I dont know about everyone else's part of the coutry but it seems like everywhere you look around here, outfits are getting rid of all there 37's and 27's, they say there not cost efficent for how lil dirt they move! Why dont they take a look at the operators in the seat! If there not cost effiecent its more then likely the 2 knuckle heads that you have in the seat that are costing you! It makes me so angry watching a pair of 37's or 27's self loading, there is no reason that you cant push pull, i dont care if you have 20ft of cut, or 5 tenths. Me and my brother ran a pair of 27F's for 7 years and there wasnt once that we wasnt push pulling, what really made it handy was when they put trimble on my scraper, they would always send us to jobs to finish, and when we finished there was no reason to have a dozer there, and thats another thing a 27 is a very versatile machine and if you know its limits there is nothing you cant do, we cut all of are slopes and run them are self, and theres no reason for a dozer to have to run it. But i do believe that with 27's they are not cost efficent if they are going over 1500ft, if your not getting 120+ loads a day then i dont think they are paying for themselves, but i could be wrong? Would like to see what everyone else thinks! Is the art of push puling getting phased out?
No push-pulling isn't but 27s DON'T pay for themselves around here. On a good day of pounding dirt as fast as you can you're lucky if you just barely pay for the machine, let alone try to cover the cost of your support (water/packer/grader/foreman). 9/10 days you lose a couple hundred. They are simply too small for the cost of running them compared to the dirt prices.
Who says push/pulling is dead? It's alive and well up here. 27's are kinda small I agree with the Vantage man on this one. 57's are where its at. I would suspect the reason for so many people selling their buggies is the lack of buggy work, is there a lot of buggy work left in some places? Up here there is a ton of buggy work, thats why you see a lot of twin's heading up here to work.
I think burnout brings up a good point about the work for push pulls is kind of thinned out in certain parts of the world/country/region. More and more work is in the "whatever is left" areas that were in the past either too soft, too wet, or too rocky to be bothered with. That and the return of hooking a scraper to a tractor and the go anywhere mentality of the ADT's has cut into the market. Like others said though 27's are expensive for how much they move, and that makes them less practical, and harder to move than say a tractor pull-pan. Course our friends in CA and canada still have grand fleets of push pulls so I do not think they are going anywhere any time soon.
company i used to work for had 14 637's and 16 627's, and 13 631's, they sold all of them off for john deeres and challengers, and quads. Like i said before thou 627's will not pay for themselves if you have 2 enexperienced operators, and if they are going over 1500ft, ideal is 1000ft and under, and if your not getting over 125 loads per scraper, you mite as well park em. And yeah you shouldnt have to have a blade or dozer around for 627's if you have skilled operators, most of the little jobs that the company i was working for would get (100,000 yards and under) they would usualy just take 2 627's and a 963 with a roller, sometimes they mite bring in are other pair or 27's but most of the time they just sat. One pair of 627's moved 28,000 yards in 4 days only support we had was a 963
Around here.... people use 627's for what they were designed. Moving dirt, grading is best left for grading iron, get my drift?
HAHA! Got cha so ur saying that for a pair of 627's you should have a dozer, blade, and compactor on the job, no wonder they cant make money! When we moved the 28,000 yards we did it in 4 days, maintained are own haul road, put the building pad on subgrade, and ran are own slopes, and they were good enuff that a dozer couldnt of done better. Like i said there's not many ppl around anymore that know how to run em. 90% of the jobs we did all we had for support was a highlift. We did are own slopes and put everything on grade with the scraper, but i guess you have never seen that done???
Oh I have seen some amazing buggy operators. I am in an area where the twin engine is alive and well. Up here people use their scrapers to move dirt, and then send it to the next job. Don't need a pile of support iron... but I would reccomend the packer. Ever had a dirt tester come back to haunt you on a project that had settlement and your butt is on the line? The far end of our site has a decent spread, 12 657's, a 16H, D8T, D6T and a D85P, 385CL, 4 740 Komatsu's and to round it our a water truck and 2 packers. Your think their tinkerin around with 28k cubes?
lol thats are little jobs, im on a 6T now, and the current job im working on has 15 631's 3 D10's 3 D6T's, 1 8t, 2 14M's, 10 john deere 9630's pulling pans 1 385B and 3 740's, alos have 3 D400's converted to water trucks and an 825H. We can do very large jobs, and also do very small jobs. And i guess you didnt catch the part about the 963 pulling a roller, all of are test passed with a 95% or higher. All those projects were done years ago when we still used 27's and no one has come back with something wrong with it yet. 8,000 yards a day with a pair of 627s is pretty good, i think they made money
we have 2 627Bs and they sure pay for themselves around here. Of course they have a foot and a half of sideboards added on. But i spent about 200 hours push pulling with those this summer. I definitely dont think its going out anytime soon. If you push with a dozer, you're going to need a D8 to get the damn thing as full as if you were push pulling. That just doesn't seem cost effective at all.
Yeah i hated being pushed, even in chirt.
In Wisconsin it is rare to see a push-pull operation. There are some that still do it, but not many. Most everyone has switched to single engines(621's and 631's). There are no heavy and highway companies running double barrels around here anymore.
yeah its becoming a thing of the past around the mid west, kinda sad when you ask someone if they have ran push pull before and they just give you a dumb look
Dirt prices are dirt prices, and they are pretty consistant around here. If you're doing anything by the cube around here you best be doing with a 37 or 57. We use the 27s to clean up on big sites (although we tend to use more 37s for that anyways) and try to keep the 27s on hourly work. Hell we were building 100x300 ft industrial building pads with 57s, if you can't finish with one of those you don't belong on a scraper
i love my 27, its handy to keep around the house, smooth up my driveway, move a little dirt in the garden stuff like that
Self loading Scraper? In this day & age we are all talking about saving time ,fuel cost ,etc.In my opinion the the self loading scraper has been overlooked.Heck ,they load themselves using one engine on the tractor,cutting edge pulling up the dirt and let the paddles & chain load the bowl.Just somthing wrong about a twinn engine scraper having to be shoved by a dozer to get loaded.The way I look at it is you would be better off to run two self loaders and dont do any shoving with a dozer.The scraper is an awsome tool,not good in muddy conditions but in good dry dirt It's a dozer,grader,haul truck,compactor all in one unit with a good operator.Or we could just call it a dragline bucket on wheels
Why does Caterpillar no longer offer the 651? In a related subject what happened to the 651? Why does Caterpillar no longer offer it? One of the contractors that I work for runs a number of older 651s that are either pushed with a D9L or with a D9L and a D9G doubled up and we are able to move a lot of material. Weight wise a 657 isn't as easy to mobilize to a job site. They are not as fuel efficient as a 651 per material moved.
Eggbeaters have a limited appetite for what they can handle, they do not like rock like an open bowl. Around here the 23 used to be the scraper of choice on all subdivision jobs but as the housing grew and each subdivision grew closer to them they went to 27,s to get rid of the dust problem the levators created and also ditched all the costs associated with it.
A subject dear to my heart 621, pure and simple why they don't offer it any more = no sales for it. There just was not the orders coming in that justified it,s existence so they dropped it. I know of customers that will still buy them and if there was a large enough order Cat would do a 51G but until then it is done. Who is the outfit you work for that has 51,s?
Gavin84W, You are right about elevators & rocks. The only elevating machines I have seen successfully operate in rocky material were Wabco's (252FT, 333FT, 353FT) and a Cat 639D - all now sadly gone from the marketplace
In terms of versitility the 27's are superior for their ability to handle different materials, footing and terrain. We run a couple 23's here in our flat valley where rocks are rare and they are very efficent in their place, they also will pick up after a grader cleanly and they don't leave big berms by the stakes. Each has it's strengths, when it comes to really moving bulk dirt an open bowl can't be beat IMO
Last I knew, 651's were custom orders only. I never cared for 627's. TS-14's were better all around and a lot cheaper to run.
>Who is the outfit you work for that has 51,s? Gavin: I prefer to not name the company on here. It is a small company with only about 10 people on the payroll. All of the equipment is owned and it is older. They do what it takes to make the equipment production ready such as rebuilding scraper floors or rebuilding necks and cushion hitches. They do not have payments to make so if the equipment sits for a while it is not a big concern. They have a fleet of 8 651s and 641s plus a number of smaller finishing scrapers. 621_Rocker
I think that push pulling, and even scrapers in general are seeing a decline in Alberta. With the boom the talent pool for operators really declined. Green operators are dangerous push/pulling, and experienced guys are sick of working with them. Sureway, MAP, Kidco and the like have fleets of them, and will obviously continue to use them...their investment is too great. The industrial guys started shifting away from them towards hoe/truck operations 5 years ago. They are a liability safety wise, as any paint scrape can be classed as a property damage incident. Personnel wise trucks are easier to staff. A crew with 8 scrapers requires 6-8 good operators to work with any kind of efficiency. With trucks you need a hoe hand and a dozer operator....the rest of the guys can be pylons.
I have worked with the hoe/trucks method... I was the hoe operator. Trust me, having mindless steering wheel attendants in the trucks is just as much of a safety hazard as one in a scraper. And even if only 1 driver is mindless... it still makes a baaad day. Ever walked a 450 hitachi across site to pick up black dirt out of road core?
Speaking as an old scraper hand, I think there will always be a place for the scraper in an earthmoving spread, be it a twin, elevator or a towed pan. I believe that the trend away from scrapers to ATD's is/was a passing fad. Sure, there are applications for this type of gear especially if the underfoot conditions are poor. But - why spend extra money on staff, fuel and maintenance when a motor scraper or pan scraper will do the work - well - and do its own compaction (on smaller jobs) ? It just doesn't make economic sense to me to have an excavator, ATD's, dozer on the fill and compaction equipment when a scraper will do the work just as well. The current trend towards large Ag tractors and multiple towed pan set ups just highlights the fact that fashion trends are alive and well in the earthmoving industry. It isn't a new idea either - LeTourneau was hitching two towed scrapers in tandem back in the 1930's which only goes to prove that what was old is new again. Rocks - OK, if you've got a lot of rocks to shift and the ground conditions are good put in rigid frame dumpers - they're cheaper to run than ATD's and you can get a bigger load in them. The largest ATD's only run out to 50 tons capacity where the rigid frames go out to 360+ tons - its a no-brainer. Operators - You can't find a good scraper operator - train them :Banghead I've seen some dunderheads make great scraper operators given the proper training. Not all good operators are boon, some have to be made and it is your responsibility to train them adequately. Also, hire people that have a bit of respect for the equipment you run. It will save you thousands. I'm not having a downer on ATD's - there is a place for them just like LGP dozers. All I'm saying is that generally, most cut to fill jobs of any consequence can be handled more economically by scrapers :stirthepot
I also forgot to mention one other thing about Scrapers......they're still the cheapest way to move dirt. They are their own hoe, truck, dozer and like WabcoMan said... they can kinda compact material. The site I am on as we speak has a small EW crew on it. They are running a Hitachi ZX350 a Cat 730 and a 735. They also have a 627E running around by itself, all of them are workin a cut and fill to build us an engineered fill to put the sewer/water on. That scraper is just toolin around site at no great speed and he's doin some serious damage to what they need to do. 2 trucks aren't keeping up to a tiny little 627.
I've picked the box up on a rock truck a dozen times...a couple 9/16ths to put the exahaust back together and get back at her. Its common enough even at Suncor they are starting to call it a near miss rather than an equipment damage. Not such a big deal for Sureway, AT and most developers aren't scrutinizing 3 years of WCB and reportable incident stats before they allow you to bid. I've also picked up 27's off their roofs, fished 57's out of the water, and been jack-knifed in a 27 so hard the stinger came through the hydraulic tank...Ask me about the time 2 57's tore the blade off a stuck D10 in Villeneuve. A pylon is dangerous in any seat, even the foremans.
where i work and the area where i work push-pulling is going strong, we use 637s and so does our competition, until it gets too rocky. they talk about going to hoes and trucks but for this application scrapers are the perfect tool, watching a good team push pulling is a pretty sight, having a good push partner is priceless.
One reason the trucks are gaining ground on the scrapers is that they can do any type of earthwork. Sand, no problem. Scrapers do sand, but if there is an odd rock in it, the apron can hang up on it and loose 1/3 of the load en route to the fill. It can be hard to get the rated load unless conditions are just right. Paddlewheels will fill every time, but unless it is sticky sand, you loose a lot en route also. The trucks haul a full load every time, and it stays in. Rock, no problem. Scrapers, it depends. Paddlewheels are helpless in rock. Yes, the 353 and the 639 could, but you would still pay a price, and you can just about count the ones left in the world on fingers and toes. Push pulls in rock is hard on tire wear, and with tires for 637's around 10K a pop, you don't want to play that game too long. General maintenance on any push pull in rock is huge as well. Cutting edges at over $1,000 a set, and in rock, they might not last the week. Single engine with push cats seems the best in rock, but you still have cutting edges to change, and tire problems, though not as many. Trucks, load it with a hoe. One machine with a bucket to work on and put teeth on. I have averaged between 100,000 to 300,000 yards per set of teeth on a 375 Cat, and that set costs just a bit more than ONE set of scraper edges. Scraper edges are usually done in by 50,000 yards.Keep the road clear and tire life will be at least 3 times what it is on a scraper, not to mention much cheaper. A set of 6 truck tires is about 35K, while a set of 4 scraper tires will run 40K, and last 1/2 or less. It don't matter how well your roads are kept, the scraper runs over the rocks as they are dumped. That is when most flats I see on well managed rock jobs occur. Trucks run on a good road, and shouldn't be driving onwhat they dumped till it is knocked down. Good dirt. Trucks haul it with no trouble. Here the scrapers will usually be more productibve, but also usually with a high operating cost. Scrapers can scale up easier by adding units. Trucks need to be matched to the loading tool, so you run 1 spread, or 2, but not in between. For a fixed location, you can select the perfect tool, but for a contractor, one job is dirt, the next rock, then sand, and back to rock again, etc. Trucks can go to any of them and perform. Much is made of the added support needed for trucks when the scraper fans are talking. Except in ideal conditions, you will usually find some dozers maintaining the cut, ripping, digging corners out, etc. The trucks have a big hoe, and the dozer from the fill comes by now and then to clean up. In the fill, the scrapers spread, but unless you are just stockpiling, there is usually a machine spreading and mixing. The truck spread has a dozer with it the same way. Now, for cost. 637 scraper hauls about 40 ton to 44 ton per load. Burns a bit over 20 gallons per hour doing it. My 40 ton Volvo's burn around 5 gallons per. Scraper ops are higher paid than truckies. The hoe burns fuel too, but so does the dozer maintaining the scraper cut. The parts bill for the truck spread is a pittance compared to the parts bill for the scraper spread. Same goes with the tires. Now, I am not saying scrapers are going out, or there is no place for them. There are jobs that they are absolutely the best tool. But, for a contractor who don't know what the next job will bring, the argument for trucks instead of scrapers is pretty strong. I have simplified things a bit, but I think you can get the picture.
The company I work for has about half and half, trucks/scrapers. I have never been on a job with them that didn't have some trucks and some scrapers. We almost always have scrapers and trucks working together in the borrow ponds. Around here you could not be competitive in the bidding of you only had trucks or only scrapers. Our 631's blow the doors off of our 740's every day, but you need the trucks for wet, rocky, hard to get in areas. Top soiling is a lot faster with 740's also. As far as push-pulling, almost nobody push-pulls around here any more. Everybody has 621's and 631's. I only know of a few that have push-pull set-ups and they hardly ever use them.
Lake County Grading in Gurnee? has 2 sets in their yard @ 137 and 21 in Northern Il