In the interests of full disclosure, I work, and have worked for 26 years, for a multi national engine parts manufacturer, specialising on American Diesel engines. I have been in the Off Highway business for 48 years in different countries. My question relates to comments received from USA colleagues on the age of the market in the USA, they tell me that the equipment and therefore the engines in use in the market are not old like they are in the rest of the world. Talking about Cat 3200, 3300, 3400, 3500 engine series, Cummins NH220, NT855 variants, QSB, QSC, QSL, L10, M11, and K Series engine series, Detroit 53, 71, 92 Series, Deere 4039 - 6081 models, you get the picture. On the Truck side I can understand due to emission laws, but reading the Thread's on this Forum I find many references to the old equipment, I understand a little that it could vary State to State. Hopefully I can learn more from the many knowledgeable people on here.
My initial thought is if this question were asked 10 years ago, it would be a very different answer. Prior to 2010, I'd guess that over 50% would fall into the range of engines listed, and if you removed the 2-strokes, probably considerably higher. Currently, with these manufacturers rolling out new models every other year that share NOTHING with previous models, and consequently dropping parts support, I'd be surprised if the number would be much higher than 30%.
In California, the old engines are no longer allowed due to emissions. Their laws have been adopted by many other states. Here is an anecdote: I worked a 1945 derrick crane that has been re-engined over the years and had a Cummins 350 for the main and a Cummins 400 for the hydraulics. The 400 was a sweet running engine, but because of a deal made with the EPA it was pulled and destroyed, and replaced with a modern Cat. The same thing happened with a dump barge. I did not see the old power but I ran the new power right after the installation. That was a dumb application, because it did not run long enough to get a good regeneration. It runs long enough to open and close the barge, then is shut down and reloaded over the next 12 hours. I would have to run it to tighten up the barge in the middle of loading a couple of times. I have not been back to see if they replaced the 350 but I suspect they did.
The emissions regulations for off road engines started in 1996 with Tier 1 and ramped up in severity till it has reached Tier 4 Final that is in force today. Two factors are affecting the age of engines currently in use. The first is the limiting of the number and types of jobs that machinery of a certain age is allowed to work on. The second in the availability of replacement engines and parts when those older engines fail. US laws specified that replacement engines, that is complete engine or major components like engine blocks could no longer be manufactured after a certain Tier Rating had been passed. I believe that currently applied to Tier 0, 1, 2 and possibly Tier 3 at this time. Engine blocks built in those time periods are required to be destroyed when exchanged for another engine. I have clients with engines that have no availability of new parts. Tier 1 engines are at twenty years old now and the biggest share has been cycled out of main stream heavy use. What is still running are part of the small company and hobby (farms, ranches and individuals) markets. In many if not most cases, when those engines die, that's the end of the machine. What percentage of the markets would that be? One could only guess.
The rules as to parts supply is such that at 9 years after last of a particular model is produced the supply manufacture is stopped and all inventory is allowed to run down to Zero. N and NT Series Cummins stopped over 20 years ago, Detroit Series 2 strokes closer to thirty, Cat still uses a base engine block for some industrial engines but ceased heavy truck constructs IIRC in 2007 or 8. As noted by John C newer engine models roll out at roughly 2 year intervals, last of a model line ends at nine years after that date for each run out. Are some aftermarket works producing internals but those are being hounded by Environmental regulators world wide to remove the older engines.
This forum, or a farming or forestry forum, isn't representative of the real work that's being done day to day. There are more do it yourselfers and hobbyists working on their own equipment, and fewer fleet managers like Nige that oversee the bulk of equipment that does the bulk of everyday work. LOTS of old engines in use, even working everyday, but the economics dictate that the market for major overhauls is relatively low, often cheaper to find another engine.
And when I hear **** like this, I want to blow a thread up. Forcing their own agenda down the collective throat. I have never heard that manufacturers had to actively engage in removing their own engines (that they, in the private sector, spent hundreds of thousands, if not millions OF THEIR OWN MONEY to design and produce) because some pencilneck crybaby got a law (more likely a ***REGULATION) pushed through. **** these guys. And I mean that with the utmost animosity and sincerity.
So, I now know who the hell is actually to blame for me not being able to buy a brand new N14 block. And here I've always blamed it on the private sector. Makes me want to puke.
Do you really think the manufacturers fight very hard against regulations that force the sale of new equipment?
Probably not, but at least there would be a better chance for the good stuff to survive if they kept their nose out of the private sector.
Trust me, I'm on your side. I work with corrosives in swamps, I will quit before buying new equipment.
“Talking about Cat 3200, 3300, 3400, 3500 engine series, Cummins NH220, NT855 variants, QSB, QSC, QSL, L10, M11,and K Series engine series, Detroit 53, 71, 92Series, Deere 4039 - 6081 models, you get thepicture.” I don’t know. That stuff is awesome, but it’s not economical or feasible to run anymore. Well, nobody is paying me to fix any of it. How many people are rescuing it from the scrap yard and hoarding it? I’d say it’s being melted down, quickly. But, it’s durable and lasts. There is probably a bunch of it around, with some products more regionally popular. Holy cow, what’s up with home owner, do-it-your-self types, buying up all the worn out 235B’s for their backyards? You could probably purchase a fleet of 235B’s just from the HEF. That’s my rambling.
I run a bunch of older equipment 71 series Detroits, 32 and 34 series Cats. I hate to see the writing on the wall but its there. I can still run this stuff in major ports here as long as i pay for a yearly permit for each machine. Is this about the enviroment or the cash?
We all know the answer to that. At least those of us that have to write out the checks.
My take on it is that mostly ESG investors are driving these "environmental " changes. 2 of the world's largest investors are at the peak. An example, one of the big four banks has now stopped licensed firearm owners from purchasing ammo on their credit cards because it doesn't meet their community standards. Buying grog and gambling are ok though. This is Australia.
If the insurance companies had there way. There wouldn't be any old cars on the road either
The issue is with the voters who elected representatives to decide what was best for them. The voters are us and we are the government. The other issue is that we are not experts with the credentials to lay out rebuttals against the eco industry. My final point is that what is done is done. No use crying and whining about now. Start looking for the opportunities that the situations will present which I suspect the OP is doing.
Thank you for all your insights. Understanding the USA is probably as difficult for me as understanding the global market is for some of you, difficult to get a handle on it all. With 50 states in the USA and some the size of 2/3 European countries a full picture is difficult to imagine. The parts for the old engines are still freely available in the Global Aftermarket from several suppliers, the 2 Strokes are still popular in some niche markets like the US and NATO military workshops, also the OEM (MTU) is still offering parts for the 2 stroke 53 & 71 engines. On the Cat engines crank, cam and balancer shafts and also blocks and heads are still being manufactured on the 3300 & 3400 engines. A point to remember is the majority of USA OEM's do not manufacture engines or engine components, and the 4 major manufacturers who do, all have aftermarket operations, so with a little investigation you can buy the same parts.
Yup, took a tour of Lycoming air-o-plane engines with a group. Noticed they only assembled there, and most all the boxes were from a supplier of automotive engine parts from Brazil. Some of us pilots were not happy with what we saw.....
Is this the same for Corvair aero engines?
Corvair engines are not FAA approved. Your Home in Homebuilt Aviation (flycorvair.net) For what you pay for a fully FAA approved Lycoming engine, we were not amused.
By "large 4 manufacturers" I was of course referring to the component manufacturers !, not machine/truck OEM's.
This reminds me of how some airlines, having work done on aircraft and engines out of this country due to the better cost. And we all know the paper work required for the FAA will be spot on, but the work it self? Here they bust your rear to become a licensed aircraft mechanic, I'm sure paper wise in those country's it says all those mechanics have the same training so they can work on American planes or parts, but I bet many may not be very qualified at all. I would bet many of those Brazil parts are not even close to the proper material specs that they are suppose to be. I've seen some small plane engine stories of bad parts scrubbed from the internet, as I can't find a few I read years ago. Likely to help out from some law suits. All this talk here in this thread tells me we should be allowed here to talk about the real issues. Sticking heads in the sand will not help solve a thing. It relates to the forbidden P subject.
You could start a forum to discuss the P word, and invite people to join, but from experience, unless everyone is like minded in every aspect of P, then it just turns to a big fight