I am still shopping for a larger scraper for an excavation next year. We will move about 20,000yds approx 300-500ft. I originally was looking only at elevating scrapers (623, 633), but have a couple prospective 627s to look at. This machine must run solo without a pusher and I would prefer without ripping since I do not have a ripper on the D7. The soil is easy sandy loam for the first 2ft and transition to gray clays with some shale but nothing that would be difficult for a scraper. We will cut a 10-12ft pond and use that fill for other uses.
For that short of a haul I would hook pans behind Cats. No push Cat needed there either. D8H or K with a 20 cu yd pan will move a bunch of material in a day with that short of a haul.
For solo the elevator would appear to be better even though it's more complex mechanically than an open bowl scraper. Thing is that if an open bowl machine hits a hard spot it may simply grind to a halt even though it has 4-wheel drive. That'll be the last thing you need even though you sound like you have a fairly good handle on the exact types of material you will be moving. As suggested above don't discount the good old-fashioned towed scraper and tractor, provided that you already have a suitable tractor to pull it that is.
Yair . . . fastline . As Greg and Nige have mentioned if you already have a D7 I can't imagine why you would want the extra complexity of a eggbeater or a twin pack. Depending on the shape of the hole once you get down a bit the eggbeater could be struggling to load in a single pass across the floor particularly if you get a shower or hit a bit of moisture . . . it would probably be history on clay batters if it got a little wet. With the exception of say those little twin powered Michigan elevators I think scrapers are a pain in the azz for digging small holes, they might take the top off fine but that last third down to grade not so much. Cheers.
I will add a bit to the story but I think we discussed here a while back. Still trying to make a decision on it. This is a large (40acre) property and I am creating privacy berms around the edges and other places. I will cut at least 2 ponds for my fill dirt. Everywhere I want a berm, I will cut the top soil at least 1ft and lay it back to be reapplied on the berms. the property is an exact 1/4mi x 1/4mi and I will try to put ponds more in the middle. There is really no need for ultimate compaction on the berms as long as I account for it in size when I shape it. I believe we discussed using my D7E before. I can buy a cheaper scraper for what a pull pan costs for that dozer and I do not have a cable rig or hydro ports on the D7 so I would need to figure that out. No bigger there but I do question the speed and wear on the dozer. She is the 160HP version. Runs great and I would love to side step the scraper but it just seems that being able to move 20yds at a time is the only smart way to do this. I might try with a 613 if I found one for a bargain but I would be there for weeks. I really wanted a 633 and tried 3-4x to buy one but they just want to much for questionable birds. I like to stay close to scrap price so if/when something blows, I am not out my life savings. The D7 is not going to blow. I also have a Cat 225 that can move dirt efficiently but then I need at least two ADTs to stay up with it and a scraper will move more mass per hour compared to the 225. I realize I will still need the 7 and 225 in the hole for shaping but since I am running solo, I need to be efficient with my time. I am not one of those that will drag this out for 6yrs nibbling with a skid steer. I watched my dad try to do his own 1/4a pond with a 580 Case when I was a kid. NO!!! Even my 225 would have done that in a day....
Good question fastline? I work alone mostly and like an elevating scraper moving dirt beyond what a dozer likes not to mention even on short hauls it saves were & tear on the dozer undercarrige. Still run a Wabco C pull, never have had to push it to get loaded. Loads 22 yards in about 45 seconds to a minute. The key to loading is at the cutting edge. I use 6 teeth on mine and it works great.No need for ripping with the teeth. As others have said they aint a mud machine and rain will shut you down. But for what they are they do a good job and are an asset to any small operator . In this thread on post #12 we were cutting in a keyway for a lake with the scraper HeavyEquipmentForums If I was looking for a scraper I would probably go with a 613, 615, or 623 Cat elevating scraper today.
Yair . . . Gotcha fastline (laughing) You blokes certainly think different but I can see why . . . I note 1980 633's on one web site for under fifty grand. As you say, such a beast could be a minefield if anything blows. Sorry, just can't get my head around the notion of putting money into a major item of equipment for just a twenty thousand cube job. td25c is spot on with the tooth thing. On the Johnstone 21's we used to run with four teeth on what I think you blokes call a "frost blade" . . . the centre section of the cutting edge projects lower than the sides. Cheers.
I offered 10K for a 633 and the guy decided to roll the dice at auction and got 9500 after he fixed several things. I warned him that is the market here for 633s. No one uses them. Most around here are running ag tractors with open bowls. Just smoother and more efficient. My ag tractor has duals but only 130HP and probably won't handle the abuse. Probably a fair bet that even 613 would out work my ag tractor.
You will throw rocks at a paddle wheel scraper after you run a twin engine scraper for a while, especially in good dirt like you're describing. You wouldn't have any trouble coming out of any cut with it either. If you run a 627 with the center cutting edge lower than the outers, it'll load itself in good dirt in as little as 20 seconds. Terex TS 14B's had a good reputation too, but I've always had Cats.
Yair . . . fastline . As I mentioned it's hard for me to envisage a running workable 633 for ten grand . . . as you alluded at such dollars it could make a lot of money but would have the potential to provide high levels of anxiety. It has been interesting the way things have gone with shift to ag tractors and scrapers. Apparently there is an outfit trialling a twenty five yard elevator made to go behind ag tractors or ADT's. The unit has its own engine to drive the hydraulics for dump and the paddles are driven mechanically through a torque converter. The plan is to move the same amount of dirt with less horse-power and extend drivetrain life on the prime mover . . . the engine on the unit only runs while loading, there is some sort of accumulator to store the hydraulic pressure for dump. Cheers.
I've owned them all it seems like, 613 615 623 627 ts-14 Steiger and pans, magnum and pans, and paddles, My personal favorite is a ts-14B or newer they're cheap as hell, you can buy 2 or 3 for the price of one 627 and they use very universal parts ie detroits and Allison's etc. they will burn 75% of the fuel of a 627 but production is a little less but IMO the fuel consumption alone more than compensates for it but they are a lot more powerful if they are updated to a turbo or a 6-71 we do a lot of bottom ground work and they will get around as good as a artic with 17yd pan. I have since sold them all and only have one 615C II left and we rarely use it, I've had it for years and it's only got 3200hrs on it. But it's a nice machine and I really enjoy running it ....... As much as anyone can enjoy running a scraper lol. The most comfy one to run is a nice tractor and tow pans but at the end of the day the motor scraper will have higher production in EVERY case that I have ever had multi machines on one job, Oh and btw, don't let anyone tell you that a paddle can't be pushed we do it all the time just gotta have 2 operators working in sync as in any push operation. Don't underestimate a 615, they're a lot more productive than a 613 and trust me you'll get tired of a 613 and wish you had a bigger rig with 20k yd at 1/2mi trips. Not sure if it's true or not but I heard that towpans are rated at 125% cap and motor scrapers are rated at struck cap ? I'm not sure where your at but I'm around KC area and if you don't find a machine by the time the job comes up I might rent you my 615 Pj
You`ll push that self loader untill that sliding floor rolls under the bowl and really makes a mess, ask me how I know. The 613 was never intended for production, just light clean up of little windrows or such. The push-pull set up makes a big difference in production. You`re right about the TS14, they are as complicated as a rock and do a decdent job for the price.
Well I didn't mean push it with a DD9 :tong lol we just use a finish dozer whenever we push them it's just mainly to help out in a low traction situation Pj
To the OP it looks like purplewave has a 623 coming up https://www.purplewave.com/cgi-bin/mnlist.cgi?131206/H4149
"Stinger" is the term A dropped centre cutting edge combination, from what I know of them, is referred to a "stinger". Makes any scraper more productive in a bulk dirt operation
Yair . . . Gotcha bigrus . Stinger it is, makes sense. Cheers.
Get an open bowl and top load it when the going gets tough, I'd follow some of the advice here and go look for an old terex twin. As for doing it in a timely fashion, I'd think mother nature will determine how that goes. You already have the high priced items to get the job done, with a dozer and excavator you just need something to move the dirt with, even a single engine scraper would do that, I'd still go for an open bowl over an elevator version.
called the same in this part of the world bigrus,kerry
I would use a 627,if available, I like 637's myself ,but far too big & expensive for your described work. A 627 ,can move 3-5 times as much dirt as a pull-type(in my opinion) , but have extra fuel & operator costs.** 2 older 627's in my area are $14k each , but are early B model's.
I don't think I am much considering a pull scraper. Just trying to compare elevating to open bowl twins. Seems kind of mixed here. I don't like the complication of the elevating but seems they might be less cranky about conditions? How about a straight comparison of a 623 and 627? Both are about the right size for this job. I guess the 623 does have one less engine to worry about.
Caterpillar performance Handbook might give some insight on 623 & 627 . Never was around a twin engine elevating scraper but would think it would out perform both on a one man operation. I think Wabco & International were the only brands that offerd them. Wabco 333 www.classicmachinery.net/forum/viewtopic.php?=49&t=8695 IH 444 www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=5636951
Yair . . . td25c . Michigan offered one for a while. It had a 4-71 front and back worked well the few shifts I did. Cheers. * P. S. There ya go per the miracle of Google . . . http://www.contrafedpublishing.co.nz/Contractor/2009/May+2009/The+Clark-Michigan+110HT.html
Cat made a twin engine elevator, the 639 series. Pretty rare.
Cool! Thanks for the info Scrub & d9gdon. Found a link on the cat 639 http://safety.cat.com/cda/files/2453370/7/SEBU5682-00 B.pdf I realy like the looks of the Clark/Michigan 110 Scrub. I would think a setup like that would work great for a one man dirt moving operation. Wounder if any company offers a unit like that today?
I say a good old TS-14. you can always top load if needed. they are cheap to buy and parts are easy to come buy at fare prices.
Were it me I would look at renting a 627 before I would consider buying anything less than a 50 to 60 grand scraper. Yes, the rental rate is high, but one major breakdown will cost so much more than the rental rate for a small job like that, especially considering downtime, that the cost/benefit analasis of the equation is a no brainer to me. I would rather price a job using rental rates and have a much better handle on cost. You may not make as much, but you eliminate a lot of risk. I would much prefer the 627 to the 623 for production, and if it gets a bit slick or soft you can keep going (to a point) with the 627.
Dry hire would be a preferable route to go. Again if you have a mechanical malfunction ointhead Also once the job is over, you don't have the albatross hanging around. I found a local bloke who was more than happy to hire his equipment to me for the last 3 months, great result, he earned some money, the farmer had his levee bank built and I kept the opposition off my site and out of the equation
Clean scraper, looks well maintained. Scroll to bottom you can see all their equipment.
One advantage with elevated scrapers is the dirt comes out nicer to grade with, but I think an open bowl and your D-7 would be faster in the long run.
I ran TS14B with D8's with 435 and 463 boxes.It was a great machine that was big enough to move muck and small enough to push with a D6 if needed.No problem with lowloaders and parts availability.pretty fuel efficient.I regretted selling it for many years as I often had 'just the right job' for it,but was given pretty strong money for it.It went over to North Caroliner from England.These days it would have almost no value here in the UK no matter how good it was. It was considerably more easy to pushload than a Cat 627 although the Cat would shift more,was more durable and held much better resale value. Only ever knew one contractor here in the UK that ran a big fleet of Cat 623's,B's and E's and that was E.W.Ambrose of Chesterfield.They retired and sold out to UK based Ruttle Plant Hire who shipped them to their Canadian Depot.
One of the TS14B's in the mid 1990's
C-Pull 222 with hancock scraper vs TS-14 the C-pull will outperform. I the past with both type of machines on the same job the Wabco hauled 3 loads to 2 loads hauling 1/2 mile building a 40 acre lake. The C-pull had the extended stinger as shown in Wabco scrapers at work post #852 The only thing you have to worry about is solid rock. Goes right through hardpan, flint, I even seen it shave off sand stone. So when it comes to a solo machine, self elevating Wabco 222 is it. (not that I'm partial or any thing)