hi everyone, i am guessing that like the Ford vs Chevy argument, there is no obvious winner in these questions. regardless, i am in over my head and about to spend my life savings on a machine that i know very little about. i would appreciate some guidance. i have a homestead on a very remote island off the coast of portugal, so reliability is a priority for me. if this machine breaks, i will need to ship it by sea freight to a mechanic to be repaired. the machines that i have found available are the KOMATSU WB93R-8 and the JCB 3CX M55 Evolution. They have similiar specs, but the Komatsu offers a 3 year warranty over the JCB 1 year warranty. just looking at them, i get the idea it is like a Toyota vs Jaguar....and I would opt for the toyota in that case because parts are more accesable and less expensive and the average mechanic knows how to fix them. Thanks for the kind input and suggestions.
Do you have any equipment distributor on this island? I'm not fond of either of your choices to be honest.
Welcome to the forum Magnus. You might consider buying from the closest dealer/distributor to your location. Just how remote are you? Got any neighbors with equipment? Maybe you could rent?
I've only ever bought used heavy equipment. Probably a different group of choices where you live. I have had bad experiences with John Deere parts & service. Case, on the other hand has been excellent.
Ship the machine? I think you are looking at this the wrong way. You should probably be working your deal to include a reduced cost of having one of their mechanics come to you.
Komatsu still makes a backhoe?
Yes But not in the US as far as I know. And that isn't very far.
hi everyone, thanks for the responses. there are no local distributors on our island. there are about 3 functional machines on the island and none of them are available to the public. if you are curious, i live on Flores Island of the Azores. 3500 population and declining. there are a handful of people who have some experience with these machines, but no formal training. hence, why i am springing for a new machine instead of used with issues. there may be other dealers in the Azores. I had Komatsu and JCB recommended to me, so I started there. there is a Komatsu dealer on another island in the Azores that includes transportation. The JCB is on the continent and I have to pay transport and insurance, and higher taxes.
This is remote! Literally smack in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
i like my privacy. ;-)
There is a CAT dealer on the larger island also. I have not enquired from them yet, as I heard it was difficult to get parts in the EU from CAT.
That would come as a surprise. Cat is worldwide renowned for parts distribution.
How hard will it be to get parts from a brand that doesn't have a dealer on the island?
Who said Cat would be hard to get parts for? You should make a deal that for any warranty work the dealer comes to your island or pays to ship your machine back and forth if necessary.
there is no dealer on our island, but there are some on the larger islands of the Azores. Alternatively, they would be in Continental Portugal with a higher tax rate and longer distance for help.
What I would do is contact the Cat dealer and the Komatsu dealer and see what they would do for you, for field service. Do not contact the sales staff. Call the outside service desk at each location.
JCB is a lot more popular in Europe but if they use specific hyd. fittings getting replacement hoses could be a pain. Part of the deal on a new machine should include common maintenance items and maybe some things like the most commonly replaced hoses. Komatsu isn't very well known for backhoes so going with Cat is likely the best bet.
Magnus, off topic, but you seem to know the English language well. Do most people speak English so well there? If I came to visit, would I be able to order dinner at a restaurant for example? Just curious.
English is my first language. i moved to Flores in 2007 to restore an abandoned homestead and stone house. 3 kids and a divorce later, my project has expanded considerably. On Flores, not many people speak english, but on the larger islands most do. on Terciera there is an American Air Base, so everyone speaks english. on Flores in the 1970s there was a French radar station, so there are quite a few French speakers from the last generation.
most things can be shipped. under 5kg is airmail and over 5kg is ocean freight. it is the subsequent installation that concerns me. i am not great at mechanics. i am a gardener and arborist, part time builder.
So, you are buying new? Wouldn't the warranty coverall those island locations by a local dealer? What is your purchase budget?
Warranty doesn't equal reliability, and I don't think the warranty matters if the dealer isn't close. Would the warranty include them flying a mechanic in to fix things? Or does that just mean "at the dealership" because of your location? Who on the island fixes the cars/ garbage trucks/ utility equipment? The newer emissions equipment can take down a machine/ derate it, and its going to take a dealer tech for some things to get it going. This is what concerns me. Does this machine have to "make money" for you in outside projects- in order for you to live and eat? If you really don't know what you are doing, heavy equipment can get expensive in a hurry. If I had to vote, it would be Cat or Komatsu (because they have dealer help close- and you're going to need help), I have yet to meet anything JCB that I liked. JCB just do things differently. You state that there's other equipment on the island (just not available- I'm guessing its government)- what are they using? Personally, I would go with something at half the price and used--- vs. buying brand new. If the used route works out $$$ wise, you can always end up buying a new one 5 years from now. Or- you'll decide you really can't afford a new one. I realize access to used isn't going to be easy- but you can look at it this way, either a new one or a used one is going to have to get shipped in. You're going to pay shipping cost either way. Buy something used out of europe and have it brought in, and keep 1/2 to 2/3 of the money in your pocket. No one I know- purchases a new machine, with no experience, or the revenue stream to support it. Anything new is going to be full of touchscreens, electronic joysticks, and telematics and can bus. If I was going to a remote location, I'd want the simplest and dumbest iron available. I.e. something from 20 years ago with limited electrical, and more simple lever controls and just hydraulic hoses. The more simple it is, the easier it is going to be, to keep it running.
yes, buying new seems the safest option, although costly. i am striving to understand the specifics of the warranty system currently, as 'local' in this context is across the ocean in some form. The budget is around 100,000 euros.
It's real encouraging talk in here buying new equipment. But they are correct, we have a newer track hoe at work and it quit running. The factory certified repair guy had to come in hassled with it and on the phone with the factory for several days, and they finally had to replace the whole complete touchscreen inside the cab. It had just went out of warranty.
well, you have summed up my last 6 months of angst....lol i think there will be a market for selling my services as an operator with a machine, since there is more demand than availability for this type of work locally, for construction, road access, and farming. the machine doesn't have to make the money back, but it would be ideal and plausible. the local government has a collection of dead machines, as do some other bankrupt construction companies. the sea air corrodes them quickly here. so, there are some self taught mechanics that do their best, but are not available to the public. i've seen jcb, new holland, cat all in the rust pile.
On the topic of buying new there are varying degrees of "warranty". As others have posted about all the electronics on new machines can be expensive to repair. We recently purchased a Cat 325 excavator with a 5 year, 5,000 powertrain, hydraulic and technology warranty since it is nothing but large computer with tracks. I will sell/trade this machine before the warranty is out. The first 12 months of warranty includes the service truck coming to our jobsite since we work within a 20-30 mile distance from a dealer location. The remaining 48 months we will have to pay travel time on the service truck port to port however parts and labor are still covered. This can be $300 + per trip depending on distance and whether the tech has to go get parts. Like others have discussed how valuable is the warranty when you have to pay for a tech to fly back and forth? Would you also have to pay for their lodging and meals? If so new may not be the best option. Also didn't think of the salt. It's amazing what salt air will do to destroy anything metal. You may want to consider buying used and cheap to run until it doesn't and get another one. Sounds wasteful but you are not in a normal environment.
Perhaps a few of us can rotate out and give you a crash course in how to do some things Regarding the salt air: Make a tight storage situation for the machine, so it does not suffer greatly just sitting there. Rinse it off every day that has bad mist conditions.
I'm good for 10-12 days.
Well, I'm glad you found this place on the worldwide web. There is someone likely here, that's fixed whatever problem you come across. Looks like there is a volvo and Cat dealer on sao miguel. I take it that's where any support comes from? A island of 3,500 people may make it tough to keep a backhoe busy, but if there's no competition, that makes it easier. Bankrupt construction companies? See- there's your sign to not buy new equipment. You don't want to be in that category. So if you are EU- you really have all of southern europe as your shopping area for used equipment? Spain, Portugal, southern france- Italy? $100,000 is a great budget. 30-40,000 eu would buy a pretty nice used backhoe in the U.S, If the salt air is going to eat it up, there's no reason to buy new. What's it cost to get a backhoe from portugal or spain to the islands? $10,000- $20,000? Can they offload at your port? What's your support for fuel/ oil / supplies? Here's the way I look at equipment in a remote environment. Transmission and engine axles, are a wash between new and old- the new has emissions in the engine, but used engines have hours and some age on it. Any problems in these components is going to take someone expert to fix. Where the real difference is in the "control" systems. Anything new is going to be electric joysticks, wires, and electric controlled valving- to the cylinder. Older is going to be a lever or pilot hydraulic joysticks, controlling a valve body to the cylinder. If the newer quits working, it can be the electric joystick, the wiring, the electric controlled solenoid on the valve body, or maybe the ecu if its can bus. All of which take a pretty good electric guy, and/ or the laptop to figure out why its not working. The older system, there's likely a big puddle of hydraulic oil, which is going to point you to why its not working. So why is it electrical today instead of the older style? Because its cheaper to build a plastic joystick and run wires than the old system of hoses and levers. Its not more reliable, its not longer lasting, its cheaper for them to build. As another "example". Monday morning- you go to start the backhoe, and nothing happens when you turn the key. A "older" machine- you need 12v to the key, 12v leaving the key, 12v at the starter from the batteries. A small jumper wire will bypass the key portion, and a hammer smack will diagnose a stuck starter solenoid. A new machine can be any of a number of safeties in the ecu, seat belt, canbus, and all the engine systems, as well as a starter with a stuck solenoid. And bypassing 12v to the starter solenoid and a hammer smack- isn't going to get it running. Good luck with your search! Don't get burnt out on finding the "exact" perfect machine, sometimes good enough is "good enough". If you have some used equipment you're looking at, post up links and pictures here, and there's plenty of free advice on models and years to buy, and what to avoid.
Thanks for leaning into this, @crane operator
I'll second buying a good, used machine, preferably 20-25yrs old. On a remote island the last thing I'd want are any sort of electronics that require the dealer to plug in a computer to "fix" it. The older stuff is easier for anyone to work on, and easier for folks like us to troubleshoot via the web to help you fix it. You want something that has either all mechanical or hydraulic pilot controls and no emissions or electronic engine management. For most makes if you stay pre-2005 you should be good. I'd buy the nicest, lowest hour, unit you can find that meets those criteria. Have the local dealer on the mainland wherever you buy it from go through it, fully service it, and fix anything that needs fixing, then ship it out to your location.
Just cruising the web and looking at what was available in europe through machinery trader. I was shocked by the number of case machines available, I didn't realize they were that big in europe. Mostly JCB (but a lot of equipment that I searched is from england, so that tracks with what showed up in my search). And some cat machines also. P.S. there's also a case dealer on Sao miguel- case backhoes are quite popular in the U. S. I'd be looking for something like these machines, if I were in your shoes. 1998 CASE 580SLE For Sale in Cuneo, Cn 1998 CASE 580SLE For Sale in Cuneo, Cn at MachineryTrader.com. BENNA 4/1 BRACCIO TELESCOPICO CERTIFICATO CE MANUALE USO MANUTENZIONE OMOLOGAZIONE STRADALE www.machinerytrader.com 2012 CASE 580T For Sale in Hamilton 2012 CASE 580T For Sale in Hamilton at MachineryTrader.com. 2012 CASE 580T BACKHOE / 3 x BUCKETS / AS NEW CONDITION / 470 HOURS www.machinerytrader.com 2006 CATERPILLAR 428E For Sale in Market Bosworth, England 2006 CATERPILLAR 428E For Sale in Market Bosworth, England at MachineryTrader.com. Caterpillar 428E 300,450,600,900,Ditching bucket buckets included This machine is absolutely fantastic condition, one owner from new who is a small builder No faults, no leaks. www.machinerytrader.com I threw in the 2012 one just because it was such a low hour machine. Something under 4-5,000 hours or so, it would be nice if it came with a couple different buckets and forks. You haven't mentioned if you need a breaker or not, but I'd want one plumbed for a breaker, and 4x4. If you can spend $30,000 or so on a nice used one, it gives you a lot of money for any repairs, and you don't have to learn on a brand new machine. Buy used and learn for a couple years what you are doing, and then shop for a new one, you'll know a lot better then, what you are looking for.
If you go on Machinery trader, you can search by brand, years, country, etc. I just specified backhoe, and picked a couple european countries. https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/search?Category=1046&Country=45%7C58%7C81%7C153%7C159%7C64&page=9
Those still have pesky electronics to corrode.
My advise considering your location and population is to buy at least 2 older machines around 25 years old. You might get 3 for €100k. With 3 indentical machines,you’ll just about manage 100% availability and you can simply canibilise each one over the years until you end up with none. 2 or 3 loader backhoes would be a headache,but only one would be a nightmare
If I was in your situation I would hold out for a pre emission Case, Cat or Deere depending on parts availability. As an example my 2004 Case 580M series1 is stupid simple, a few relays, no emission BS and only 1,000 easy hours. It was purchased new for ranch use and is a barn queen. One like it would be a rare find but I occasionally see older well kept units online. They do fetch a high price though. Get a lot of Corrosion X and wash it regularly with Holdtite.
That's like our trench rollers - need 2 in order to have one that runs.
Being on a remote island, and not a mechanic, there's not a great answer. What machinery have you operated before? what kind of work do you expect to do? is the market there to pay for a new machine or three used ones? I would never suggest this otherwise, but given the circumstances, I'd suggest a used farm tractor (90's or so with virtually zero electronics) and three point backhoe, that almost seems like the most reliable solution. If a more specialized machine is justified, three used JCB's. Or a farm tractor and mini excavator. Unless you can talk to customers on the other islands that are satisfied with the service from the local dealers on new equipment, I'd hate to take the risk of new when the warranty could be useless because of transport costs.
So it looks like your island Flores is about 1200 miles from Lisbon. Which is crazy far, but you are in the middle of the ocean. I found these guys selling John Deere equipment (including construction) in Portugal and in several cities including Lisbon. Moviter Equipamentos S.A has five sales and service locations across Portugal (Leiria, Lisbon, Oporto, Évora and Funchal)
This thread is the best "what machine should I buy" thread in a long time.
Its way more fun to spend other people's money.
That’s what I was thinking, some really well thought out contributions/advice by members!
Yes, it is really handy to have a parts machine…your own personal ‘wrecking yard’ less down time as well. Often times you can pick up a parts machine pretty cheap; especially if one ‘major’ component is damaged.
If there's a Case dealer on the mainland, that would be a good choice for a used machine. I think Case are a lot simpler than most other brands.
I’ve allways ran at least 2 big tractors for this reason.My D8 is currently out doing a few hours a month and my D9 is sat snoozing in the yard for a year as a back up. It is earning me nothing,but gives me a good nights sleep knowing it’s there
thank you everyone for the thoughtful responses. i have only scanned them so far. i am looking forward to understanding them all. i shall return. homestead never sleeps, nor does the sick baby. lol
Caterpillar has a big fan base. I have had good luck with my Case Dealer. I can't say the best TBL, in your country it might be one I've never heard of. If you want to discuss features I DO have opinions!
i have reached out to the CAT dealer in San Miguel (The Big Island), now I am just waiting for a callback from the sales rep to find out options. I am still searching for the Case dealer in the Azores. for a point of reference, I am struggling to find a mechanic to sell and mount tires on my car. This island forces self-reliance, for better or worse. so, I am reluctant to buy anything used with pre-existing conditions. i don't have a barn or any type of enclosed space to work on a car or TLB. one of the first 'jobs' i plan do after purchasing a machine will be to dig some footers and install a covered area to park the machine and my truck under (we get intense wind and rain from September to May) , as well as a picnic spot in summer for my kids and as a shady spot to slaughter livestock and hang it in autumn. I also had a jeep that I drove to the mechanics to replace a leaking head gasket and after buying 1000 euros of parts and waiting 6 months, he finally confessed he could not figure out why it would no longer start...so it went to the landfill. I have about 15 jobs i need to do on my land, and I estimate that will take me about 2 years to get through those jobs assuming the machine doesn't break and I have 20 hours/week to work with it. After that, I will look for off farm work to recoup some of the upfront cost from a personal loan to pay off in 15 years. It seems like Case and CAT are preferred over either Komatsu or JCB. is that correct? please tell me this isn't just a "USA made with pride" issue, as I realize most of the forum members are from the USA. I am in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean and have no allegiances beyond my family. I just need something that does what it is meant to do. shipping here from the mainland ports is about 2000 euros. shipping from within the islands is about 500 euros.
If you are set on buying new, I’d go with who ever is the most willing/inexpensive to fly a service tech out to your location. Once the machine is there, it’s there. You may not physically be able to get it back to a dealer even if you wanted to. If at all possible stay away from any machine that needs DEF. That may not even be a thing in your area, but those are by far the most troublesome parts of the new electronic controlled diesels in my experience.
I've owned five used backhoes in my time thus far. None have made an essential trip to a dealer. I'm a fair mechanic, as is my son. By a wide margin the machine most plagued by mysterious ailments have been the newest one. The newest one is a nightmare of electronic components. No one knows how to address them. I did take it to the dealer when I first bought it. It had numerous trouble codes, & wouldn't go into first gear. I brought it home from the dealer because they said it wasn't malfunctioning any longer. A year later, it failed again to go into first gear. A great deal of research & testing by me & my son, it proved to be a shift solenoid actuator. I might seek a very skilled mechanic willing to come on island. All machines will eventually need a mechanic.
Another Off-Topic: As has been said already, I find this post extremely interesting. In all my years working for Ford worldwide - 30+ years on the digital end, I do not recall any internet encounters that have piqued my interest more than this one. The Azores --- when you said you liked your privacy you certainly were not kidding around. If you don't mind me asking, where are you in relation to the airport or more specifically where are you on the Island. I'm a first time owner as well and these gentlemen know their stuff. You have come to the right place for help and advice.
I believe if you are going to buy new, unless it’s a clam, you would not be worried about repairing it for awhile.
Cat and Case are a USA thing. There are plenty of each in Europe. JD is a better machine, but there are more cat and case here also. If you're buying from Europe, JCB is the biggest backhoe maker in the world, and I'd think Komatsu is fine too, but don't know anything about their newer machines and their emissions issues (or cat, case, JD, NH, for that matter). If you could get a new third world version out of Africa, that would be the best possible outcome. If you get EU subsidies, I don't think that's possible. It sounds like there is a shortage of competent mechanics, so the dealer determines everything unfortunately. I wish I could agree that you won't need to repair anything for a while, I just don't know. And what do you do once the waranty expires?
JD being better is debatable but they are more complicated. An older non electronic Case or Cat would be my preference. Case was the best selling backhoe for many years. I would see if a dealer(s) had a good used 20 or so year old machine. You could have them go through everything and fix any issues and replace suspect hoses. You hear of lots of issues with new machines. They may be under warranty but it could take weeks to get someone out to look at it and then even longer to get the parts and come back out to do the repairs. Even to get someone to come out to hook a lap top up to diagnose a problem could take a while. Save your money and buy a fully inspected and serviced used machine for less than half the cost of new. If you don't abuse it and properly maintain it, you should be golden.
To clarify, I live up in the mountains, about 100 meters above sea level and a few kilometers from the coast. We don't get salt spray here typically. My village is Fazenda da Santa Cruz, if you look on google earth. Only a 30 minute drive to the airport, about an hour to drive to the port in Lages. The government and construction companies are all near the ports at sea level, and full of rust.
For the most part, I'm fairly certain the recommendations you are receiving are not based on country loyalties (brand loyalties maybe), but more likely on the best way to achieve your goals. I have to admit, I'm an unapologetically Ford Guy. Oh...guess where my wife wants to go for holiday...
Azores are known to all the sailors, both the old days and modern sailors. It is a place to get water and fuel and kiss mother earth after a rough Atlantic passage.
That is how the Johnson clan got a foot hold on these slopes. My parents sailed in here on a 28 foot self designed and built wooden boat in the 1960s, without a motor on board.I came here in 1984 for the first time, before the EU happened and changed everything.
Maybe I can get a tutorial in exchange for some organic produce while you guys are here.
Looks like my wife and I can fly round try from Bham Al through Lisben to San Miguel for approximately $700 each. Bet you can have some good seafood for supper?
if anyone is curious, this is what I have learned so far. JCB gives a 1 year warranty. during this period, the client pays for all travel and accommodations. after the year ends, the client pays for travel and parts and labor. JCB only sends mechanics/techs from the mainland. CAT gives a 2 year warranty. they have teams in the Azores. they have not specified the details of travel costs yet. CASE gives a 1 year warranty. they have teams in the Azores. they have not specified the details of travel costs yet. KOMATSU gives a 3 year warranty and 2 year add on for 2000 euros. they are in the Azores, but have not specified the details of travel costs yet. I haven't been able to track down VOLVO yet, do they still make backhoe loaders?
I still don't think a new machine makes any sense, with no more hours than you are going to use it. Especially if you have to borrow money to buy it. After a year or two, you won't have any warranty, and will be on your own for fixing it, even if you buy new. So look at it this way, a used machine at $30,000 vs a new machine at $100,000 New machine is $70,000 more money, if you borrow the extra amount (70,000) for 8 years at 8%, the payments are $990 a month. So $12,000 a year just in the extra payments for the new machine vs. a used machine. There are very few people using a backhoe at your usage rate, that are spending $12,000 a year upkeeping it. I would bet most would be closer to spending $2- 3,000 per year in repair expenses, if that. Save up the first year extra payment amount ($12,000) and I bet you wouldn't need it for repairs for the first 5 years that you own the older used machine. The only people buying new, are contractors for a multiple equipment fleet, gov't and municipal (power, water, sewer) users. Or people that are independently wealthy (and you said you were borrowing the money). I was surprised that the fees to get it shipped to you, weren't more expensive. If you do decide to get new, just for your own piece of mind, I can understand your reasoning, and I do hope it all works out for you. I've really enjoyed reading about where you live, its a little outside the box, of where most of us live.
I agree with all that. Unfortunately, it hinges on finding a good used machine that is properly evaluated on the mainland. That will be a process that needs careful consideration. If you choose to go that route, start posting up candidates and we can help weed out the obvious bad ones. When the list gets distilled down, pay an independent equipment inspector to go over it, then cut the check and get it coming.
A used machine from a dealer may be a good idea as they could go through everything.
I'd be surprised if a new machine can be bought for $100,000. I looked at MSRP on my Case. It is now 10 years old, sold new for about $125,000. That is 2014 dollars. I presume many more dollars today.
what I have read is that machines begin showing problems around 6000 hours, assuming no stupid mistakes by previous operators. all the used machines with fewer hours than 6000 are going for 70,000+ the new machines from CASE and KOMATSU have manufacturer/extended warranties lasting 4 and 5 years after purchase date. about 100,000 euros. I am most likely limited to Spain and Portugal for options, potentially France....but I expect the transport fees will double with each country the machine passes through. in my situation, it is a personal loan from a family member without interest...I got very lucky. I hope to pass this machine on to my 3 sons (2, 10, 12 years old) , along with my chainsaws and other landscaping/farming equipment, so they can carry on the farm and have an optional income in their future. anyhow, a lot of angles to consider. I really appreciate your input and time in helping think this through. I am not opposed to an older used machine, but none are old enough to exclude the electronics that y'all have warned me against. the KOMATSU website has a SpecCheck feature that allows me to get a sense of the minor differences between machines.
I found CAT and CASE offer certified used with a 6 month warranty, I am considering this option.
Can't go wrong with either of those.
That's a much better idea!
Just make sure the machines are old enough, if it's not older than ~2005 it's going to have all the same electrical problems as a new one and then you're back to square one.
I have never owned a Caterpillar machine, I have very little time running Cat. I'm partial to Case, but there are flaws in each model, take some getting used to. 580K swings WAY too fast, has a weird swing proportioning valve supposed to slow the swing each way as it reaches the limit of travel. Early models with extend a hoe had a bolt on bottom of the dipper stick, keeps loosening up. Case once offered a weld on piece no longer available. All models were standard with 3 lever hoe, foot swing. Extend a hoe had a fourth lever. I'd avoid that. You want four wheel drive, torque converter, I'd want extend a hoe. Clam bucket is sweet! A cab is essential if you don't have indoor storage.
I have not found any that old. everything is about 5 years old. that's a big reason why I'm not sure if the 25% savings is worth the wear and tear.
Yes, it is worth the savings because when you buy a brand new piece of equipment, there are always some teething issues. You do not want to be paying a technician all that travel time to come out and fix routine little things that happen with a brand new machine. Usually by the time it has a few hundred hours under the belt, it's fairly reliable. Keep in mind you buy a new machine and you're going to want to do all of the factory service with the technician to keep that warranty. They're not going to come out for free. On the other hand, we can talk you through all the service on your used machine and it just doesn't matter.
No, it is not. A warranty has value. If you are saving 25% off new, you should go new. If you save 50% from new, you have incentive to endure some inconvenience.
Over the 20+ years of buying new heavy equipment I've had very few issues from the start. The vast majority of that equipment was Cat however there were some Bobcats and a Gradall along the way. It's the reason I like to buy new, take care of it and keep it as long as it makes business sense. We have a few nostalgic pieces of iron that I want to keep but might need to go.
I would think good used would still be more than a 25% discount over new. I'd guess 35-40%. Then it's worth considering.
Mine was 8 years old when I bought it, just under 2000 hours. I paid less than 44% of 2014 new price. I shopped around a long time. Some very competent mechanic had written in silver sharpie on each component when fluids or maintenance was performed. Front differential had been replaced near new, I think warranty work. Mine was heavily optioned. I don't believe the hoe had ever been used. Cutting edge of the front bucket was heavily worn both edges, I think most of the 2000 hours were loader work. It had numerous alarm codes. Low fuel alarm came on each time it tipped. Fuel tank sending unit was bad. The water alarm sensor was bad. Had a problem with first gear not working. Hauling it to a dealer failed to resolve it. They said they used it like a four wheeler two weeks, couldn't get it to fail. I brought it home used it 1-1/2 years before it acted up again. Proved to be a bad magnet coil on a shifter.
I think most markets would have good used machines at 40% off new. Just make sure any machine you're considering is fully inspected and don't just jump on the 1st machine you see. That doesn't mean the 1st machine wouldn't be a good machine. Sometimes people are impatient and buy the 1st machine they look at without fully inspecting it or seeing what else is available.
Hi Magnus. My opinion, I tend to side with @crane operator regarding rather purchasing a good used machine, rather than a new machine with a limited warranty. Out of personal experience, the new electronic controlled machines are stronger and more nimble, but they do tend to give more electronic problems around 6000Hrs. Depending on the fault, this would normally de-rate the machine, and you won't get the performance you may need from the machine. An older machine will still give some electrical problems, but they are easier to figure out and repair with minimal experience needed, and usually fixed by components that you can find locally from an Automotive Spares Shop, or bypassed completely. These machines would most likely outlive your children too if properly taken care of. (I have a customer that has an Old CAT 428 built in 1992 which has more than 42000Hrs on and still going strong after I repaired the transmission last year) Ultimately, the decision you make when purchasing a machine still remains with you, but I would however mention that should you purchase a new or used machine, purchase one that would offer you the best aftermarket services and parts availability. This being said, deciding between Cat, Case or Komatsu, most of the machines today are pretty reliable if the machine is looked after and maintained properly. I don't think there is a "Best Brand" out there, its all about the maintenance of the machine, and to maintain a machine, you need reliable aftermarket services from the OEM. Having a 3 - 5 year warranty may look like an attractive deal, but having the machine stand for months at end because there is no parts or technicians available, doesn't seem like a lucrative option. I hope this helps you make the decision easier.
Hi, I live in the canary islands as an expat, on the island with the recent volcano, and I've been looking for a backhoe or excavator for 6+ years. I've traveled to other islands half a dozen times to look at machines and did a tour around the mainland of spain looking at many machines. My search area has included france, Benelux, and the UK. We have some things in common that pertain to your search: remote location and limited technical knowledge of locals. I studied engineering, and I love being a shade tree mechanic. I do jobs here on the island as a mechanic (machinery, automotive, motorcycles, home appliances, etc) because local mechanics regularly screw up things as simple as oil changes (e.g. stripping threads in aluminum oil pans and then using epoxy to seal the drain plug and sending the client on their way. Changing a drain plug washer is unheard of here.) Please allow me to share with you some of what I've learned (I'm not from here, because a typical person from here would never spend 30 minutes of their time to help another human being without there being something in it for them. As it pertains, I do miss living in the USA and the UK - on average FAR kinder people, far less selfishness.) Nonetheless, here's what I've learned from reading hundreds if not thousands of hours (to the point of reading service manuals for machines I don't own!!!). I think I've watched half of the youtube videos that exist on repairing backhoes and and excavators. I've talked with small and large machinery owners in different countries, and have looked at machines myself. But I have never owned a machine, just operated a few and did some simple repairs to a few. 1. If you buy a backhoe you will need to increase your mechanical willingness to turn wrenches. As it pertains, what people have said here on this forum about buying used is, from one perspective, sound advice because of the lack of local competency where you are. Used (usually pre-2003) means simple. New is not always better because you will never have the tools or the time to diagnose 100s of sensors, kilometres of wire, and handfuls of computers on the newer machines. Buying new means a high-level of dependence on the dealer (and high €€€€€s long term). If it is new, after the first couple of years you will need an income stream to continue using the machine. 2. Keep in mind that there are different mentalities of how to use and care for a machine. This is important when buying a used machine. For example, in the canary islands, maintenance is nearly unknown. People don't attend to issues when things are wearing out. They wait for things to break. In other countries people upkeep their machines. The father of a friend of mine didn't think motorcycles needed oil in their engines. I've only ever known 1 machine owner to change the oil in the final drives. Whereas in the northwest continental Europe and in the UK there is more maintenance done. More contentiousness. It is even better in France. When considering buying a used machine there is a big difference between a machine that has some normal wear yet has been maintained and buying a machine where everything is just about to fail. I believe it was Carrero that stated in print at one point that their axles and gearboxes were designed for 12000 hours. They can last longer, but maintenance is important. Wait until it breaks is a social mentality in the canary islands, and mainland spain is only nominally better. Of course there are exceptions. I saw an amazing 18-ton Komatsu wheeled excavator in the mainland of spain with 12000 hours that looked and operated nearly like new. But keep in mind not the exceptions but rather the rules. 3. Brands: with your remote location you want to be focused on parts availability and dealer willingness (and cost) to ship them to you. In terms of brands you want to buy a machine, whether new or used, that has a local dealer. Note: Most of the forum members here are US-based and Komatsu is not as common in the US but John Deere is. The european Komatsu machines (with the exception of the early Fiat ones) I've seen have been very nice (smooth operation of the hydraulics, the engines seemed far quieter and smoother than all other brands). Also stay far away from Caterpillar "D" series backhoes in Europe I believe they were made in the UK. The US-made ones were fine but the european ones (428D, 432D, 438D) have horrible welding. I've never seen anything as bad. The absolute best used machine you could buy is probably a european Case 580SLE or 590SLE, made in France. Simple, extremely robust, great welding, will withstand continued demolition hammer use, and parts are still available. I've heard good things from people with the 580SM also but the 580SM came with the IVECO and not the cummings. Cat C-series are and also the earlier E-series seem good (though the E-series has computers). Older Cat machines come with perkins designed engines with replaceable liners, an advantage, as engine rebuilds are easy and can be done "in-frame). The cummings doesn't have removable liners but they seem to never die. I'd prefer to have a machine with a cummings (lasts forever) or yanmar (smooth and quiet). Some people like and some people don't like the JCBs but they seem to keep working; I rarely see dead JCBs here. 4. Governmental compliance. People are selling used machines in europe because they can no longer do public work with machines that do not meet certain emissions. The EU is just another manipulated governmental entity. And having read eu law here for ages I see the way they do things. First was tiered emissions compliance for new sales, then more and more public works were obligated to contract with requirements for emissions compliance. The next step is all contractors will need to use compliant machinery. The second to last step will be to outlaw the ability to use roads with machines that don't meet certain emissions compliance (either via manufacturers' statements or via inspections). The last step will be to make them illegal (akin to 2-stroke engines in waterways in the USA). So, buying new means dependence on dealers and €€€€s but you will be able to use the machine to make some of the money you soend. Buying used may mean a more reliable long-term machine (if you can find a good one) but that it may be limited to just your property. I wish you the best, Dave
The used market is a jungle! I've bought 6 backhoes in 22 years. My goal is to find a well maintained machine, at a price I can afford. I've looked at perhaps 100. Most I have bought were in good condition except for a disabling condition the former owner couldn't figure out. In some cases the dealer mechanic, trained by manufacturer might figure it out, but cost exceeds the value of the machine.