Hell-o This is not my first tractor, I have been tractorless for 20 years. This is my first full-size backhoe. I do not yet have possession, I purchased it through a dealer that had it on consignment. Paid $8,000, had the dealer go through it and having a bunch of work done before it is delivered. An agreed on repair price was arrived at for the following repairs 1 a) Free up swing pedals for back hoe b) Adjust Brakes 1) Repair hand brake c) Fix Hand Throttle (remove pipe extension) d) Leaks Repack swing cylinders and Power steering e) Replace Pins and Bushings, stabilizing arms f) Add Block Heater g) Complete Service change all Fluids, complete grease job , and filters 1) Engine oil and filter 2) Power Steering oil and filter 3) Engine Air Cleaner 4) Torque Converter Oil and Filter 5) Torque Tube oil and Breather 6) Transmission / Differential oil and Breather 7) Diesel Fuel water trap drain 8) Primary Fuel Filter 9) Final Fuel Filter Cooling System drain and refill They said the brakes just needed adjustment, but now think it is more than that, both times I have gone and checked on progress I have had no brakes. My old IH504 had terrible brakes even with new brakes (same style brake). J Just how well should these brakes work? I have been trying to find on the internet a comparison of models of the Case tractors and cannot find one. I do not have with me the serial number to look up the exact year. This is not my machine but is what it looks like, and about the same looking condition (my tires are all dry-rotted but will not be doing any highway driving). Thoughts and guidance is appreciated.
Congratulations a 580B was my first backhoe and it did a ton of work.
Welcome to HEF, Glenn ! Here is a link to all the info about your 580B. ----> http://www.tractordata.com/industrial-tractors/000/1/0/103-ji-case-580b-dimensions.html It is basically a twin to the 580C but there are a lot of differences between the two of them. If a dealer is repairing the brakes it can get into some serious money to fix them depending on what they need to do.
Here's the manual on your 580B. http://files.minnpar.com/partbooks/BACKHOE MANUALS/CASE (CNH) BACKHOE MANUALS/CASE 580 SERIES PARTS MANUALS/CASE 580B/CASE 580B SERVICE MANUAL.pdf Your brakes are just like the ones on my 480C, except yours are mechanically actuated with a rod and lever system, mine are actuated with master cylinders and wheel cylinders with fluid. Your brakes are not on the axles and wheels themselves, the brakes are on spur shafts coming out of each side of the transaxle further up the gear train. This gives the brakes a mechanical advantage and more stopping power. These spur shafts have a multi-piece disc that has brake material on each side. Surrounding the OD of this disc is the metal band that is connected to the actuating mechanism, in your case the mechanical rod. When you actuate the brakes, the rod pulls on the band and the band squeezes the OD on the disc. As it slows the disc, the disc swells in width. The disc has braking material on it's sides, and this rubs the side of the transaxle and the heavy metal bolt on housing on the outside. If you get everything freed up mechanically, it should work ok. I had problems with the brake seals on mine, and also things being froze up. Once I got everything working I noticed the brake on the left side would lock up. The only way I could get it to free up was to put the tractor in reverse. After taking it apart multiple times, taking the disc apart and inspecting it for problems, I have finally come to the conclusion my brake material has been contaminated with oil from the transaxle. I have had this problem before with cars and trucks, when the leak causing the contamination has been repaired, no amount of brake cleaner can properly clean all the contamination from the pads, it's soaked into the pads. It will always be gummy and sticky. If they find any contamination of the brake pads on your tractor, I would get them to replace the seals in the transaxle. This is not as easy as it sounds.
Thanks for responses. I do have the manuals. The job does not look all that difficult, parts (the expanding drum) might be expensive. I would do the work myself, but time is of the essence. I need to dig a trench for power, gas and water to my new shop before winter sets in. They are already talking about frost. Worst case is take it as is and fix them later. Trench is on level ground. I paid for a prepurchase inspection on the backhoe. I specifically asked them to check the brakes. I was told at the time all they needed was adjustment. Last visit they talked about the "bands" being glazed. If it is more than than (I have looked at videos) I am hoping that their prepurchase inspection and response will get me something, who knows in this day of not excepting responsibilities. Glenn
So... The back and forth has started. Just go a call from the dealer stating the tractor will not be ready on time. Purchase was three weeks ago, repairs were supposed to be completed on Monday for finial inspection, of this week, to be delivered on October 1st. This delay was not unexpected. Adjustment and cleaning of the "bands" has not fixed the brakes. They want to call me back on Monday with a quote. I went through the discussion , You did a paid for preinspection, quoted a price, unit was purchased based on the preinspection and quoted repair price. Response was let's see what the costs are. I suspect the response will be this is the cost. Maybe they will accept the labor and not parts (smallest part of the cost). We will see. Note from this dealer in the past I have purchased a IH 504 industrial 3000 series front end loader, a 10 foot offset bush-hog, and a 8 foot landscape rake. The week before I purchased the Chase I purchased from this dealer a LS XJ2025 H tractor, a LS Subframe, LS Backhoe, 5" Bushhog finish mower, and LS 50" front snow blower (all NEW $26,000). JD could not come within $8,000 for the same stuff. It is not like I have not spent money here. Glenn
You can get parts cheap on ebay. I have rebuilt 4 or 5 of my cylinders, the packing kits are about $30 per cylinder. You can get new linings for the "expanding drum" and install them yourself. The expanding drum comes apart, you can clean it up, inspect the little metal balls and the grooves, install the new linings and be ready to go. I put new tie rod ends on mine (ebay, $9 each). I re-packed one of my steering cylinders myself, failed attempt #1, ordered another kit and tried it again with success (ebay, kit was about $10). If that failed again I was going to buy a whole new steering cylinder (ebay, $70). In other words, if you want to do the work yourself, you can save a lot of money. And you are correct, if the brakes sort of work, you can get by with it. Loading and unloading on the trailer is not much fun, but on the jobsite, you just need to get it where the digging is going on, and then you can move it around and stop it with the front bucket and the hoe. If you are going to be doing a lot of loading into a dump truck or hauling dirt around in the bucket, the brakes can become a problem. P.S. If you need to replace the seals on the transaxle to keep the oil off the brakes, that is the part that takes a little bit of time and know how. There is a good thread on here somewhere, where one of the guys describes how to do it, you have to fiddle with some shims, and I think you need to lock the brake on one side to hold the shaft while you do the other side. I think the seal is pretty much impossible to get in place without the other side holding it.
I see no leakage from the covers that would indicate a bad seal. I will know more on Monday. I will keep you posted. Time is my enemy here. I may end up taking it as is, digging the trench with the compact tractor, repairing the big tractor over the winter, and doing my grading next summer (this entails moving a lot of dirt.) I will post the projects on my YouTube channel and the links here (tractor repair, trenching, and grading). Glenn
I don't think it's a question of being able to find the parts cheaper. I'd hold the dealer to price quoted considering it had a paid pre-purchase and a price quoted to do all the repairs listed which includes the brakes. I'm guessing the dealer missed a few steps on the pre purchase but that's on them. If they would have inspected the brakes properly they would have known they required more that an adjustment and could have said they'd have to investigate further to come up with a price. They didn't do that and gave a price. Hold them to that price! What a way to shaft a loyal customer.
Hi, Glenn, I've had a 580B since 1987 on my stump ranch. I've not had many problems except for two areas on the loader: the loader frame cracked on both sides just below the loader pivot towers, right at the lower end of the loader frame oil tanks. Had to gusset it. It can get exciting to weld in that area 'cause you can"t get 100% of the oil out right at the bottom of the tank. I had to put a flow of nitrogen into the tanks to keep things from getting exciting. The loader arms also cracked on the underside right at the crossmember. They are a pain to weld-- I am not good at overhead and vertical welding! Other than the occasional hose, my only other beef is with the backhoe swing and boom pin slop. Especially the swing, where twenty thou of slop in the pins means the bucket can move 6+ inches. I have a lot more slop than that so it makes things a little wild when you are trying return the bucket into a trench! The pin holes are not lined with bushings so to fix them they have to be align bored to install bushings to tighten things up. You are right, the brakes suck-when roading the machine. They are fine for working--this is, of course, assuming they work! They are dead simple so I can't imagine they would be costly to fix. Sounds like the dealer is a bit of a jerk, screwing around after he quoted a fix, especially after you bought all the new iron from him! Good luck! Jon.
I wish it was that simple. You are right, but he has me over a barrel with my time crunch. The only way to avoid paying (and he has as of yet given me a price) is to take it as is, not dig the trench, put the shop behind schedule and fix the brakes myself. I have a race that I could skip in Bowling Green and that would give me a week to do the work. I'm in a wait a see mode now. I did not lose my temper with the last conversation, maybe he will do the right thing on Monday????? I will check those areas, Thanks. I have welded gas tanks by drying them out and then flooding them with exhaust from a vehicle. Not something I want to do every day. the boom does have some sloop but not more that I would expect from a machine this age. What is a stump ranch? This is the place I am buying, going for the finial walk through today at 10:00 https://www.howardhanna.com/Propert...er-Road-Macedon-NY-14502/RochesterNY/R1132037 Yes I am getting three barns. The trench that needs to be dug runs from the brown barn on the right to the house for power, water, LP. When the remodel and addition was put on the house the power to the white and red barns was cut so that has to be dug as well (before the snow flies).
If your brakes need parts you might have to wait anyway. Unless it gets really cold for a week or more a little frost won't make any difference. It takes quite a while for ground to freeze too. I had to dig some trenches in soft ground and wait about 3 weeks for the ground to freeze hard enough to drive on and this was wet ground that should freeze easier. I actually broke through the frost and got stuck and it froze overnight. Thankfully the gravel pit brought over a D5M LGP and got me out. It wasn't easy as the D5 went through the frost and the loam underneath had no traction. I have Cat 931B crawler loader with a similar size backhoe to the Case. That machine should be able to dig 3 or 4 inches of frozen ground pretty easily. Once you get the trench started digging it longer will be easier. If you had to thaw a little ground to get started could be as simple as having a little bonfire or using a weed burner torch. The dealer messed up and you shouldn't pay for their mistake. It's like them saying, yes we gave you a price but that's not what it will cost... because we didn't properly look into what the brake issue is. They gave you a price not an estimate and there's a big difference considering you paid for a pre-purchase inspection. Curious what the price they quoted was. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that this dealer thinks you have lots of money (your rich with racing, bought a new acreage, etc.) and figures it's no problem for you to pay what ever they want. Do they really want to lose you as a customer because of their greed and/or lack of business etiquette??? I wouldn't think so because you still spent a lot of money there and may have more to spend in the future. Depending on their attitude, I might even tell them to forget the deal altogether. That might make them reconsider too. You might even be able to rent a trencher pretty reasonably to dig your trenches. Nice place you bought!
If the brakes are the only holdup, tell them to deliver the machine so you can get your trenching done and they can have it back to fix the brakes when you're done. [ Work out the deal of how much first] You won't need serious braking capacity to do that. Go slow, shift into neutral and drop the bucket if necessary.
I'm 70, not worried so much about the ground being frozen as myself, should have looked harder for an enclosed cab. I do know how to dress for it, just not looking forward to it. This is exactly what they are saying and using it as a reason to increase the price. "It's like them saying, yes we gave you a price but that's not what it will cost... because we didn't properly look into what the brake issue is. The reality is that is how businesses operate today, there is no integrity any more, when was the last time a deal was done on a handshake? The Case was on consignment, the purchase money went to the original owner. No going back there, and not sure I want to as the backhoe is pretty straight. The New compact tractor has a deposit put down on it and I could walk away, maybe, the comparable JD was much more expensive and not as robust. (things like the rear end is metal where the JD is aluminum) Repair costs were quoted at $2,500 a) Free up swing pedals for back hoe b) Adjust Brakes 1) Repair hand brake c) Fix Hand Throttle (remove pipe extension) d) Leaks Repack swing cylinders and Power steering cylinders (four total e) replace three sets of hoses e) Replace Pins and Bushings, stabilizing arms f) Add Block Heater g) Complete Service change all Fluids, complete grease job , and filters 1) Engine oil and filter 2) Power Steering oil and filter 3) Engine Air Cleaner 4) Torque Converter Oil and Filter 5) Torque Tube oil and Breather 6) Transmission / Differential oil and Breather 7) Diesel Fuel water trap drain 8) Primary Fuel Filter 9) Final Fuel Filter Cooling System drain and refill I do not come off as rich, and am not, my racing is on a shoe string, tow motor home is 20 years old, we have a 10 year old trailer. I park next to guys with million dollar rigs. Dragster chassis was built for me, I did the rest (engine, plumbing, wiring). Thanks for the input. Glenn If it is delivered without brakes it will not go back as I will do the brakes myself. It will be the first project on restoring the backhoe. Yes I see myself doing that and posting on the YouTube channel. I have built many vehicle in the past, just nothing this size and weight. Glenn
So just ask for money off the purchase.
The Case was a consignment purchase. Dealer did not get the purchase money (he got a percentage for selling the unit). Ten years ago I would have been all up in a huff over this thing. I would have fought and fought. It has just gotten to a point that it is extremely hard to find people that stand behind their dealings. Get more than two parties involved in a deal and it becomes impossible. The only direct contact with the dealer was the preinspection and work quote. I will wait till I hear back from the dealer on what he is going to charge. My thinking at this moment is take it as is and do the work myself. Certainly a sorry state of affairs. It has been awhile since doing a restoration/build and I am kind of getting excited about doing this one. My big problem is I need the machine to trench for power to the barn which will become my shop. What I might be able to do is to get him to refund the money for the inspection. Glenn
It doesn't matter if it's a consignment and you can't label all dealerships the same. No, legitimate businesses don't operate like that. What was the purpose of the pre-inspection when you "specifically asked them to inspect the brakes"? They gave a price for repairs and it wasn't for $200. I realize your 70 but that's not a reason to let them get away with this crap. I don't know if your read the long, long post on the D6C with loss of oil pressure but the OP on that was ready to give up but finally listened and took advise from several members on here and got his machine fixed when at one time he was ready to pay the dealer $4000 and they keep his machine. I'd cancel the deposit on the new tractor and find the same machine at a dealer in another town. I'd rather pay another dealer a couple hundred for delivery than support the scam dealer. Chances are you cancel that sale and they'll suddenly be open to negotiating. It's actually not that bad of hit for them. Losing you as customer would be a much bigger hit. Your $8000 backhoe is now a $10,500 backhoe and it's approx. 45 years old. For $10,500 it should have working brakes.
Before i do anything I will wait and see what the dealer comes back with on Monday (I have already stated my case (paid for inspection, received a quote, purchased in the past). I do not really hold out for any hope. I believe I will end up taking it as is. It seems they just do not care about the long game any more, it is all about the short term buck. As far as dealer ships and service centers go I have not encountered a good one in the last 20 years once the problems arise. They are all fine and dandy until there is a problem. Glenn
Don't wait to see what the dealer will do, tell them you want your deposit back on the tractor until they fix the brakes on the backhoe. I bet they didn't even look at the brakes even though they were paid and specifically told to. If they say no, demand it! Sometimes you have put your foot down and this is one of those times. Stop basing everything on what other dealers have done. You have the perfect opportunity to get what you agreed to not what the dealer reneged on. After they screw you around why in the world would you buy a new tractor from them??? Makes absolutely no sense at all. By the way what kind of tractor are you looking at buying?
Well they have done just what I expected. Excepted none of the responsibility. I told them to stop, and hung up the phone. I'll wait for a call or call back later this week. This is the new tractor (not mine, just an image of it). The Case will be used to move large quantities of dirt. If the situation with the Case works itself out I will be doing a restoration on it. It will be a nice project, from reading the manual and looking on line the work does look all that hard (except fro change the fan belt which blow my mind). Tomorrow starts the move of the shop to the new location, Thursday is the home move, so Friday I will most likely go over and try and resolve this in person.
Why does it not surprise me that a smaller line less popular dealer is treating you like this? You would think they would be bending over backwards to earn a good reputation. If they weren't familiar with the Case, why they heck would they give you a price for repairs? They say when buying a vehicle you have to be prepared to walk away if you don't get the deal you want. No difference for buying a tractor. I'd straight up tell them to fix the brakes on the Case or forget the deal on tractor. They give you any attitude and ask them if they'd like to forget the deal on the Case too. If they gave a you a price and don't honour it might be grounds for backing out of the deal.
Other things to worry about today.....moving....will come back to this on Friday. Glenn
Sorry to hear/read about the problems w/ the dealer.. IF you just need the Case to dig a trench & the front loader to remove the dirt?? Just RENT a "trencher".. they'll deliver it & show u how to use it.. dig the trench, it puts the dirt on the side of the hole.. lay your wire & shovel/kick the dirt back it.. 300.00 & done.. & u get to tell the dealer to "cram-it".. & your no longer at the mercy of the time crunch.. AND if u REALLY WANT the Case... the "cram-it" call might just get u a DEAL on the brake job.??
1st thing I did to mine before working on the brakes is I took the metal floorboard out. That was a real pain, but an even bigger pain was to lay on my back and wrestle with those brake housings. Plus, taking the floorboard out, I was able to work on all the linkages and the parking brake cable and linkage also. Needless to say, I have been using it without the floorboard in place, and when the floorboard goes back in, I am pretty sure it's going to be in two pieces instead of one.
If all I was doing was digging the trench I would use the compact. I need the bigger machine to do extensive grading around two different barns. There are other machines out there. Glenn This winter I will pull the floor board and powder coat them (if I get the tractor). At the beginning of this post I was looking for a way or place to look at the difference between models. I ha been to the Case site, but the 580B is not listed at all (too old). Glenn
I think you're on the right track now. You could always rent a trencher and look for another backhoe if need be. If you need to do a lot of levelling and landscaping a backhoe isn't the best machine. A skid steer might be a better option.
There is some digging that needs to be do as well, there is one barn that is built into the side of a hill that need the bank moved back another 10 feet.
Don't underestimate what a skid steer will do. Unless you have lots of digging to do with a backhoe, for grading and levelling a skid steer would do a better and faster job.
I do appreciate the suggestion, I think the best piece of equipment for me will be a backhoe. Thanks Glenn
So how did it go at the dealer?
It is still not bone, well it is sort of done, taking it as is, waiting for the delivery right now! The boxes are in the new home and we are living out of the boxes. Yes we have moved! The computer has been plugged back in
So...it is here. I have I thought it approperate to start a new thread, on the Case 580B, the repairs I do to it , and the projects I use it for HeavyEquipmentForums The first post has been made and it contains PICTURES!