am going to be moved there to be trained up on another form of equipment for a couple of weeks. At the same time the digger that I have been using is moving to another project and I will then be moved there and will be spending much more time in the seat. The good things are all of these projects are within 15 minutes from home, the feedback has been that I look after the machine and they are wanting me to stay in it. It may not be the best machine in the world as its a JCB but its new and everything works (only had 450 hours when I got in it). I know it might seem like I was complaining about things but what I was doing wasnt what I expected when I took on the job, seems that all is going to be sorted. Happy digging.
Great to hear your results and a good lesson, talk to your employer, be reasonable and things may just work out for ya. Good luck and I think its been a great thread.
good to hear it worked out for you. when I started with my current company I labored more than any thing for the first 3 months. then they started putting me on machines and saw what I could do. now I operated more than labor. I don't mind because so days it is labor some or go home. It all pays the same and better than setting home.
That's great it worked out for you! Glad you didn't make any rash moves or complain too loudly to your supervisors about it. Sounds like you eventually got the position you wanted when you hired out. I don't know your individual situation or the kind of work you are doing but as a superintendent, I know in my situations I will not run a machine that doesn't NEED to be run just to make an operator happy. The fact that you hung in there and didn't throw a fit will get noticed by the boss or bosses, believe me. It may not seem like much now, but what you did will probably help you in the long run, especially when layoff time comes if you have one. Around here we have to layoff some employees during the winter. Good luck!
I´m every day watching newspapers from all over the world, you won´t have any problem to get one or two new jobs better than your current job, if you look the pape´s advertisement from Spain you instantly begin to cry, here only there is offer for bitchs,hehehe, don´t worry man