I know it seems many are against a 200 on a tag, but i've been doing it behind tandem dump and find it pulls great, and no problems whatsoever. But I need to buy my own truck, and I am wondering how many have done it with a single axle? The hoe and trailer weight about 62,000lbs, I would need about 9,000lbs pin weight to be legal on trailer axles. However, that is with bucket on hoe, and extra bucket too, if I had to i'd be open to putting both buckets on deck of truck which would save about 4500lbs. The reason I want a single axle is to get around more places, and also use it to pull my mini ex and a skidsteer I will be buying on a 20 ton tag. I know I would need a big motor, heavy axles, etc to make the truck heavy. It will be a bit of a unicorn to find, but there is some 500+hp with 10 speeds in daycab tractors, and hopefully get 14 or 16 front with 23 rear. Ideally want a big longer wheelbase to make sure steers don't get light. From what i've found, the truck as a tractor would weight a little over 13,000lbs and by the time I put a deck, slip tank, hitch, etc I am guessing it would be up to about 16,500lbs. The tandem dump I pull it with now is pretty much right on 20,000lbs, it's a light international, only 330hp with allison. Front end doesn't get light at all, and I believe empty it's about 8500 front 11500 rears. So the single axle would actually be heavier in the front end by a bit. For simplicity, if the single axle had the same weight on front axle, and say rear was 3500lbs less, and the same wheelbase would it not be about the same as far as steer axle is concerned? What about if buckets were on deck, and the single axle actually weighted more then the dump? I can still borrow the tandem dump for any out of town jobs, it will simply be moving it in the city, maybe 15 times a year. I just need a way to move it myself as the dump is too busy in the summer otherwise. I wouldn't consider it if I was going to be moving it on the highway, but it will never see that as my yard is right on the edge of the city so I don't need to ever go over 45 MPH with it. The reason i'm not looking at a tandem dump is the cost, for any sort of decent truck i'm looking at $50k and even that doesn't buy much. Meanwhile I can get a really nice single axle for $20-30k. I'm not worried about the weight behind the truck, there's enough single axles grossing over 100,000lbs all the time on the highway and it wouldn't be done if they didn't do fine. It's the pin weight of the pintle i'm concerned about how it will handle with one less axle on the truck.
Don't do it. I pulled a 25 ton tag with a tandem, hauling a 25 ton hoe for almost 10 years. You never really feel comfortable, and I would guess a single would be worse. JMHO.
I am shocked by that. Like I said i've pulled it with tandem dump numerous times and it pulls like a dream, I feel as comfortable as hauling my old 25 ton on a stepdeck. Maybe trailer, etc makes a difference? It's a triple axle with 17.5" tires so the weight being lower helps. But it pulls like a dream, even at 60 mph.
I guess "comfort" is relative to what you're used to. I thought it was fine too until I got older and drove a semi for the first time. An RGN on a fifth wheel loaded to 90,000 vs. a tag on a hook is no different than a the gooseneck vs. bumper pull behind a pickup argument, there really is no comparison. I told myself I wasn't even going to mention the word safety, because they're both "safe", but I would much rather be in a "situation" with a tandem on the front instead of a single axle.
I hear you there. I pulled my 6 ton mini ex with my pickup for the first time with a bumper pull, and when I bought my gooseneck it was a big difference, the gooseneck pulls so much easier, but both did feel safe. I wouldn't consider it if it wasn't safe. Or if I was going to be pulling it everyday, but for maybe 600-800 miles a year only in the city, and maybe only for a year it's a different story. It would see more use pulling my mini ex, and skidsteer but pulling maybe 30,000lbs I know is no issue. If business keeps getting busier, I would be adding a tandem dump of my own next year. But with needing truck, and skidsteer purchase this year, that's all I want to finance right now.
I guess I don't see that in my area. If you wanted me to load up and take off with 62,000 on a trailer behind a single axle day cab, pintle hitch, I'd probably not be very interested. Way more weight on the trailer, and not much on the truck is no fun at all. The tandem dump, that you pull it now with, that weighs 20,000 actually helps you, and more rubber on the ground is better. If your looking at longer wheel base anyways, why not tandem? If you have to make excuses that you're not doing it very often, then you shouldn't probably be doing it at all. If your in a flat area (I'm not), yes, you could get it moving, but what happens when somebody pulls out in front of you? Local guy here has a similar trailer set up, pulling with a tandem dump, and lost a telehandler forklift, a couple years ago because of this. Single axle tractor and your skid or mini would be fine, but I don't think I'd be up for the big excavator.
It's flat here, there's a few hills to go around the river in the city, but nothing of concern. The 330hp 6 speed auto does fine and that's not much power for the weight. You see guys pulling 200's behind tandem dump trucks all the time here, and single axle tractors pulling heavy fifth wheels. There is some big transport companies here pulling 3 single axle trailers behind single axle daycab tractors, no idea if they are using the full capacity, but the units could be grossing at 132,000lbs with 7 axles. A tandem won't turn nearly as short, and would be such a pain for using other then the 200. For now, I would use the truck entirely for my work truck, so many days no trailer at all, don't want to be driving around the city in a tandem when I don't need it. To get in some places with my 3500 pulling a 30' gooseneck is tough, I can't have a setup any longer. As far as stopping, it's like anything else the trailer needs to be capable of stopping itself, and it is. In fact, I would bet with a real jake on a 500hp tractor with a 10 speed the single axle would have more stopping power then the dump i'm pulling it with now. I mean if you're grossing 140,000lbs and the trailer can't stop itself you're in a world of trouble, any loaded truck and trailer is if the trailer cannot stop itself. Without knowing the fully story no idea where the fault is, could easily be the driver not securing load properly, overloaded, too fast, etc etc. Unless the entire unit rolled or went off the road, how could loosing the load be the fault of the single axle? If he couldn't stop and swerved and lost it, 100% on the driver and shouldn't be driving a heavy truck when you don't know what you're doing. Well I was thinking more of pulling it on the highway if it's icy, the longer heavier truck would be more ideal.
62,000 trailer and load will throw a single axle truck around like a rag doll. It's not about stopping power or anything else. It's weight proportions and leverage afforded the trailer by the method of attachment. A single axle pulling a 5th wheel is an entirely different scenario so don't let that make you think it's safe. It's not. It's not about what happens 99% of the time. It's that 1% when something unforeseen and completely out of your control happens. You have a panic stop, evasive maneuver etc. There is zero room for error. I'm getting a slight sense of "it won't happen to me" or "they don't understand what I do or where I do it". I assure you all of us do. If you can't get a rig in there to work then what could be done that you'd need a hoe that big. Anywhere you can get a pickup and 30' I can get a tandem dump and pintle hitch. Your reasoning sounds like a person that hasn't driven a lot of miles in a heavy truck or had a couple serious "oh ****" moments. Take our advice and do what's safe. I don't think you want to live with yourself if you had a wreck and killed somebody or left them permanently injured. Heaven forbid that happens but IF it did you'd lose EVERYTHING you own. I don't care how good your insurance is. They'll look at a rig like that and ride the phrase "gross negligence" all the way to the bank.
one of my trucks is a single axle i have hauled a 33,000 lbs hoe with it on a 25 ton lowboy my gross weight was 62500 lbs its all legal and its safe but to stop that load takes way more effort than it does in my truck with tandems. i could legally get up to 70000 with that set up but i wont do it especially driving in the city like junkyard said in that 1 moment it will eat your lunch. Junkyard is also right about putting a tandem with a tag anywhere your pickup and goosneck goes i cant take a 265 inch wheel base truck with a 40 foot trailer into subdivisions that other guys cant make it into with a pickup and gooseneck because they dont know how to drive
Not when it weighs 7,000 lbs less and all the weight is on the back bumper with a pintle, vs the dump having the bed and the extra set of tandems on the ground. Hp won't help it stop. When you light off the jake, the braking effort is only on the driveline, and on a single axle that's not very much rubber on the ground. It would skip that single axle around because there's just not enough weight on it. With the single axle light truck and pintle, you're going to have a lot of trouble also with your steer axle weight. Sure the trailer might be able to stop itself, but can you keep it headed the direction you want to go? Generally what everyone else is doing (hauling the 200 on a tag behind a tandem dump) is the bare minimum. If there was a way to get by with less truck or trailer, that's what everyone else would be doing also. I'm not above trying to save $, or thinking outside the box, but I don't think your going to find a bunch of people here who say "that sounds like a great idea, why didn't I think of that!" Because its not a good idea. Part of the reason I enjoy reading here so much, is because there's such a wealth of knowledge, so many of these guys have been there and done that, and have all the scars to prove it. And there's always people who will ask for advice, and cheerfully go on their merry way and do what they want anyway. Good luck.
I had a S/A dump that was originally a tractor that pulled Oregon triples, so plenty of everything- power, brakes, CGWR. I'd use it because it was easier to get into places than the 3 axle pulling a tag. Until I had an emergency stop situation- that short wheelbase was a handful to get whoa'd up & after that bigger stuff always went behind the Pete. So I'm going to be a " can be done, but not me " on the little Wiggle-Wagons.
I currently have a tandem dump with a 15 foot body and a set back front axle and can pretty much get into anywhere but the tightest driveway on a single lane rd with a 20 ton tag with a 21 foot flat deck and a 5 foot beaver plus the tongue and tows the trailer like a dream, I've towed a 160 size machine around with it a handful of times and would want nothing less than a tandem for that and I constantly tow a 33,000 lb machine behind it. Not sure why you'd try to do more with less, the tandem is so handy, especially when you want to always take "one more bucket" of material away from a job, a six wheeler fills up pretty quick and in the end is just better for running heavy with a trailer....
I appreciate the input everyone. A tandem dump with pintle of even a 25' trailer won't have a hope in hell getting into the areas I do with my pickup and gooseneck. It's not getting into the subdivisions, it's that I do mostly infill in older areas, and pull it down narrow alleys to avoid walking the mini excavator long distances, and even some of the front streets are tough. It's not for the 200, I won't even try to pull down an alley with it in tow. I guess it depends what you are, but with my old setup tandem tractor with sleeper, and 53' stepdeck, there was tons of corners I didn't have a hope in hell in making, and you need to be careful or you will be backing up a long long ways (or worse) because you cannot make a corner. When you have idiots parked everywhere, i've had to squeeze through areas were the flags on both sides of the hoe were touching vehicle mirrors. I'm not trying to brag, but I can assure you, if a truck and trailer can get in somewhere, I am more then capable of getting it there. Of course you have to consider the 1%, but at the same time you can only do so much. I would never drive a setup that isn't safe. But what some consider unsafe, many many others consider safe (and it is). For example how many consider a 200 on a pintle unsafe? I have never felt unsafe yet, even in terrible road conditions. Or my other setup, a 6 ton mini on a gooseneck behind a srw one ton? I am dumbfounded at that one that some consider that unsafe. So i'm not trying to be rude, but someone saying "it's unsafe" doesn't mean a lot to me unless it is backed up by concrete reasons. As far as legalities, a single axle pulling a 200 on a 25 ton tag would not have any issues, maybe it's different in the USA, but in Canada, you have nothing to worry about if you're legal, regardless if someone thinks it's not safe by looking at it. I'm curious what you mean by evasive maneuver? I don't care if i'm pulling a 200 with a single axle, or a tri-drive, I would not ever dream of swerving to avoid someone cutting me off if i'm going any speed, etc that's a death sentence in any semi. I guess people have different views, but unless a ditch is nearly flat, I would never purposely go into one to avoid a collision with a heavy piece of equipment in tow, or swerve at a high speed because you're going to go over or at least the load will. I know someone who swerved in a loaded tandem dump to avoid a car running a light, and ended up in the hospital very banged up because the truck rolled on it's side. Had he done the smart thing and stayed straight, probably wouldn't have a scratch. Hate to say it, but anytime i'm driving the semi if someone does something stupid my opinion is me before them, if I can avoid something without putting my safety in jeopardy, I will do so, otherwise nope. I've had close calls, and every single one has been someone else not paying attention and doing something stupid, getting cut off is the big one. Which is why all my vehicles have dash cams to protect myself. I understand that a pintle and 5th wheel is different the 5th wheel is more stable as far as sway, and taking weight off the steer axle instead of putting on is different. I know having a shorter wheelbase is a negative (although it could easily have the same wheelbase as a tandem). In reality, the only hard and fast difference is the 4 extra tires on the ground. It could be loaded with enough weight on the front of the deck to make sure the steers have proper weight, wheelbase the same, so it would leave the tires as the difference, I am aware that that is a significant difference however. I agree it is a step down from a tandem for sure and less traction for braking power if the road isn't dry, but what i'm getting at is, how good is a tandem for the setup? I completely disagree that the tandem dump is the absolute minimum, but don't know if the setup i'm considering is too far below what is safe. I really would like to find is more opinions from people who run a single axle pulling a heavy pintle, maybe even the setup i'm considering that would really help me decide. As I will not consider the combination unless I am 110% sure it is safe and will work.
I'm curious how much were you pulling with the single axle? You felt it was strictly the shorter wheelbase that made the difference? How much difference in wheelbase is your single axle compared to tandem?
The single axle would have a flatdeck, not a dump. I would still have access to the tandem dump I do now, it's just that it's my dads truck and I need a truck of my own to pull the hoe and trailer the majority, or better yet all the time. I can get a nice single axle for $20-30k, that will buy me a old worn out tandem dump I will be working on all the time which I have no interest in. To buy a tandem I would consider, I need to spend about $80k because it needs to be an auto with at least 400hp. If I go to a standard, it would primarily used to move the hoe, and i'd still be hiring out most of my hauling because I can't run the hoe and drive the truck. And the two people who drive for me now, mostly my mom and sometimes my dad cannot drive a stick (well my dad could, but he's way too hard on a standard, so won't consider it). Finding a decent driver is hard enough, finding one who can drive standard? Almost impossible. Can't even find decent laborers to run a $100 hand tool, never mind an expensive truck. So I can't buy a $50k standard tandem dump that will not see much use. So that's were i'm at. I did briefly consider a tandem daycab tractor that would be suitable to put a dump box on later, but it would still end up near the $80k mark, i'd just get a newer/lower mileage truck as it makes no sense to spend the same amount on the rig up, to rig up a old worn out truck.
Have you considered a short tandem day cab tractor with wet kit ? Pick up a good used single drop lowboy for moving equipment and a short dump trailer for hauling material . All these items are pretty common and not that big of a deal to swap trailers depending on the job . Just a thought .
315, so 36k-ish Yes. I haven't had those rigs for quite awhile now, around 60" (1.5m up north there?). Maybe more, that little IH S2375 was pretty short.
I have, I had that before. While a daycab would gain me a few feet shorter wheelbase, I had a 29' tandem end dump before and it just can't get into all sites. One site I dump concrete at a lot you won't get into, and many sites for hauling dirt too. The other issue is I just bought the tag and put over $6k into it, and the hassle of trying to sell, payout penalty on my financing, etc I just don't want to bother. Plus I really like the ease of loading the tilt deck. If I went with a single axle, I had considered searching for like a 25' end dump, as that would get in virtually anywhere. I am leaning towards buying the single axle, rig it all up with 40t pintle and give it a go pulling the 200. If it's fine awesome, if not just use it for my mini and skidsteer. I was looking and I can get a 2006-2010 with about 500,000 miles for $10k. Even if I still need another truck later for the 200, only spending $10k on a truck now isn't much to put out. I'm curious what do you guys think of a 330hp truck with a 6 speed Allison for pulling the 200 permanently in a tandem dump? As I can find those light ones for a half decent price. That's what i'm pulling it with now, I haven't pulled it yet since it got out of the shop, one turbo the wastegate wasn't opening properly and the EGR was sucking up like a gallon of coolant a day so I know the truck wasn't at full power, it was definitely working hard, especially on the small hills. I'm not as worried about it on this truck as it's nearly new with only 45,000 miles. But buying a bit older one with maybe 200,000 miles is different. I looked up the transmission and it says it's good for 36,300kgs. With the trailer and current dump i'm sitting at about 37,500kgs. But at the same time, a tractor would be loaded on the truck to 22500kg, where as the the dump would only be at about 14,000kg as it's pulling most of the weight so it should be easier on it. I've seen that hp and auto combo in some tandem highway tractors even. I just don't want to buy a truck and take the automatic out of it, the transmission did creep up close to 200f when I was pulling it on a hill, and that is in the winter, change the outside temperature from 0f to 80f and i'm sure the temperature would be quite a bit higher yet. I didn't get anywhere fast with it, but as long as it won't kill the truck it worked fine for me.
Sounds to me like your mind is made up. Don't let the experts fool you into something safer. Good luck and may your bad day never come.
I'm not sure where you're inferring that from, I mentioned I am still considering a tandem dump, and even if I go the single route, that I am fully expecting that it may not be capable of pulling the 200 and won't be used for doing so. I am not convinced it's safe, but i'm also not convinced that it's not safe, I am leaning towards the not safe side. But either way, I am gathering more information before I decide one way or another.
I don't do it often, twice a year. I haul behind/on a Chevy C65 27500 GVW truck on a 9 ton trailer a total of 30 800 LB concrete blocks, with a 1200 LB boat. My truck is powered by a 427 Gasoline engine. I'm weighing in around 42,000. The engine is at its capacity, Hills are overwhelming, up or down, but braking is adequate. I don't see tow ratings for 35000 pound trucks as I do for 13000 pound trucks. Do manufacturers rate trucks for trailer weight? I have been told 20 SAE tons is maximum legal load for tag along pintle tow. I don't know if that number is from DOT rules or other. A 200 series excavator is north of 20 metric tons, well over 20 SAE tons.
Do you really think this? We all are out there driving, and yes, I see people all the time on their cell phone and texting, and others just driving stupid. I can't stop that. But I'm not plowing someone just because they're stupid. And then having to tell some father the reason his wife and kids aren't coming home, is because his wife was distracted by the kids, but because I've got a dash cam video, I'm not at fault. We're out there traveling big, heavy and long, but I like to think that we're better at it than some of the other idiots behind the wheel. I'll dump my crane off the lowboy in the middle of the street, if I could save from nailing someone, because they aren't going to survive that. I would take the ditch, and we don't have much for ditches by me. According to you- your buddy that laid down a dump, should have just plowed the person, because he wouldn't have got hurt, the other person would have? I'm thinking your buddy is actually the good guy..... Please for everyone else out there- leave the driving to your mom. I guess I'm one of those with different views of things, that you spoke of. Most of the guys I've known and worked with, would do everything we could, so that we all get to go home at the end of the day. Not just looking out for myself, but everybody, and that means the other stupid people out there. Maybe I was just raised different.
And now that I've got that all off my chest- Sorry guys. I was thinking about this thread today (I evidently wasn't busy enough) and I've got the solution. It turns short, got a nice short wheel base, and will take all the power you can put to it. All the braking is on the trailer, so we don't have to worry about that. I got a little carried away with ours, so it needs a little frame work, but it will be good as new. I think we could trust him not to hurt himself or others. Willing to arrange shipping!
Wanna know why? Because people lie, I am currently fighting with liability of a idiot who ran into the side of me a few years ago trying to blame me, so you bet I got the camera to protect myself. If it comes down to only property compared to saving running into someone you bet, but hitting the ditch with a 200 hoe on the trailer for example, the driver of the truck might not make it out, especially with some of the steep ditches we have. I would not risk any maneuver that has a decent chance of killing me to save an idiot, nope not a chance. People who will swerve with a loaded tractor trailer regardless are the reckless ones, who may one day end up killing many many people even themselves. The guy who flipped the dump, is not the good guy, he did the wrong thing and is very lucky to be alive. I don't go out looking for an accident and also don't think "I have a camera I don't care", I will do whatever I can to avoid, even at risk to damage the truck, etc but not to risk my life. Not happening. I meant the camera is there so if I did have to avoid an idiot and damage my rig, I have proof so it's not my fault insurance wise. And that is important, because it can put a guy out of business if you write off all your equipment and are at fault, or can't prove you weren't. For the record, driving schools here even teach that, to be very aware of what you're driving and loaded with and that sometimes the only and best thing to do is try and stop, you're not driving a smart car and cannot do the same things if you want to go home that day. Loaded tractor trailers who go into steep ditches the odds are not good for the driver. You're welcome to do it your way, there's nothing wrong with wanting to take that big of risk for someone else, but i'm not willing to, and many others won't either and there's nothing wrong with it.
Here's my take on it. Obviously we're in a different position here with much lower axle load limits than it seems you have there, and pintle hooks are rarely used, but so far I see everyone in the thread saying it's a bad idea. Now to me, if you keep getting told by seasoned drivers - and heavy haul drivers at that - that your idea is unsafe, then to me it seems like it must be a bad idea, and to keep arguing otherwise is pretty damn arrogant. JMTCW
Crane Op, I wholeheartedly agree. His response to this post tells me a lot when he mentions driving school teaches this. I have a good friend who went to driving school, has a 4 page driving record, and didn't renew his CDL, because no one would hire or insure him. He tells me all the time that it shouldn't be held against him because they taught him to "never leave the pad" or swerve away from someone in a truck. I can't count the amount of times I have violently avoided someone. BTW, I have had a truck driver's license, (they didn't call it a CDL back then), for 32 years and have a clean record for 27.
Thank you for your example. Those of us who drive anything bigger than a Prius have a greater responsibility to do no harm. I'm not saying Prius drivers need not be careful, I am saying the potential for carnage is greater with big vehicles. CDL licensing addresses that fact. My 90 year old father in law was allowed to drive a car. He couldn't count his own fingers, but his driver's license was secure until a law enforcement officer personally witnessed a violation. I, on the other hand must pass a medical exam annually, and prove to the satisfaction of an examiner that I can tell green from red. I carry a greater responsibility.
I want that tractor, or sell him mine. I can't find a picture of mine. My son on his brother's M 5800 LBS, about 40 HP. M was introduced in 1939, was the biggest of the IH letter series row crop tractors.
OK! You guys got me thinking.... I have a 438 40hp (38hp) tractor and with a triangle on the back I would be exempt from normal hauling regs. SO...... do you know how I can rig a 50 ton low boy to it. I will only use it local around town. Also do you know if IH offer an overdrive or should I just get real big tires so I can do 45mph on interstate. Also if you think that I am crazy there is something wrong with your thinking.
Your pushing the limit with that tractor in front of a 50 ton lowboy . Now a G 1000 Minneapolis - Moline would be a different story .........
TD25, I was hoping to keep my fuel cost down.
How about steam then? Or go by the burger joint, get their grease. Strain it, add a little alcohol and boom ya got biodiesel.
JY, I was hoping you would help fab up my hook-up....but NO you just make a joke..... OR will that really work? BTW I just got a new to me waist oil burnner, it's a V871!
Haha the ole Detroits will run on just about anything! That's actually a overly simple explanation of the process to use cooking oil as fuel. We can fab up whatever you need. A good tandem axle dolly and some sort of air compressor for brakes. Maybe a hand valve to run them.....?
You can only haul your own agricultural loads or move your own agricultural equipment to be legal. And remember you can not exceed 25 MPH even downhill with your slow moving vehicle sign. A friends brother got a speeding citation from a cop he was often at odds with a few years ago driving his new tractor on the road.
OIH, If I hitch an old hag on the front of the tractor will I get away with it. JY, You aren't scared of **** are you? I was just going to cage the brakes but that's a great idea to rig up a compressor. I did drain oil from my screaming greeny into the fuel tank.
Nothin scares me but mom and the wife!
LOL ! To play " devils advocate " ......... When I started working in the truck shop there wrecker was a 1968 IH single axil home made rig . Pretty tough built & reliable . Long wheel base , 23,000 two speed air shift rear axil , 270 cummins engine with 10 speed & Tulsa 100 winch behind the cab . We drug everything in with that truck . Later set up a tandem Kenworth with a 750 Holmes bed ..... Man what a change ! Aint nothing ya caint do with a 750 ! Haul everything with it . http://www.heavytruckforums.com/showthread.php?263-Some-Holmes-750-action&p=2462&viewfull=1#post2462 Still miss running the old IH single axil at times .
While I get what your saying, I'm not taking the ditch to save someone else. One of my friends cousins had a drunk driver come into his lane and he took the ditch to keep from pancaking the dude. He ate a power pole for his trouble and was dead before the D9 broke loose. It was 11am. He was younger than i am now, and I went to his funeral.
I hate to be the first, and I can't even believe I'm going to rip the bandage off this, but here goes. I believe this ridiculous notion of "maintain your lane no matter what" has been propagated by the giant super carriers strictly from a liability standpoint. It's a largely defendable position, easily teachable, and leaves little room for question by newbie drivers. As an added bonus, the new steering wheel holders can get a confidence boost from the idea that no matter the situation, if they stay in their lane, they can get away with running over pretty much anybody in a situation that would normally require an evasive maneuver. It's total horse**it.
Absolutely. Couldn't agree more!
Auto trans, speed limiter, lane departure warning, auto braking, driver facing camera, rollover protection system, GPS routing, ELD, continuous monitoring to the mother ship with parameter triggers....what do you really need to know to drive a truck for a mega? I don't think those CDL mills produce drivers that, even though they meet the CDL requirements, can operate safely in the 'real world'.
Drive " Defensively " . Try my best to avoid the collision if possible . Had a refresher coarse last week ...... Some Lame Ass in a car decided to pass me on a double yellow with oncoming traffic ...... Both lanes went to the shoulder out of training & instinct .... And the goof ball passed between us unscathed .. I understand everyone is in a hurry , I get that ... For the cats & chicks driving wild on the road .............. Get the hell off the road & drive over on the shoulder or off in the side grass as that's all you paid for ! Truckers pay for there lane on the pavement out of pocket ....
If you have 4 pages of driving infractions you shouldn't be driving a smart car, let alone anything else because you have no idea how to drive. There is clearly more to it then that. In nearly 10 years, I have zero infractions related to commercial driving. I run my own business to haul my equipment only and will never work for someone again. But I can assure you if I sent out 10 resumes for trucking jobs in areas I have experience in, I would get 10 job offers. I never took driving school, this is from talking to instructors, etc when I was taking my test, and from what my mom was told more recently what she took drivers training and got her license. She was told that there, and further instilled after from me about driving. Again it depends if you're loaded, what you're hauling, road conditions, etc. If you don't drive in areas with snow and ice, you don't have a clue about what drivers do in those areas, it's like learning to drive all over again.
And that is exactly what i'm talking about. Why the hell should someone risk their life to save an idiot when the idiot made the mistake? I bet they wouldn't do the same for you. Everyone has a family. I'd rather be alive then right, or a "good guy". It's no excuse to say "Oh they just looked at their phone for a second" etc etc. Driving is dangerous, take it seriously, if you don't there is consequences.
Well some points make sense, it is easier for newer drivers to get right. But of course it's liability. What happens if a camera fails, no witnesses and a driver takes the ditch to avoid an accident, writes off the truck, trailer, and say some cargo that is worth a decent bit, not factoring in them potentially dying or getting hurt (add in possible lawsuit against company for that). They could easily ruin $500k of stuff, and the company is on the hook for it, hell how many times could the amount be over a million dollars? Why should any company want that risk? Most idiots in their cars aren't worried about getting run over anyway. How often do they cut off semi's and either believe they can stop as fast as them, or that getting run over wouldn't be too bad. The stupidity of most people knows no bounds, and I for one will not risk my life for them. The only and most important thing to the safety of cars on the road is education towards semis and making people realize how long it takes them to stop, etc. Not that it would do much good.
First of all, do you personally know anyone here or their qualifications? I know I don't. Unless I KNOW someone is experienced in what they are talking about, their opinion doesn't hold much weight unless I can verify it, or they can explain in detail why they know what they are talking about. And unless they have personally done a somewhat similar combination, how do you believe they have any experience on the matter or know anything about? Someone could be a great driver, tons of knowledge, but if they've only pulled a flatdeck for 30 years down the highway, their knowledge on pulling a pintle equipment trailer is going to be zero. Secondly, many of the things I see on this site people claiming are not safe, are completely safe, and seasoned drivers I know personally agree on that, and you see it all the time here without any problems, and DOT's also have no issues with it. So if someone here is saying "it's not safe" towards something I know is, their opinion on saying something else isn't safe doesn't hold much weight (unless it is backed up). There is I believe ONE post pointing to a reason why this combination may not be safe, the rest of the reasons why are either wrong, or just assumptions on many things that are not factors. BTW here pintles are used all the time, pulling loads over 40,000kg, and heavy hauls over 100,000kgs even.
With the rite truck in front of this trailer I would not worry one bit . https://www.globetrailers.com/30-ton-tag-a-long-2/ Talk of the single axil dump pulling the 20 ton hoe is what threw allot of folks for a loop . Hook hitches are handy for dump truck trailer combo's hauling a digger behind them on the trailer . They aint my favorite style due to most of the load is on the tag trailer but in some cases they work fine . It aint all about how heavy the load is ..... Most of it is where you are going with it . Please pardon some of us old cat's ... We was doin this before the internet was invented...... Or building the internet ..... LOL ! 175 Allis on a cell tower job so people could rap on the net late at night .... LOL ! Man I tell ya what ... It takes allot a diggin , lifting , Concrete & rebar to get everyone to where they can communicate on HEF !
Here's my take on it after pulling pintles for around 40 years. Get the pintle as close to the rear axle as possible. It's all about leverage. I pull large loads with a triple axle pintle behind a tandem dump. The truck now is a 14 foot bed but enough room for 15 foot dump bed. the pintle plate goes between the bolts on the rear spring hanger, close as I could get it the the brake chambers. N14 cummins with 9 speed. Pulls great. Last truck I had would barely clear a 13 foot bed with a m11 and 7 speed. Trailer was a tandem axle. 963 at around 42,000 made for a bad ride. If you pulled it up where it needed to be the front was light. A light single axle truck is going to be hard to balance a big load right on a tandem axle pintle.
I have enough arguing and debates at home with three teenage daughters. Sure as heck don't need it here. You asked for advice. You can gracefully accept it and do what you please. No need to argue each and every point we make. Take it for what's it worth and go on. One of these days you'll post and really need our help. How far do you think you'll get after this thread? Furthermore, how do WE know if you have the slightest clue as to what you're doing? That **** works both ways. Junkyard out! (Mic drop)
Have welded the mounting plates for six bolt pintles to truck frames to setting up the hitches and the jaw control air to keep the hitch from slamming since 1978. We did not situate them all that close to the third members was unnecessary and hard to work around. Truck is short WB it is NOT a recommend to set a 20 ton load behind it, a Long WB single axle dump with nose weight is a good candidate as with a short WB you get nose lift, control of steering on grade gets dicey, panic stops become jackknifes as you cannot correct fast enough. There is a reason yard mules only carry a four bolt pintle, not rated for that kind of load and why tandem dumps are equipped with them, ballast and balance. Pintle plates need to be located and plated to the corners of the frame, back braced into the frame for stability, welding inside the frame or notching to get inside the spring hangers just moved the weight distribution OFF the spring hanger. There is a reason for not doing that, is based on bridge booms and cranes, move the load/balance point off the tip down onto the boom and the boom folds up, same holds true for frames.
Great points about hitch mounting , geometry ,wheelbase & load position on the trailer DMiller & gwhammy ! Have 4 hitch points on the back of the KW . Pintle , fifth wheel, gooseneck ball behind the fifth wheel & sling . Use them all but for heavy tongue weights I like the fifth wheel hitch the best .
Don't think you trailer pile is tall enough yet td!! What you doing with the frameless dump to have it blocked that way?
We were removing the dump cylinder . Truck driver went to let the bed down and it locked up on the first stage .
Turning on a gravel off a highway and sliding the front tires the first time is a eye opening experience. I would really like to have a heavier trailer but probably going to a lowboy next. Pintles are real handy with a dump truck in my business but a couple of my machines are marginal on a pintle hitch trailer.
May I ask a stupid question? What is a frameless dump?
A frame dump trailer is basically a dump truck without the cab/engine/steer axle, the front sits on the fifth wheel of a tractor. A frameless dump has a much lighter subframe that pivots at about the halfway point of the box. The cylinder pushes up on the front of the box, and it lifts off the subframe while hingeing at the pivot. When you're fully raised, the front trailer axle is off the ground.
I was always told there's two kinds of frameless dumps, those that have gone over, and those that are going to go over.
WOW! I need to get out more! In my corner of the country there ain't no such thing. Never seen even a picture! If that thing ever comes to VT they'll put it in a museum. For real, they make such a thing??? Evidently flat lands aren't a myth. Thanks for not poking fun. Willie
Frameless started many years ago, think I saw my first around 80 or 81, were not popular as did/do have a tendency to tip like a sleeping cow. First frameless were steel, I believe the first aluminum units came about mid 80's.
Most likely rolled a packing in the first stage. Got many hours on it?
As far as scooting the front tires in a turn, consider that a warning shot across the bow. You probably NEED to get into a longer WB SA with more nose weight, get into a full tractor trailer, get a generally heavier tandem or have a real bad day coming. I used to ignore or discount those little warnings, I WON'T anymore as been bit a few too many times by Fate.
Nothing in VT is ever level. I'd bet that contributes to these things being uncommon. The instability sort of announces itself.
The unit I pull has a bubble gauge on the nose and one on the truck dash, not high tech but was told 5 degrees off level and the load bridges, you're toast if send it up too far too fast.
Someone has to help me out here, I'm missing something, a 20 ton hoe on a tandem tag trailer behind a single axle truck......................in the United States of America..................just where can anyone scale that legally with any bridge law anywhere. Your arguing over whether or not it can be done, maybe argue if its even legal to do, because its not in my state, not even close to being legal. To haul that hoe in my state, I'd need a triple axle tag and tandem truck at the least, due to the short wheelbase, I'd have to do some reading, but it might even need a tag axle on the tandem truck along with the tri axle trailer with the short wheelbase to be legal. Does your state allow you 20k per axle with an oversized permit even if the length between axle groups is short, like on a tag and dump truck scenario??
It can be done and bridge it out like you say tho your maxed on weight but you would not do it with a standard day cab single used for local deliveries it's about 3 foot to short at least
A 200 sized hoe weights about 45,000 lbs,, add on the truck and trailer weight and tell me how it could ever be done on four axles and then get that weight on those axles with a tag and pintle hitch. I'm really curious as to how this is done. I have to have read it wrong and the hoe weights 20,000 lbs total not a 200 sized machine.
I meant in reference to a 35 ton triple axle tag couldn't be done on a 20 ton no matter what truck you pulled it with
You'd be right on the edge of legality. Figure 25,000 for a single axle dump and 20 ton tag. 34,000 on the trailer tandems, 20,000 on the drive axle, 12,000 on the steer. That's 66,000 gross, 41,000 payload. So, if the machine is really 20 tons and not a feather more, you could do it. You'd have to get it positioned just right. It would have to be really flat and the truck would want more power than any single axle dump I ever drove.
I'm not sure where anyone got a tandem tag from. It is a triple axle tag, that can carry 24,000kg on the trailer axles legally. I scaled it and what I got was 26,000kg on the trailer, and 4,000kg on the truck. Loading the hoe a bit further forward to put more weight on the truck to make the trailer axles legal. I was actually quite surprised how much weight the trailer takes off the front end of the truck, cannot feel it and the unit pulls very smooth though. I've decided to buy a daycab tractor and put a box on it and go with the tandem dump route. I can get a pretty nice truck rigged up for about 40k vs a old worn out tandem dump for that price. The tandem will come in handy, and I will feel more comfortable pulling it, as the trailer is actually weighting about 30,000kg depending what I have for attachments and mud on the machine.
Just out of curiosity. There are a couple of companies around here that must have 40 or 50 of those frameless dumps. I was always under the impression they were more stable than the framed ones. I personally have never hauled either. I just fix'em after they roll them over. Me being the village idiot and all.
Frame style dump relies on the stability of that frame for the pivot point and mast support, a frameless rises taking the forward axle with it teetering on the rear most suspension and the flimsy sub frame at center pivot with the mast being more of a support than a lifting device, ALL suspension air rides are dumped prior to lifting so are setting on the stop blocks. As a frameless goes up the rear wheels are locked, the cab parking brake MUST be released so the cab can travel rearward as the mechanism bends in the middle as the lift occurs, anything happens to the truck or the trailer and over they go.
Full frame end dumps are the most stable of any of them, next is quarter frames for stability and least stable are frameless units when dumping. What gets most end dumps is when some material hangs up on one side of the box when dumping and the frameless units can't handle those stress's and over they go, the full frame units can usually handle those types of stress's and are somewhat harder to lay over, not that it can't be done, but will take some more effort on the drivers part to cause full frames to lay over. Also the longer the trailer, the easier they lay over.
I have straightened and repaired several framed trailers over the years but never a frameless. Maybe they just haul them to the junkyard when they go over. Was just always under the impression they were more stable.
One difference is where the different trailers are used for. The framed tend to be more off road hauling clay, concrete, etc anything and dumping in uneven ground. Where the frameless tend to stick to asphalt hauling sand, gravel, etc where it would be virtually impossible to make it go over. I've only pulled a framed 29', but it was very stable never any problems dumping in sketchy places. But it's a different beast then a tandem and you need to dump accordingly.
Of the frameless trailers that I've seen that went over, they are pretty well totaled. The cylinder was beyond repair since the truck stayed upright and only the trailers went over, the support frames were had, one side of the trailer was gone and needed a complete replacement and the whole thing twisted like a pretzel. There was a fad years back, maybe 25 years ago now, where those long frameless trailers were bought to haul corn gluten, distiller grain, cotton seed and a host of other things that never should have been loaded on any frameless trailer to begin with, most trailers never made it very many loads before going over, then when the insurance company called whoever had loaded the trailer, trying to figure out an excuse to avoid paying the claim, most business's got so tired of dealing with them, since they didn't flop over on their property, only loaded on their property. Most all of those business's banned dumps completely, they wouldn't let any on their property, either to load or unload, frameless end dumps went by the wayside fast around here. Some of the local quarries won't load them either, only framed end dumps, so the incidence of frameless going over in my area is pretty slim, mainly due to not many in the area to begin with. About that same time, custom silage harvesters were buying frameless end dumps as well, not sure why, but they thought they were cheap to haul silage with, if I recall in one day, one harvester lost every frameless end dump he had, his guys flopped ever one, to this day, he's banned by his insurance company from owning, loading into, or pulling any end dump trailer period, not even full framed trailers, as I recall, not one trailer was worth fixing, all had the axles assembly cut out and the trailers were just scrapped out. If you ask the guy today, about a frameless end dump, he'll get pretty quiet and not say much, I think its still a pretty sore subject even after all those years. I'd have to ask again, but if I recall, when one went over, it landed on a new packing tractor and totaled that too, as they say, someone's learning curve went way up that day. That was about the time they came out with live bottom silage trailers pulled by semi's and live bottom boxes mounted on trucks, or when both became really popular in my area anyhow. So I'm not sure if that answers your question of not fixing a frameless trailer or not, but I do know of many that won't pull one, even to this day no matter what's in it, I'm told when your behind the wheel and one goes over, its something you won't forget, but then again, I know of a few that have flopped over side dumps, taking the truck with it, it was a picture moment seeing the driver crawl out the passengers widow as the whole rig laid on its side, can't say its on my bucket list of things to do personally, not sure it was on theirs either, but as they say, sh*t happens.
We had one of those frameless delivery trucks go over on our farm. He was dumping a load of gluten and 1/4 or more of the load stayed in the top of the trailer when he got it all the way up. Over she went, tractor and all. The noise scared the cows which caused them to rush to the far end of the barn. One cow slipped and went down and got trampled to death. We banned frameless dumps on our farm after that one. As far as the truck and trailer, the truck drove away after being righted. The trailer was loaded up and hauled away to a salvage yard. That said, we've also tipped over our own forage dump trucks under similar circumstances. We tip them right side up, replace a mirror or two, check the fluids and go back to trucking.
how things are different in different areas around here everyone has frameless over framed there lighter. i have pulled one a fair bit for hauling dirt sand or gravel demoed concrete and manure. i cant say that i hear of them going over all that often and most of the time its because they were dumping on questionable ground. i know of three framless that went over all three of them had the arms and the rams replaced and went back to work had some dents but nothing terrible.
They are very handy trailers... especially if your stuck and it is level enough to get the trailer up. I am your neighbor here in New England and contractor's here do not deviate from what they have done before. They cling to triaxles like they were tablets Moses hauled down the mountain. There are no side dumps here. Most people think that a thumb is a piece welded permanently to the boom versus a hydraulic multiplier thumb. A good running progressive west coast company could come in here and make a fortune with gear they already own that is more progressive then most (not all) New England companies. If you have a operation that will tolerate a frameless trailer (with a wide A frame from the fifth wheel to a support pivot that is as wide as the trailer rail, similar to the one in image. The only thing you can't do with a frameless is put a twist in the frame to slide a foul load, drop the hoist and pull out of the twist and then dump the rest of the load out. with a frameless you have to tailgate a pile to stand the the low side of the back axle on. Then slide the load put the hoist down pull off the pile and dump her again. All this fun can usually be avoid by a hand who can get it down the middle of the trailer) why tote around the frame. However you will find me with a Raven or a Steco of another frame type of similar design for demo. Lots of cool stuff around Engcom and Steel Wrist rotators, On machine grade control, and look up a 8CMR Mecalac on You Tube. Very cool iron out there being developed by all the manufacturers.
This was done with a 35 ton Fruhauf (SP) lengthened 3 feet to get the inner bridge to work. I don't remember the weights exactly the trailer was like 43 the drivers were 41 ish and the front was light! It was a workable legal permit combination and hauled that 52000 pound 977 around for quite awhile as well as several excavators incident free. Took a driver and an effort was made not to move it marginal weather.
I only hauled it once behind the dump truck for a short distance. To much weight to wide. Don't know exactly what I was grossing but somewhere between 87 and 90,000 lbs. Close to legal except overweight, over width and over height!
I guess laws vary, but 100% legal here. I'm only at 13'2" height, legal is 13'6". Scaled in once at 92,500lbs, which I was over on the trailer but easy to get legal by putting extra buckets in box. Width is irreverent, the loads not changing width with a different trailer. I'm so happy I went with the tag, it's so much nicer, and not having a truck sitting 90% of the time because i'm only moving the machine on average once a week. The only move I regretted it was a out of town job, 3 hours on the highway I did wish that move I had a lowboy. But the other 99% of the time, it's so much better then a lowboy.
CalTrans has a lot of two axle dumps and they often pull three axle tag trailers for their loaders. The drywall delivery company has a flatbed tandem axle but they had to get the three axle trailer for their reachlift due to the machine's CG, bridge rules and the tongue wt. Going to the jobsite they have all that drywall on the truck bed but on the way back to the yard just the reachlift on the trailer. Maybe they load it in a slightly different spot depending? will ask next time I meet up w the driver.